Another Big East Expansion Discussion

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Gonzaga and BYU are not national brands.

Okay, BYU may be close to a state school in Utah, but I just don't believe they have much pull beyond state borders, and I really hate the idea of a football school. Getting away from football is why we're here in the first place. It's inviting the problems of the past back through the door. And there's the slippery slope aspect. If we take BYU with football, why not UConn with football, or Cincy with football, or hell, why not just merge with the American and make a 20+ team superconference?

No football. Never again.

As far as Gonzaga, I get that they are a known commodity, but I'm just not that enamored. Small student base, 6,000 seat arena, and while their name is recognized, it's not like they have a big fanbase. I know...they've made the tourney for 17 straight years, but how much of that is playing in a crap conference? Only 4 of those bids have been at-large and only twice have they won more than 2 games in the tournament.

Gonzaga is ridiculously outside the geographic footprint and I just don't believe they will maintain their success level once they actually have to play a real schedule. I'm not convinced they'll continue to be a world-beater with the step up in competition. If they were a team with a few Final Fours and regular Sweet 16 appearances, but they haven't reached a Final Four yet and have only been out of the first weekend twice in the past nine years.

I think Gonzaga will be a team that draws a lot of interest early, but I see it planing off rather quickly. The problem is we'll be stuck with them and the crazy travel requirements for all of our teams, not just basketball.

I also don't see it helping the Big East Tournament. Maybe for a year or two, but MSG is a long way from Spokane (2582 miles) and Provo (2192 miles). We'd be far more likely to get visitors from more local schools like Dayton or VCU than either of those two.

Again, I don't want to expand unless it's a a clear-cut no-brainer decision. UConn or Notre Dame would fit that mold. I don't believe anyone else in the country does. Not Gonzaga, and certainly not BYU.

I definitely disagree on your definition of national brands. BYU is as much of a national brand as you can get. Hell, they are an international brand. Mormons everywhere cheer for BYU as their default team. Gonzaga I would argue is one of the most if not the most recognizable name in basketball only schools. Casual basketball fans would tune in to watch games between Gonzaga and Georgetown or Gonzaga and Marquette. They certainly wouldn't do that for Georgetown vs. Dayton or Marquette vs. SLU.

I don't fear football. Bring on the football teams. Any basketball only programs remaining aren't valuable enough to add to the Big East (besides Gonzaga and maybe VCU/Wichita State). We will eventually need to hold our nose and pick up a football team if we want to expand whether its UConn, BYU, Memphis, Cincy, Notre Dame, Temple, etc. They can park their football somewhere else and it will be that conference's issue. If they end up getting picked up by the ACC and leaving, oh well, don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you. As long as we don't make football a sponsored sport of the Big East, we will be fine.

I don't think it is fair to say that Gonzaga has only been successful because of their conference. 17 straight tourney appearances is a feat no matter where you are from. Teams tend to raise to their level of competition. Gonzaga getting added to the Big East would increase their level of play, not decrease it. They would rise to the challenge. Same way I think Dayton would rise to the challenge. I have no concerns about Dayton's ability to compete in the Big East, I have concerns that no one gives a rat's arse about Dayton outside of the city of Dayton.

The geography only bothers me slightly. I think its something that can be worked out easily. A couple of extra hours on a plane isn't going to kill anybody.

[GoldenWarrior11]

While I don't think football schools are a non-starter, I do think university presidents will be vehemently against non-private/non-catholic schools.  When the C7 broke away from the Old Big East, they had the option to add a school like VCU - coming off a Final Four, consecutive NCAA tournament births, having one of the hottest young coaches in the game (Shaka Smart), a new market (Richmond) and was/is a non-football school - and they weren't even seriously considered.  The five schools that were immediately thrown around were: Xavier, Butler, Saint Louis, Dayton and Creighton - all private/Catholic schools.

