Racist Logos - Indians vs. Fighting Irish

[wadesworld]

No kidding.  You asked about the logo though.  The nickname is fine.

The logo depicts the nickname.  So I guess I don't see where the difference between the Indian's Chief Wahoo and the Fighting Irish's leprechaun is.  Both are inaccurate depictions of a group of people.

This:



to depict an Irish person is just as inaccurate of a representation as this:



is to depict an Indian person.

If Notre Dame was the "Fighting Leprechauns" then sure, accurate representation of some mythical being.  But their nickname is the Fighting Irish.

I'm not even trying to argue just to argue.  I genuinely don't see the difference between what Notre Dame does with their "Irish" logo and what Cleveland does with their "Indians" logo.  Both use caricatures that inaccurately depict a large group of human beings.  If one is racist, why is the other not?

[GGGG]

The ND logo is a drawing of a leprechaun.  It isn't meant to be a depiction of an actual human being who is Irish but something mythical.

The Cleveland logo is meant to be a depiction of an actual Native American.  And because of that, it is insulting.  And the Indians even acknowledged that earlier this year.

http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2016/04/03/Cleveland-Indians-move-away-from-Chief-Wahoo-logo/8481459657070/

However they haven't eliminated it.  And that really is a shame.

Furthermore, Irish Americans don't seem to have a problem with the ND logo.  Native Americans have a problem with Chief Wahoo.  That alone should indicate that one is a problem, and the other isn't.   

[Pakuni]

Well, we can start with the fact Irish isn't a race.

Then we can go the fact that Notre Dame's mascot is not, and never was, intended to depict a person of Irish descent, but rather a fictional character of Irish lore.

And finally, we can conclude with the fact caricatures of native peoples were historically used in this country to justify and encourage something arguably close to genocide. And while there was a brief period of time where Irish immigrants faced discrimination in the U.S., it's hardly comparable. Unless I missed out on the mass murders and forced relocations of my Irish ancestors.

[NotBuzzWilliams]

They're not even from India!

[wadesworld]

Well, we can start with the fact Irish isn't a race.

Then we can go the fact that Notre Dame's mascot is not, and never was, intended to depict a person of Irish descent, but rather a fictional character of Irish lore.

And finally, we can conclude with the fact caricatures of native peoples were historically used in this country to justify and encourage something arguably close to genocide. And while there was a brief period of time where Irish immigrants faced discrimination in the U.S., it's hardly comparable. Unless I missed out on the mass murders and forced relocations of my Irish ancestors.

So if something offensive or derogatory is coming from a group of people that have been oppressed then it's not racist?  If an African-American person calls a Caucasian a "Cracker" (or whatever derogatory term you want to choose) it's not a racist remark because of the history of slavery in this country?  I don't buy that, but some may I guess.

[GGGG]

So if something offensive or derogatory is coming from a group of people that have been oppressed then it's not racist?  If an African-American person calls a Caucasian a "Cracker" (or whatever derogatory term you want to choose) it's not a racist remark because of the history of slavery in this country?  I don't buy that, but some may I guess.

He didn't say that.

[Pakuni]

So if something offensive or derogatory is coming from a group of people that have been oppressed then it's not racist?  If an African-American person calls a Caucasian a "Cracker" (or whatever derogatory term you want to choose) it's not a racist remark because of the history of slavery in this country?  I don't buy that, but some may I guess.

Uhhh, no, that's nowhere close to what I wrote.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

The inaccurate and unflattering portrayals of leprechauns must stop immediately!!!

[wadesworld]

He didn't say that.

Uhhh, no, that's nowhere close to what I wrote.

Then why include, "And while there was a brief period of time where Irish immigrants faced discrimination in the U.S., it's hardly comparable. Unless I missed out on the mass murders and forced relocations of my Irish ancestors?"  If the oppression of one group of people over another has nothing to do with whether or not something can be racist against the less oppressed group of people, why even include it in the discussion?

[wadesworld]

The inaccurate and unflattering portrayals of leprechauns must stop immediately!!!

I must be confused.  Notre Dame changed their nickname to the Fighting Leprechauns now?  Huh, must've been all the uproar over the inaccurate caricature drawing of the Irish that forced this change.  Good for them.  No need to be so racist with the logo.

[Galway Eagle]

Well, we can start with the fact Irish isn't a race.

Then we can go the fact that Notre Dame's mascot is not, and never was, intended to depict a person of Irish descent, but rather a fictional character of Irish lore.

And finally, we can conclude with the fact caricatures of native peoples were historically used in this country to justify and encourage something arguably close to genocide. And while there was a brief period of time where Irish immigrants faced discrimination in the U.S., it's hardly comparable. Unless I missed out on the mass murders and forced relocations of my Irish ancestors.

In America or in general? Because if you're unaware of mass murders and forced relocations of irish ancestors then yes you do need to brush up on your Irish history. 

[MerrittsMustache]

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I must be confused.  Notre Dame changed their nickname to the Fighting Leprechauns now?  Huh, must've been all the uproar over the inaccurate caricature drawing of the Irish that forced this change.  Good for them.  No need to be so racist with the logo.

