Noskowiak recruiting Ellenson

[Tugg Speedman]

I don't know anything about college track and field.

Are there schools/programs that are known for producing high jumpers or other specialized track athletes?

Florida!  Dick Booth is the jumps coach.  The man is a legend

Booth's Coaching Career Totals:
At Arkansas – 45 individual national champions; 137 All-America honors, 11 Olympians.
At Florida – 2 individual national champions; 5 All-America honors; 2 SEC individual titles.

http://web.gatorzone.com/trackfield/staff/booth

Dwight Stones lives in Gainesville and works with them as well.

Might Billy Donovan be interested in a "packaged deal?"

[Dawson Rental]

Florida!  Dick Booth is the jumps coach.  The man in a legend

Booth's Coaching Career Totals:
At Arkansas – 45 individual national champions; 137 All-America honors, 11 Olympians.
At Florida – 2 individual national champions; 5 All-America honors; 2 SEC individual titles.

http://web.gatorzone.com/trackfield/staff/booth

Dwight Stones lives in Gainesville and works with them as well.

Might Billy Donovan be interested in a "packaged deal?"

Nope, he doesn't need to do that.  And Florida is not on Henry Ellenson's list.

[NersEllenson]

Dawson was not a better option than Derrick.

And you can't look at a stat line in a vacuum and take nothing else into consideration.  That's your problem.  You look at 1 thing: POINTS!  Unfortunately for your arguments, there is more to basketball than that.  Not all players are asked to do the same things on the court, and not all games are going to be played the exact same way.  I know that doesn't make sense to you, but it actually is true.  Tough to wrap your head around, I know, I know.

Do you actually believe the nonsense you write??  You are correct - I totally and completely cannot wrap my head around the ridiculous conclusions you draw.  You really have zero business questioning others basketball knowledge.  You don't have a clue.

It was painfully obvious to those who have a shred of basketball knowledge last season that it wasn't going to work, or get better with Derrick at PG for 32 minutes per game.  But to those of you who tried to argue all season long for Derrick (AND BUZZ)...that it would get better, Buzz's teams always get better...and we'd be okay - you ended up looking like the clueless basketball minds you are.

Again, if Dawson laid the turd of a game of 20 minutes, 0 points, 0 assists, 3 personal fouls...the same 5-7 of you here who try to champion such stat lines for Derrick as being good/great...would have been all over Dawson last year as proof he wasn't a better option than Derrick.

It was a historically bad and awful performance turned in by our PG last season.  Not needing to be defended within 5 feet on the perimeter as a PG in high major ball is beyond awful.  Your bizarre head coach trying to design ways to get you as a PG to primarily play out of the paint, and down low...as a way to try to force teams to guard him...was beyond stupid.

But hey...yeah...I know - why would a coach ask or want a PG that actually has to be guarded on the perimeter, is a threat to take and make 3 point shots, can actually run a fast break, make FTs at a respectable clip, and doesn't result in the team playing 4 on 5??  Ahh...thanks Wades..your brilliance finally helped answer my question:  Not all players are asked to do the same thing on the basketball court!!!  Genius!  You mean centers aren't asked to be Point Guards?  And PGs aren't asked to Centers?  Or wait...we did actually try that goofy game last year trying to play Derrick down low.  A PG is asked to orchestrate the f'in offense okay?  What we had last year was the exact opposite of that.

[wadesworld]

Do you actually believe the nonsense you write??  You are correct - I totally and completely cannot wrap my head around the ridiculous conclusions you draw.  You really have zero business questioning others basketball knowledge.  You don't have a clue.

It was painfully obvious to those who have a shred of basketball knowledge last season that it wasn't going to work, or get better with Derrick at PG for 32 minutes per game.  But to those of you who tried to argue all season long for Derrick (AND BUZZ)...that it would get better, Buzz's teams always get better...and we'd be okay - you ended up looking like the clueless basketball minds you are.

Again, if Dawson laid the turd of a game of 20 minutes, 0 points, 0 assists, 3 personal fouls...the same 5-7 of you here who try to champion such stat lines for Derrick as being good/great...would have been all over Dawson last year as proof he wasn't a better option than Derrick.

It was a historically bad and awful performance turned in by our PG last season.  Not needing to be defended within 5 feet on the perimeter as a PG in high major ball is beyond awful.  Your bizarre head coach trying to design ways to get you as a PG to primarily play out of the paint, and down low...as a way to try to force teams to guard him...was beyond stupid.

