"I'm taking the basketball players over the athletes"

[RyanConroy]

But yeah...Wojo can do whatever he'd like in my opinion. Let's just win some games and have some fun basketball to watch.

[keefe]

Ding ding ding

This guy gets it

Sure. A bunch of white guys defining racism...

[RyanConroy]

Sure. A bunch of white guys defining racism...

Haha, yeah, this is the best point made on the subject.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When all people actually treat each other equally.

So yes, it will never end

And the cottage industry will go on forever....

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup. There isn't serious debate as to if discrimination actually exists in the U.S, as it's easily measured by an array of statistics dealing with employment, education, resources, etc. And unless people of color are inherently less likely to succeed than white people (obviously not true) then, yes, blame should and will continue to be assigned.

I think the reason this debate angers so many is because people see allegations of racism/discrimination as an attack on their own professional and personal accomplishments, i.e. "I worked hard and deserve to be where I am today." All of our accomplishments deserve to be celebrated, because life is never easy, but it's important to understand that millions of people were/are rarely, if ever, given opportunities to have similar success.

smh


Define people of color.  Asians?  East Indians?

When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc.  What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems.  Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there. 

Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level.  Awesome.  In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc.  Do you have the right education level, experience, etc?  Can you do the job?  How do you think about things?  Etc, etc.  I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.

[Pakuni]

Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level.  Awesome.  In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc.  Do you have the right education level, experience, etc?  Can you do the job?  How do you think about things?  Etc, etc.  I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.

It would be naive to believe that someone's ability to obtain the right education and experience isn't often affected by the color of his/her skin.
A white kid growing up in Rancho Santa Margarita is going to have far more opportunity to get the right education and experience than a black kid growing up in Crenshaw or a Latino kid growing up in East LA.

[brandx]

smh


Define people of color.  Asians?  East Indians?

When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc.  What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems.  Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there. 

Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level.  Awesome.  In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc.  Do you have the right education level, experience, etc?  Can you do the job?  How do you think about things?  Etc, etc.  I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.

30 years ago that was not the norm. It still is not the case in many, many situations. The fact that you do things right is great, but in the big picture, it is only one piece of the puzzle. Until people are hired strictly on qualifications, the problem will exist. There will be no need for Affirmative Action. There will be no need for quotas for Fire, Police, etc. if hiring has no racial or religious basis.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

how many of you cats were at the White Privilege Conference in Madison last week?  We coulda had a backyard beer summit with Hoopaloop.

[Lennys Tap]

The fact that you do things right is great, but in the big picture, it is only one piece of the puzzle.

That's part of the "shtick". "I don't discriminate. In fact, I'm a minority in my neighborhood." Meanwhile, he yearns for the 1950s, the good old days before the Civil Rights Act, women's rights, gay rights, etc.. You knows, those days when a white guy had a fair shot in the USA.

[Coleman]

Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.

[Lennys Tap]

Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.

It's a hard world for some - too few traditionals.

[mattyv1908]

I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.

On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race.  While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.

[RyanConroy]

When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc.  What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems.  Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there.  

Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level.  Awesome.  In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc.  Do you have the right education level, experience, etc?  Can you do the job?  How do you think about things?  Etc, etc.  I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.

Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.

The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.

But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.

It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.

[mattyv1908]

Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.

The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.

But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.

It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.

So how do you fix the problem?

I don't think anyone honestly believes otherwise, but there is always a lot of problem identifying that goes on and very little problem solving.  We've tried throwing massive amounts of money at the issues with almost zero long term positive results for decades.

[RyanConroy]

I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.

On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race.  While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.

According to the 2010 census: 9.9% of white people live in poverty, while 28.4% of black people live in poverty.

There are two possible explanations I can see for this. One, white people are better workers than black people. Two, centuries of oppression against black people in the U.S. Common sense (as well as biology) tells us the former isn't true.

[RyanConroy]

So how do you fix the problem?

I don't think anyone honestly believes otherwise, but there is always a lot of problem identifying that goes on and very little problem solving.  We've tried throwing massive amounts of money at the issues with almost zero long term positive results for decades.

I don't agree that sufficient resources have been allocated to address the issues. But encouraging everybody to be compassionate towards their fellow Americans would be a good start. (not suggesting you aren't compassionate here)

[mattyv1908]

You should probably revisit your idea of adequate spending then.

There's roughly 50 million American's below the poverty line ($11,000 single adult, $23,000 family of four).  If you count every American as a single adult and assume that there is zero income being brought in among those 50 million we could simply send checks out in the amount of 550 billion dollars and we'd completely eliminate poverty for the year.

Every year, the United States spends over 525 billion on poverty related programs, yet hasn't reduced the number of people in poverty at all.  In fact the number has increased over the last five years.  We simply do not count the money spent as reducing poverty.

