Another Big East Expansion Discussion

[GooooMarquette]

Since we've beaten the Dayton, SLU, BYU, and Gonzaga horse to death, how about a different candidate. I don't like them personally but could see the benefit if they were to continue to grow their brand over the next few years. Loyola (IL). They've made a lot of commitments to improving athletics over the past few years, they've been growing their endowment, and their basketball has gotten a little bit better. Lord knows DePaul is never going to make the investment in basketball that we should expect out of a Big East member. What if we supplemented the Chicago market with a second Big East school?

Again, don't like them personally. But was curious what others thought.

I kinda doubt we'd help our negotiating position with FSN by adding a second school in a market we already have.  But if we were going to go in that direction, I'd take St. Joe's over Loyola in a nanosecond.

[mug644]

Anyone else wonder if we talk about Big East expansion more than the conference leadership and member-schools talk about it? Or more than Fox talks about it?

[Litehouse]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, but I think is important, is the differentiation the Big East gives us against schools like SLU and Dayton when competing for the general student population.  A lot of students consider attending Marquette, Dayton and SLU.  Offering what we would consider superior competition and a better fan experience as part of the Big East gives us a selling point against those schools that are very similar to us.  If everything else is pretty close, that might be enough to convince some students to pick MU over SLU and Dayton.

[GooooMarquette]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, but I think is important, is the differentiation the Big East gives us against schools like SLU and Dayton when competing for the general student population.  A lot of students consider attending Marquette, Dayton and SLU.  Offering what we would consider superior competition and a better fan experience as part of the Big East gives us a selling point against those schools that are very similar to us.  If everything else is pretty close, that might be enough to convince some students to pick MU over SLU and Dayton.

I'm not sure conference affiliation for a sport played just over 25 times a year is a big differentiator for most students.  Assuming the pool of students has lots of overlap and the schools really are comparable, I'd think that financial aid and overall campus feel/life (for the 150 or so school days where there isn't a game) would make a much greater difference.  I have no idea how the three schools' financial aid differs and have never been to the SLU or Dayton campuses, so can't say how close it would be after factoring in those things.

[source?]

Since we've beaten the Dayton, SLU, BYU, and Gonzaga horse to death, how about a different candidate. I don't like them personally but could see the benefit if they were to continue to grow their brand over the next few years. Loyola (IL). They've made a lot of commitments to improving athletics over the past few years, they've been growing their endowment, and their basketball has gotten a little bit better. Lord knows DePaul is never going to make the investment in basketball that we should expect out of a Big East member. What if we supplemented the Chicago market with a second Big East school?

Again, don't like them personally. But was curious what others thought.

Loyola, Detroit Mercy, Valparaiso, and to a lesser extent Bradley and Belmont all fall into the same category for me; while they kind of fit with the conference they would fast track us to mid-major mediocrity.

[Herman Cain]

And to the "why Notre Dame" question, there's a strong continent I've spoken to that believes had the C7 broken off sooner, Notre Dame would have joined us and stayed fully independent for football. I think some of the thoughts of Notre Dame now is the knowledge that plenty of ND boosters wish they could have a do-over on their conference affiliation. It's probably a moot point now, but I think that's why they get mentioned.

Notre Dame left the Big East for the ACC to upgrade their Olympic Sports and to be in A better neighborhood academically( Duke, UVA,UNC,Wake Forest, BC etc). The condition of the ACC was the guarantee of five football games, which was not a big deal as ND had historically been playing many of them already. The only way they would have remained in the Big East is if the league would not have split and  kept its AQ status as part of the BCS which somehow ND had access to if they were rated higher. When Big East became relegated to have to claw their way into New Years bowl picture ND had no further use for Big East and made the sweetheart deal with ACC. Their athletic donors love being an ACC school.

[brewcity77]

nm

[brewcity77]

Notre Dame left the Big East for the ACC to upgrade their Olympic Sports and to be in A better neighborhood academically( Duke, UVA,UNC,Wake Forest, BC etc). The condition of the ACC was the guarantee of five football games, which was not a big deal as ND had historically been playing many of them already. The only way they would have remained in the Big East is if the league would not have split and  kept its AQ status as part of the BCS which somehow ND had access to if they were rated higher. When Big East became relegated to have to claw their way into New Years bowl picture ND had no further use for Big East and made the sweetheart deal with ACC. Their athletic donors love being an ACC school.

Disagree based on what I've heard. The most important thing for ND was retaining their Independent status in football. The ACC came along at the right time (before the C7 was ready to pull the trigger) and with the Big East collapsing around them, ND made the move they felt they had to make. If the C7 had been ready 3 months earlier to cut ties with the football schools, it would have been the C8 with Notre Dame coming along and retaining full football independence and Creighton would have been left in the cold.

