Why JJJ has to play 25+ minutes per game

[GGGG]

Thank you for taking a step back and explaining. This is a point of view that makes sense to me. I don't agree with it, but its much more reasonable than the "threw him under the bus" comments.

I actually think Ners is fairly accurate in his assessment.  That being said, I don't think that means that one party was "right" and the other was "wrong."  New coaches have different expectations.  Certain players had no trouble adapting to those.  Others didn't.  That's life.  Just like a workplace when you get a new boss.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I actually think Ners is fairly accurate in his assessment.  That being said, I don't think that means that one party was "right" and the other was "wrong."  New coaches have different expectations.  Certain players had no trouble adapting to those.  Others didn't.  That's life.  Just like a workplace when you get a new boss.

I think he's accurate as well. But I don't agree with the implication that Wojo did wrong because he went back on his promise. It was not a promise of playing time, it was an agreement. You give me the kind of production I expect, I will give you the playing time you expect.

[WarriorInNYC]

Ners, serious questions for you, and your answer can't be it's because he didn't get enough time on the court during games.

When Deonte played this year for MU, how did he play?  Was he engaged?  Did he play good D or did he miss his assignments?  Did he box out and rebound well? If you had to grade his performance for the time he did play, what would you give him?

My point is that I don't doubt when Wojo came to Marquette, he saw Deonte as a first team Big East freshman last year and that he needed him to produce this year. I'm betting that Wojo told him he's going to be a major part of the team.  But for whatever reason, probably because of his Mother's passing, Deonte's play wasn't what Wojo anticipated it should be.  It wasn't what the rest of the coaching staff thought they were getting before the season started.  So when DB played, and he missed his defensive assignments, didn't play a factor on the boards and otherwise looked lost at times, he didn't get as much run. 

Your point on DB seems to be, because Wojo told him he'd be a big part of this team, Wojo should have played him regardless of his performance on the court.  Do you honestly feel that Deonte then could coast, or should be able to do whatever he wanted (including not play up to his potential) and still get the time on the court he was supposedly promised?

If your answers to the questions are that you think Deonte Burton was outstanding when he played this year, that he earned the right to be on the court a lot more, not because of his potential, because of how he played this year, and therefore Wojo lied to him, you're more delusional than I thought.

You've hit the nail on the head here Lighthouse.  I was typing up a response similar to this, but could not put it into words as articulate as this.

I think there were several reasons DB was struggling this year on the court.  His mother's passing being one, possibly playing in a new system being another, and playing out of position being another.  I really thought once Luke became available that we would see a sharp increase in DB's productivity as he could shift to the 3.

I wish he was still here at MU, but don't blame him for wanting to transfer.  I wish him the best at Iowa State and I'm sure we will see some great stat lines and some highlight reel dunks coming from over there.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation.  The issue was this:

Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.

The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.

Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated.  When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy.  Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good.  So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo.  Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.

Nothing more.  Nothing less.  Sh$t happens.  My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here.  I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc.  Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss. 

#1 This is a reasonable response, and most posters are going to agree with it.

#2 I don't think there were a lot of posters saying MU was better off without him. If there were, feel free to blast those people because that is stupid.

#3 (this is where we fundamentally disagree) Playing time is earned, not given. If Deonte was unhappy with his minutes, he just needed to play better. Sandy Cohen, Steve Taylor and Luke are PERFECT examples. When Sandy performs well, he gets additional player time. Same for Steve. Against SJU, steve got a lot of minutes. Luke came off of the bench initially, and performed well. Now he's a starter. Again, this is just where you and I fundamentally disagree. We don't need to rehash the whole thing.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, serious questions for you, and your answer can't be it's because he didn't get enough time on the court during games.

When Deonte played this year for MU, how did he play?  Was he engaged?  Did he play good D or did he miss his assignments?  Did he box out and rebound well? If you had to grade his performance for the time he did play, what would you give him?

My point is that I don't doubt when Wojo came to Marquette, he saw Deonte as a first team Big East freshman last year and that he needed him to produce this year. I'm betting that Wojo told him he's going to be a major part of the team.  But for whatever reason, probably because of his Mother's passing, Deonte's play wasn't what Wojo anticipated it should be.  It wasn't what the rest of the coaching staff thought they were getting before the season started.  So when DB played, and he missed his defensive assignments, didn't play a factor on the boards and otherwise looked lost at times, he didn't get as much run. 

Your point on DB seems to be, because Wojo told him he'd be a big part of this team, Wojo should have played him regardless of his performance on the court.  Do you honestly feel that Deonte then could coast, or should be able to do whatever he wanted (including not play up to his potential) and still get the time on the court he was supposedly promised?