But hey...yeah...I know - why would a coach ask or want a PG that actually has to be guarded on the perimeter, is a threat to take and make 3 point shots, can actually run a fast break, make FTs at a respectable clip, and doesn't result in the team playing 4 on 5??  Ahh...thanks Wades..your brilliance finally helped answer my question:  Not all players are asked to do the same thing on the basketball court!!!  Genius!  You mean centers aren't asked to be Point Guards?  And PGs aren't asked to Centers?  Or wait...we did actually try that goofy game last year trying to play Derrick down low.  A PG is asked to orchestrate the f'in offense okay?  What we had last year was the exact opposite of that.

I was referring to the 2011 game at UW Madison. The same 1 you were referring to. The same game you referenced Wilson's stat line from. Not sure where this long winded rant about last year comes in, but sure man.

If Dawson would've guarded UW's best player at UW this year, a senior preseason All American, and we would've won the game because their best player had a horrible offensive game, with Dawson scoring 0 points on 0 shots, I would've been ecstatic about it. You would've preferred to see the UW senior go off, we lose by 8, but Dawson score 8 points. You would've anointed him Magic Johnson 2.0. But you are a basketball genius, so you are right.

Different players and different games bring about different game plans and asking players to do different things. You don't ask your freshman back up point guard to jump into the toughest road game of the year, guard one of the best players in the country, and go for 20 and 10. But somehow that's what you expect and anything less is an awful game. You lack any knowledge of the game of basketball and what is being asked of players. You know 1 thing and 1 thing only, put the ball in the hoop. There is more to the game. I'm pretty sure you're pretty old, but maybe there's still time for you to figure it out.

[Wojo'sMojo]

So in your predictions for each players' points per game average you are factoring in the games you believe each player will miss due to injury and/or suspension?  (Serious question).

So as an example, Cohen could score 120 points in the non-conference and not score another point during conference play and roughly avg 4 ppg.

[wadesworld]

So as an example, Cohen could score 120 points in the non-conference and not score another point during conference play and roughly avg 4 ppg.

Yes. I agree with this. But then Cohen would be contributing 4 ppg to the team's total ppg for the season. The reason a team's ppg for a season is sometimes different than the sum of each players' ppg on the roster is because when a player does not play in a game due to a suspension or injury the game is not taken into account in their ppg average. So when someone is making preseason predictions on players' ppg they're typically doing so without taking injury or suspension into consideration, and thus the sum of the players' ppg would be what you expect the team's season ppg to be.

[GGGG]

You guys do realize that Wally finished second in NCAA Outdoors with a High Jump of 7-4.5?

http://www.ncaa.com/sports/trackfield-outdoor-men/d1/2014-di-track-and-field-results

Again, Wally is on the fast track to 2016 Olympic games in Rio.  Why would he derail that opportunity to become a "package deal" for Henry to a school that has program with no experience putting high jumpers into the Olympics??"  Restated, Wally's decision to transfer (or not) might be the bigger deal in the Ellenson household than Henry's.  Wally has "outgrown" Minnesota and should be looking at an SEC/PAC-12 school. 

Wally has stated he wants to continue to play basketball.  Now he may have changed his mind since the second place finish, but he hasn't said anything public in that regard.

[Tums Festival]

I think we're better known for track than for field.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Yes. I agree with this. But then Cohen would be contributing 4 ppg to the team's total ppg for the season. The reason a team's ppg for a season is sometimes different than the sum of each players' ppg on the roster is because when a player does not play in a game due to a suspension or injury the game is not taken into account in their ppg average. So when someone is making preseason predictions on players' ppg they're typically doing so without taking injury or suspension into consideration, and thus the sum of the players' ppg would be what you expect the team's season ppg to be.

The team ppg is always going to differ from the sum of the players ppg. And almost always it's going to tend higher on the players sum ppg. Dylan Flood averaged .3 ppg last year and didn't play in probably 25 games. If we up our team ppg form 72 to 80, we will around be 85-90ppg individually. It's on the high end as I said, but not inconceivable.

[NersEllenson]

I was referring to the 2011 game at UW Madison. The same 1 you were referring to. The same game you referenced Wilson's stat line from. Not sure where this long winded rant about last year comes in, but sure man.

If Dawson would've guarded UW's best player at UW this year, a senior preseason All American, and we would've won the game because their best player had a horrible offensive game, with Dawson scoring 0 points on 0 shots, I would've been ecstatic about it. You would've preferred to see the UW senior go off, we lose by 8, but Dawson score 8 points. You would've anointed him Magic Johnson 2.0. But you are a basketball genius, so you are right.