[LloydsLegs]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, but I think is important, is the differentiation the Big East gives us against schools like SLU and Dayton when competing for the general student population.  A lot of students consider attending Marquette, Dayton and SLU.  Offering what we would consider superior competition and a better fan experience as part of the Big East gives us a selling point against those schools that are very similar to us.  If everything else is pretty close, that might be enough to convince some students to pick MU over SLU and Dayton.

I don't know about this.  I think it could make a difference for many of us (Scoopers) if we were deciding now, but not sure about the HS students.  I had two very basketball aware kids who have just considered those schools plus other (ND, Nova, G'town, BC etc), and the basketball experience was far down on their list.  And I have been to games at SLU and Dayton, and the fan experience at both really is excellent-even though the strength of the conference opponents doesn't match up.

No doubt that basketball is great for the MU Brand/name recognition etc, but when it comes down to a decision, not many students are going to factor in MU being in a better conference than SLU, Dayton or George Washington. 

[Eldon]

I don't know about this.  I think it could make a difference for many of us (Scoopers) if we were deciding now, but not sure about the HS students.  I had two very basketball aware kids who have just considered those schools plus other (ND, Nova, G'town, BC etc), and the basketball experience was far down on their list.  And I have been to games at SLU and Dayton, and the fan experience at both really is excellent-even though the strength of the conference opponents doesn't match up.

No doubt that basketball is great for the MU Brand/name recognition etc, but when it comes down to a decision, not many students are going to factor in MU being in a better conference than SLU, Dayton or George Washington.

Well not directly.  But very indirectly they certainly will.  NCAA Tourney appearances brings name recognition, and tourney appearances is a function of conference affiliation.

[Herman Cain]

Disagree based on what I've heard. The most important thing for ND was retaining their Independent status in football. The ACC came along at the right time (before the C7 was ready to pull the trigger) and with the Big East collapsing around them, ND made the move they felt they had to make. If the C7 had been ready 3 months earlier to cut ties with the football schools, it would have been the C8 with Notre Dame coming along and retaining full football independence and Creighton would have been left in the cold.

Notre Dame Football was independent in the Big East and had some ability to access the BCS as an AQ as condition of its relationship with the Big East. When the Big East as it was then structured collapsed, that special AQ  football status also vanished . Notre Dame, fully committed to remaining independent in football, shopped for the best deal for the rest of their sports and that is why they made the deal with the  ACC. If you remember, there was some chatter from ND that they would be a member of the new Big East for a year while transitioning but that never came to be.

If the ACC would not have been flexible on the football independence, then they would have joined the C7 group. However,ND has a heavy investment in sports like Lacrosse, Soccer and Baseball and the ACC is a more attractive option than the Big East for those sports. At the time they made the decision that was emphasized .

It would be nice if we could get the basketball games on the schedule again. However, I don't think ND has any urgent interest in making it happen.

[Atticus]

A collectively bargained TV contract for all P5 schools. Interesting idea.


http://www.scout.com/college/texas/story/1561434-the-next-big-move-in-realignment

[GGGG]

A collectively bargained TV contract for all P5 schools. Interesting idea.


http://www.scout.com/college/texas/story/1561434-the-next-big-move-in-realignment

It all depends on per school revenue.  I just have a feeling the B10 isn't going to do better linking up with the other P5 conferences.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

A collectively bargained TV contract for all P5 schools. Interesting idea.


http://www.scout.com/college/texas/story/1561434-the-next-big-move-in-realignment

An interesting idea, but I don't see it happening.

[MU82]

Disagree based on what I've heard. The most important thing for ND was retaining their Independent status in football. The ACC came along at the right time (before the C7 was ready to pull the trigger) and with the Big East collapsing around them, ND made the move they felt they had to make. If the C7 had been ready 3 months earlier to cut ties with the football schools, it would have been the C8 with Notre Dame coming along and retaining full football independence and Creighton would have been left in the cold.

If true, it's a shame the timing didn't work out. Because I'd trade Creighton in a nanosecond for Notre Dame.

[Brewtown Andy]

Notre Dame Football was independent in the Big East and had some ability to access the BCS as an AQ as condition of its relationship with the Big East. When the Big East as it was then structured collapsed, that special AQ  football status also vanished . Notre Dame, fully committed to remaining independent in football, shopped for the best deal for the rest of their sports and that is why they made the deal with the  ACC. If you remember, there was some chatter from ND that they would be a member of the new Big East for a year while transitioning but that never came to be.

As I recall, that idea getting floated by ND admin was shut down pretty hard and fast by Big East admins.

