MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 26, 2016, 01:36:57 AM
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Kamar Baldwin was a three star ranked outside the top 150 by most services. His final four schools were Butler, Providence, Clemson, and Ole Miss. Good schools but hardly world beaters on the recruiting trail. The kid is getting starter's minutes as a freshman, hit a game winner against Northwestern, and is putting up impressive stats: 9.8 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg, 1.0 tpg, .656 FG%, .545 3P% (that's without today's 11 point, 3 rebound, 2 steal performance against a top 10 team).
When is the last time Marquette landed a three star kid that wasn't highly sought after but turned out to be a stud? Carter played admirably as a freshman but was over his head. Heldt and Anim are both projects. Dawson was magic....Jamal Ferguson was a dud. Derrick was a great person but not a great player. Mayo maybe fits the bill but he was also a space cadet. Reggie Smith didn't pan out. Mbao...ugh. Otule way outperformed expectations but was hardly a stud. Christopherson was great....for Iowa State. Pat Hazel was bad AND broke the rules. Roseboro ended up being a bench player for UMBC.
Davante might be the closest thing we have had to a diamond in the rough. Meanwhile, I feel like we lead the nation in overrated 4 star players. Junior Cadougan never lived up to the hype. Jeronne Maymon had a crazy dad. Erik Williams was terrible. Jamail Jones never panned out. Juan Anderson tried his best but that's about all you can say. Teve might have been great if was healthy. Jajuan is great now but certainly didn't come in top 30 as advertised. Sandy seemed to have zero confidence...or basketball IQ.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but it seems like we've had a lot of four star busts and very few three star gems to make up for it. We seem to be good at attracting top rated talent, but maybe not on evaluating that talent. The good news is that under the new regime, we haven't had any four star misses yet. Henry, Haanif, Howard, and Hauser (Hs for days!) all look like they deserved their lofty ratings. And the three star kids all have potential to develop into real contributors.
Its early, but Jamal Cain really strikes me as a player who could be our Kamar Baldwin. He's technically a four star, but he's outside the top 100 by most services. That kid can play and I'm hopeful he will come in and make an immediate impact. I also think John will outperform expectations. Maybe not be a stud, but I think he will be reliable off the bench. Eke strikes me as a project, but with as new as he is to the game, he could potentially take off.
Getting highly ranked players is important to long term success. But I think being able to identify the players who maybe don't have the rankings but have the game is the sign of a truly great recruiter. I'm hoping that proves true with the 2017 class.
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What about Jimmy Butler.
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Or Jae
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Dwyane Wade says hi.
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Dwyane Wade says hi.
You read my mind. Not sure JUCO All Americans are really three star equivalent.
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With regards to OP, I agree about finding diamonds, and finding players who pan out to or above their rankings. But with Baldwin, are we sure that's not just small sample size? Maybe, maybe not. But could be.
Further, let's give wojo his chance with recruits. The far majority you listed were under the last regime. We saw what someone like Bo could do with lower ranked players in a successful system. Perhaps wojo can have similar success recruiting to a system rather than rankings/talent.
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You read my mind. Not sure JUCO All Americans are really three star equivalent.
With Jae you're right - he was juco POY after being a 2* in high school. JFB, though, was only a juco Honorable Mention AA, so not in the top 30 in the juco ranks. He qualifies.
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http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2016/10/26/kamar-baldwin-picks-up-butlers-defense-quickly/92660314/
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da tree amigos hey
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Hauser: 135 Rivals, 3*
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/536
Baldwin: 123 Rivals, 3*
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/499
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-hauser-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamar-baldwin-1.html
According to one service, we have exactly what you're looking for on the current roster
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da tree amigos hey
Were all top 100 players. Lazar on the other hand would count
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da tree amigos hey
???
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What about Jimmy Butler.
For the purposes of this thread I was only talking about high school recruits. Transfers are different because you get to see them play against other college players. And like Lenny said, Jimmy was JUCO All American honorable mention. To me, that's a surer thing than a three star rating.
Or Jae
Transfer...and he was JUCO POY. Does not qualify.
Dwyane Wade says hi.
15 years and two coaches ago.
With regards to OP, I agree about finding diamonds, and finding players who pan out to or above their rankings. But with Baldwin, are we sure that's not just small sample size? Maybe, maybe not. But could be.
Further, let's give wojo his chance with recruits. The far majority you listed were under the last regime. We saw what someone like Bo could do with lower ranked players in a successful system. Perhaps wojo can have similar success recruiting to a system rather than rankings/talent.
