2014-15 NFC North/NFL Thread

[muarmy81]

That took longer than I expected.

Ha!  That's what I'm here for...keeping everyone on task!  Let the arrows fly!

[MerrittsMustache]

Ironic you mention Rodgers. 

It would have been interesting if Rodgers had come out prior to the draft, dropped to Round 4, was taken by the Packers and everything else in his career went as is. I wonder if execs would have considered him an outlier or if Sam's announcement wouldn't have had an effect on his draft stock.

[akmarq]

If I was checked out by a gay man in the shower, my main concern would be why he had such low standards.   I've showered after working out at the Y for years.   Statistically speaking, at some point there was a gay guy in the shower room at the same time I was.    Stunningly, there have been no incidents   

I used plenty of co-ed showers in Europe. World continues to spin.

[NavinRJohnson]

But he's not a mediocre talent.  He was the freaking Defensive Player of the Year in the SEC.  That doesn't automatically project to an NFL star, but this isn't some scrub.  He was talked about as a 2nd or 3rd round pick and now he's suddenly a fringe prospect.  I just saw this morning that CBS Sports dropped him 70 spots in their player rankings.  He was a top 75 prospect prior to all of this.  If that doesn't prove out that this is a big story, then your head is in the sand.

So he's about a 4th round pick. How is that a fringe prospect? Where has anyone said he's some scrub. sEC D player of the year? thats great, and Ty Detmer won a Heisman trophy? Doesnt mean a damn thing in terms of translating to success as an NFl player. Its turned into a story because if he isnt drafted in the first or second round, people will say its becase he's gay, much as you are doing. If he's a first or second round talent, potential pro bowl caliber player, he will be drafted in the first or second round.

Phil Emery came out with a pretty fair and positive statement about it all, which is encouraging as a Bears fan.  These bigoted GMs coming out and saying he's an overrated or not very good player are an absolute joke.

Or there is also the distinct possibility, they are giving their honest opinion on his abilities. they cant really win, can they? You obviously have your mind made up, and certainly know more about talent evaluation than they do, so there is only one possible explanation why they would say he isn't that good, but they're the bigoted ones.


The people who "care" or will choose to make something of this are those who want to rush and defend this guy who doesn't really need defending, for self serving reasons -  in order to pat themselves on the back and make others see how enlightened they are compared to others of us who simply don't care one way or the other. If the Packers draft him and he can play, I'll be happy. If he can't, I won't. His sexual orientation means absolutely nothing to me.

[JWags85]

So he's about a 4th round pick. How is that a fringe prospect? Where has anyone said he's some scrub. sEC D player of the year? thats great, and Ty Detmer won a Heisman trophy? Doesnt mean a damn thing in terms of translating to success as an NFl player. Its turned into a story because if he isnt drafted in the first or second round, people will say its becase he's gay, much as you are doing. If he's a first or second round talent, potential pro bowl caliber player, he will be drafted in the first or second round.

You called him a mediocre talent, if that means something other than scrub, maybe it was lost in translation.  Lumped him with a guy who isn't in the NBA anymore cause he's not good enough, and never was any good to begin with.  People suddenly rating him a 5-7th round pick (which is easily in "potentially undrafted" realm) would make him a fringe prospect.  Would you have called Ty Detmer a "mediocre talent"?

Or there is also the distinct possibility, they are giving their honest opinion on his abilities. they cant really win, can they? You obviously have your mind made up, and certainly know more about talent evaluation than they do, so there is only one possible explanation why they would say he isn't that good, but they're the bigoted ones.

I don't think he's a top 2 round pick, and if he falls to the 4th, I don't think "fair" people would be up in arms, but if suddenly he's not drafted or has slide to the very last day, then all of a sudden, it makes you go "hmm".  You look at any of the pre-draft writeups of him leading up to the announcement and he was spoken very highly of by scouts.  Undersized, projected to move to an OLB, but not an uncommon situation.  His track record spoke for himself.  Now all of a sudden the quotes are "not a very good football player" "very overrated".  This about a guy who won awards, not someone who is projected high based on intangibles or potential.  It smacks of making excuses on why to pass on a guy.

I haven't made up my mind on anything except for the fact that people who think this isn't a big story aren't paying attention to the rumblings from front offices in response, and that is what I was referring to in those quotes.  Its not a big deal on a personal level, but its significance in the NFL landscape is still very much up for debate.

[jesmu84]

So he's about a 4th round pick. How is that a fringe prospect? Where has anyone said he's some scrub. sEC D player of the year? thats great, and Ty Detmer won a Heisman trophy? Doesnt mean a damn thing in terms of translating to success as an NFl player. Its turned into a story because if he isnt drafted in the first or second round, people will say its becase he's gay, much as you are doing. If he's a first or second round talent, potential pro bowl caliber player, he will be drafted in the first or second round.