Different players and different games bring about different game plans and asking players to do different things. You don't ask your freshman back up point guard to jump into the toughest road game of the year, guard one of the best players in the country, and go for 20 and 10. But somehow that's what you expect and anything less is an awful game. You lack any knowledge of the game of basketball and what is being asked of players. You know 1 thing and 1 thing only, put the ball in the hoop. There is more to the game. I'm pretty sure you're pretty old, but maybe there's still time for you to figure it out.

Hmm...where to start.  No, I don't expect 20 and 10 from a freshman.  I expect more than 5 and 3 from a junior PG getting 32 minutes a game...and more than 1, 3pt shot made all season and better than 43% FT shooting.  Derrick played HALF (Buzz limited his minutes as best he could) of the Wisconsin game out of default due to Cadougan being suspended.  Yes, he played a good game...nothing spectacular as some of you want to try to tout.  We didn't win that game because of Derrick Wilson, okay?  Try Mayo.  Or Vander. Or DJ).  Derrick won't ever "win" you a game...he may not cause you to lose one, but that is the ceiling.

Ironically, pretty sure Dawson got 1 legitimate chance to play this year, 30 minutes, on the road at arguably one of the 3 toughest road games we had, and guard a 1st Team All Big East PG in Markel Starks (much like Jordan Taylor was first team Big 10, but not good enough to get drafted).  Starks had a good game offensively...took a season high 21 shots and got 28 points.  But, Dawson got us 12 and absolutely helped us win that game with his play in overtime...arguably our best win of the whole season.

I like a basketball player, particularly at the PG position who can actually score the ball, orchestrate some type of fast break game, and require needing to be defended on the perimeter.  It makes the job of the other 4 guys on the team much easier.  Call me crazy.  I'm pretty sure however, though, that Davante nor Jamil would call me crazy...

And I'm pretty sure your youthful ignorance is shining through brightly...I don't doubt one day you'll get a little wiser..but until...please stop making ludicrous posts on the matter.

[Tugg Speedman]

Wally has stated he wants to continue to play basketball.  Now he may have changed his mind since the second place finish, but he hasn't said anything public in that regard.

I know he said that but he has to re-think this.  He is a world class jumper right now.  A year in the weight room to improve his vertical (as opposed to riding the the bench playing basketball) and he a 7-6 to 7-7 jumper next year.  He's young, lots of jumpers peak in their mid-to late 20s.

In a year or two he can sign as a professional track athlete and make a lot more than he could in Europe playing basketball.  Should he make the Olympic team, that would mean hundreds of thousands more in appearance fees.

Again, it is all about what he wants to do but he is blessed with a world class skill.  Don't waste it riding the bench playing basketball.

[wadesworld]

Hmm...where to start.  No, I don't expect 20 and 10 from a freshman.  I expect more than 5 and 3 from a junior PG getting 32 minutes a game...and more than 1, 3pt shot made all season and better than 43% FT shooting.  Derrick played HALF (Buzz limited his minutes as best he could) of the Wisconsin game out of default due to Cadougan being suspended.  Yes, he played a good game...nothing spectacular as some of you want to try to tout.  We didn't win that game because of Derrick Wilson, okay?  Try Mayo.  Or Vander. Or DJ).  Derrick won't ever "win" you a game...he may not cause you to lose one, but that is the ceiling.

Ironically, pretty sure Dawson got 1 legitimate chance to play this year, 30 minutes, on the road at arguably one of the 3 toughest road games we had, and guard a 1st Team All Big East PG in Markel Starks (much like Jordan Taylor was first team Big 10, but not good enough to get drafted).  Starks had a good game offensively...took a season high 21 shots and got 28 points.  But, Dawson got us 12 and absolutely helped us win that game with his play in overtime...arguably our best win of the whole season.

I like a basketball player, particularly at the PG position who can actually score the ball, orchestrate some type of fast break game, and require needing to be defended on the perimeter.  It makes the job of the other 4 guys on the team much easier.  Call me crazy.  I'm pretty sure however, though, that Davante nor Jamil would call me crazy...

And I'm pretty sure your youthful ignorance is shining through brightly...I don't doubt one day you'll get a little wiser..but until...please stop making ludicrous posts on the matter.

You always bring up how many more points Derrick gave up than he scored. So using that logic, Derrick gave up 13 more points (and as BeeJay pointed out, a lot of those came with Derrick not in the game) more to the 1st team All B1G player in his one opportunity at quality minutes as a freshman in the biggest win of the season on the road over an NCAA team, while Dawson gave up 16 more points than he scored in an overtime win to an NIT team.

Do you see how flawed your logic is now? Or does it only make sense when it's you arguing the point for Dawson and when it makes Derrick appear in a positive light then it's a stupid, bad argument? I'm guessing that's what you think.

[keefe]

I think we're better known for track than for field.

