Derrick Wilson or John Dawson?

[Archies Bat]

Dawson has more votes, now what?

Have a vote on Jake vs. Todd vs. JJJ?  The Scoop server built into the Colorado mountain might explode.

[Eldon]

I dont know about the others in the pro-dawson camp, but Im not claiming dawson is the savior. All im saying is that he might be. He has shown some good potential. Lets see if its legit. If hes given, say, a couple games at the helm and we still only beat the likes of seton hall by one, ill admit that i was "wrong."

Notice that nobody is crying as loudly about jake vs jjj/burton/mayo.

Note that i am working under the assumption that the season is gone and our only hope is winning the BE tourney.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

I've seen one game out of 20 where, to my eyes, Dawson was the better choice for more minutes than Derrick.   JD had a really nice game against Georgetown.   I thought he was abysmal against Butler and Villanova and got exactly the minutes he deserved. 

That was probably the only chance Dawson has gotten all season to show he is better than Derrick, and he succeeded. At least give him a real chance rather than playing him for 2 minute spurts.

[GGGG]

We do not have good man-to-man defenders. Derrick is only a small part of the problem there. Davante is terrible and Jamil has been surprisingly bad, Mayo not much better. Jamil has played excellent team defense, but surprising - to me anyway - sorely lacking one-on-one this year.

That's kind of what my thoughts are all well.  We are missing Vander and Trent...and replaced them with Jake and Davante/Juan/STJ....eesh.

[madtownwarrior]

If it's in Buzz we trust, where is the Wilson that Buzz went on and on about here:

http://www.replaytheseries.com/10/14/13/Marquette-PG-Derrick-Wilson-working-on-e/landing.html?blockID=950743&feedID=8461

so now at 5 ppts per game, 3.8 assists per game, terrible shooting percentages from FT, 2p and 3pt - all leading to a 11 - 9 record and a possible CBI psot-season - maybe that is why some are questioning buzz's judgement of how good Wilson is good Dawson is...


"Junior Cadougan is not nearly the athlete that Derrick was the day he took his first team picture"

"I think because people only saw him in glimpses last year because of Junior, a lot of people don't know everything he's capable of."

"I would say Derrick is a phenomenal player. He's great at what he does on both sides of the floor."

"In some ways he's a lot better than Junior,"

"Williams told Wilson he had earned the right to start at point guard at a point during last season, but he then explained why he was sticking with Cadougan"

[Stretchdeltsig]

I like Dawson's game.  He shows stealth - the ability to steal and run with the ball; and, he has an outside shot; and seems to be a better passer than DW.  Bottom line is that he gives us a better chance to win.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

You are making apples to oranges comparisons - you are taking stats Dawson has accumulated for the year, when much of his playing time has been so limited/spotty and in 2 minute stints - it isn't even close to comparing to a guy who gets 30+ per game, every game and can run for 10 minutes straight of game action.  What do you think Derrick's numbers would look like this year if he was consistently getting 8 minutes a game, and it was broken up into 3 different stints of playing time??

What is our record when Dawson's gotten 25+ minutes of playing time?  1-0.  That's the argument...he's only been given 1 chance, and in that 1 chance...the team won the game.  Why not try it a few more times and see what happens - it's not like we are winning at a high level with the alternative..

+ 1000000000

[GGGG]

We have our best post player in 30 years, and seems we are going to waste his talent/senior season - because Buzz has just been too hesitant to play Dawson 30 minutes.  

WTF are you talking about?  How are Davante's talents being wasted?  He is scoring more (both overall and points per 40), rebounding more, assisting more and turning the ball over less.  He's also has a better 2FG% than he has at the end of any other year so far...over 70%.  The only thing that's dragging down his overall FG% and his OR is his three point shooting (2/13).  In fact, Davante is launching more shots per minute played *this* year (.36) than he did last year (.29).

So in the final analysis, you are blaming Derrick Wilson for wasting Gardner's talents even though Gardner is:

**Being used more
**Shooting more often
**Scoring more both overall and a per 40 basis
**Shooting better from the 2 point range.
**Assisting more
**Rebounding more
**Turning the ball over less

Yet.Another.Eye.Test.Fail.

[GGGG]

What is our record when Dawson's gotten 25+ minutes of playing time?  1-0.  That's the argument...he's only been given 1 chance, and in that 1 chance...the team won the game.  Why not try it a few more times and see what happens - it's not like we are winning at a high level with the alternative..

