Tanned Tommy on the ropes?

[Windyplayer]

Two very bad things that happened to Crean:
- Beating UK at home. Indiana fans expected that every season from then on.
- With two NBA first rounders, losing in the Sweet 16. That really exposed Crean's X's and O's deficiencies and inability to adjust.

Add to it the superior recruiting classes UK has landed and IU hasn't AND the off-court issues, Crean's luster - as Buzz has realized needs to be protected - has faded dramatically.

He will be around next year. When the July 1, 2016 buyout drops, he's gone.

The best thing for Crean is to become an NBA assistant. He'll have coaching gigs "for life."

I could never rationalize beating a blue blood at home as a bad thing. Besides, pretty sure the IU fanbase had really, really high expectations--if not unreasonably high--long before Crean took his turn at the helm.

[Jay Bee]

In other words, Crean should quit.

I wouldn't. unnatural carnal knowledge IU's delusional fan base. Crean is doing a good job there. Not insanely good, but who could realistically do better? Calipari? Stevens? Coach K? Not gonna happen. Indiana is not what it thinks it is. It's a former blue blood, not a current one.

He shouldn't quit. He should negotiate a buyout that helps both sides - he takes $ and it's a done deal with I4, but it's less than the max of the current buyout provisions. Then, he can find other work and keep cash from I4.

I4 pays out cash but says, 'well it wasn't $16MM, $11.1MM, or $7.5MM!!!!'

Other coaches can do better at I4. It's an X's and O's thing more than anything.

Recruiting is helped because I4. The pinnacle, baby. 

[HutchwasClutch]

Syracuse more appealing than Indiana University?  Uhh, yeah...no.  Syracuse's only success came when...they were big time cheaters.  Now they lose 3 scholarships per year for the next 4 years, plus they already announced their coach is retiring...in 3 years.  That's going to be great for bringing in solid recruiting classes.  "Come to Syracuse, where you won't know who will be coaching in your last 2 seasons in college!"

Duke he could maybe be a candidate for I guess, but there's certainly no guarantee of that.  Not to mention, nobody knows how long Coach 1K will be around.  Chances are pretty good he's still around by the time Stevens's Celtics contract runs out in 4 years.

Stevens would absolutely kill it at IU.  If Stevens showed any interest in the IU job they should immediately fire Crean, even if they have to pay him a full $12 million for his buyout.  Indiana guy who has proven he can be very successful in the NCAA.  He would get every recruit from Indiana, which would be a very good start to getting that program back to where they want to be.

Syracuse's situation, while painful for them and their fanbase, is temporary.  They have great tradition, fan support, in an enormous media market.  Not to mention the deepest basketball conference in the country, and I don't think it's even close.  Syracuse is an elite job once they get past these sanctions.  Way better than Indiana, who again, hasn't been relevant except for a couple of blips (Final Four in '02 and Big Ten regular season title in '13), has been just another face in the crowd on the college basketball landscape for almost 30 years now.

[Warrior Code]

Two very bad things that happened to Crean:
- Beating UK at home. Indiana fans expected that every season from then on.
- With two NBA first rounders, losing in the Sweet 16. That really exposed Crean's X's and O's deficiencies and inability to adjust.

Add to it the superior recruiting classes UK has landed and IU hasn't AND the off-court issues, Crean's luster - as Buzz has realized needs to be protected - has faded dramatically.

He will be around next year. When the July 1, 2016 buyout drops, he's gone.

The best thing for Crean is to become an NBA assistant. He'll have coaching gigs "for life."

Why would any NBA team hire a coach with X's and O's deficiencies, particularly one with the perception of a slickster, used car salesman persona? You don't have to recruit 17 year olds and their parents in the Association.

If I'm an NBA GM, I don't want him anywhere near my bench. If I'm an AD at a smaller school, I'd give him a call.

[HutchwasClutch]

9-9 in conference (8th place), 20-14 overall, 5-10 the last 15 games and a first round NCAA loss to a mid major in year 7 (coming off a terrible season in year 6) isn't much of a rebuild for a blue blood program like IU. Depaul fans would be happy. Hoosier fans have the pitchforks out.

I'm not about to argue they had anything but an overall mediocre season, but dismissing Wichita St as merely an "NCAA loss to a mid major" is just totally misleading.  They went to the Final Four just two years go.  They were 35-1 last year.  They still had some of the core members of those two teams back this year.  They may play in a mid major league, but their recent track record is that of a very high major.  

And IU is not a blue blood anymore.  This isn't 1987 anymore.  They were sliding several years before Knight left even, and have generally continued to slide further since, save for their '02 run and '13 Big Ten title.  That's been it since the early '90's for that program.  At some point, you have to look at results, and they haven't been there in Bloomington for a long time now, certainly not nearly enough to call them a blue blood still.

