"I'm taking the basketball players over the athletes"

[ChicosBailBonds]

This. 99% of us Scoopers were born on third base.

Now, getting to home plate is still an accomplishment. It takes hard work, intelligence, and perseverance. But Chicos, make no mistake, you and I were both born on third base. If you are an American white male with access to a college education, you have a massive leg up on 75% of the rest of the population in our country, and a massive leg up over 99% of the rest of the world.

Many, many, people in our country have to start from home plate, and then advance four bases to get where we are. Them are facts. Do I feel guilty about it, as you suggest? No. But let's not deny the reality of the situation, and instead work towards a more equitable playing field.

I'm surprised you didn't use the Lenny old stand by and say 100%...all...everyone...always...forever.

Sorry, 99% weren't born on 3rd base.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  You comment about 75% is also fraudulent, let alone completely made up out of your arse.   So is your 99% comment over the rest of the world. 

There is so much hyperbole in your paragraph here based on emotions and no actual facts, it is frightening.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Prejudice is not the domain of any creed, complexion, or community. We are all equally guilty.

Bingo....unfortunately too many people don't believe this.  What's worse, they preach that it isn't possible and it only divides people further. 


I'll disagree with your comments, Keefe, on venom and race.  The race card is played by people for a reason, because they have nothing else to play.  If you disagree with the POTUS, you are racist.  If you don't want Cuonzo Martin, you are racist (despite the fact you would do summersaults for Shaka Smart...go figure).  It's the lowest of the low reactionary defense that people throw out there now and it is done all the time.  It is beyond pathetic. 

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

You cannot dismiss differences because they exist. Personally, I have chosen to celebrate the differences. Living around the world, I dove head first into the cultural waters. Another expat once asked why I 'wasted' time learning local languages. Cultural imperialism has many articulations - expecting a Javanese in Jakarta to speak English says more about the guest than the host. 

Keefe, I always suspected you picked up some languages along your way around the globe.  I was fortunate to be an exchange student in France while in high school and it changed my whole life view.  As an engineering student I was very disappointed at Marquette that I couldn't take any foreign languages as part of the non-engineering electives.  I thought it to be very short-sighted.  (I don't know if that has changed?)  I did take a French 2 during my 1st semester at MU, but that was only due to a registration accident that I was not alowed to continue anytime during the next 7 semesters.

Somehow, somewhere I picked up a theme from the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles (of all places) that if you want to understand a culture you need to learn the language as it's the key.  So I learned conversational Spanish (which was easy after French) & Polish (I have to speak to the in-laws somehow).  I started to learn conversational Chinese until I was laid-off as there was no point to continue.  I'll go back to it if I get another job that will take me back there.  The Spanish helped me land two engineering jobs in the future to boot.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

CBB, it is true that many paint with too broad of a brush. Lenny trying to tell your story for you is a prime example of that. But aren't you doing the same damn thing?

Joe Blow has his LCD TV, iPhone and foodstamps coming out of his ears.

There are many, I would argue a majority, of people on food stamps who are working tirelessly to provide for their families. While some abuse the system, to paint them all as "Joe Blow" is not factual and only promotes what you are fighting against.

To many of these talkers don't do charitable works, they don't roll up their sleeves and can't wait to provide the fish but never some accountability in forcing some folks to learn to fish.

Many of us hippie liberals recognize the fallacy of throwing more fish at the problem and work in organizations that seek to "teach people how to fish." For example, I volunteer at a day shelter that offers free classes on resume writing, computer skills, and job interviewing and try to connect people with jobs that match their skill set. Just because there a some "talkers that live in gated communities," it doesn't discredit the rest who are in the trenches working to fight poverty.

I'll disagree with your comments, Keefe, on venom and race.  The race card is played by people for a reason, because they have nothing else to play.  If you disagree with the POTUS, you are racist.  If you don't want Cuonzo Martin, you are racist (despite the fact you would do summersaults for Shaka Smart...go figure).  It's the lowest of the low reactionary defense that people throw out there now and it is done all the time.  It is beyond pathetic.

The race card is used more quickly and incorrectly than it should be. But if you don't think racism and privilege don't exist in this country, I don't know what to tell you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM

I participated in a study similar to this one and found similar results. I'm curious what you think about it.

[avid1010]

imho, the day i quit with the "pull yourself up" BS and realized there are plenty that are trying really hard in a system that makes it very difficult...was the day i became a much better and happier person.  i guess we're all a part of our environment...but i count my blessings every night that i don't have the "just pull yourself up by your boot straps" mindset.  i'll error on the side of compassion, and know that my compassion does nothing to enable or add to our country's poverty issues. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

#1 The truth is, no 2 people on the planet are born in "equal" situations. I have no anecdotal evidence, I'm just looking at the facts.