It would be nice if we could get the basketball games on the schedule again. However, I don't think ND has any urgent interest in making it happen.

Immediately after the Reformation, Brey was talking about wanting to get Marquette on the schedule again, but he's mysteriously stopped mentioning playing Marquette, to the point where he's publicly declaring that he wants to play DePaul in their first game in their new arena.

You know, the arena that was approved years ago but will apparently open after Marquette's new home.

[Benny B]

I'm skeptical as to the whole AQ thing... what's the benefit?

Publicity?  If ND's image ever falls to the point where they need an annual appearance in the likes of the Music City or Belk bowls to boost their profile, then I'm not sure their image is even salvageable.

Money?  ND is probably one of the schools that actually profits from a bowl appearance, but just how much of the $3.5M from the MC Bowl did ND keep last year?  The ACC takes their cut (probably half), then you have your travel expenses and per diem for the team/staff, and what about ticket guarantees?  All told... ND walked home with a million in their pockets perhaps?  They have to rake in 4-5x that amount from a home game in ticket sales alone, and that's doesn't include the $2.5M they get from NBC per game.

Appease the alumni?  ND should know that there is no appeasing their alumni.  If you're going to resort to half-ass pandering, why do anything at all?

I think the whole AQ and bowl tie-in argument is BS, personally.  The move to the ACC was strictly about their O-sports and stability... and frankly, that seems like a lateral move in hindsight.

[Eldon]

As I recall, that idea getting floated by ND admin was shut down pretty hard and fast by Big East admins.

Immediately after the Reformation, Brey was talking about wanting to get Marquette on the schedule again, but he's mysteriously stopped mentioning playing Marquette, to the point where he's publicly declaring that he wants to play DePaul in their first game in their new arena.

You know, the arena that was approved years ago but will apparently open after Marquette's new home.

I also remember this.  But the deal that I remember that the BE presidents shot down was ND parking in the BE for one year, until ND made the full move into the ACC

[KipsBayEagle]

Add Fordham and make the Big East an elite academic conference.  Dayton, SLU add nothing to our conference whatsoever other than 3 or 4 crappy games onto our schedule.  Fordham may be horrible at basketball, but Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette and Fordham makes a pretty solid academic core.

Adding Dayton and SLU is the quickest way to destroy this conference.  Don't add schools just for the sake of adding schools.

[GGGG]

It's first and foremost an athletic conference.  Adding Fordham would not be a good move. 

[brewcity77]

The foundation of this conference is basketball. We can't afford to add anyone that doesn't add value to the basketball brand. Fordham is a complete non-starter.

Perennial winning programs and tourney teams like VCU, Gonzaga, BYU, and Dayton would add quality matchups and NCAA credits in the long run. Fox would never sign off on a program like Fordham.

[GooooMarquette]

I'm gonna guess that only DePaul would support adding Fordham.  Probably their best shot at getting out of the BE basement....

[KipsBayEagle]

The foundation of this conference is basketball. We can't afford to add anyone that doesn't add value to the basketball brand. Fordham is a complete non-starter.

Perennial winning programs and tourney teams like VCU, Gonzaga, BYU, and Dayton would add quality matchups and NCAA credits in the long run. Fox would never sign off on a program like Fordham.

If we can't afford to add anyone who doesn't bring value to the basketball brand, the only school that meets that qualification is Gonzaga.  SLU, Dayton, etc. do not.

We are what we are.  We are never going to be a super conference, but we will always be relevant.  Adding middling schools with mediocre basketball programs is the quickest way to sink this conference.  If you want to expand to include academically elite members I am all for it.  But adding more crappy basketball schools is harmful.  Expansion for expansion's sake is not a good blueprint for the big east.

[GGGG]

I just don't see what is all that great about making the conference better academically either.  And let's not pretend that Fordham is Ivy League or anything.  It is a very good national university, but it's not as though the drop off to Dayton or St. Louis is enormous.

But I do agree with you.  Mediocre basketball programs add nothing.

[Galway Eagle]

If we can't afford to add anyone who doesn't bring value to the basketball brand, the only school that meets that qualification is Gonzaga.  SLU, Dayton, etc. do not.

We are what we are.  We are never going to be a super conference, but we will always be relevant.  Adding middling schools with mediocre basketball programs is the quickest way to sink this conference.  If you want to expand to include academically elite members I am all for it.  But adding more crappy basketball schools is harmful.  Expansion for expansion's sake is not a good blueprint for the big east.

While dayton doesn't bring a big brand they could get there by the time we were expanding. They certainly have a better brand than Seton Hall who outside of 88-94 hasn't ever been a truly good program.