Baldwin has only played 5 games, its true. This is mostly me going off the eye test. The kid looks like a stud and plays like a stud. He could cool off but I don't think so.
For your second paragraph, that was part of the point I was making. At least to date, Wojo doesn't have any recruiting misses from the high school ranks. He doesn't have enough makes to for sure call him a better talent evaluater than Buzz was but I am hopeful.
da tree amigos hey
Three VERY highly rated players. Do not qualify.
Hauser: 135 Rivals, 3*
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/536
Baldwin: 123 Rivals, 3*
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/499
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-hauser-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamar-baldwin-1.html
According to one service, we have exactly what you're looking for on the current roster
By one service. Hauser was a top 100 four star ranked above Baldwin by a majority of the services.
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Kamar Baldwin was a three star ranked outside the top 150 by most services. His final four schools were Butler, Providence, Clemson, and Ole Miss. Good schools but hardly world beaters on the recruiting trail. The kid is getting starter's minutes as a freshman, hit a game winner against Northwestern, and is putting up impressive stats: 9.8 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg, 1.0 tpg, .656 FG%, .545 3P% (that's without today's 11 point, 3 rebound, 2 steal performance against a top 10 team).
When is the last time Marquette landed a three star kid that wasn't highly sought after but turned out to be a stud?
Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...
We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.
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Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...
We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.
Did you watch the game? He played very well and was one of the keys to victory. The kid was super poised on offense and was very good defensively as well.
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Did you watch the game? He played very well and was one of the keys to victory. The kid was super poised on offense and was very good defensively as well.
He shot 37.5% eFG and had 3 turnovers, good for an ORtg of 81 (very poor).
Butler's key to victory was a 53.1% to 48.1% eFG advantage against a very young Arizona team.
If he was "one of the keys to victory" yesterday, then you're talking about a janitor's keychain.
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He shot 37.5% eFG and had 3 turnovers, good for an ORtg of 81 (very poor).
Butler's key to victory was a 53.1% to 48.1% eFG advantage against a very young Arizona team.
If he was "one of the keys to victory" yesterday, then you're talking about a janitor's keychain.
Obviously you didn't see the game.
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Obviously you didn't see the game.
Saw the game. He shot poorly & turned it over too often. Facts are facts.
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Saw the game. He shot poorly & turned it over too often. Facts are facts.
Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.
Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.
Free Throws Matter.
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15 years and two coaches ago.
You never said there was a statute of limitations.
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Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.
Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.
Free Throws Matter.
Shooting fouls do not count as a shot attempt. Believe me, I kept stats in high school.
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For the purposes of this thread I was only talking about high school recruits. Transfers are different because you get to see them play against other college players. And like Lenny said, Jimmy was JUCO All American honorable mention. To me, that's a surer thing than a three star rating.
I can agree on the transfer issue since you are entitled to define the rules however you wish. But as Lenny said, honorable mention places Jimmy outside the top 30 JUCO players. That's mid-major range, and outside the top 150. JFB definitely fits the bill (unless as you note, you are excluding JUCO's).
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Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.
Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.
Free Throws Matter.
A few things:
A) A player is not charged with a missed field goal attempt when fouled;
B) His FT% is reflected in his poor 81 ORtg; and
C) Not only was his offensively performance poor, he also used a lot of possessions (33% usage). He was a KEY cause of Butler's WORST offensive performance of the season.
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A few things:
A) A player is not charged with a missed field goal attempt when fouled;
B) His FT% is reflected in his poor 81 ORtg; and
C) Not only was his offensively performance poor, he also used a lot of possessions (33% usage). He was a KEY cause of Butler's WORST offensive performance of the season.
He will never understand what you are posting....
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Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.
Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.
Free Throws Matter.
You don't understand what JB says that FT% doesn't matter.
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You don't understand what JB says that FT% doesn't matter.
Butler hit their free throws under pressure down the stretch. They won the game.
I understand JB's thesis that free throw percentage not correlated to winning. That is a nice theory. Real life says you have to hit free throws when they count.
The reason we have a thread on Kamar Baldwin is because the person who started thread thought he played well. A number of other observers have pointed that out as well.
Real life, not theory, is why Butler beat Arizona in ostensibly what was a road game.
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Butler hit their free throws under pressure down the stretch. They won the game.
I understand JB's thesis that free throw percentage not correlated to winning. That is a nice theory. Real life says you have to hit free throws when they count.