Navin - I applaud you for not letting his comments affect you and your opinion of him at all. I think the media will make more of this than they should. But I also think it will 100% play into the minds of GMs. You just stated that he's about a 4th round pick. However, he was a top 75 pick before coming out, and suddenly dropped 70 spots? That's not a coincidence. It just can't be a coincidence.

Also, wasn't Ty Detmer a first round pick? I fail to see your argument there. Sam was obviously never a first round pick, but he was mostly a top 75 pick before the comments. Further saying if he's a first or second round talent means he's a potential pro bowl caliber player and that means he'll be drafted in the 1st or 2nd? That's a load of bullocks. I know you have a good amount of NFL knowledge. Lots of first and second round picks aren't pro bowl caliber. And lots of pro bowl caliber aren't drafted in the 1st and 2nd. Lots of hits and misses across the draft and their realized or unrealized NFL success.

We can't know his NFL success yet. And if he's drafted, we can't make any judgement on where he's chosen relative to his possible NFL success. What we can say is that since he came out, his draft status has taken at least a mild hit.

[DegenerateDish]

Earl Bennett is the all time leader in receptions in the SEC. Just sayin.

I don't care who Sam wants to have intercourse with. He's a tweener, jacked up his sack total in garbage time against inferior opponents (look it up). He's a marginal prospect, mid round pick.

[NavinRJohnson]

Also, wasn't Ty Detmer a first round pick? I fail to see your argument there.

Packers drafted him in the 9th round, which is my point...college awards, whether Heisman or SEC defensive player of the year, don't mean anything in terms of predicting success as an NFL player, as someone earlier tried to argue (somewhat).

Further saying if he's a first or second round talent means he's a potential pro bowl caliber player and that means he'll be drafted in the 1st or 2nd? That's a load of bullocks. I know you have a good amount of NFL knowledge. Lots of first and second round picks aren't pro bowl caliber. And lots of pro bowl caliber aren't drafted in the 1st and 2nd. Lots of hits and misses across the draft and their realized or unrealized NFL success.

Of course that's true. What I believe I said was, "1st or 2nd round talent and potential pro bowl caliber player." I guess I thought in the eyes of NFL scouts and GMs was implied. Of course they don't all work out, but every GM who has ever made a pick in the first round, thinks he's taking a potential pro bowl player.

[NavinRJohnson]

Earl Bennett is the all time leader in receptions in the SEC. Just sayin.

I don't care who Sam wants to have intercourse with. He's a tweener, jacked up his sack total in garbage time against inferior opponents (look it up). He's a marginal prospect, mid round pick.

Bears should draft him to replace McClellan. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Bears should draft him to replace McClellan. 

No more undersized DE for the Bears thanks. However that being said if he is available in the 3rd-4th round range I would love the bears to draft him as an OLB. Thats an area that needs help even if Briggs is in the lineup.

[DegenerateDish]

Bears should draft him to replace McClellan. 

When I saw Sam's draft bio, first player I thought of was John Theiry.

McClellin isn't too far off though.

[NavinRJohnson]

I just saw this morning that CBS Sports dropped him 70 spots in their player rankings.  He was a top 75 prospect prior to all of this.  If that doesn't prove out that this is a big story, then your head is in the sand.

BTW, let's not let facts get in the way of a juicy narrative. Were he the only player to move in those rankings, there might be something to it. This from CBS...

NFLDraftScout.com has Sam ranked as the No. 110 overall prospect. An initial drop to 160 from 90 on Monday morning was part of a comprehensive adjustment in the rankings leading up to next week's scouting combine that generated movement among hundreds of prospects. In all, 65 of the top 350 prospects were affected by the rankings update...

To suggest that this drop occurred overnight because of his announcement is ludicrous. of course it would also require that NFL Draft Scout and CBS are part of the bigoted GM class.   BTW, they are prospect rankings, not a mock draft. They rate players as football players, not where they expect them to be drafted. If anything, it is completely counter to the argument that his drop is a result of his announcement.

[JWags85]

BTW, let's not let facts get in the way of a juicy narrative. Were he the only player to move in those rankings, there might be something to it. This from CBS...

NFLDraftScout.com has Sam ranked as the No. 110 overall prospect. An initial drop to 160 from 90 on Monday morning was part of a comprehensive adjustment in the rankings leading up to next week's scouting combine that generated movement among hundreds of prospects. In all, 65 of the top 350 prospects were affected by the rankings update...

To suggest that this drop occurred overnight because of his announcement is ludicrous. of course it would also require that NFL Draft Scout and CBS are part of the bigoted GM class.   BTW, they are prospect rankings, not a mock draft. They rate players as football players, not where they expect them to be drafted. If anything, it is completely counter to the argument that his drop is a result of his announcement.

I saw that this afternoon and thought less that those websites are in on some "conspiracy" and more that their rankings have some influence from scouts or front office staff. Moreso that they are rankings and not some mock draft from Bleacher Report.

[jesmu84]

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10429956

Good on Lombardi. Especially back then

[Spotcheck Billy]

is being gay a sport or a competition?

[MU B2002]

is being gay a sport or a competition?