Conference realignment has shown conferences want similar institutions in their club.  B1G wanted Nebraska, Rutgers and Maryland, not for their athletic accomplishments, but because they are all big research/land grant universities.  At the time of their acceptance, all were AAU.  The SEC wanted Missouri and Texas A&M, big state football schools in the southeast region of the country that increased their football print.  The same goes for the PAC-12, who added Colorado and Utah. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

While I don't think football schools are a non-starter, I do think university presidents will be vehemently against non-private/non-catholic schools.  When the C7 broke away from the Old Big East, they had the option to add a school like VCU - coming off a Final Four, consecutive NCAA tournament births, having one of the hottest young coaches in the game (Shaka Smart), a new market (Richmond) and was/is a non-football school - and they weren't even seriously considered.  The five schools that were immediately thrown around were: Xavier, Butler, Saint Louis, Dayton and Creighton - all private/Catholic schools.

Conference realignment has shown conferences want similar institutions in their club.  B1G wanted Nebraska, Rutgers and Maryland, not for their athletic accomplishments, but because they are all big research/land grant universities.  At the time of their acceptance, all were AAU.  The SEC wanted Missouri and Texas A&M, big state football schools in the southeast region of the country that increased their football print.  The same goes for the PAC-12, who added Colorado and Utah.

That's because football conferences want good football schools....which are all public. And the Big East wanted all basketball schools....which for the most part are all private. Nothing to do with private/public.

[GGGG]

I don't fear football. Bring on the football teams. Any basketball only programs remaining aren't valuable enough to add to the Big East (besides Gonzaga and maybe VCU/Wichita State). We will eventually need to hold our nose and pick up a football team if we want to expand whether its UConn, BYU, Memphis, Cincy, Notre Dame, Temple, etc. They can park their football somewhere else and it will be that conference's issue.

I disagree.  Football schools will always look out for their football programs first.  No interest in schools with split loyalties.  I think the BE schools lived through that and understandably have no desire to go back to that.

Also, were are football schools supposed to "park their football teams?"  I think the MAC is booting UMass next year, and outside of that, the only "football only" memberships that I can think of are Idaho in the WAC and Hawaii in the MW.

[MUchamp22]

Mostly it has to do with prodigious alcohol consumption and bong hits by posters.

The most realistic scenario for ND coming to the Big East would be the Big Ten and SEC going supernova and devouring the ACC between them with the Big Ten passing on ND because it insists on remaining independent in football.

Thanks, I was gonna say it seems super unrealistic that ND would ever come back... I know we would all love to have them on the schedule every year again, but that just isn't happening.

[source?]

The five schools that were immediately thrown around were: Xavier, Butler, Saint Louis, Dayton and Creighton - all private/Catholic schools.

It is a personal opinion, but I think people underrate the arena/academics aspects. Those schools are all (sans Dayton) among the premier schools in their region (or in SLUs case, a top 100 national university). They also all had 10,000+ seat arenas at the time (Butler has since reduced capacity to 9,100). VCU is currently making a big push to become more academically prestigious (no longer a commuter school, tripled their endowment over the last 3 years), they are increasing their arena capacity to 10,000 and they have a very nice practice facility opening up. We also have some new presidents and ADs since the formation of the BE. It's a completely new landscape.

[GooooMarquette]

I definitely disagree on your definition of national brands. BYU is as much of a national brand as you can get. Hell, they are an international brand. Mormons everywhere cheer for BYU as their default team. Gonzaga I would argue is one of the most if not the most recognizable name in basketball only schools. Casual basketball fans would tune in to watch games between Gonzaga and Georgetown or Gonzaga and Marquette. They certainly wouldn't do that for Georgetown vs. Dayton or Marquette vs. SLU.

Absolutely.  Everywhere I have ever lived, I've regularly seen people (likely Mormons) wearing BYU gear.  Heck, if they joined the BE, they'd arguably be the most national brand in the conference.  Not the best school or the best hoops program...but in terms of national name recognition, they'd be as big as any we have.

I still wonder about the geography if we'd add Gonzaga or BYU...but have no question about BYU being a national brand.

[brewcity77]

Maybe I underestimate the BYU brand, but I just don't encounter that many Mormons. Notre Dame is on a totally different level as they draw Irish and Catholic fans nationwide, which is a massively bigger fanbase. When I travel, I see plenty of Notre Dame and state school fans. BYU I just don't notice.