If your answers to the questions are that you think Deonte Burton was outstanding when he played this year, that he earned the right to be on the court a lot more, not because of his potential, because of how he played this year, and therefore Wojo lied to him, you're more delusional than I thought.

Did I feel Deonte rebounded well/to his potential this season or last season for that matter?  No.

Do I feel Deonte "looked engaged?"  In my view, Deonte looked the same this season as he did last season.  Deonte is a guy who will never look uber intense.  D-Wade never looked uber intense.  Paul George doesn't.  Some guys just don't have that personality type. 

Sometimes people mistake activity for production.  At times Deonte was out of position on defense.  The same can apply to virtually everyone on this team or last year's at times.  Boxing out hasn't been a strength of anyone on the team this year - and becomes much more difficult when primarily playing zone defense.  Yet with Deonte, he was in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in steal percentage as a freshman.  Top 50 players in Block percentage.  Deonte had very good defensive instincts and was disruptive, yet was not a great on ball defender.  However, there was defensive production.

In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor.  Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team.  Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.

[Spotcheck Billy]

If Burton did leave with his role on the floor as a significant factor, I wish he had stayed until Fischer was eligible to play but I suspect that isn't why he left as he knew as well as the rest of us that his role would change at that point i.e. playing more at his natural position.

[WarriorInNYC]

Sometimes people mistake activity for production.  At times Deonte was out of position on defense.  The same can apply to virtually everyone on this team or last year's at times.  Boxing out hasn't been a strength of anyone on the team this year - and becomes much more difficult when primarily playing zone defense.  Yet with Deonte, he was in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in steal percentage as a freshman.  Top 50 players in Block percentage.  Deonte had very good defensive instincts and was disruptive, yet was not a great on ball defender.  However, there was defensive production.

Yes, those were some great numbers from last year.  But in the minutes he had this year, this was not the case.

In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor.  Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team.  Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.

I know that that is really difficult to deal with, but I don't get at all how this factors into giving him more PT.  If his minutes are not that effective, you don't play him more simply because he is dealing with the loss of his mother.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor.  Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team.  Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.

I don't disagree, but I guess we define "longer leash" differently.

I think having Deonte on the team and supporting him is a pretty big deal and very important for a kid who lost his mother.

I don't think giving Deonte 10 more MPG because he had some personal struggles is appropriate, and I don't expect a coach to do that.

Deonte wasn't very effective, so his minutes weren't as high as he or Wojo likely anticipated.

[NersEllenson]

I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year.  And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game.  The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes.  Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom.  In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling.  Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.

[Lighthouse 84]

I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year.  And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game.  The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes.  Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom.  In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling.  Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.

I don't know that a lot of posters are saying he was awful.  He just wasn't playing better than a 15 minute per game player.  As has been mentioned, maybe he would have once Luke started playing, but we'll never know.

And the only thing that should warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game is better production when he was on the court.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year.  And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game.  The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes.  Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom.  In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling.  Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.

This is just where we fundamentally disagree.

I'm completely sympathetic to DB's situation. It's tragic. In my mind, this year was a "Free pass". He just didn't look right on the court.

BUT, that doesn't mean Wojo should have given him 15 MORE minutes per game. Has nothing to do with Derrick, or JJJ, or anything like that. Has everything to do with DB. He was getting the amount of PT that he earned. If he needed some time off, or extra support from the coaches, then so be it. But, I don't think you can give him more PT because he has some off the court stuff.

[mu-rara]

At some point doesn't Ners need to show us news clips, yearbook pictures, all conference trophies.  Something.

[TeamOh]

At some point doesn't Ners need to show us news clips, yearbook pictures, all conference trophies.  Something.

No.  You need to play him one on one.  That is how the game of basketball is played, and he needs to put you in your place.

[mu-rara]

No.  You need to play him one on one.  That is how the game of basketball is played, and he needs to put you in your place.

My winter sport was wrestling.  Ners could suck and beat me.  Doesn't prove anything. 

Wrestlers all wanted to play hoop cause that's where the chicks were.  My wife was a basketball cheerleader and didn't follow wrestling at all.  I lucked out with her.

PS.  I still understand basketball better than Ners because I understand that there is O and D.  Ya gotta play both.

[NersEllenson]

My winter sport was wrestling.  Ners could suck and beat me.  Doesn't prove anything. 

Wrestlers all wanted to play hoop cause that's where the chicks were.  My wife was a basketball cheerleader and didn't follow wrestling at all.  I lucked out with her.

PS.  I still understand basketball better than Ners because I understand that there is O and D.  Ya gotta play both.

Nice work on landing your wife.  Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match.  Why?  Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts.  Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?

Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times.  And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.

And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year.  We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.