The reason we have a thread on Kamar Baldwin is because the person who started thread thought he played well. A number of other observers have pointed that out as well.
Real life, not theory, is why Butler beat Arizona in ostensibly what was a road game.
No. The thread on Kamar is faulty in many ways.
But on free throws, no. It's not a theory. There isn't correlation between team FT% and winning. It just doesn't exist.
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I just wish we had gotten Kyle Washington
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Butler hit their free throws under pressure down the stretch. They won the game.
I understand JB's thesis that free throw percentage not correlated to winning. That is a nice theory. Real life says you have to hit free throws when they count.
So you actually don't understand it. Gotcha.
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This thread got away a little bit.
All I mean by the original premise was I would like to land a three or two star kid out of high school. who ends up playing more like a 5 or 4 star kid. I'm ecstatic with Howard and Hauser, not saying I would rather have Baldwin over either one. I am hopeful that Cain, John, Eke, or some combo of them will end up being that for us next year.
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Were all top 100 players. Lazar on the other hand would count
Lazar was a 4 star, 73rd nationally per Rivals. Crean beat out Calhoun to get him.
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/41025
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This thread got away a little bit.
All I mean by the original premise was I would like to land a three or two star kid out of high school. who ends up playing more like a 5 or 4 star kid. I'm ecstatic with Howard and Hauser, not saying I would rather have Baldwin over either one. I am hopeful that Cain, John, Eke, or some combo of them will end up being that for us next year.
I think Cain is probably the best bet. Kid seems to have a very complete game and could come in and be a difference maker. With Johnson and Reinhardt both graduating, his main competition at the 3/4 will be Cheatham, Hauser, and likely John. I don't think he'll necessarily start right away, but I think he can carve out a quick niche.
It's been awhile since we had someone come in at that level and really contribute right away. Since Wade a decade ago, the best true three-star freshmen we've had have probably been David Cubillan, Davante Gardner, Todd Mayo, and I suppose Traci Carter. Davante was incredibly limited due to conditioning while Traci was somewhat forced into action and performed acceptably but clearly wasn't the instant star you're describing.
Todd was good from the start and able to contribute on both ends. On a team with Jae and DJO, he didn't have to star, but he at least played like a 4-star. Cooby is probably the forgotten one because his sophomore and junior seasons were pretty disappointing, but he was really good as a freshman. Absolute sniper from outside, reliable as a backup point and three-point specialist off guard. If one of the incoming frosh next year could play at Cooby's freshman year level, I'd be ecstatic. Now that said, 2007 (Cooby) and 2012 (Mayo) are a long time ago. Including 2003 (Wade), it looks like we get one of those guys every 4-5 years. We're overdue on finding another.
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Kamar Baldwin is FIFTH in the country in steal percentage and has a 115.1 aggregate offensive rating as a freshman point guard.
He has simply been one of the best freshman in the country.
He would be without the offense, which is way above average, because he's already become one of the best on ball defenders in the country.
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Jamal Cain is also a top 100 guy in most ranking services so he probably wouldn't qualify for this discussion.
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I'll agree with Davante - he was never quite a name known outside of the faithful by the time he left, but he was a dependent, reliable guy who made the best out of what he had. Was not a big name get out of high school, but made an impact early in his career (thinking of you, Bucknell).
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Kamar Baldwin is FIFTH in the country in steal percentage and has a 115.1 aggregate offensive rating as a freshman point guard.
He has simply been one of the best freshman in the country.
Lol, you're nuts.
In his 2 games vs Top 50 Adjusted opps-- which are also his most recent two games -- his usage has been a fairly high 25%, but his Ortg has been a horrible 71
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I'm not sure if he was a three star but DG was under the radar coming into college.
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I'm not sure if he was a three star but DG was under the radar coming into college.
Mentioned him in the OP. He's the closest thing but I wouldn't have called him a stud freshman year. He only got about 9 minutes per game IIRC.
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Mentioned him in the OP. He's the closest thing but I wouldn't have called him a stud freshman year. He only got about 9 minutes per game IIRC.
Yup, Davante didn't really play nearly enough. He turned out to be very good for a three-star, but I'd maintain the only 2-3 star players that really outperformed expectations as freshmen here since Wade were Cooby and Mayo. The rest either didn't play enough to count (Gardner), needed more time to develop (Otule), or simply never really became much of anything at all (Hazel, Smith, Dawson, Derrick, Mbao, Ferguson...the list goes on).