Same goes for Gonzaga. I think they'd offer a short term bump but they aren't a long term panacea.

Regardless, questions about long term value of the brands, travel that doesn't take student athletes into the consideration, football, and jumping now to expand with no true monetary increase while not knowing what the next five years will hold are my concerns.

[brewcity77]

And to the "why Notre Dame" question, there's a strong continent I've spoken to that believes had the C7 broken off sooner, Notre Dame would have joined us and stayed fully independent for football. I think some of the thoughts of Notre Dame now is the knowledge that plenty of ND boosters wish they could have a do-over on their conference affiliation. It's probably a moot point now, but I think that's why they get mentioned.

[GGGG]

And to the "why Notre Dame" question, there's a strong continent I've spoken to that believes had the C7 broken off sooner, Notre Dame would have joined us and stayed fully independent for football. I think some of the thoughts of Notre Dame now is the knowledge that plenty of ND boosters wish they could have a do-over on their conference affiliation. It's probably a moot point now, but I think that's why they get mentioned.

ND decided to leave in September 2012.  The C7 broke off in December 2012.  The C7 were talking about this long before September.  My guess is that the C7 were ND's back up plan.  Had the ACC said "no thanks," ND might be with us, but they have a pretty sweet situation right now.  I can't see them looking back.

[dbwarriors]

ND decided to leave in September 2012.  The C7 broke off in December 2012.  The C7 were talking about this long before September.  My guess is that the C7 were ND's back up plan.  Had the ACC said "no thanks," ND might be with us, but they have a pretty sweet situation right now.  I can't see them looking back.

Yup, ND will never rejoin the Big East.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yup, ND will never rejoin the Big East.

Probably not, but we can't know what college sports will look like in five years. If the B1G abd SEC devour the ACC and the ACC replaces them with teams from the American, would ND really be happy with those mandatory 5 games against the likes of temple, Syracuse, and Memphis? Maybe, maybe not. We won't know until it happens

[GGGG]

Probably not, but we can't know what college sports will look like in five years. If the B1G abd SEC devour the ACC and the ACC replaces them with teams from the American, would ND really be happy with those mandatory 5 games against the likes of temple, Syracuse, and Memphis? Maybe, maybe not. We won't know until it happens

If more realignment is going to happen, it is either going to happen real soon.  Or it won't happen significantly for another decade.  The B10 television contract is up after next year, but after then it is well into the next decade before any of the major college contracts come due.  I think what might be interesting then is the entire sports marketplace and how people partake.  It might be completely different then.

[Jet915]

Does anyone know if BYU is rooted for by all Mormons across the country?  I mean, I think part of Notre Dame's brand is the fact that their mascot is the "fighting Irish" and people with Irish heritage may buy the product and root for Notre Dame just because the mascot says "fighting Irish."

Basically, does BYU have Wal-Mart fans (Mormons specifically) the same way the UW-Madison does?  My hunch is to say "yes" since they have their own network, but I'm curious if anyone knows for sure.

They have a huge following.  I know a few mormons who live in California and they follow BYU.  If BYU joined the league, they would probably have a similar national following or even more than Georgetown or Villanova.

[GGGG]

The main reason that BYU isn't in a conference like the P12 or B12 is due to their unwillingness to play on Sundays for religious reasons. 

[mug644]

One thing that's not mentioned in the whole BYU is a national brand conversation is that BYU fans may not necessarily be the demographic that companies that advertise during televised sporting events. Yea, there might be BYU-eyes watching games, but they are not as likely to be buying beer, going to Hooters and the like. So, perhaps Fox might not see them as appealing as other potential expansion candidates.

[Benny B]

Guys....

BYU HAS THEIR OWN NETWORK.

We're better off talking about the Mouse starting its own university in Bristol and adding them to the Big East.

Please, let's drop this before the salvos of Orgazmo allusions commence.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Guys....

BYU HAS THEIR OWN NETWORK.

We're better off talking about the Mouse starting its own university in Bristol and adding them to the Big East.