There was a guy on my floor who ran track at MU. His name was Pat Smith.

[4everwarriors]

Ralph Metcalf ran back in my day

[real chili 83]

There was a guy on my floor who ran track at MU. His name was Pat Smith.

We had a dude on 10 N who threw discus.  Steve Prybramski.

[Dawson Rental]

Ralph Metcalf ran back in my day

And how dashing a figure you cut back then.

[mu-rara]

We had a dude on 10 N who threw discus.  Steve Prybramski.

Pyrambski was in my BusLaw class.  He was the target of most of Tim Reuth's barbs.  Seemed to take it well.

[GGGG]

I know he said that but he has to re-think this.  He is a world class jumper right now.  A year in the weight room to improve his vertical (as opposed to riding the the bench playing basketball) and he a 7-6 to 7-7 jumper next year.  He's young, lots of jumpers peak in their mid-to late 20s.

In a year or two he can sign as a professional track athlete and make a lot more than he could in Europe playing basketball.  Should he make the Olympic team, that would mean hundreds of thousands more in appearance fees.

Again, it is all about what he wants to do but he is blessed with a world class skill.  Don't waste it riding the bench playing basketball.

Well, you are right that it is all about what he wants to do.  So he doesn't "have to re-think" anything.

Just because you would make a decision a certain way, doesn't mean he comes to that same decision.

[NersEllenson]

You always bring up how many more points Derrick gave up than he scored. So using that logic, Derrick gave up 13 more points (and as BeeJay pointed out, a lot of those came with Derrick not in the game) more to the 1st team All B1G player in his one opportunity at quality minutes as a freshman in the biggest win of the season on the road over an NCAA team, while Dawson gave up 16 more points than he scored in an overtime win to an NIT team.

Do you see how flawed your logic is now? Or does it only make sense when it's you arguing the point for Dawson and when it makes Derrick appear in a positive light then it's a stupid, bad argument? I'm guessing that's what you think.

My argument is that all season long last year you and about 7 other idiots tried to argue Derrick was our best option.  And now that you mention it...go ahead and look at all the games last year at the PPG differential between our 32 minute per game PG and the opposition.  We got crushed all season long.  What if our PG could have made just 75% of his FTs...think that would have led to more wins?  What if he needed to be guarded all over the floor?  Think that would have made the game easier for his teammates instead of them having to play 4 on 5?  Go ahead, answer the questions..

And as for your above logic...if you really want to split hairs...one game went 5 extra minutes...and in that same game Dawson played 30 minutes...do you want to extrapolate and try to figure out how many points Jordan Taylor would have scored had the game gone to OT and Derrick played 10 more minutes than he did?  We practically can no beyond a doubt if Derrick played another 10 minutes he wouldn't have scored a point.  Why did Buzz only play Derrick 20 minutes at the Kohl - he didn't even have a back up PG...but instead had to shift minutes to Vander and Mayo?

Why do you think all of a sudden Buzz's team was so poor in Offensive Rating last season, compared to all the other seasons?  Hell the midgets were way better.  You think Mo Acker was a better defender than Derrick Wilson??  Uhh....nobody would argue that...but which team was better?  Midgets or last seasons?  Keep in mind this last season was Buzz's most experienced team as well.

You HAVE to have a PG that can score the ball, penetrate, create in transition if you want to win.  Dawson can do those things.  Derrick can't.  Period.  End of story.  The value offensively is greater than defensive - particularly at the PG position.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well, you are right that it is all about what he wants to do.  So he doesn't "have to re-think" anything.

Just because you would make a decision a certain way, doesn't mean he comes to that same decision.

He should do what he does best.  Currently he has the 36th best jump in the world this year.  Restated, 5.5 billion people live on this planet and only 35 are better high jumpers than him this year.  He will only get better with age and dedication.

You have to balance what you want to do with what you are good at.  He is world class at jumping and an average to below average D1 basketball player.  He must like jumping because he competes at it at the highest levels.  It's like Jordan quitting basketball to play baseball.  Wally is almost that good and that mediocre at his interests (high jumping and basketball).  Does anyone think Jordan made a good decision?

Maybe he should transfer to Oregon where Track & Field is a big sport and has a huge fan base.  He would feel better about jumping ans it would atract attention and fan support, as opposed to Minnesota where I'm sensing many probably look through him and not understand the significance of being a 7-4 high jumper at 20/21.

[Coleman]

Mod's can we split this thread? Keep the Ellenson stuff together, and Ners' little fantasy world in a separate thread?

Better yet, can we merge all of Ners' rants into a new Everlasting Craptistical Derrick Wilson thread?