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Yup, Davante didn't really play nearly enough. He turned out to be very good for a three-star, but I'd maintain the only 2-3 star players that really outperformed expectations as freshmen here since Wade were Cooby and Mayo. The rest either didn't play enough to count (Gardner), needed more time to develop (Otule), or simply never really became much of anything at all (Hazel, Smith, Dawson, Derrick, Mbao, Ferguson...the list goes on).
Whoa. Do not be so disrespectful of Magic.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/magic.gif)
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Yup, Davante didn't really play nearly enough. He turned out to be very good for a three-star, but I'd maintain the only 2-3 star players that really outperformed expectations as freshmen here since Wade were Cooby and Mayo. The rest either didn't play enough to count (Gardner), needed more time to develop (Otule), or simply never really became much of anything at all (Hazel, Smith, Dawson, Derrick, Mbao, Ferguson...the list goes on).
Otule got plenty of time to develop ;)
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Lazar was a 4 star, 73rd nationally per Rivals. Crean beat out Calhoun to get him.
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/41025
That was only after a year of prep school. My understanding is he had no D1 offers after regular High School.
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Kamar Baldwin with another stinker, this time against Central Arkansas. Markus' brother Jordan w/a strong game against young Kamar.
Season to date..
Kamar Baldwin - 108 ORtg, 20% usage, 58.3% eFG%, 53% minutes
Markus Howard - 113 ORtg, 21% usage, 64.5% eFG%, 42% minutes
Sam Hauser - 130 ORtg, 13% usage, 71.6% eFG%, 55% minutes
Butler Wants Our Markus 2 NBA & Sam Hauser?
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Kamar Baldwin with yet another stinker as Butler falls tonight to I4State. Kamar with 4 turnovers in 24 minutes; posted a 54 ORtg
Season to date...
Kamar Baldwin - 101 ORtg, 20% usage, 57.5% eFG%, 54% minutes
Markus Howard - 123 ORtg, 21% usage, 65.4% eFG%, 45% minutes
Sam Hauser - 141 ORtg, 14% usage, 78.7% eFG%, 58% minutes
Kamar's ORtg would look like crap - easily the team's second worst, behind KR. Lotsa steals though!
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Kamar Baldwin with yet another stinker as Butler falls tonight to I4State. Kamar with 4 turnovers in 24 minutes; posted a 54 ORtg
Season to date...
Kamar Baldwin - 101 ORtg, 20% usage, 57.5% eFG%, 54% minutes
Markus Howard - 123 ORtg, 21% usage, 65.4% eFG%, 45% minutes
Sam Hauser - 141 ORtg, 14% usage, 78.7% eFG%, 58% minutes
Kamar's ORtg would look like crap - easily the team's second worst, behind KR. Lotsa steals though!
Because I started a thread where I said I wanted a three star player to come in and play like a four star player (so MH and Doogie have nothing to do with the topic) and that I was hopeful that one of our three star players from next year's class are going to do that, are we going to have to hear about every time Kamar Baldwin has a bad game?
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Because I started a thread where I said I wanted a three star player to come in and play like a four star player (so MH and Doogie have nothing to do with the topic) and that I was hopeful that one of our three star players from next year's class are going to do that, are we going to have to hear about every time Kamar Baldwin has a bad game?
To be fair, TAMU, the title of the topic (chosen by you) was "I Want Our Kamar Baldwin".
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To be fair, TAMU, the title of the topic (chosen by you) was "I Want Our Kamar Baldwin".
And I stand by it. I want a three star who makes an immediate impact and plays much better than his ranking would have led you to believe. Kamar Baldwin is still that.
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And I stand by it. I want a three star who makes an immediate impact and plays much better than his ranking would have led you to believe. Kamar Baldwin is still that.
I agree with this analysis.
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Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...
We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.
2016-17:
Kamar Baldwin: 106.3 ORtg; 19.3% usage; 55.7% eFG%; 17.2% TO rate
M2N: 118.6; 25.4%; 65.8%; 20.5%
Sam: 127.8; 13.6%; 62.7%; 10.8%
2017-18:
Kamar Badlwin: 91.7; 25.4%%; 45.9%; 18.7%
M2N: 128.3; 27.4%; 61.8%; 10.2%
Sam: 125.3; 19.2%; 63.0%; 14.6%
hi
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2016-17:
Kamar Baldwin: 106.3 ORtg; 19.3% usage; 55.7% eFG%; 17.2% TO rate
M2N: 118.6; 25.4%; 65.8%; 20.5%
Sam: 127.8; 13.6%; 62.7%; 10.8%
2017-18:
Kamar Badlwin: 91.7; 25.4%%; 45.9%; 18.7%
M2N: 128.3; 27.4%; 61.8%; 10.2%
Sam: 125.3; 19.2%; 63.0%; 14.6%
hi
Kamar is averaging 13.4 ppg 4.1 rebound and 2.6 assists a game. In the real world of actual production he is doing a good job. No one ever said he was more effective than Markus or Sam.