But that's just change for change sake.  And that might be OK, but there is no evidence to suggest that John Dawson is better right now than Derrick Wilson.  None.  You find a way to support the statistics you like...and discredit and ignore the ones you don't.

And as I have said, I would like to see Dawson play more.  But don't assert that it is a slam dunk case and that Buzz is "stupid" for not giving Dawson 30+ minutes.  It's simply not the case.

[NersEllenson]

WTF are you talking about?  How are Davante's talents being wasted?  He is scoring more (both overall and points per 40), rebounding more, assisting more and turning the ball over less.  He's also has a better 2FG% than he has at the end of any other year so far...over 70%.  The only thing that's dragging down his overall FG% and his OR is his three point shooting (2/13).  In fact, Davante is launching more shots per minute played *this* year (.36) than he did last year (.29).

So in the final analysis, you are blaming Derrick Wilson for wasting Gardner's talents even though Gardner is:

**Being used more
**Shooting more often
**Scoring more both overall and a per 40 basis
**Shooting better from the 2 point range.
**Assisting more
**Rebounding more
**Turning the ball over less

Eye.Test.Fail.

I"m talking about we have our best post player in 30 years, and a shooting guard in Mayo putting up the same per minute numbers as the amazing Vander Blue, and a talented 5th year senior in Jamil Wilson, sputtering to a 11-9 record and on course to miss the NCAA tourney...because our coach continues to roll out Derrick and Jake for 60+ minutes a game, while consistently getting outscored by a 35-10 margin....all the while you have a freshman PG who's shown some promise, and a junior shooting guard in Todd who does virtually everything better than Jake on a basketball court.

You may recall some previous arguments I've made?  Such in Gardner's first 10 games of his freshman year I said he'd be as good, if not better than Robert Jackson - for which I was ridiculed...how's that turned out - and Gardner doesn't even get to play with D-WAde and Travis Diener - but instead Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson!!

May recall I said DJ Newbill was going to be a very good player, for which you ridiculed..you said only because he was playing inferior competition at Southern Miss..when I said the kid had a lot of game.

I've been bullish on Todd Mayo since freshman year...he's hit some big time shots for the team, and is having a year comparable to your guy - the amazing Vander Blue last year.

I was bullish on Buzz in his first season at the helm - said he had "it."  You and others ridiculed and told me to take off the blue and gold colored glasses.

Now...I'm critical of Buzz, and you get your panties in a bunch.  You can love a coach, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with his every move.

Now, I know you've said you'd like to see Dawson get some more minutes, so at least you have conceded that point, which is respectable.

[harigtad]

here is a list of top 20 frosh
most are on better teams than MQ getting more minutes than any of our rookies
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1931782-college-basketball-freshman-power-rankings-week-12-edition/page/21

[GGGG]

You may recall some previous arguments I've made?  Such in Gardner's first 10 games of his freshman year I said he'd be as good, if not better than Robert Jackson

Which I agreed with you on.  It was a good call on your part.

May recall I said DJ Newbill was going to be a very good player, for which you ridiculed..you said only because he was playing inferior competition at Southern Miss..when I said the kid had a lot of game.

I did not ridicule you for that.  I ridiculed you for saying he was having a better career than Vander Blue.  Which is false.

I've been bullish on Todd Mayo since freshman year...he's hit some big time shots for the team, and is having a year comparable to your guy - the amazing Vander Blue last year.

He's not.  Continuing to say it doesn't make it so.

I was bullish on Buzz in his first season at the helm - said he had "it."  You and others ridiculed and told me to take off the blue and gold colored glasses.

Now...I'm critical of Buzz, and you get your panties in a bunch.  You can love a coach, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with his every move.

I never ridiculed you for liking Buzz.  I like Buzz.  I just thought your love for the guy was a little over the top.

And I don't have my panties in a bunch, I just don't like when you make assertions (like we are wasting Davante Gardner) when they simply aren't true.

[ATL MU Warrior]

here is a list of top 20 frosh
most are on better teams than MQ getting more minutes than any of our rookies
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1931782-college-basketball-freshman-power-rankings-week-12-edition/page/21

Compelling.

Is your contention that you would like to have these guys in an MQ uniform?

Or is your contention that any of our current freshman are nearly as good as any of these guys?

[NersEllenson]

But that's just change for change sake.  And that might be OK, but there is no evidence to suggest that John Dawson is better right now than Derrick Wilson.  None.  You find a way to support the statistics you like...and discredit and ignore the ones you don't.