If our country could take the same 550 billion dollars and send every single man, woman and child below the poverty line a check for $11,000 each we would have nobody in this country living in poverty every year, yet somehow the same amount of money is being spend on poverty related programs and we are not spending adaquately on the problem???

[avid1010]

I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.

On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race.  While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.

i felt this same way until i spent two years researching the hell out of it...from brown v. board of ed to current day.  in some cases common sense says it's money, not race, but overall the statistics don't play out.  white flight, nixon appointing judges that refused to support forced busing, etc...there's a reason many in the black community feel like they would have been better under plessy v. ferguson rather than brown v. board of ed.  spend a little time listening to howard fuller on the MU campus...

congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve."  i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race. 

[RyanConroy]

You should probably revisit your idea of adequate spending then.

There's roughly 50 million American's below the poverty line ($11,000 single adult, $23,000 family of four).  If you count every American as a single adult and assume that there is zero income being brought in among those 50 million we could simply send checks out in the amount of 550 billion dollars and we'd completely eliminate poverty for the year.

Every year, the United States spends over 525 billion on poverty related programs, yet hasn't reduced the number of people in poverty at all.  In fact the number has increased over the last five years.  We simply do not count the money spent as reducing poverty.

If our country could take the same 550 billion dollars and send every single man, woman and child below the poverty line a check for $11,000 each we would have nobody in this country living in poverty every year, yet somehow the same amount of money is being spend on poverty related programs and we are not spending adaquately on the problem???

Longer response later, but:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/13/if-the-us-spends-550-billion-on-poverty-how-can-there-still-be-poverty-in-the-us/2/

[Pakuni]

congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve."  i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race.  

I'm probably more on your side in this debate than not, but let's be fair to Ryan:

- there are generations of urban males not even looking for jobs. This isn't a result of their race - and Ryan never claimed it was - it's a result of a system which fails to prepare people for the work, then fails to encourage and reward people who work in low-income jobs.
- he didn't reference the "Bell Curve," he referenced one of its authors in relation to one of his latter books, "Coming Apart," which is about the problems within the white lower class.

[mattyv1908]

i felt this same way until i spent two years researching the hell out of it...from brown v. board of ed to current day.  in some cases common sense says it's money, not race, but overall the statistics don't play out.  white flight, nixon appointing judges that refused to support forced busing, etc...there's a reason many in the black community feel like they would have been better under plessy v. ferguson rather than brown v. board of ed.  spend a little time listening to howard fuller on the MU campus...

congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve."  i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race. 

Yeah, because our politicians in Washington D.C. have such a nuanced understanding of this country and race...

[mattyv1908]

Longer response later, but:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/13/if-the-us-spends-550-billion-on-poverty-how-can-there-still-be-poverty-in-the-us/2/

As a Forbes subscriber I remember reading that article when it was published while I didn't specifically reference it earlier but used the general numbers as a guide in what I was trying to convey.

Reality is we could probably just send 300 billion dollars of checks to the same effect.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.

Some of us walk the walk, too many people talk the talk.  I don't live in a white gated community like so many of my liberal friends who talk a big game, but come up woefully short.  We chose to live where we did, turns out we are a minority in our town.  When picking a neighborhood, same deal...we are minorities and it isn't close....we chose the neighborhood based on many things, whom lived next door or across the street did not matter one hill of beans.  Love where we live, love our neighbors, the schools, etc.  So we're a minority...no big deal to us.


Some people suffer from guilt all the time, in fact if they don't feel guilty about something they don't feel well.   If people want to go through life feeling ashamed for the actions of other people, have at it.  If people want to blame all Germans for the holocaust, that's on them...I'm not playing.  No different than any other group.  I'll hold someone accountable for THEIR actions, not those committed by someone 200 or 2000 years ago.

[RyanConroy]

As a Forbes subscriber I remember reading that article when it was published while I didn't specifically reference it earlier but used the general numbers as a guide in what I was trying to convey.

Reality is we could probably just send 300 billion dollars of checks to the same effect.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you used the article for your response, just thought it partially addressed your point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.

I understand it just fine...I've been around the block.  It exists, no one is denying it.  The issue for me is at what level does it still exist and how many people out there are furthering its existence for their own benefit.  Nothing worse than seeing a bunch of "leaders" tell a community they cannot succeed, they cannot prevail, they have no hope whatsoever (which is all BS) in order to coddle support, votes, dollars, etc.  It becomes a vicious cycle and a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Tell a person enough times they have no chance and must rely on Uncle Sammy to survive and people start to believe it.  Tell a person they can be more like Ben Carson, they might start to believe that, too, but that isn't the message nor is it ever going to be.