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Kamar is averaging 13.4 ppg 4.1 rebound and 2.6 assists a game. In the real world of actual production he is doing a good job.
Okie. And against good comp he's been brutal.
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2017/12/16/insider-another-poor-start-dooms-butler-loss-purdue/940895001/
"Also, Butler is not so strong that it can compensate for what might have been Kamar Baldwin’s worst college game. Until four baskets in the closing 5 ½ minutes, he shot 1-of-12 from the field. He finished 5-of-19 with 13 points, zero assists and five turnovers."
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Any y’all seen this 6’9” freshman cat at Washington HS who verballed ta ASU tadey, hey?
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Any y’all seen this 6’9” freshman cat at Washington HS who verballed ta ASU tadey, hey?
Wonder if he follows Hurley to Duke, ai’na?
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Goes by da name, Michael Foster, hey?
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Hell, Hurley may be coachin’ both Foster and Herro at Kentucky bye den, assumin’ Herro isn’t preoccupied startin’ four da Lakers, hey?
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Any y’all seen this 6’9” freshman cat at Washington HS who verballed ta ASU tadey, hey?
Maybe he will change his mind by Senior year.
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Fercockt and ferdrayt, ai na?
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Kamar is averaging 13.4 ppg 4.1 rebound and 2.6 assists a game. In the real world of actual production he is doing a good job. No one ever said he was more effective than Markus or Sam.
This is a perfect example of why he's NOT doing a good job. Sam is averaging more points, rebounds, and nearly identical assists but with 6.2% lower usage and fewer shots. Baldwin scores less despite taking over 3 more shots per game.
More points, more rebounds, nearly identical minutes, fewer shots.
And don't get me started on Markus. Sure, he takes 1.6 more shots per game, but scores 9.4 ppg more with those 1.6 shots.
Production without perspective is meaningless.
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This is a perfect example of why he's NOT doing a good job. Sam is averaging more points, rebounds, and nearly identical assists but with 6.2% lower usage and fewer shots. Baldwin scores less despite taking over 3 more shots per game.
More points, more rebounds, nearly identical minutes, fewer shots.
And don't get me started on Markus. Sure, he takes 1.6 more shots per game, but scores 9.4 ppg more with those 1.6 shots.
Production without perspective is meaningless.
I've played enough NBA jams to know that Markus is shooting from the 5pt circle and Baldwin is shooting from the 3 point line more. Hence the large increase in points from those 1.6 shots.
Can't fool me Brew and JB.
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I've played enough NBA jams to know that Markus is shooting from the 5pt circle and Baldwin is shooting from the 3 point line more. Hence the large increase in points from those 1.6 shots.
Can't fool me Brew and JB.
Not sure you really understand the term production lol
Edit no idea why this quote you
Clearly was quoting Herman
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This is a perfect example of why he's NOT doing a good job. Sam is averaging more points, rebounds, and nearly identical assists but with 6.2% lower usage and fewer shots. Baldwin scores less despite taking over 3 more shots per game.
More points, more rebounds, nearly identical minutes, fewer shots.
And don't get me started on Markus. Sure, he takes 1.6 more shots per game, but scores 9.4 ppg more with those 1.6 shots.
Production without perspective is meaningless.
You didn't read the whole post. I said no one says Kamar Baldwin is more efficient than Sam and Markus. He is having a good year none the less.
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This is a perfect example of why he's NOT doing a good job. Sam is averaging more points, rebounds, and nearly identical assists but with 6.2% lower usage and fewer shots. Baldwin scores less despite taking over 3 more shots per game.
More points, more rebounds, nearly identical minutes, fewer shots.
And don't get me started on Markus. Sure, he takes 1.6 more shots per game, but scores 9.4 ppg more with those 1.6 shots.
Production without perspective is meaningless.
Brew I like your posts here but your yahoo instant messenger "thingy" is blocking what you have to say. Perhaps reducing the font size might help.