And as I have said, I would like to see Dawson play more.  But don't assert that it is a slam dunk case and that Buzz is "stupid" for not giving Dawson 30+ minutes.  It's simply not the case.

It isn't just change for the sake of change.  It's change because they guy you've put all your eggs in basket - is failing.  5.1ppg, 3.8 apg, and 1.6 turnovers a game in 30 minutes of action on 8%, 35% and 48% shooting from 3, 2 and 1 isn't getting it done after 20 games.  A pre-season Top 20 team, favorite to win the league, is 11-9...and has handed Butler its only win in 8 games in conference play.

I know this is true:  Dawson shoots 75% from the FT line. 30% from 3 point line, and 32% from the field, largely in very fragmented segments of minutes.  I know Dawson's 6 3pt shots made this year, triple the total Derrick has made in almost 3 full years at Marquette.  And I know we won the 1 game this year Dawson played 30 minutes, and he far and away put up his best numbers in that game.  Think it was a total fluke that he put up better numbers THE ONE GAME he's been given extended run??

[NersEllenson]

I did not ridicule you for that.  I ridiculed you for saying he was having a better career than Vander Blue.  Which is false.


He's not.  Continuing to say it doesn't make it so.

Okay...since you are the king of loving statistics to base arguments off of...here's Mayo, VAnder and DJ Newbill in their Junior Years.  Pretty sure Vander doesn't compare all that favorable to either Newbill or Todd...but don't let the stats get in the way of your eye test on the matter...


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=todd-mayo&i=1&p1=vander-blue&p2=devonte-newbill

[ATL MU Warrior]

Ners,

Todd Mayo versus Vander Blue is the incorrect comparison.  I would think someone with your acumen would understand this.  

The correct comparison is Jake Thomas versus Vander Blue.  Who would you rather have on this team?  

Vander leaving is the absolute worst thing that happened to this team.  Not Derrick Wilson being given the keys to the PG position.

With Vander still on the team, you have two guys (VB an TM) on the team and likely on the floor together a lot, that cause all kinds of problems for defenses.  Even if Todd was purely Vander's backup, you have little to no drop-off in talent at the SG position for the entire 40 minutes per game.  

This team would be stacked if Vander had stayed.  He left, Buzz has deemed Jake his primary replacement, our guard core is depleted, and there you have it.  

I don't say this to rag on Jake.  He's doing the best he can and leaving it on the floor every night (just like Derrick), but the drop-off between Vander and Jake is a lot sharper than the dropoff between Junior and Derrick.

[NersEllenson]

Ners,

Todd Mayo versus Vander Blue is the incorrect comparison.  I would think someone with your acumen would understand this.  

The correct comparison is Jake Thomas versus Vander Blue.  Who would you rather have on this team?  

Vander leaving is the absolute worst thing that happened to this team.  Not Derrick Wilson being given the keys to the PG position.

With Vander still on the team, you have two guys (VB an TM) on the team and likely on the floor together a lot, that cause all kinds of problems for defenses.  Even if Todd was purely Vander's backup, you have little to no drop-off in talent at the SG position for the entire 40 minutes per game.  

This team would be stacked if Vander had stayed.  He left, Buzz has deemed Jake his primary replacement, our guard core is depleted, and there you have it.  

I don't say this to rag on Jake.  He's doing the best he can and leaving it on the floor every night (just like Derrick), but the drop-off between Vander and Jake is a lot sharper than the dropoff between Junior and Derrick.

I get your point in all the above and it's a reasonable one...and have no doubt the team would be a lot better off with Vander on it!!  My only contention is that Mayo's production, essentially has replaced Vander's from last year.  Todd hardly got any minutes last year, and had limited production - ultimately Jake probably could have contributed similar type of production this year in reduced minutes that Mayo did last year. 

So then you go to who else are we missing?  Lockett. I think Lockett was a decent player, but for the most part, he was just marginal through the month of February..really upticked in March. 

Having said all of this, in my view...the team doesn't look that* different talent-wise than what we had last year....other than at PG...yet our record is drastically different.  Gardner is now able to play 30+ minutes per game and his numbers have improved, albeit, its been challenging to get there when teams decide to not play Derrick honestly...which Nova did defend him honestly/like you would a normal player - they didn't sag off Derrick and collapse the paint...part of why DG went off big against Nova...

[avid1010]

I know that you have invested a lot of yourself in this argument.  But when you find yourself making statements like the one bolded above, it might be good for you to take a step back and take a couple of days off to put some things into perspective.

