Derrick Wilson or John Dawson?

[GGGG]

Dawson has more votes, now what?

Clearly we must get this valuable information to Buzz somehow.

[GooooMarquette]

Clearly we must get this valuable information to Buzz somehow.

But how?  HOW?!?!!?!

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, I think a more apt comparison would be Derrick's stats last year versus John's stats this year since Derrick averaged about 13 minutes and usually it was only a couple minutes at a time.

The comparison doesn't play out quite so well for Derrick in this case even tho' he already had a year under his belt and John is a freshman.

I'm just surprised anyone thought Derrick would be OK starting. In 2 years he shot under 30% from the floor and under 50% from the line. Guys who shoot that poorly DO NOT become good shooters. Ever. And the coaches knew (or should have known that his one asset (defense) would be mitigated by the new rules. (I don't consider low turnovers an asset because he doesn't create offense.)

Derrick is nowhere near as talented a basketball player as John. That's not in question. The question is whether John as a freshman playing 30 minutes a game gives us a better chance to win games than Derrick as a junior does. I frankly don't know, but I do know the numbers don't say it.  What Buzz sees every day doesn't say it. Again, maybe it's true. But those who think it's a slam dunk for what ails us are basing it on hope, not facts. John Dawson had a wonderful 5 minute stretch against Georgetown. Scored 7 points and made a really good defensive play, but why those 5 minutes and not the other 200 he's played are who he is right now eludes me.

[GGGG]

But how?  HOW?!?!!?!

*Smoke signal
*Skywriting
*Telegram
*Strippergram
*Morse Code
*And this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy-g0j8mdEI

[Windyplayer]

I'm actually interested in this poll to see where fellow MUScoopers stand--and for nothing else. I want to know exactly how divisive of a topic it is or if it's just a few in either camp making a lot of noise.

[GGGG]

Derrick is nowhere near as talented a basketball player as John. That's not in question. The question is whether John as a freshman playing 30 minutes a game gives us a better chance to win games than Derrick as a junior does. I frankly don't know, but I do know the numbers don't say it.  What Buzz sees every day doesn't say it. Again, maybe it's true. But those who think it's a slam dunk for what ails us are basing it on hope, not facts. John Dawson had a wonderful 5 minute stretch against Georgetown. Scored 7 points and made a really good defensive play, but why those 5 minutes and not the other 200 he's played are who he is right now eludes me.

Exactly.  And I guess this is what get's people labelled "pro Derrick."

And this has a well worn history on Scoop.  People who think its obvious that the bench player is a better alternative than the guy Buzz plays.  

[brandx]

Derrick is nowhere near as talented a basketball player as John. That's not in question. The question is whether John as a freshman playing 30 minutes a game gives us a better chance to win games than Derrick as a junior does. I frankly don't know, but I do know the numbers don't say it.  What Buzz sees every day doesn't say it. Again, maybe it's true. But those who think it's a slam dunk for what ails us are basing it on hope, not facts. John Dawson had a wonderful 5 minute stretch against Georgetown. Scored 7 points and made a really good defensive play, but why those 5 minutes and not the other 200 he's played are who he is right now eludes me.

It's too bad this is all falling on Derrick. Jake, Jamil, Juan, Otule, and the freshmen have not been what most of us expected this year, but the PG will usually get the blame much as the QB does in football.

But a lot of people here see it isn't working this year and doubt it would be worse if the young guys were seeing more time. We are already at the point where it appears the only way in is to win the conference tournament.

Throughout Buzz' tenure, the improvement as the season wore on has been very clear. For whatever reason, it hasn't happened this year. I just don't see any way we win the tournament with the current lineup.That is about the best argument I can make to give the young guys more minutes.

[mu03eng]

Usually you make cogent posts..this one is a head scratcher.  Did you not think Dawson played his best game of the year in the game he got ample opportunity to run the point - Georgetown - 30 minutes?  To me that confirms that at least for the 1 game he's been given Derrick Wilson minutes - he performs pretty well.

The issue is we have a huge data set of what Derrick brings - neither he, nor the team have improved since November.  