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You didn't read the whole post. I said no one says Kamar Baldwin is more efficient than Sam and Markus. He is having a good year none the less.
Remember last year when we were worried about Haanif? Well Baldwin is shooting worse than Haanif did, and is assisting and turning it over at about the same rate. And he's being used more.
He's plateaued a bit and needs to take that next step.
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Remember last year when we were worried about Haanif? Well Baldwin is shooting worse than Haanif did, and is assisting and turning it over at about the same rate. And he's being used more.
He's plateaued a bit and needs to take that next step.
In other words, he is a three star.
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You didn't read the whole post. I said no one says Kamar Baldwin is more efficient than Sam and Markus. He is having a good year none the less.
No, he's not. His usage rate is too high for an efficiency that low. Look at their three losses and Baldwin's shooting percentages:
2PFG: 13/40 (32.5%)
3PFG: 4/15 (26.7%)
FGs: 17/55 (30.9%)
eFG%: 34.5%
He is the main reason for those losses. He takes too many shots and does so poorly. He led the team in attempts in 2/3 losses and in total attempts in losses. Even in wins, he hasn't had a 100+ ORtg against any top-100 teams. He is having a bad year, and a terrible year against good teams, but he keeps shooting. That's partially on him and partially on the staff.
The bigger the game, the more he shoots, and the worse Butler does. But please, let him keep shooting, because it makes our Butler sweep that much more likely.
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In other words, he is a three star.
Haha. Exactly.
Perhaps his stats are consistent with what one would expect from a 3 star recruit.
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As I've said in this thread repeatedly, I never said I wanted Baldwin over Sam or Markus, so the comparisons are irrelevant.
My premise is that I wanted a three star player who no one expects to produce much as a freshmen to come in and play much better than you would expect in his first season. Which is what Kamar Baldwin was last season. He was a starter for a top 25 team and a consensus all Big East freshman despite a composite rating below 150.
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FWIW, Baldwin is all over "NBA Draft Twitter" as a prospect.
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FWIW, Baldwin is all over "NBA Draft Twitter" as a prospect.
Odd
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No, he's not. His usage rate is too high for an efficiency that low. Look at their three losses and Baldwin's shooting percentages:
2PFG: 13/40 (32.5%)
3PFG: 4/15 (26.7%)
FGs: 17/55 (30.9%)
eFG%: 34.5%
He is the main reason for those losses. He takes too many shots and does so poorly. He led the team in attempts in 2/3 losses and in total attempts in losses. Even in wins, he hasn't had a 100+ ORtg against any top-100 teams. He is having a bad year, and a terrible year against good teams, but he keeps shooting. That's partially on him and partially on the staff.
The bigger the game, the more he shoots, and the worse Butler does. But please, let him keep shooting, because it makes our Butler sweep that much more likely.
Yeah he's... not very good this year. At all. If he was on MU he'd be everyone's least favorite player, with people on here begging him not to shoot.
The Butler sweep I feel is the most realistic of the mid-tier teams, almost needs to happen to have a good tourney shot. Keep shooting Kamar!
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MU has a former two-star recruit averaging 21 ppg.
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All's I know is that whatever shytty shyte Baldwin is doing this season, I hope he does it even worse on Jan. 12 and Jan. 31. Especially the first game because it's the only MU game I'll be attending this season.
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How’s Big Chris doing in the NBA?
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How’s Big Chris doing in the NBA?
;D
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MU has a former two-star recruit averaging 21 ppg.
True. I was more commenting on our ability to pick a gem out of the high school ranks. The closest I can think of is big Sheesh but even he was an end of the bench player as a freshman
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My premise is that I wanted a three star player who no one expects to produce much as a freshmen to come in and play much better than you would expect in his first season. Which is what Kamar Baldwin was last season. He was a starter for a top 25 team and a consensus all Big East freshman despite a composite rating below 150.
It's two different things. I agree about wanting that instant contributor as a lightly regarded freshman. I suspect we might have one this year if Greg Elliott needed to play 20+ mpg.
But anyone arguing Baldwin has been a net positive for Butler this year is out of their damn minds. He's a terrible player for them this year and one of the driving forces behind every one of their losses. Really glad he's not playing for us.
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It's two different things. I agree about wanting that instant contributor as a lightly regarded freshman. I suspect we might have one this year if Greg Elliott needed to play 20+ mpg.
But anyone arguing Baldwin has been a net positive for Butler this year is out of their damn minds. He's a terrible player for them this year and one of the driving forces behind every one of their losses. Really glad he's not playing for us.
