What on earth am I missing?

[JakeBarnes]

Chico's


Agree on everything with exception of ONE great recruiting class. It was a very good one but the foundation of what made that class great likely is gone. Of the remaining three HC has a chance to be an upper end D1 player, Carter a backup/role player and incomplete at best on kid from MN.

Haani and Traci strongly disagree with you. As do most people with eyes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nothing.  You've pretty much nailed it.  Too much impatience in today's world.

I agree with Pakuni and Hards in the same thread.   We might want to lock this one up, pin it to the top for posterity sake.

[Galway Eagle]

Whoever said Carter is a backup is nuts, per statistics he had 3rd best PG season at Marquette in last 15 years.

He will grow and improve...not sure he will finish as best ever but he will be a very good PG at MU barring injury

In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

Haani and Traci strongly disagree with you. As do most people with eyes.

He also forgot Matt Heldt lol

[Big Papi]

Oh please....kids commit to a school mostly because of the coach and the relationship they have with the recruiter.  So a new coach couldn't convince a couple of recruits he had no relationship to play?  Give me a break.

We also improved in the Big East conference, you somehow left that off.

The players Buzz left us, PG deficient which is the MOST important position in college basketball.  I don't think you understand the level of talent Buzz left behind.  In terms of the great recruits that Wojo didn't convince to come here, one averaged 1.7 points per game this year....for a guy named Buzz.

Sorry, those minutes played by HE are not for nothing.  We landed a very good recruit, that's a good thing for a coach to be able to say to land future very good recruits.  Let me guess, if HE didn't play a bunch of minutes you would have given Wojo a pass?  LOL

I didn't leave anything off, I said we improved the second year.  A 4-1 record against Depaul and St. Johns should be applauded and 0-7 against the top 3 in games that were more blowouts than not should be ignored.  I know, I know, we beat Providence twice.  Definitely our two best conference wins of the year.   

WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

I understand that Buzz left JJJ, Fisher and Duane and they were 3 of our top 5 players.  All 3 are extremely talented.  Deonte Burton was extremely talented.  Sandy Cohen is extremely talented.  I get it, it wasn't ideal what he left behind but it wasn't awful like you want to believe. 

Finally I was referencing Marial Shayok and Ahmed Hill.  Shayok is getting minutes for number 1 seed Virginia and Hill unfortunately tore his patella tendon and redshirted this year.  WOJO would have been thrilled to have kept both of them.  I don't blame him just saying.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wojo's game plans were totally uncreative at best. he never threw any wrinkles at teams, very rarely changed things up in game...does he even draw up plays on the sidelines during time outs?? Whenever they would show "in the huddle" with Wojo, all you'd hear him say was "keep fighting, keep fighting etc", you never saw him with a clipboard actually designing plays. Buzz and TC always always threw a wrinkle into things depending on the opponent...Two examples that stood out to me were when TC put Chris Grimm on Alando Tucker in a game vs UW at the BC...stroke of genius, it worked out beautifully. Then who will ever forget Buzz putting Jimmy Butler on Tu Holloway in the NCAA tourney vs. Xavier in 2011...shut him down...ball game.

Wojo has done NONE of that. heck, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he didn't at least switch into a zone vs. Nova at the BC, they were getting killed off the dribble...what would t hurt to try it...couldn't have been any worse.

His offense...Henry spent way to much time out at the top of the key setting picks etc. That's not how a dominate big should be utilized...His ass should have been under the basket and stayed there. he never changed that up during the year either. I just see a whole lot of nothing from him right now...This is a coach that often times drew up plays for Coach K(Coach K himself said that), coached the US national team, and was highly regarded...he's been a good recruiter, we've seen that...but as a coach?? So far, i think a lot less than advertised IMO.

Guru, can you please explain the wrinkles you wanted to see? You keep using this phrase but it honestly seems like a buzz word that means nothing.

If you truly think Wojo doesn't draw up plays because of what you see on "In the huddle".....I don't know what to say. Did you see any other coaches drawing up plays during In the Huddle? Do you think maybe they purposefully don't show those because coaches don't want their strategies being broadcast?

So Grimm on Tucker and Butler on Holloway are wrinkles. Is that similar to Haani on Koenig and Sandy on Hayes when Wisconsin's star duo went 7-29 from the field? Seemed like a great coaching move. I thought the play at the end of the Georgetown game was a brilliant call as well.

So Wojo should have switched to zone against nova? You mean like how he did exactly that? But Nova started hitting jump shots so we were forced to switch back. Wojo wasn't out coached that game, that's just what happens when a top 5 team plays and NIT caliber team.

Have you seen Henry score any back to the basket buckets this season? I saw a few I think against cupcakes. The kid is big but he's a finesse player, not a banger. His offense is much better facing the basket. Could Wojo have done a better job developing Henry's post game? That's an argument I'll accept.

I know its easier to blame the coach than it is top blame the players, but the truth is, we weren't very good this season. NIT caliber team. Give them a year to grow up and they will be dancing (assuming Wojo can keep the band together).

