College Athlete Union?

[jesmu84]

Crazy talk here..

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10363430/outside-lines-northwestern-wildcats-football-players-trying-join-labor-union

[ChicosBailBonds]

It is not the first time in history...that article is wrong right out of the gate.  It has been tried several times before.

[Tugg Speedman]

From the story ... the big issue:

Athletes playing for university-based teams are not considered employees by any legal body. They haven't been since 1953, when the Colorado Supreme Court upheld a determination by the state Industrial Commission that a football player at the University of Denver was an "employee" within the context of the Colorado workers' compensation statute.

As a result, the university was responsible to provide workers' compensation for his football injuries. The NCAA responded by coining the term "student-athlete" and mandating its use by universities. Use of that term, and other efforts to enforce the idea that athletes cannot also be employees, ramped up as the NCAA a few years later introduced athletic scholarships, a form of compensation for services provided.

The distinction has held, though since then the courts have come to recognize other students who provide services to universities as employees. Graduate students who teach, for instance, are recognized as employees of universities under laws in many states. Academics such as Richard and Amy McCormick of Michigan State have argued that athletes are employees under the common law definition of the National Labor Relations Act.

The NLRA governs only private enterprises and does not apply to public universities. As a private university, Northwestern falls under its jurisdiction. Gerard said that based on labor law, any decision in favor of the players against Northwestern would apply to all private universities across the country in the FBS. It would not apply to public universities, which are governed by state laws.

[Tugg Speedman]

Based on the above, if Northwestern wins, and they get the players at other private universities to join their union (ND, Stanford, USC, Vandy, Duke, Baylor, Clemson etc.) and they start paying players, the public universities will be at a competitive disadvantage in recruiting and will cave and join them.

Remember, if Northwestern wins, it is not up to the university if they join the Union.  It is purely up to the players at the other schools alone.

[brandx]

From the story ... the big issue:

Athletes playing for university-based teams are not considered employees by any legal body.

Interesting take. When I helped my company make millions of $$$, I was an employee (and never needed knee surgery or had a concussion). When athletes help their company make million (billions) $$$, they are not employees. Good gig for the schools.

As I stated in another thread, it is interesting that the NCAA responded in a matter of just a couple hours as opposed to a couple years when a school doesn't require their athletes to be able to read. Especially as they stressed how these are academic institutions. Apparently they pull out the "academic Institution" card whenever their cash flow is threatened.

[warriorchick]

Based on the above, if Northwestern wins, and they get the players at other private universities to join their union (ND, Stanford, USC, Vandy, Duke, Baylor, Clemson etc.) and they start paying players, the public universities will be at a competitive disadvantage in recruiting and will cave and join them.

Remember, if Northwestern wins, it is not up to the university if they join the Union.  It is purely up to the players at the other schools alone.

With the exception of USC, all of the schools you mention above are in right-to-work states.  That should make things interesting:  Union thuggery on the gridiron trying to intimidate players that don't want to pay dues.

[brandx]

With the exception of USC, all of the schools you mention above are in right-to-work states.  That should make things interesting:  Union thuggery on the gridiron trying to intimidate players that don't want to pay dues.

Sorry, but in my book, anyone who throws out the phrase "union thuggery" is  simply a fool.

[jesmu84]

Sorry, but in my book, anyone who throws out the phrase "union thuggery" is  simply a fool.

+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.

[warriorchick]

+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.

You have to admit the unions brought that on themselves.

And I guess I should have used teal.

[Archies Bat]

And I guess I should have used teal.

Didn't need to with me, thug!

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.

 

Much of it brought on by themselves.  My wife is a member of a union (she no longer works) and she can tell some wonderful examples of it over her career.  The term "union thugs" didn't just come out of nowhere, there is a history behind it.  To deny this is absurd as much as Brandx wants to deny it.

For several years out of college I worked in the engine automotive testing industry with my clients at GM, Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc....it was more than a bit fun going to the test floor.

Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior.  The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built.  As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened.  On one of my shifts I heard a tremendous crash on the first floor like something collapsing in the area of the Warrior Shoppe (book store). Went down to investigate, called Public Safety.  Ultimately an entire section of the that area was destroyed.  It was determined by the investigation by police and public safety that the union guys up set that some non-union guys were doing work in the AMU, so they sabotaged the whole area.  Fortunately, it collapsed in the middle of the night and not while people were around.  It was an eye opening experience to say the least.

Unfortunate, because many unions have done good things for people, but they've also done some other things that have caused problems from their actions of their members that earned them the criticism they get.  Plenty of union thug beatings around on YouTube....that characterization didn't happen as an accident or a mistake.

[jesmu84]

 

Much of it brought on by themselves.  My wife is a member of a union (she no longer works) and she can tell some wonderful examples of it over her career.  The term "union thugs" didn't just come out of nowhere, there is a history behind it.  To deny this is absurd as much as Brandx wants to deny it.

For several years out of college I worked in the engine automotive testing industry with my clients at GM, Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc....it was more than a bit fun going to the test floor.

Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior.  The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built.  As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened.  On one of my shifts I heard a tremendous crash on the first floor like something collapsing in the area of the Warrior Shoppe (book store). Went down to investigate, called Public Safety.  Ultimately an entire section of the that area was destroyed.  It was determined by the investigation by police and public safety that the union guys up set that some non-union guys were doing work in the AMU, so they sabotaged the whole area.  Fortunately, it collapsed in the middle of the night and not while people were around.  It was an eye opening experience to say the least.