I understand your venom for Baldwin, however It should be noted the Purdue coach felt that going into the game with Butler containment of Kamar was essential to victory. So at least that one guy has some respect for Kamar.
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Let us remember...
At the time of the OP in this thread.... (through games of Nov 25, 2016)...
Kamar Baldwin: 121.8 ORtg; 19% usage; 67.5% eFG%; 18.7% TO rate; 55% minutes played
Markus Howard: 100.4 ORtg; 17% usage; 61.1% eFG%; 29.8% TO rate; 37% minutes played
;D
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I understand your venom for Baldwin, however It should be noted the Purdue coach felt that going into the game with Butler containment of Kamar was essential to victory. So at least that one guy has some respect for Kamar.
It shouldn't be noted. He was terrible in that game. Maybe if he didn't shoot 19 times with a 28.9 eFG%, they would've been competitive.
Purdue did what teams do to Butler. Let Baldwin shoot. And they won with that strategy.
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Let us remember...
At the time of the OP in this thread.... (through games of Nov 25, 2016)...
Kamar Baldwin: 121.8 ORtg; 19% usage; 67.5% eFG%; 18.7% TO rate; 55% minutes played
Markus Howard: 100.4 ORtg; 17% usage; 61.1% eFG%; 29.8% TO rate; 37% minutes played
;D
Let us also remember at the time of the OP in this thread.... (through games of Nov 25, 2016)...
Markus Howard: 4-star Top 100 recruit
Kamar Baldwin: 3-star Top 200 recruit
This thread has never been about Markus Howard. He does not meet the pre-requisites, he is overqualified.
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Let us also remember at the time of the OP in this thread.... (through games of Nov 25, 2016)...
Markus Howard: 4-star Top 100 recruit
Kamar Baldwin: 3-star Top 200 recruit
This thread has never been about Markus Howard. He does not meet the pre-requisites, he is overqualified.
Wait a second... what are the “pre-requisites”? Certainly not 4-star, right?
Per the OP of this thread, “Its early, but Jamal Cain really strikes me as a player who could be our Kamar Baldwin. He's technically a four star”
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Wait a second... what are the “pre-requisites”? Certainly not 4-star, right?
Per the OP of this thread, “Its early, but Jamal Cain really strikes me as a player who could be our Kamar Baldwin. He's technically a four star”
Finish the quote:
"but he's outside the top 100 by most services"
And by the time the season ended I'm pretty sure he was outside the top 100 in every service and had a 3 star composite ranking.
Markus had literally nothing to do with my point. I can love having Markus and want a three-star gem.
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Finish the quote:
"but he's outside the top 100 by most services"
And by the time the season ended I'm pretty sure he was outside the top 100 in every service and had a 3 star composite ranking.
Markus had literally nothing to do with my point. I can love having Markus and want a three-star gem.
Cain was a 4 star on 247 internal, Rivals and ESPN. Ranked in the Top 100 on 247 internal (#98) and Rivals (#80).
247 Composite he was a 3 star and #143.
So 3/4 of the sites they used had him as a 4 star. Not sure what Scout had him as since their rankings are blown away now but it must've been low.
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I'd rather get a 4 star who plays like a 4 star than a 3 star who plays like a 3 star.
But maybe that's just me....
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Well said. You are not alone.
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I'd rather get a 4 star who plays like a 4 star than a 3 star who plays like a 3 star.
But maybe that's just me....
What about a 3 star who plays like a 5 star? Or would you rather a 5 star who plays like a four star?
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Star rating no matta.
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I want a team of NRs. Or a team of Ners.
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I want a team of NRs. Or a team of Ners.
Just follow Chicago State!
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I want a team of NRs. Or a team of Ners.
Yo, T-Bone Ners was a one and done but he blew a knee going for a dunk during practice (HS that is)
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It's two different things. I agree about wanting that instant contributor as a lightly regarded freshman. I suspect we might have one this year if Greg Elliott needed to play 20+ mpg.
But anyone arguing Baldwin has been a net positive for Butler this year is out of their damn minds. He's a terrible player for them this year and one of the driving forces behind every one of their losses. Really glad he's not playing for us.