Because honestly this doesn't make you or your POV look good.

i can't believe you, of all people, posted this.  perfect!

[ATL MU Warrior]

I get your point in all the above and it's a reasonable one...and have no doubt the team would be a lot better off with Vander on it!!  My only contention is that Mayo's production, essentially has replaced Vander's from last year.  Todd hardly got any minutes last year, and had limited production - ultimately Jake probably could have contributed similar type of production this year in reduced minutes that Mayo did last year. 

So then you go to who else are we missing?  Lockett. I think Lockett was a decent player, but for the most part, he was just marginal through the month of February..really upticked in March. 

Having said all of this, in my view...the team doesn't look that* different talent-wise than what we had last year....other than at PG...yet our record is drastically different.  Gardner is now able to play 30+ minutes per game and his numbers have improved, albeit, its been challenging to get there when teams decide to not play Derrick honestly...which Nova did defend him honestly/like you would a normal player - they didn't sag off Derrick and collapse the paint...part of why DG went off big against Nova...

And I get that from a statistical POV Mayo this year looks a lot like Vander last year.

But, having this year's Mayo and last year's Vander TOGETHER is the key to the entire thing.  

Would you rather have lineup A or B this year?

A               B
Derrick       Derrick
Vander       Jake
Mayo          Juan
Jamil          Jamil
DG             DG

This is why I say PG isn't the worst problem on the team.  Lineup A would be far and away better than lineup B, and Derrick is the PG on both.  

In the end, it's all conjecture and we have the team we have.  And we all wish they were better.  So there's that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

+1 

But Ners does have a point - how can it get worse if Dawson and the other freshman play more minutes? We have already played ourselves out of the tournament.

Got two more losses before we have played out of the tournament.

Lose three and I will be on the play the freshman bus.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Could we get a show of hands as to the Derrick Wilson voters?  I thought there were only a handful of idiots on this topic.  But I guess we have 16 at present.

Personally, I kind of enjoyed winning at Georgetown...and looking decent against Xavier.

Put this thread off until today. Voted for DW "to start." All of a sudden I'm an idiot!?! The poll isn't about minute distribution or quality minutes, etc. It's about starting and I don't think JD has shown enough to take the starting spot from DW. Perhaps the poll selections should be:

DW (idiots)
JD (basketball savants)

And I would also vote to keep Otule starting.

[Nevada233]

This season.... Is NIT or Bust

[Class71]

Opinions are just that opinions. No one is an idiot for having an opinion. Those who make such statements might want to reflect a little and offer there opinion with evidence without demeaning those that disagree. Let's be respectful of one another since life is hard enough. I think folks from Marquette can do better than that and if we are not then we have lost much more than a basketball season.

[jesmu84]

It isn't just change for the sake of change.  It's change because they guy you've put all your eggs in basket - is failing.  5.1ppg, 3.8 apg, and 1.6 turnovers a game in 30 minutes of action on 8%, 35% and 48% shooting from 3, 2 and 1 isn't getting it done after 20 games.  A pre-season Top 20 team, favorite to win the league, is 11-9...and has handed Butler its only win in 8 games in conference play.

I know this is true:  Dawson shoots 75% from the FT line. 30% from 3 point line, and 32% from the field, largely in very fragmented segments of minutes.  I know Dawson's 6 3pt shots made this year, triple the total Derrick has made in almost 3 full years at Marquette.  And I know we won the 1 game this year Dawson played 30 minutes, and he far and away put up his best numbers in that game.  Think it was a total fluke that he put up better numbers THE ONE GAME he's been given extended run??

Is your main concern Derrick playing or Dawson not playing? What I mean, is, would you be ok if Buzz decided to start/play Mayo at the point and sit Derrick? If the argument is for outside shooting and putting pressure on the defense and better FT percentage, etc. wouldn't Mayo qualify? We'd get improved offense and Derrick would be relegated to backup PG minutes. Thoughts?

[Archies Bat]

Opinions are just that opinions. No one is an idiot for having an opinion. Those who make such statements might want to reflect a little and offer there opinion with evidence without demeaning those that disagree. Let's be respectful of one another since life is hard enough. I think folks from Marquette can do better than that and if we are not then we have lost much more than a basketball season.

Thank you.  I've seen the use of the terms idiot, moron, ignorant and the like more in the last two weeks than than in all my previous time as a registered scoop user.   One of the strengths of this board was the ability to debate differing opinions in an open, respectful manner.   We are not there yet, but we are beginning to resemble congress.