Please, let's drop this before the salvos of Orgazmo allusions commence.

That makes things difficult not impossible. BYU network hasn't done well though it has been better than the Longhorn network from what I've heard. I don't think we'll see too many of these single school networks in the future.

[GGGG]

BYU has had their own network for years.  They use it to show more than sporting events.  There have been rumors about BYU wanting to get into the B12 if they can work out the playing on Sundays thing.  Clearly they are willing to compromise the network if the money is right.

[TedBaxter]

I've said this from the beginning of the conference, the next two schools I'd look at are Dayton and Saint Louis.  Geographically, philosophically and athletically they make a lot of sense.

[MUchamp22]

I've said this from the beginning of the conference, the next two schools I'd look at are Dayton and Saint Louis.  Geographically, philosophically and athletically they make a lot of sense.

I think if the Big East would add teams that make them stay a major conference not just on the court but perception wise as well. I'm sorry I think adding Dayton and SLU makes the conference more mid major than major and they don't add a ton else to the conference. Ultimately I don't think the Big East expands for another 4-5 years. The Big East and Fox needs games they can market around even if the teams aren't great and rivalries can make that happen. Right now with the round robin format rivalries can be formed much quicker and I think rivalries and history between schools within this league can help the Big East as much as expansion can.

[GooooMarquette]

BYU has had their own network for years.  They use it to show more than sporting events.  There have been rumors about BYU wanting to get into the B12 if they can work out the playing on Sundays thing.  Clearly they are willing to compromise the network if the money is right.

Yep.  Looking at the BYU network schedule, they run mostly non-sports shows.  Kinda different from the Longhorn Network and the conference run networks, which are basically all sports, all the time.

If the right offer comes along, the BYU network will not be a deal breaker.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I've said this from the beginning of the conference, the next two schools I'd look at are Dayton and Saint Louis.  Geographically, philosophically and athletically they make a lot of sense.

But the $$$ doesn't make sense and that kills any chance of them getting an invite. Geography, philosophy, and athletic tradition all matter, but they need to pass the first hurdle of will they bring more eyeballs to Fox. The answer for both is a firm no. SLU brings the Saint Louis market but a team that no one in Saint Louis cares about. Everyone in Dayton love the Flyers but no one cares about the market of Dayton. If Saint Louis had Dayton's fan base, or Dayton was in a city the size of St. Louis, you might have some candidates.

[GooooMarquette]

I think if the Big East would add teams that make them stay a major conference not just on the court but perception wise as well. I'm sorry I think adding Dayton and SLU makes the conference more mid major than major and they don't add a ton else to the conference. Ultimately I don't think the Big East expands for another 4-5 years. The Big East and Fox needs games they can market around even if the teams aren't great and rivalries can make that happen. Right now with the round robin format rivalries can be formed much quicker and I think rivalries and history between schools within this league can help the Big East as much as expansion can.

Agree.  We were fortunate to find three schools that can mostly avoid mid-major labels, and add good TV markets.  Xavier with a prolonged history of high-major success in mid-major conferences; Butler largely on the strength of two Final Four runs; and Creighton with some decent success and a great fan following.  Maybe Dayton is relatively close to Creighton in what they offer, but we were smart to give Creighton the nod and get a new TV market.  SLU would bring a good TV market, but a reputation that screams mid-major.

I don't think Dayton or SLU would necessarily be the death knell of the BE as a high-major conference, but if we don't have to expand now, we're better off waiting to see what happens over the next few years.  They'd still be there waiting for us if we need them in a few years.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Since we've beaten the Dayton, SLU, BYU, and Gonzaga horse to death, how about a different candidate. I don't like them personally but could see the benefit if they were to continue to grow their brand over the next few years. Loyola (IL). They've made a lot of commitments to improving athletics over the past few years, they've been growing their endowment, and their basketball has gotten a little bit better. Lord knows DePaul is never going to make the investment in basketball that we should expect out of a Big East member. What if we supplemented the Chicago market with a second Big East school?

Again, don't like them personally. But was curious what others thought.