Kamar Baldwin Stats last two games both wins:
Georgetown 31 points 5 rebounds 1 assist 2 blocks 3 steals 1 TO
Villanova 19 points 9 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 3 TO
Season average 14.5 4.8 boards 3.0 assists 2 steals 2.4 TO
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(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder628/500x/50981628.jpg)
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Kamar Baldwin Stats last two games both wins:
Georgetown 31 points 5 rebounds 1 assist 2 blocks 3 steals 1 TO
Villanova 19 points 9 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 3 TO
Season average 14.5 4.8 boards 3.0 assists 2 steals 2.4 TO
Ortg 98........ 30% on 3s.....efg 47%.......high usage....not efficient
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Kamar Baldwin Stats last two games both wins:
Georgetown 31 points 5 rebounds 1 assist 2 blocks 3 steals 1 TO
Villanova 19 points 9 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 3 TO
Season average 14.5 4.8 boards 3.0 assists 2 steals 2.4 TO
He has his first two good games of the year and you act like it's a revelation. Look, I get it, you don't have a good grasp of how to interpret statistics, but you don't have to repeatedly broadcast it to make yourself look bad.
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The three star had a 132 Orating last night, on 8-14 shooting, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, and only 1 turn.
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He's been much better since the start of conference play, no doubt about it.
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Season:
Kamar - 101.2 ORtg, 24.8% usage, 48.3% eFG%. Blistering 26/82 for 31.7% from deep; sub 50% 2FG%
M2N - 122.0, 28.5% usage; 59.0% eFG%
Vs. Tier A+B:
Kamar - 96.6, 26.6%, 44.4%, 13.7% to%
M2N - 119.8, 29.8%, 58.5%, 11.9% to%
crown him
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Season:
Kamar - 101.2 ORtg, 24.8% usage, 48.3% eFG%. Blistering 26/82 for 31.7% from deep; sub 50% 2FG%
M2N - 122.0, 28.5% usage; 59.0% eFG%
Vs. Tier A+B:
Kamar - 96.6, 26.6%, 44.4%, 13.7% to%
M2N - 119.8, 29.8%, 58.5%, 11.9% to%
crown him
Marquette Defense: "We make 3 Stars into 5 Stars"
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Season:
Kamar - 101.2 ORtg, 24.8% usage, 48.3% eFG%. Blistering 26/82 for 31.7% from deep; sub 50% 2FG%
M2N - 122.0, 28.5% usage; 59.0% eFG%
Vs. Tier A+B:
Kamar - 96.6, 26.6%, 44.4%, 13.7% to%
M2N - 119.8, 29.8%, 58.5%, 11.9% to%
crown him
Unfortunately for us, the game is played on both ends. Have to tip the cap to Baldwin, he outplayed Markus last night, and made it extremely difficult for both Markus and Rowsey to get their 3-ball off.
That aside, in no way if hypothetically offered the opportunity to trade Markus for Baldwin, would I.
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Season:
Kamar - 101.2 ORtg, 24.8% usage, 48.3% eFG%. Blistering 26/82 for 31.7% from deep; sub 50% 2FG%
M2N - 122.0, 28.5% usage; 59.0% eFG%
Vs. Tier A+B:
Kamar - 96.6, 26.6%, 44.4%, 13.7% to%
M2N - 119.8, 29.8%, 58.5%, 11.9% to%
crown him
Again, Markus had nothing to do with the OP. I want both Markus and a 3 star who plays as well as Baldwin does.
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Again, Markus had nothing to do with the OP. I want both Markus and a 3 star who plays as well as Baldwin does.
I agree with this analysis.
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Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...
We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.
Baldwin continues to be overrated by the masses. Weird.
6'1" dude who can't shoot but takes tons of shots... not a great recipe.
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Baldwin continues to be overrated by the masses. Weird.
6'1" dude who can't shoot but takes tons of shots... not a great recipe.
Why you hoopaloopin?
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After Butler was destroyed by Florida, 77-43, Baldwin's eFG% stands at an ugly 45.1%. He's 15/53 for 28.3% from behind the 3-point line.
98 ORtg while carrying a usage of 29% is especially interesting when looking at the numbers for his teammate and an otherwise healthy offense.
Glad we got our guys and not Baldwin.
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Id take our guys and Kamar Baldwin
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We had our Kamar Baldwin tonight! 36.7% eFG% and 4 turnovers. (oh, two boards and assist, daps!)
#thankUnext
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I would love a backcourt of Howard and Baldwin, you wouldn't?
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I would love a backcourt of Howard and Baldwin, you wouldn't?
Not if Baldwin thinks he’s the guy
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Sacar outplayed him!
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I would love a backcourt of Howard and Baldwin, you wouldn't?
we had that last year