There are no judges, and I am not sure if anyone plays defense. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

There are no judges, and I am not sure if anyone plays defense. 

it sounds like there are too many judges about Sam

[NavinRJohnson]

Dan Bernstein's distorted history...

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/02/11/bernstein-ten-months-have-mattered/

And it was why I was steeling myself yesterday, preparing for another trip in the sports-radio time machine, back to the 1950s again, where we could hear misguided tropes of manliness, masculinity and toughness spouted by the angry and unenlightened as they hid behind their bibles and fake names.

He even uses the word unenlightened. His behavior on that day was embarrassing. It's been discussed here before, and I know many agree. He was the one primarily stoking the flames. People didn't call to condemn Jason Collins, they called to defend themselves, against Bernstein acting like a jag wad - as I said earlier in the thread, the people making anything of this, or Collins are the ones who are doing so in order to feel better about themselves and show the world how enlightened they are. The "only" condemning going on is by those simply anticipating or expecting wholesale bigotry - creating it, so they can condemn it. Of course there are exceptions, but this whole thing is one big yawn to most, except to people like Bernstein who see it simply as an opportunity to pat themselves on the back.

[NavinRJohnson]

it sounds like there are too many judges about Sam

Funny, I've seen very few.

[Lennys Tap]

Dan Bernstein's distorted history...

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/02/11/bernstein-ten-months-have-mattered/

And it was why I was steeling myself yesterday, preparing for another trip in the sports-radio time machine, back to the 1950s again, where we could hear misguided tropes of manliness, masculinity and toughness spouted by the angry and unenlightened as they hid behind their bibles and fake names.

He even uses the word unenlightened. His behavior on that day was embarrassing. It's been discussed here before, and I know many agree. He was the one primarily stoking the flames. People didn't call to condemn Jason Collins, they called to defend themselves, against Bernstein acting like a jag wad - as I said earlier in the thread, the people making anything of this, or Collins are the ones who are doing so in order to feel better about themselves and show the world how enlightened they are. The "only" condemning going on is by those simply anticipating or expecting wholesale bigotry - creating it, so they can condemn it. Of course there are exceptions, but this whole thing is one big yawn to most, except to people like Bernstein who see it simply as an opportunity to pat themselves on the back.

Dan Berstein is a very smart man. A good wordsmith, someone who can analyze quickly and think well on his feet. He is also a mean spirited, self important bully whose own intolerance is as off the charts as any of the bozos he mocks on his show. He can be funny (clever) but even when I agree with him (which is much more often than not) I am put off by his lack of humanity. He hates people at an alarming rate, and for reasons that range from the understandable to the trivial. Just a bad guy.

[brandx]

Dan Berstein is a very smart man. A good wordsmith, someone who can analyze quickly and think well on his feet. He is also a mean spirited, self important bully whose own intolerance is as off the charts as any of the bozos he mocks on his show. He can be funny (clever) but even when I agree with him (which is much more often than not) I am put off by his lack of humanity. He hates people at an alarming rate, and for reasons that range from the understandable to the trivial. Just a bad guy.

Good analysis. I listen to the show a lot and I've always felt the same way. I would say more that he has an inflated opinion of himself and shows more disrespect toward people than hatred

[MerrittsMustache]

Dan Berstein is a very smart man. A good wordsmith, someone who can analyze quickly and think well on his feet. He is also a mean spirited, self important bully whose own intolerance is as off the charts as any of the bozos he mocks on his show. He can be funny (clever) but even when I agree with him (which is much more often than not) I am put off by his lack of humanity. He hates people at an alarming rate, and for reasons that range from the understandable to the trivial. Just a bad guy.

You had me until the last sentence. Bernstein can treat people poorly but I don't think he's necessarily "just a bad guy." He's a narcissist and, as you said, he's a very intelligent man, but I get the impression that he's insecure about it. He views those who disagree with him as people questioning his intelligence which leads him to speak louder and become more confrontational, often not even allowing others to respond. He can also be a kind and charitable man, but that is often overshadowed by his penchant for bullying callers.

[Lennys Tap]

You had me until the last sentence. Bernstein can treat people poorly but I don't think he's necessarily "just a bad guy." He's a narcissist and, as you said, he's a very intelligent man, but I get the impression that he's insecure about it. He views those who disagree with him as people questioning his intelligence which leads him to speak louder and become more confrontational, often not even allowing others to respond. He can also be a kind and charitable man, but that is often overshadowed by his penchant for bullying callers.

Yeah, Stache, probably should have omitted "just a bad guy" - that was me being as intolerant as he can be. But I really hate it when he (for sport) just eviscerates some guy who is not very bright. Not funny, not entertaining, borderline cruel. Character revealed.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Yeah, Stache, probably should have omitted "just a bad guy" - that was me being as intolerant as he can be. But I really hate it when he (for sport) just eviscerates some guy who is not very bright. Not funny, not entertaining, borderline cruel. Character revealed.

Lennys slightly modified description is spot on.

[jesmu84]

I like humor...