#2 The goal for American society should be to provide a clear path of upward mobility for those who chose to take it. You want a better life? Here is how it's done, step 1, step 2, step 3. You can make it!

#3 That's it.

The problem is, #2 is REALLY HARD to achieve.

- On one hand, the free market is excellent at determining the "winners" and "losers" without any prejudice. Be the best at something, work hard, you'll be successful.

- On the other hand, there are still some systemic issues in this country that greatly influence a person's ability to be upwardly mobile. Not everybody is as evolved as Chicos. Not every school district is doing a good enough job. etc. etc. 

- Also, institutional/generational wealth isn't necessarily contributing to the idea that hard work is all you need. Money begets money, begets money, begets money, etc. It's a club that is hard to crack, even for the middle class. Add to that the bureaucracy of big time politics, and the country is full of red tape and back door deals.

So what's the solution?
Honestly, I have no idea.

But, I can tell you that the people in this thread spouting off tired, oversimplified political cliches are a huge part of the problem.

Cut the BS. Use logic, common sense, compassion and honesty. Don't use "talking points" and cliches for either side of the aisle and expect something good to happen. It won't.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny,  I understand you and Chicos don't see eye to eye.

That being said, you being critical is counterproductive to this argument and represents what's wrong with this discussion.  One of the main problems of today is that in past generations successful people were looked highly upon while today they are vilified for it.

Matt - I am a great celebrator of people's successes - that includes Chico's. But when success comes without a scintilla of humility or gratitude it loses it shine IMO. Those truly successful in life (not just monetarily either) don't have to constantly pound their chests and shout about how wonderful they are.

[tower912]

....or how everybody else is a loser.   

[keefe]

#2 The goal for American society should be to provide a clear path of upward mobility for those who chose to take it. You want a better life? Here is how it's done, step 1, step 2, step 3. You can make it!

The beauty of America is that there is a clear path for upward mobility. And it is entirely up to the individual if he chooses to accept responsibility for himself and his destiny.

My maternal grandparents were born in this country of immigrants. Their parents arrived with nothing but worked their asses off to turn desert into productive farm land. Nobody gave them a penny - they earned everything they got in this life.

My great grandfather lived past 100 and, despite losing everything to the internment, often spoke of the opportunity available in America. But he also underscored the fact that hard work was essential to success and the most important component in a meritocracy is education. Everyone of his children was graduated from university and most earned advanced degrees.

People can speak of institutional prejudice but I can assure you that being Asian at the turn of the 20th Century in America meant that your opportunities were far more circumscribed by race than matters stand today. But Americans of Japanese ancestry embraced education and applied a ferocious work ethic with a responsibility-based value system to achieve incredible success against overwhelming structural barriers.

Issei and Nisei overcame daunting odds in the first half of the 20th Century to achieve financial and social security. And as a group, they lost 50 years of hard work with the stroke of a pen. They had latched on to the table scraps in the 1890's and turned wasteland in California, Washington, and Oregon into the most productive agricultural property in North America. And make no mistake, much of the rationale behind the Internment was a cynical land grab by Caucasians.

Collectively, Americans of Japanese ancestry do not speak of the Internment. The books written on the subject by Nisei and Sansei witnesses offer more introspection than recrimination. The Internment has never been a badge of honor or a Realpolitik bargaining chip. Instead, I think it is seen as part of the price of admission to the American Theatre.

I had earlier mentioned dignity. I often think of how those internees had been stripped of everything but their dignity and managed to regain their place in America by applying the same proven and trusted principles that had worked so well for the first 50 years here. They did so without anger or bitterness. They simply got on with it. The most simple, straight forward is often the most elegant.

In an interesting post-script, after the war, four US Army Lieutenants went into town in uniform for haircuts and dinner. Each had lost a limb in combat and was wearing a Silver Star. One had the Congressional Medal of Honor.

They went into the town barbershop but were told they weren't welcome. They then tried to find a restaurant but were again turned away as "their kind" was not served. They ended up returning to base and eating at the Officers' Club. The Lt missing his left forearm was my uncle while the man wearing the Congressional Medal of Honor was Dan Inouye.  

[Coleman]

I'm surprised you didn't use the Lenny old stand by and say 100%...all...everyone...always...forever.

Sorry, 99% weren't born on 3rd base.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  You comment about 75% is also fraudulent, let alone completely made up out of your arse.   So is your 99% comment over the rest of the world.  

There is so much hyperbole in your paragraph here based on emotions and no actual facts, it is frightening.