[GGGG]

He should do what he does best.  Currently he has the 36th best jump in the world this year.  Restated, 5.5 billion people live on this planet and only 35 are better high jumpers than him this year.  He will only get better with age and dedication.

You have to balance what you want to do with what you are good at.  He is world class at jumping and an average to below average D1 basketball player.  He must like jumping because he competes at it at the highest levels.  It's like Jordan quitting basketball to play baseball.  Wally is almost that good and that mediocre at his interests (high jumping and basketball).  Does anyone think Jordan made a good decision?

Maybe he should transfer to Oregon where Track & Field is a big sport and has a huge fan base.  He would feel better about jumping ans it would atract attention and fan support, as opposed to Minnesota where I'm sensing many probably look through him and not understand the significance of being a 7-4 high jumper at 20/21.

Well write him a letter and tell him you know what's best for him.  I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

[wadesworld]

My argument is that all season long last year you and about 7 other idiots tried to argue Derrick was our best option.  And now that you mention it...go ahead and look at all the games last year at the PPG differential between our 32 minute per game PG and the opposition.  We got crushed all season long.  What if our PG could have made just 75% of his FTs...think that would have led to more wins?  What if he needed to be guarded all over the floor?  Think that would have made the game easier for his teammates instead of them having to play 4 on 5?  Go ahead, answer the questions..

And as for your above logic...if you really want to split hairs...one game went 5 extra minutes...and in that same game Dawson played 30 minutes...do you want to extrapolate and try to figure out how many points Jordan Taylor would have scored had the game gone to OT and Derrick played 10 more minutes than he did?  We practically can no beyond a doubt if Derrick played another 10 minutes he wouldn't have scored a point.  Why did Buzz only play Derrick 20 minutes at the Kohl - he didn't even have a back up PG...but instead had to shift minutes to Vander and Mayo?

Why do you think all of a sudden Buzz's team was so poor in Offensive Rating last season, compared to all the other seasons?  Hell the midgets were way better.  You think Mo Acker was a better defender than Derrick Wilson??  Uhh....nobody would argue that...but which team was better?  Midgets or last seasons?  Keep in mind this last season was Buzz's most experienced team as well.

You HAVE to have a PG that can score the ball, penetrate, create in transition if you want to win.  Dawson can do those things.  Derrick can't.  Period.  End of story.  The value offensively is greater than defensive - particularly at the PG position.

I have been commenting on Derrick's performance at Wisconsin in 2011. Again, I'm not sure where these long rants about last season are going. We get it, you think Dawson was a better option than Derrick. I disagree. Buzz disagreed.

You are really suggesting that had Derrick played more in the UW game that Taylor would've somehow gone off, despite BeeJay pointing out that Taylor was least effective when Derrick was in the game? You sure do use some interesting logic to try to knock Derrick. Not sure how you come to these conclusions, but man, they are interesting. I agree that Derrick wouldn't have scored. Guess what? Not every player is asked to carry the offensive load. Are you blaming the Miami Heat's failure to win the championship on Mario Chalmers because the pg on the team wasn't carrying them offensively? Should Chalmers have been counted on to be a scoring threat and the Heat have taken the ball out of Bosh's, Wade's, and LeBron's hands to see if Chalmers could've scored more? Maybe Spoelstra is an idiot and trying to get the big 3 the ball is a terrible gameplan. Just let Chalmers score, he is your pg after all. Wait, no. Derrick wouldn't have scored because he shouldn't have been counted on to score. A backup freshman pg playing his first significant minutes in college basketball won't be asked to do the same things Todd Mayo and Jae Crowder are asked to do. Again, I know that's a hard concept for you to understand, but asking the freshman backup point guard to score all the points would not be a very successful strategy. So why limit him to 20 minutes? Well, he wasn't prepared to play even 5, so I'd say he did a damn good job in his 20, and you apparently can't see that. Lack of understanding of the game. It's okay. Maybe you'll see controlling the basketball and defending the other team's best players are necessary to win the game, and Derrick did exactly what he was asked to do (not by you, be jade he didn't score!) and did it very well.

Ners: "But we were 17-15! We missed the NIT! We have Magic Johnson on our bench! (That right there says everything we need to know about your basketball knowledge.) Derrick can't score!"

Save us the time. I just responded for you. Nothing to do with the UW game, what is being discussed. If you can't argue something successfully, just change the subject! Ners at his finest.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well write him a letter and tell him you know what's best for him.  I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Yeah, I know advising someone to do what they do best is a radical idea.

[GGGG]

Yeah, I know advising someone to do what they do best is a radical idea.

Advising someone you don't know, and have never met, about what they *should* do is dumb.