[ChicosBailBonds]

In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

He also forgot Matt Heldt lol

It says to me he's better than any point guard Buzz Williams ever brought in because Buzz didn't give a rip about point guards.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guru, can you please explain the wrinkles you wanted to see? You keep using this phrase but it honestly seems like a buzz word that means nothing.

If you truly think Wojo doesn't draw up plays because of what you see on "In the huddle".....I don't know what to say. Did you see any other coaches drawing up plays during In the Huddle? Do you think maybe they purposefully don't show those because coaches don't want their strategies being broadcast?

I can't believe he is still bringing the "in the huddle" nonsense up.  How many times does it have to be explained to him that FS1 and other outlets only show the rah-rah motivational stuff.  Goodness.  This has been explained to over and over again.

[brewcity77]

Not sure yet about his recruiting, Hauser is nice get this year and Howard might be as well, time will tell on that one but he has not signed a big yet for next year, which will give them a chance to be in the top half of the Big East.  Watching Hall, X, and Villy, the one thing sticks out in my mind is how tough and physical they are.
Not sure the recruits he got or is getting are in that category.  He has starting spot open for somebody, just has to find that grad student or JC kid that has some experience, or Fernando or Young, but board quiet on these kids right now.

He landed Heldt, who was a top-150 big man. We have yet to see how he does as far as roster construction, but he can get players. Whether he gets the right players going forward, I'm not sure. Definitely needs to add toughness and interior grit.

I do think guys like Traci and Cheatham have the toughness and mental fortitude to stick in the Big East. But your point is well taken.

[Pakuni]

Point is the "cupboard bare" dumpster fire excuse is much more legit for Buzz than for Wojo. And so is the sorry state of the "Program". None of that stopped Buzz.

I think each coach's success to date is illustrative of their different philosophies.
Buzz, as he did at MU, has rebuilt VaTech in no small measure through the transfer market. His top two scorers are transfers (and his third-leading scorer, fwiw, committed to the previous coach).

Wojo, on the other hand, has rebuilt almost exclusively through high schoolers (went after a couple of grad transfers, didn't get them), foregoing short-term gains in hopes of longer-term success. The result has been some serious growing pains and disappointing finishes, but also reason for hope. Honestly, I think MU is better positioned for long-term success than the Hokies.

Buzz has done a nice job and deserves plenty of credit. But please shoot me the day I consider Marquette getting into the NIT field a big success.  Heck, it's not really a big success at VaTech. Seth Greenberg made four straight NITs and that got him fired.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

He's only had one recruiting class. So its 1 PG in 1 year. Unless you count 2014, which you really shouldn't because there were NO high major or mid major caliber PGs left to recruit from the HS or JUCO ranks. But if you do count 2014 you should add Matt Carlino, a PG grad transfer, so it would be 2 PGs in 2 years. You might even want to call it 2 PGs in 1 year because Wojo also recruited Nick Noskowiak for 2015, he just went off the deep end. Oh and I forgot Andrew Rowsey, another PG. So 3 PGs in 1 year. He's also recruiting Markus Howard for 2016.

I think Wojo knows the value of a good PG. Silly argument.

[MarquetteDano]

I think each coach's success to date is illustrative of their different philosophies.
Buzz, as he did at MU, has rebuilt VaTech in no small measure through the transfer market. His top two scorers are transfers (and his third-leading scorer, fwiw, committed to the previous coach).

Wojo, on the other hand, has rebuilt almost exclusively through high schoolers (went after a couple of grad transfers, didn't get them), foregoing short-term gains in hopes of longer-term success. The result has been some serious growing pains and disappointing finishes, but also reason for hope. Honestly, I think MU is better positioned for long-term success than the Hokies.

Buzz has done a nice job and deserves plenty of credit. But please shoot me the day I consider Marquette getting into the NIT field a big success.  Heck, it's not really a big success at VaTech. Seth Greenberg made four straight NITs and that got him fired.

Valid post.  I must admit I compare what is happening at Va Tech to Marquette this season for the obvious reasons.  I know Wojo can recruit.  It seems like he can develop players.  It is the X and O stuff that has me concerned.  Will try to stay optimistic.

[muguru]

Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz took short term approach at Va Tech, same as he's always done.  He's good at taking guys already that are good, already have a man's body, and doing well with that approach.  Short term fixes.  Buzz wasn't very good with the high schoolers (with a few exceptions)....if a player has a few years under his belt in the JUCO or transfers from other schools, then he does well.  He should, they are more ready made.


MU is playing the long game, and that takes longer.  This isn't nuclear science.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is he friends with them?

No. He's their coach. They love and respect him. Rewatch any video with Wojo and the team or go talk to the players yourself.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I didn't leave anything off, I said we improved the second year.  A 4-1 record against Depaul and St. Johns should be applauded and 0-7 against the top 3 in games that were more blowouts than not should be ignored.  I know, I know, we beat Providence twice.  Definitely our two best conference wins of the year.   

WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

I understand that Buzz left JJJ, Fisher and Duane and they were 3 of our top 5 players.  All 3 are extremely talented.  Deonte Burton was extremely talented.  Sandy Cohen is extremely talented.  I get it, it wasn't ideal what he left behind but it wasn't awful like you want to believe. 

Finally I was referencing Marial Shayok and Ahmed Hill.  Shayok is getting minutes for number 1 seed Virginia and Hill unfortunately tore his patella tendon and redshirted this year.  WOJO would have been thrilled to have kept both of them.  I don't blame him just saying.

Sorry, but I had to laugh when you said Cohen is extremely talented.  He's a decent player, maybe turns into a good player.  Burton was a head case.  Duane, yes he is very talented and still an enigma...good Duane and bad Duane.  Fischer is exactly what I told you guys he was when he came over from IU...he's a blue collar guy, good player, but never going to be great.  JJJ...so much talent, getting better....needs to commit to defense....is he still at MU next season?

I didn't say what was left behind was awful, I said it was miscast and bad fits in terms of pieces.  We don't have the right players in the right positions.

Wojo has tried to recruit point guards, he didn't get them all....probably not a surprise since we basically said point guards don't mean much at MU the last 6 years that we haven't exactly had a point guard rep at this university since Crean left.

How is losing to Xavier by 8 points twice, a blowout?  Including one where we had the lead with less than 3 minutes on the road?  Five teams from this conference made the NCAA tournament, we won three games against those five teams.  We lost two where we were in it to the very end.  Yup, we got blown out by Seton Hall and Villanova.  And?

I agree with you that Wojo would have been thrilled to have both of those guys, just as Buzz would have been thrilled to have Tyshawn Taylor when Crean left.  Just didn't happen.

[Pakuni]

Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

None of this is quite true.
Wojo does all the stuff his predecessors have done, maybe more. The summer BBQ. Handing out doughnuts to students waiting to get in the BC.  Did the National Marquette Day pep rally. Tweets to students/fans pretty consistently. Has done multiple meet-and-greets at the spirit shop.
What more are you expecting? I mean, it's good and important he does that stuff, but it's all secondary to coaching and recruiting.

As for whether his players like him, I expect we'll see fewer transfers among Wojo's recruits than we saw under the previous two coaching staffs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

Your last sentence may be valid.  We worked hard my last year at MU in the athletic department to connect Tom to the students and alumni.  I asked him to do stuff that Deane didn't want to do, but Tom said yes to everything I asked him to do.  Nothing was too small...it could have been a meeting with 20 students, he would do it.   I don't know if Wojo is doing that or not, he's coming from a school where excitement is built in at Duke and isn't needed.  So that might be foreign to him.  I would suggest the marketing guys at MU and the AD build a good will tour of sorts, get him out as much as he can, and that includes the students.   But at the end of the day, winning cures a lot of this.

As far as the players commenting about the coaches, that doesn't bother me one iota.  Coach doesn't need to be their friend, he needs to be their coach, mentor, etc. 

[mu_hilltopper]

IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

[Nukem2]

IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz,

• Cottingham,

Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Huh.  I think you meant Larry Wiiliams.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

No - he owns the trajectory & magnitude of the improvement this year and in the future, but not the majority of the blame for where we are today.

[Marcus92]

Previous coach left behind 5 RSCI top 100 players, 3 of whom were top 60 and 4 of whom were underclassmen.

Previous coach went to an historically bad program with no tradition and much worse players than the ones he left behind.

Previous coach turned his entire roster over in two years, finished in the ACC's first division and made the NIT.

Present coach, with 3 remaining top 100 (including a top 60 and a top 30) players finished under .500 and in 7th place in the 10 team Big East.

What on earth am I missing?

How about the fact that the past is the past.

We're not the Marquette of 1977. Or 2003. Or 2013.

Buzz Williams did some great things while he was here. But he's not here anymore.  He's coaching at another school, one that has no ties to Marquette whatsoever, in another state, in another conference.

You don't have to be happy with the state of things. I'm not. But I accept it — and think Wojo is on the right track. That doesn't mean he has nothing to prove. Just the opposite. But from what I've seen so far, I'm encouraged.

Anyone else is welcome to remain stuck in the past, deny reality or disagree with my outlook.

[The Lens]

If Wojo is here for 7+ years, the long term approach makes sense.

If he's using Marquette as a spring board, I think we'd all agree that we just assume hurry up and win.

Hopefully by 2020, Wojo is still our coach and we are sitting on 3-4 straight NCAAs.

[mu_hilltopper]

No - he owns the trajectory & magnitude of the improvement this year and in the future, but not the majority of the blame for where we are today.

Agreed.  For next year's failure, Wojo's blame% goes to about 60-70.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Agreed.  For next year's failure, Wojo's blame% goes to about 60-70.

What has to happen in order for next season to be a success, NCAA or bust?

[mu03eng]

In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

Metric ranked individual seasons, so Carters season was 3rd best of all seasons last 15 years(that's how I remembered it)

Turns out it was actually 4th best behind two seasons of Diener and one of DJ. Pretty impressive stuff.

http://painttouches.com/2016/03/02/measuring-traci-carters-impact/