99% of Scoop is white, middle to upper-middle class males with a college degree, no? Probably grew up in a great school system, either a Catholic school or a nice suburban public school district. Probably had food security and a roof over their head. How is that false? How is that hyperbole?

Maybe I'm wrong. But I guarantee you that number is no lower than 90%

And if you really think that we weren't born into a better situation than 75% of the rest of the world, you need to open your eyes.

[RyanConroy]

Does your theory include only two outcomes like your previous post?  

I don't know how Dr. Condoleeza Rice was able to do it, or Dr. Ben Carson, or millions of others.  Fortunately, they didn't listen to the BS that is continually served to people from other people that merely want to control them, count on their votes and tell them they can't succeed in life because everyone is against them.  

God Bless those folks and others that said screw that noise.  

Care to submit your own outcome?

You continually cite individual examples and anecdotes. Three people of color you know and a former Secretary of State are NOT indicative of a population consisting of tens of millions of people.

The sad part of this debate is that you're incapable of weighing other ideas than your own because your ego is so inflated. Your viewpoints, whether you realize this or not, are founded on your own experiences. You think you're part of a special, elite group of hard workers that could succeed regardless of upbringing or challenge. But you have no idea what it's like to survive without being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

[RyanConroy]

My argument is nothing of the kind.  Some people are part of the lucky sperm club, some are born tall (do you know taller people get better jobs...should we lob off a few inches on people in the future?), some are born smarter, some are born bald, or male, or female, or left handed, or handicapped.   My daughter has a disability, do you think I tell her every day what jobs in life she cannot have because of her disability?  F no.

But that is what one side does all the time to people.  "You can't succeed because you are oppressed"..."you can't succeed because someone doesn't want you to."  It's crap.  Of course some people have it better than others and some worse than others, but preaching constantly about the lack of hope, the inability to succeed, that hard work will get you nowhere is absolute B.S., yet we have "leaders" that do this all the time and are supported. 

That's where I'm coming from. 

You're the only poster who has referenced "preaching" about a "lack of hope" and "inability to succeed." Frankly, I think individuals from tougher backgrounds are generally far stronger and more resilient than those who aren't. And nobody outside of teabaggers ever suggest otherwise.

This has NOTHING to due with work ethic. This has EVERYTHING to due with basic human fairness.

[RyanConroy]

Again, you have zero idea what you are talking about, but you keep digging yourself deeper as if you did.  Living in Panama, my mom and her children (my sister and I) attacked in our "luxurious" one bedroom apartment where the front door was essentially chopped down by a person with a machete and part of the apartment burned.  Fortunately, neighbors (we lived with the Panamanian people, not in the embassy district or canal zone) bandied together.  My mom still has the police reports, etc.  Chilling to read.  All kinds of fun embassy stuff we had to do as a result because its not too cool for either the US gov't or the Panamanian gov't.  So please, you have no idea but you keep blathering away like you do with your generalities.  

Peru, was a different story, we did live in the embassy district.  Yet we saw REAL POVERTY all the time, unlike what happens here in the States.  You want poverty, don't go looking in this country because you haven't seen a damn thing.  You saw it daily.  REAL poverty, not the poverty we have in this country where Joe Blow has his LCD TV, iPhone and foodstamps coming out of his ears.  I'm talking REAL POVERTY....people dying on the streets...literally.  You have no concept of what I'm talking about, because if you did you wouldn't make such outlandish statements.

Too many people talk the talk and don't walk the walk.  Activism based bitching about the rich to pay more, or bagging on corporations is their calling card.  Fantastic...pat yourselves on the back.  To many of these talkers don't do charitable works, they don't roll up their sleeves and can't wait to provide the fish but never some accountability in forcing some folks to learn to fish.  

I'll help who I can, but while some of these same talkers complain about how tough the world is while punching in the passcode to their gated community, their 99% lily white neighborhoods, never opening up their checkbook for charity or volunteering a second of their time....I don't have a whole lot of love for them.  Sorry, I find those people hypocrites at the highest levels.  I have a whole lot of love for those that want to be helped and work their butts off for it.  There are people that do it all the time in this country (white, black, Hispanic, Asian, male, female, etc.).  God bless them all, I enjoy helping these people.   Unfortunately there are hucksters out there that don't want that to happen and make money on keeping people down and preaching to them that they can't make it.  Support whom you wish, but don't pretend to know a second of my life since you didn't live it.

Congrats for all this. I've lived in Bolivia myself. Didn't inform how I feel about race relations in the United States. I currently live in a NY neighborhood in which whites make up 1 in 10 individuals. Doesn't make me feel superior to other people. But that probably has something to do with my own comfortable upbringing, during which I was taught not to assume life circumstances are at exactly the same level of challenging for everybody.