[Warrior Code]

Syracuse's situation, while painful for them and their fanbase, is temporary.  They have great tradition, fan support, in an enormous media market.  Not to mention the deepest basketball conference in the country, and I don't think it's even close.  Syracuse is an elite job once they get past these sanctions.  Way better than Indiana, who again, hasn't been relevant except for a couple of blips (Final Four in '02 and Big Ten regular season title in '13), has been just another face in the crowd on the college basketball landscape for almost 30 years now.

So what does that make us?

[GGGG]

I could never rationalize beating a blue blood at home as a bad thing. Besides, pretty sure the IU fanbase had really, really high expectations--if not unreasonably high--long before Crean took his turn at the helm.

In the 20 years after the end of the UCLA era, Indiana was one of the best, if not *the* best college basketball programs in the country. No team won more national titles during that time frame.

A history like that isn't easily forgotten.

[MUMonster03]

Crean is the perfect example of how one Final Four can make you look like a great coach. He has been a head coach for 16 years, only 8 tournament appearances, 3 second weekends, 9 total wins, and 4 one and dones.

You take out the final four and its 7 appearances, 5 wins, and 2 second weekends. Which is a mid major resume not a power conference resume.

[tower912]

Exactly.  Or, in chicospeak, he got lucky for one crapshoot.   Taking out 2003, who would want a coach with the resume from the other years at MU?

[79Warrior]

So what does that make us?

This.

[HutchwasClutch]

Crean is the perfect example of how one Final Four can make you look like a great coach. He has been a head coach for 16 years, only 8 tournament appearances, 3 second weekends, 9 total wins, and 4 one and dones.

You take out the final four and its 7 appearances, 5 wins, and 2 second weekends. Which is a mid major resume not a power conference resume.

Give me a break already, the guy won the Big Ten regular season title just two years ago, yet he has a "mid major resume", if he had not made the '03 Final Four?

And you can't just dismiss and say, well if he wouldn't have coached MU to that Final Four.  He did.  You can't just blithely dismiss that accomplishment.  He has the same number of D-1 Final Fours as Bo Ryan, and they've coached about the same number of years at the D-1 level.

I mean, I don't care for the guy either, but back to reality Crean haters.

[Lennys Tap]

 They went to the Final Four just two years go.  They were 35-1 last year.  They still had some of the core members of those two teams back this year.  They may play in a mid major league, but their recent track record is that of a very high major.

They were really good two years ago. Even better last year. Of course that's beside the point - Indiana didn't lose to either of those teams. They lost to a 7th seed who finished in second place in a mid major conference. That's a mid major.

[GGGG]

They were really good two years ago. Even better last year. Of course that's beside the point - Indiana didn't lose to either of those teams. They lost to a 7th seed who finished in second place in a mid major conference. That's a mid major.

Wichita State was the #14 team in the Final AP poll.  That's not mid-major.  That's playing a team that should have been seeded higher.

There are a lot of things you can fault Crean for.  Yesterday's result was entirely predictable however.

[MUMonster03]

Give me a break already, the guy won the Big Ten regular season title just two years ago, yet he has a "mid major resume", if he had not made the '03 Final Four?

And you can't just dismiss and say, well if he wouldn't have coached MU to that Final Four.  He did.  You can't just blithely dismiss that accomplishment.  He has the same number of D-1 Final Fours as Bo Ryan, and they've coached about the same number of years at the D-1 level.

I mean, I don't care for the guy either, but back to reality Crean haters.

I'm just stating facts. If Wojo has his track record 7 years into being at MU I would hope we would can him. You can't expect to be a high major but accept mid major success.

[GGGG]

I'm just stating facts. If Wojo has his track record 7 years into being at MU I would hope we would can him. You can't expect to be a high major but accept mid major success.

"Which is a mid major resume not a power conference resume." - Not a fact.  An opinion.

[HutchwasClutch]

They were really good two years ago. Even better last year. Of course that's beside the point - Indiana didn't lose to either of those teams. They lost to a 7th seed who finished in second place in a mid major conference. That's a mid major.

So your definition of a mid major is rather fluid depending on the year, and how it suits the argument you're making.  OK, got it.  Your earlier quote you just made a blanket statement they lost to a mid major, period.

[drewm88]

we're. . .getting football.

#donedeal

[HutchwasClutch]

I'm just stating facts. If Wojo has his track record 7 years into being at MU I would hope we would can him. You can't expect to be a high major but accept mid major success.

Dismissing his Final Four MU team, and pretending it didn't happen to make your point is hardly "stating facts".