The Juan/Jamil argument?  Come on man.  Jamil Wilson has shown to be a productive player - his player rating is nowhere near the clear cut last on the team, as is Derricks.

I want to see Dawson get 30 minutes the rest of the way.  Guarantee you his numbers would be much better than Derrick - I'd guess he'd put up 10ppg, 5 assists, 3 rebounds the rest of the way...and suspect the team would go 9-2.  As for confirming Dawson was the one making the impact - I'd say it was quite evident he made the impact in overtime, on the road, playing against the arguably the best backcourt in the Big East, at Georgetown.  Think his 7 in OT were pretty clutch and don't think that was a case of a teammate getting hot...  

What ranking are you using to determine that G'town's back court is the best in the Big East?  I would put Nova's, Xavier's and Providence's ahead of Georgetown.

You are the king of sample size, so one game means nothing right?  I stated it in a couple of other posts, Georgetown was playing zone and a weaker backcourt defensively, which plays to Dawson's strengths and to Wilson's weaknesses.  Nova is more athletic and plays to Dawson's weakensses, and I saw nothing in the minutes Dawson played to feel differently.

How many consecutive game minutes do we need to see Dawson to determine if he will be effective in the game or not in your mind?  The answer is not 30 minutes.

[GooooMarquette]

*Smoke signal
*Skywriting
*Telegram
*Strippergram
*Morse Code
*And this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy-g0j8mdEI

If someone can locate Willie Wampum, I'd go with the smoke signal....

[NersEllenson]

What ranking are you using to determine that G'town's back court is the best in the Big East?  I would put Nova's, Xavier's and Providence's ahead of Georgetown.

You are the king of sample size, so one game means nothing right?  I stated it in a couple of other posts, Georgetown was playing zone and a weaker backcourt defensively, which plays to Dawson's strengths and to Wilson's weaknesses.  Nova is more athletic and plays to Dawson's weakensses, and I saw nothing in the minutes Dawson played to feel differently.

How many consecutive game minutes do we need to see Dawson to determine if he will be effective in the game or not in your mind?  The answer is not 30 minutes.

This is draining.  How you and 30% of posters here can't see our PG play is far and away the biggest issue with the team stumbling to an 11-9 record with 1 win over a Top 50 team, is flat out baffling.

Question for you - can you elaborate for me, what exactly Derrick Wilson's strengths are offensively? And what do you see as being Dawson's weaknesses, and what do you base those assessments off of?

Has Derrick Wilson EVER took over a game and led us to the winner's circle in his entire MU career?  Is an 8% shooter from 3 point land, 35% from the field and 48% from the FT line, worthy or in Buzzspeak, worthy of earning the most minutes on the team??  We have a HUGE sample size of Derrick getting max minutes, and guess what - neither he, nor the team are showing any improvement.  We aren't any better now than we were in December.

Plain and simple, Buzz is being an absolute idiot continuing to think he's somehow going to coax victory out of a team being led by Derrick Wilson for 30+ minutes a game against Top 50 teams.  Certainly, the numbers don't lie.  Believe we are 1-9 against the Top 50.  But hey, things could get a lot worse at this point, so we better not dare take the risk of moving to Dawson and running the risk of him potentially playing awesome in overtime on the road and leading the team to a victory.

[tower912]

This is draining. 

Apparently, you are oblivious to irony. 

[NersEllenson]

Did you realize that we are scoring more a game (72 pts) than we did at the end of last year (68)?

That will likely decrease, but kind of takes away from the whole "team isn't better" concept.

So, since we are playing an all world defender at PG, yet scoring more points than last year, yet have a much worse record - how do you reconcile that?

Unfortunately, there is more to basketball than scoring points as you know Sultan - so our scoring 72 a game isn't enough, since we are 11-9.  It is odd to think that with a much better defensive PG in Derrick, that our scoring is up from last year, yet our record is so much worse...all while playing in a more watered down Big East. 

[NersEllenson]

Apparently, you are oblivious to irony. 

Touche.  Much like roughly 70% of the board feel you and the other Pro-Derrick guys are oblivious to reality.  

[Newsdreams]

Clearly we must get this valuable information to Buzz somehow.