[keefe]

Keefe, I always suspected you picked up some languages along your way around the globe.  I was fortunate to be an exchange student in France while in high school and it changed my whole life view.  As an engineering student I was very disappointed at Marquette that I couldn't take any foreign languages as part of the non-engineering electives.  I thought it to be very short-sighted.  (I don't know if that has changed?)  I did take a French 2 during my 1st semester at MU, but that was only due to a registration accident that I was not alowed to continue anytime during the next 7 semesters.

Somehow, somewhere I picked up a theme from the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles (of all places) that if you want to understand a culture you need to learn the language as it's the key.  So I learned conversational Spanish (which was easy after French) & Polish (I have to speak to the in-laws somehow).  I started to learn conversational Chinese until I was laid-off as there was no point to continue.  I'll go back to it if I get another job that will take me back there.  The Spanish helped me land two engineering jobs in the future to boot.

Nutmeg

I grew up in Tokyo speaking Japanese. In fact, the best thing my parents did was put me in the Japanese schools for K-3 rather than an international school. I got picked on at first because I was different but was readily brought into the fold by classmates who saw the person and not the hapa gaijin.

I have spent most of my life living in Asia so I picked up Mandarin and Bahasa along the way. Nothing engenders friendship better than conversing in the other fellow's tongue. And if one wishes to get off the beaten path then knowing the local dialect is essential.

I found that in business I was a candidate for many opportunities because I had not just linguistic but cultural fluency. One of the biggest disruptions for an international office is having an expat throw in the towel because of inability to adapt to the local culture. My wife and I both spoke numerous languages and both GE and Microsoft knew that we were safe bets for expat assignments.

In Japan, shopkeepers would always speak to me in Japanese while ignoring my spouse. I would play dumb while my blond-haired blue-eyed wife from Thiensville would answer in fluent Japanese. It never failed to render them speechless. I miss those days.

[RyanConroy]

Last post on this:

What I care about is all people being afforded the same level of opportunity. I don't think some people should have to perspire to work hard labor 60 hours a week to support a family while others are born into families in which they could never work a day in their lives if desired.

Like it or not, vast disparities in opportunity exist in the U.S., and minority populations are FAR more likely to see the short end of that stick. Until that's changed, we have both racial and economic problems here. And that NEVER means a person NEEDS to be given a fair shake by our country. It means they deserve it.

[keefe]

This has NOTHING to due with work ethic. This has EVERYTHING to due with basic human fairness.

Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.

As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.

Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The beauty of America is that there is a clear path for upward mobility. And it is entirely up to the individual if he chooses to accept responsibility for himself and his destiny.

I really WANT to believe that.

I'm just not so sure it can be boiled down to that.  

I'm not a big believer in socialism or redistribution of wealth, but the growing wealth gap is a concern to me, and I think the system in it's current form, isn't working as well as it should. We need to make some tweeks.

[keefe]

I really WANT to believe that.

I'm just not so sure it can be boiled down to that.  

I'm not a big believer in socialism or redistribution of wealth, but the growing wealth gap is a concern to me, and I think the system in it's current form, isn't working as well as it should. We need to make some tweeks.

How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?

Ya, just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done... clearly there are talented people and cultures that have survived and overcome many obstacles.

I would just like to remove some of those obstacles in an effort to help people move up. The system isn't broken, but I'd like to see it tweeked (by people smarter than me).

[Coleman]

How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?

I don't presume to more about Japanese-Americans than you, but I think the bolded word has a lot to do with it.

[RyanConroy]

Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.

As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.

Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.

"Life isn't fair" is not a satisfactory explanation for anything. If something can be made more fair, it should be.

It's terrific that Japanese Americans have fared well. But they're not inherently harder workers than other ethnic groups. Nor are they "better" in any other way.

[RyanConroy]

Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.

As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.

Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.

[keefe]

"Life isn't fair" is not a satisfactory explanation for anything. If something can be made more fair, it should be.

Life will be as fair as human nature allows it to be.

[keefe]

It's terrific that Japanese Americans have fared well. But they're not inherently harder workers than other ethnic groups. Nor are they "better" in any other way.

I did not say they are inherently harder working. Nor did I say they are better.

So what is your real point?

[Pakuni]

How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?

With all due respect to the accomplishments of the Japanese community, the long-term effects of the prejudice they've faced in this country vastly pales in comparison to a few centuries of slavery followed by a 100+ years of systematic discrimination that worked to deprive an entire race of their basic civil rights.
The Japanese-American and African-American experiences in the U.S. are not remotely comparable.