[willie warrior]

Nice work on landing your wife.  Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match.  Why?  Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts.  Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?

Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times.  And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.

And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year.  We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.

Now Ners--a wrestler that is struggling over and over doesn't matter, if the coach says he is elite. You, by now, should know that--even if the performance of that guy actually is not that. Get with the conventional narrative!

[MU1980]

I'm not sure what your relationship is with players on the team.  It seems you have some relationship to Jajuan, even though you've been on this board longer than his time here and you refuse to tell anyone what that relationship is.  Because of you and Ners I try to stay away from any thread that picks up pages and pages of content, so I'm a fews days late.  But I went back and read this post.  Plain and simple, you are lying.  You are literally spewing garbage each thread.

Wojo is a good man and he is creating the RIGHT CULTURE here at MU.  A damn good one from all accounts that I've heard.  Something we desperately needed after Buzz nearly sunk our entire program in with his constant bullcrap (or do you miss Marquette being plastered all over the front page of the Chicago Tribune because our coach covered up a rape scandal here on campus?).  I've already offered up opinions of a current manager who contradicts every single thing you say about our coaches and their relationships with our players.  I'll go further to dispel the notion that Buzz was a caring, genuine man.  I was a manager for Buzz and it was dreadful.  He is an egomaniacal prick who only looked out for himself, and couldn't have been more of an actor when it came to his press conferences.  As Chicos has stated, "he knew when the cameras were on".  Unless you were a Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander, Junior caliber player on this team, Buzz had absolutely no one's back (and couldn't help but run a program that CONTINUALLY had problems and stories arise).  Treated fringe players poorly, managers even worse, and wouldn't even acknowledge other sports in the athletic department (as some have also said on this board).  You "claim" Wojo is willing to throw people under the bus.  At no point have you proven this.  But we can prove that Buzz was willing to throw just about anybody under the bus to fit his needs.  Whether that be taking away D.J. Newbill's scholarship to make room for Jamil or his best friend, Scott Monarch, being dismissed.

Point being, you don't know what you are talking about.  Or you are conjuring up one hell of a troll job.  The culture under Buzz was pathetic, even when the results were outstanding.  To a man (or woman), every person I have spoken with, whether that be on the team, or a manager on the team, or someone who plays sports and goes to the Al, someone who works in the athletic department, friends who work in the office - every last person - says the difference in culture is night and day.  Wojo has come in and turned turned the whole thing around already.  So stop lying about things you don't know.  Quit creating narratives like Ners.  Wojo goes about his business the right way, and once we get the horses, we'll see the results on the court to boot.  Of that, I have no worries.

Excellent, excellent post to Texas Western.  My two least favorite posters by far are TW and Ners and they do make people come on to MUScoop less than they normally would, myself included.  However, where the two of them differ is TW is nowhere to be seen when questioned by someone and he will just wait until he has the chance to hijack another thread saying how awful of a person Wojo is.  At least Ners really believes in all the stuff he posts and tries to defend his position, even though most of us disagree with his viewpoint.  I don't believe Texas Western really believes the crap he posts and is most likely just one hell of a troll that enjoys ripping on the coach and certain players (Carlino) and tries to psychoanalyze one of our incoming freshman (NN) based on his tweet.  As I have said many times, we are all going to have different opinions, but the constant ripping on Wojo for things that are not even close to being true and trying to make them sound like fact is what makes TW rise above Ners as the worst poster on here. 

[forgetful]

I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year.  And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game.  The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes.  Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom.  In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling.  Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.

That would all be fine if the player is showing interest in improving, and progress at improving on his issues (aka defense and being dialed in when he doesn't have the ball).  He wasn't showing improvement.  Playing time then becomes a means to indicate the importance of buying into the team concepts. 

You never give playing time/rope to a player that isn't buying in to the team concept, that is idiotic and leads to the downfall of even very skilled teams.

[MU82]

I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match.  Why?  Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts. 

Yet another silly strawman argument.

Basketball is on TV constantly. It is explained superbly by the better commentators. It is everywhere. By the time we have reached the stage of our lives when we are taking part in discourse on Scoop, many of us have: played basketball as kids; played intramural basketball in college; watched a ton of prep, college and/or pro basketball in person or on TV; coached our kids' teams; gotten to know players and/or coaches; and spent significant time having just these kinds of discussions. Oh, and many of us have played high school ball, too.

While I have never, ever seen a wrestling match, I'll bet that most wrestlers have at least casual knowledge of basketball and many have just as much (or more) knowledge about basketball as you or I do.

And then there's this: Basketball is a fairly easy game to learn.