[HutchwasClutch]

"Which is a mid major resume not a power conference resume." - Not a fact.  An opinion.

A very weak one at that.

[keefe]

Agreed. I know two things about Tom Crean.

1) He is a duplicitous, manipulative snake oil salesman.
2) The debt Marquette owes him is massive.

The two things are mutually exclusive.

I agree the two are mutually exclusive but I disagree that MU owes him a financial, philosophical, or moral debt. He was rewarded handsomely for his time at Marquette. In many ways, too much.

I struggle with the economics of American culture. The rest of the world is puzzled by how little we pay our teachers. We lavish riches on entertainers while ignoring the fundamentals. I have a colleague who spent 25 years as a geneticist working at Fred Hutch to cure cancer. He was on the team that was awarded a Nobel Prize for its work on cell cycle control - work that has saved lives. He made a fraction of what Tanned Tommy did at Marquette. That strikes me as odd. 

[WarhawkWarrior]

Not odd at all.  Free enterprise.  Find a country that has a better system that can still defend its liberty.

[Lennys Tap]

So your definition of a mid major is rather fluid depending on the year, and how it suits the argument you're making.  OK, got it.  Your earlier quote you just made a blanket statement they lost to a mid major, period.

Actually, no. Wichita State is a mid major, period. Two years as a top ten team doesn't make an MVC team "major". Ten years plus (see Gonzaga), okay. But for two years they were an elite team despite their mid major status. This year they were back to being the quintessential mid major. Good, solid, not great.

[brewcity77]

Crean is the perfect example of how one Final Four can make you look like a great coach. He has been a head coach for 16 years, only 8 tournament appearances, 3 second weekends, 9 total wins, and 4 one and dones.

You take out the final four and its 7 appearances, 5 wins, and 2 second weekends. Which is a mid major resume not a power conference resume.

Okay...you want to throw out his best season, throw out his worst season as well. That gives him this resume:

14 Seasons
278-176 (.612 WP)
7 NCAA Appearances
5-7 NCAA Record
2 Sweet 16s
3 NIT Appearances
2-3 NIT Record

That's not too bad. Averages almost 20 wins per season in high major conferences. There are a ton of programs that would love that level of success. Hell, if you give him 2 years for the rebuild and measure him based on the years after his first two (again, discounting best and worst) you have a 226-107 (0.679 WP) record in 10 seasons with 7 NCAA Appearances and 2 NIT Appearances.  Those are pretty good numbers.

Crean isn't a Hall of Famer, he isn't an elite coach, but acting like he's a mid-major coach is just silly. The guy has put together a nice career for himself in taking jobs that were once great, largely fell from grace, and putting them back on the map. No one will confuse him with Al McGuire, but let's not pretend he's Bob Dukiet either.

[willie warrior]

Okay...you want to throw out his best season, throw out his worst season as well. That gives him this resume:

14 Seasons
278-176 (.612 WP)
7 NCAA Appearances
5-7 NCAA Record
2 Sweet 16s
3 NIT Appearances
2-3 NIT Record

That's not too bad. Averages almost 20 wins per season in high major conferences. There are a ton of programs that would love that level of success. Hell, if you give him 2 years for the rebuild and measure him based on the years after his first two (again, discounting best and worst) you have a 226-107 (0.679 WP) record in 10 seasons with 7 NCAA Appearances and 2 NIT Appearances.  Those are pretty good numbers.

Crean isn't a Hall of Famer, he isn't an elite coach, but acting like he's a mid-major coach is just silly. The guy has put together a nice career for himself in taking jobs that were once great, largely fell from grace, and putting them back on the map. No one will confuse him with Al McGuire, but let's not pretend he's Bob Dukiet either.

Yeah, I agree mostly. Have never been a Crean fan, but the vitriol against him is "beyond the pale". We should feel sorry for the guy. His walk away money will not even support him and Joanie in the manner they are accustomed to.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I agree the two are mutually exclusive but I disagree that MU owes him a financial, philosophical, or moral debt. He was rewarded handsomely for his time at Marquette. In many ways, too much.

I struggle with the economics of American culture. The rest of the world is puzzled by how little we pay our teachers. We lavish riches on entertainers while ignoring the fundamentals. I have a colleague who spent 25 years as a geneticist working at Fred Hutch to cure cancer. He was on the team that was awarded a Nobel Prize for its work on cell cycle control - work that has saved lives. He made a fraction of what Tanned Tommy did at Marquette. That strikes me as odd. 

Exactly. We don't owe Crean sh!t. In fact, he still owes us $100k for the soccer stadium. His buyout should cover that nicely, he better pony up!