Unfortunate, because many unions have done good things for people, but they've also done some other things that have caused problems from their actions of their members that earned them the criticism they get.  Plenty of union thug beatings around on YouTube....that characterization didn't happen as an accident or a mistake.

I understand and completely agree. However, it's funny how bad it has become for the unions compared to their employers (who, throughout the same existence have committed just as evil acts). I guess that's what media manipulation will do.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I understand and completely agree. However, it's funny how bad it has become for the unions compared to their employers (who, throughout the same existence have committed just as evil acts). I guess that's what media manipulation will do.

We'll end our agreement there.  I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn.  Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.

[jesmu84]

We'll end our agreement there.  I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn.  Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.

It might surprise you to know that I agree with you about MSNBC. I can't say I like any of it.

[jsglow]

Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior.  The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built.  As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened.

Hadn't known that you had been a Super in the years after I graduated.  Many of the early 80s Brooks Union Supervisors will be gathering next week when Butler comes to town.  Of course in our day we were still manning Carpenter Hall and AMU didn't yet exist.  But I'll bet we both had Angelo's delivered to Toby's office late on a Saturday night.

[jfmu]

Who's going to pay the union dues?

[brandx]

We'll end our agreement there.  I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn.  Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.

Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are 

But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.

[jesmu84]

Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are 

But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.

You said it much better than I did.

[Jay Bee]

Unions are great for people who personally add little value.

[brandx]

You said it much better than I did.

Jesmu, when I was young I was on the executive board of a union. I quit when I was ordered to defend a guy caught with a joint in his hand. Nothing against smokin' a J, but don't do it on the job and expect me to bail you out.

But the critics of unions forget about weekends off, lunch breaks, paid vacations, Family & Medical Leave Act, sick leave, Social Security 8-hour work day, overtime pay, Child labor laws, OSHA, 40-hour work week, workers’ comp, pensions, Employer health care insurance, Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS), sexual harassment laws, Americans With Disabilities Act, holiday pay, dental, life, and vision insurance, Pregnancy and parental leave, and military leave.

All things we take for granted even in our non-union jobs.

[brandx]

Unions are great for people who personally add little value.

Are you in the Scoop union 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are 

But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.

Part of the problem is that unions end up devouring themselves.  Classic example in my youngest' school.  Bar none, best teacher in the school is one that has been around for 5 years.  With cuts, they had to eliminate teachers, but union seniority kicked in and some that don't give a damn, riding the gravy train to retirement, not engaged with the kids, etc, keep their job while this one lost hers.  People were beyond pissed.  Personally, I chuckled.  You get what you get and now the consequences start revealing themselves.   

Or when concessions are made, they are often to first to protect those at the top of the ranks, not those coming into the ranks.  One of the many reasons my wife despised her union so much.

For the record, I tend to watch many different media channels.  I don't like to get marching orders from anyone.  To each their own.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hadn't known that you had been a Super in the years after I graduated.  Many of the early 80s Brooks Union Supervisors will be gathering next week when Butler comes to town.  Of course in our day we were still manning Carpenter Hall and AMU didn't yet exist.  But I'll bet we both had Angelo's delivered to Toby's office late on a Saturday night.

Yup, I worked for Steve Hayes.  My sister married a former BMU manager as well.  Small world.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Jesmu, when I was young I was on the executive board of a union. I quit when I was ordered to defend a guy caught with a joint in his hand. Nothing against smokin' a J, but don't do it on the job and expect me to bail you out.

But the critics of unions forget about weekends off, lunch breaks, paid vacations, Family & Medical Leave Act, sick leave, Social Security 8-hour work day, overtime pay, Child labor laws, OSHA, 40-hour work week, workers’ comp, pensions, Employer health care insurance, Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS), sexual harassment laws, Americans With Disabilities Act, holiday pay, dental, life, and vision insurance, Pregnancy and parental leave, and military leave.

All things we take for granted even in our non-union jobs.

I don't think many people, at least educated people, forget about those things.  Part of the issue is that those things cost LOTS OF MONEY, and while you may believe they are great, there are consequences to having those things.  Trade-offs.  My uncle, was very high up in the railroad union back in Philadelphia a few decades ago and we would often talk (no animosity) about this. 

A right "earned" or bargained for comes at the expense of something else.  Where you lose people, in my opinion (and I told him this often) is the perception that you can get all the goodies and it has no impact.  That the goodies are free and come with no price.  That is unicorn time, but often when the jobs go, or wages suppressed, etc, it's because the pie is only so big but the position taken is that is has nothing to do with all those goodies, its always something else. 

Somewhere reality has to creep into the discussion....unfortunately it doesn't.  There's a world out there, competing often with different set of goodies and different costs....something has to give. 

[brandx]

I don't think many people, at least educated people, forget about those things.  Part of the issue is that those things cost LOTS OF MONEY, and while you may believe they are great, there are consequences to having those things.  Trade-offs.  My uncle, was very high up in the railroad union back in Philadelphia a few decades ago and we would often talk (no animosity) about this. 

A right "earned" or bargained for comes at the expense of something else.  Where you lose people, in my opinion (and I told him this often) is the perception that you can get all the goodies and it has no impact.  That the goodies are free and come with no price.  That is unicorn time, but often when the jobs go, or wages suppressed, etc, it's because the pie is only so big but the position taken is that is has nothing to do with all those goodies, its always something else. 

Somewhere reality has to creep into the discussion....unfortunately it doesn't.  There's a world out there, competing often with different set of goodies and different costs....something has to give. 

Not to perpetuate stereotypes, cuz I knew a lot of smart, artistic guys in the factory when I was young, but generally their world was a lot smaller - not a lot of concerns about the market forces out in the real world.