[Pakuni]

Then why include, "And while there was a brief period of time where Irish immigrants faced discrimination in the U.S., it's hardly comparable. Unless I missed out on the mass murders and forced relocations of my Irish ancestors?"  If the oppression of one group of people over another has nothing to do with whether or not something can be racist against the less oppressed group of people, why even include it in the discussion?

Because in pointing out the way such caricatures were used to justify the oppression of native people, I was anticipating the argument about discrimination against Irish immigrants, and preemptively pointing out how the circumstances were not comparable.

In your haste, you somehow took that to mean I was suggesting racism by some groups is acceptable. You were very wrong.

[Pakuni]

In America or in general? Because if you're unaware of mass murders and forced relocations of irish ancestors then yes you do need to brush up on your Irish history.

Read the full paragraph, maybe.

[Galway Eagle]

Hate that stupid mascot, dislike the copious amounts of 4th 5th or 6th plus generation Irish americans who worship ND just because they're the fighting Irish. They're about as Irish as we were native american when we were the warriors.

[Galway Eagle]

Read the full paragraph, maybe.

Touche'

[GGGG]

I must be confused.  Notre Dame changed their nickname to the Fighting Leprechauns now?  Huh, must've been all the uproar over the inaccurate caricature drawing of the Irish that forced this change.  Good for them.  No need to be so racist with the logo.

One more time.

We aren't discussing the nicknames.  We are discussing the logos. 

"Fighting Irish" is a nickname.  The logo is a leprechaun.  It isn't a human being with Irish stereotypes.  It is a mythical creature.

"Indians" is a nickname.  The logo IS a picture of a human being with Native American stereotypes. 

If you can't tell the fundamental difference between the two, you are being intentionally obtuse.

[Pakuni]

I must be confused.  Notre Dame changed their nickname to the Fighting Leprechauns now?  Huh, must've been all the uproar over the inaccurate caricature drawing of the Irish that forced this change.  Good for them.  No need to be so racist with the logo.

You do realize, of course, that a mascot and a nickname aren't always synonymous.
Like, Georgtown's bulldog isn't really a Hoya. And UNC's ram mascot isn't really a Tarheel.
And Notre Dame's leprechaun isn't really an Irish human being.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

And finally, we can conclude with the fact caricatures of native peoples were historically used in this country to justify and encourage something arguably close to genocide.

I have heard this argument often but I am unfamiliar with examples or studies on it.  I will admit I am naive on this and I really am looking for examples to better educate myself.

Chief Wahoo (who really isn't a chief in the first place) looks like a silly cartoon to me.  But I am only a trace amount Native American so I am far from an authority to make a definitive statement about it not being racist.

The name "Chief Wahoo" is pretty cringe worthy and I'd say outright demeaning.  So I can agree with calling that racist.  But on the other hand, the name "Chief Wahoo" came from Cleveland pop culture and not from baseball team directly.  Chief Wahoo was a cartoon character that appeared on the front page of a newspaper depicting the result of the previous day's game.  Though since the character appeared physically beaten after a loss, I see that tie as another pointing in the negative direction.

I don't think the logo honors any people in any way.  At best it is a silly cartoon.  I need a little bit more self education to call it racist but I can understand why people find the logo offensive.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

I must be confused.  Notre Dame changed their nickname to the Fighting Leprechauns now?  Huh, must've been all the uproar over the inaccurate caricature drawing of the Irish that forced this change.  Good for them.  No need to be so racist with the logo.

Imagine how offended the Midshipmen of the Naval Academy must feel.  This whole time, wades thought they were actual goats!

[GGGG]

Imagine how offended the Midshipmen of the Naval Academy must feel.  This whole time, wades thought they were actual goats!

Thank you.  I was trying in vain to come up with a parallel and you nailed it.

[wadesworld]

So if the Indians used this:



as their logo it would somehow be acceptable and not at all offensive because there are actual Indians out there that dress like this?  What about Indians who don't dress like that at all?  Is the logo offensive to them?

I don't get it.  It's a sports logo.  Anybody who confuses it with trying to be an accurate representation of whatever it may be (a chicken looking furry thing for a Golden Eagle, a leprechaun for an Irish person, whatever you'd call Bango for a buck, etc.) I guess has the right to be offended if they would like to be.

[GGGG]

I don't get it.

Obviously.

[wadesworld]

I have heard this argument often but I am unfamiliar with examples or studies on it.  I will admit I am naive on this and I really am looking for examples to better educate myself.

Chief Wahoo (who really isn't a chief in the first place) looks like a silly cartoon to me.  But I am only a trace amount Native American so I am far from an authority to make a definitive statement about it not being racist.

The name "Chief Wahoo" is pretty cringe worthy and I'd say outright demeaning.  So I can agree with calling that racist.  But on the other hand, the name "Chief Wahoo" came from Cleveland pop culture and not from baseball team directly.  Chief Wahoo was a cartoon character that appeared on the front page of a newspaper depicting the result of the previous day's game.  Though since the character appeared physically beaten after a loss, I see that tie as another pointing in the negative direction.

I don't think the logo honors any people in any way.  At best it is a silly cartoon.  I need a little bit more self education to call it racist but I can understand why people find the logo offensive.

Thanks for the background.  So, essentially, using "Chief Wahoo" is exactly the same as using a leprechaun for the "Fighting Irish."  Not meant to depict an actual being, something from the history of the team and city, etc.