I know, because I teach it to middle-school girls who have done a great job of picking up on the concepts. Exactly half of my 10-girl team had never played basketball before this season -- and I mean NEVER -- but they worked hard and improved quickly and we take a 13-3 record into the conference tournament. Two of those newbies start and two others are reserves who often play more than the starters.

They probably know as much about basketball as you do, too. OK ... maybe that's hyperbole, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't know more about basketball than you do about wrestling.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nice work on landing your wife.  Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match.  Why?  Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts.  Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?

Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times.  And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.

And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year.  We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.

Honest question:

If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?

[GGGG]

Honest question:

If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?

Jesus didn't want to get hung up on a cross either.  He did it for us.

[NersEllenson]

Honest question:

If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?

I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment.  And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times.  I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.

I enjoy reading the takes many people have here.  I love MU Hoops - no better place to discuss it than right here.  That's why I post here, read here, etc.  Thankfully next season a huge source of the angst here will be gone.

And PS Guns:  I had lots of PR experience coordinating player and coaches interviews with the media at the college and NBA level.  Color commentators talk with coaches frequently to get their views on a team.  I watched frequently at shoot around and the press room before games color guys talk with head coaches.  When I say MU PR machine - it was more a reference to the feedback given to a media guy like Dickie Simpkins by our biggest mouthpiece - Wojo.  Of course it isn't a case of MU issuing a press release or putting comments such as the ones made by Dickie Simpkins in the game notes for a contest...

[mu-rara]

I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment.  And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times.  I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.

Ners, my point was that IF you were such a great player, I would be no competition for you in one on one, as I was a wrestler.  The joke I tell people is that I was such an accomplished grade school basketball player, the HS wrestling coach recruited me in 9th grade. 

Good basketball players do not automatically make good coaches.  Look at history.  You make valid points on other topics, but you are known as the Derrick basher.  You have lost credibility on all your posts because you are so far in the hole on your Derrick crusade.

Are you going to cough up your HS hoop cred?

[NersEllenson]

Ners, my point was that IF you were such a great player, I would be no competition for you in one on one, as I was a wrestler.  The joke I tell people is that I was such an accomplished grade school basketball player, the HS wrestling coach recruited me in 9th grade. 

Good basketball players do not automatically make good coaches.  Look at history.  You make valid points on other topics, but you are known as the Derrick basher.  You have lost credibility on all your posts because you are so far in the hole on your Derrick crusade.

Are you going to cough up your HS hoop cred?

All good Rara.  I'm sure you'd dominate me on the wrestling mat.  My experience on wrestling mats ended in 5th grade.  I won't get into my playing "accolades" as they'll get thrown back in my face.  I only ever brought up any of that stuff as people here had asked where I was drawing my conclusions from/what I was basing my conclusions on/what would give me any credibility on the matter.

And I agree that good basketball coaches don't always make good coaches, yet generally in most cases basketball coaches end up squaring off against other basketball coaches.  Some have to lose! 17 of 30 coaches in NBA are former players.  Interestingly enough, the far superior Western Conference features 12 of its 15 coaches as former NBA players, whereas the Eastern Conference only has 5 of its 15 as former players.  3 of those 5 Eastern Conference coaches have their teams in the Top 8 in Eastern Conference.

And yes, I realize I've brought a lot of "dislike" here on myself for not backing off the negative position/opinion I have on Derrick.  Obviously I don't hold a negative opinion of him as a person, just as a basketball player.  He has some qualities that are good, such as rarely turning the ball over and being strong with the ball.  Yet for as good as he is in that regard I wish he'd force the issue more and attack/drive/penetrate more frequently - as it could force help and create some better looks for both Matt and Duane.  In most* cases when Derrick does penetrate, he ends up shooting the basketball.

[forgetful]

I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment.  And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times.  I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.

I enjoy reading the takes many people have here.  I love MU Hoops - no better place to discuss it than right here.  That's why I post here, read here, etc.  Thankfully next season a huge source of the angst here will be gone.

And PS Guns:  I had lots of PR experience coordinating player and coaches interviews with the media at the college and NBA level.  Color commentators talk with coaches frequently to get their views on a team.  I watched frequently at shoot around and the press room before games color guys talk with head coaches.  When I say MU PR machine - it was more a reference to the feedback given to a media guy like Dickie Simpkins by our biggest mouthpiece - Wojo.  Of course it isn't a case of MU issuing a press release or putting comments such as the ones made by Dickie Simpkins in the game notes for a contest...

Lets post the question another way.  If there was a wrestling board, where a former wrestler disagreed with everyone on the board, wrestlers and non-wrestlers alike.  Where the non-wrestler's thoughts/viewpoints align with all the other former wrestlers.

Who is more likely to be correct, the non-wrestler (who all the former wrestlers agree with) or the one outlier amongst the former wrestlers?