That's easy, just copy paste here  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=41704.0  

[mr.MUskie]

Dawson has more votes, now what?

MUScoop has spoken.  It's why we get the big bucks.

[brandx]

Apparently, you are oblivious to irony. 

+1 

But Ners does have a point - how can it get worse if Dawson and the other freshman play more minutes? We have already played ourselves out of the tournament.

[GGGG]

So, since we are playing an all world defender at PG, yet scoring more points than last year, yet have a much worse record - how do you reconcile that?

Unfortunately, there is more to basketball than scoring points as you know Sultan - so our scoring 72 a game isn't enough, since we are 11-9.  It is odd to think that with a much better defensive PG in Derrick, that our scoring is up from last year, yet our record is so much worse...all while playing in a more watered down Big East.  

It's interesting, but if you look at certain offensive statistics...like eFG%, Efficiency, PPG, turnovers, etc.  We are pretty much the *exact* same team as last year.  

I personally think our problem is on the defensive end more than the offensive end.  But even then, teams are scoring at pretty much the same rate and with the same eFG% as last year.

So I think it's not a simple answer...at least not as simple as "IT'S THE PG!!!!" make it out to be.

[tower912]

     Nah, I'm not oblivious.   This is a frustrating team.   I just don't believe that the magic bean is to give Dawson 30 minutes a night.   IMO, PG is just one of several different areas where this team is struggled.      For example, Steve Taylor came back, was player of the game against Georgetown, but showed himself to still be defensively challenged guarding the pick and roll and more than able to miss an open layup.   For example, Jamil, after attacking effectively several times from the wing against Villanova, makes a post pass to Davante that was a mistake an 8th grader shouldn't make.   When the post has his man pinned, throw to the hand away from the defense.    For example, Buzz keeps insisting on starting Oxtule when it is more than obvious that neither can guard a stretch 4.
   I have advocated, at different times, starting Todd/ Deonte/JJJ..... starting someone who will give more offense at the beginning of the game.    Not starting Juan, or 1/2 of Oxtule.   I'm ok with starting Chris but still giving Gardner 30 a game.   More than that and his defense just gets horrible.  I've advocated playing more small ball, with Jamil as a stretch 4.   I haven't given Buzz a pass.    I just haven't seen Dawson as a gamechanger.  


Unlike you, I haven't called Buzz an idiot if he doesn't agree with my opinion.  


Taking your cue from a radio talk show host and vowing to not stop posting your opinion until everyone agrees with you isn't healthy.  

[GGGG]

Plain and simple, Buzz is being an absolute idiot continuing to think he's somehow going to coax victory out of a team being led by Derrick Wilson for 30+ minutes a game against Top 50 teams.  Certainly, the numbers don't lie.  Believe we are 1-9 against the Top 50.  But hey, things could get a lot worse at this point, so we better not dare take the risk of moving to Dawson and running the risk of him potentially playing awesome in overtime on the road and leading the team to a victory.

I know that you have invested a lot of yourself in this argument.  But when you find yourself making statements like the one bolded above, it might be good for you to take a step back and take a couple of days off to put some things into perspective.

Because honestly this doesn't make you or your POV look good.

[brandx]

It's interesting, but if you look at certain offensive statistics...like eFG%, Efficiency, PPG, turnovers, etc.  We are pretty much the *exact* same team as last year.  

I personally think our problem is on the defensive end more than the offensive end.  But even then, teams are scoring at pretty much the same rate and with the same eFG% as last year.

So I think it's not a simple answer...at least not as simple as "IT'S THE PG!!!!" make it out to be.

We do not have good man-to-man defenders. Derrick is only a small part of the problem there. Davante is terrible and Jamil has been surprisingly bad, Mayo not much better. Jamil has played excellent team defense, but surprising - to me anyway - sorely lacking one-on-one this year.

[leever]

Dawson has more votes, now what?

Check the first post.  Dreadman wanted to nip it in the bud.

[Sunbelt15]

What ranking are you using to determine that G'town's back court is the best in the Big East?  I would put Nova's, Xavier's and Providence's ahead of Georgetown.

You are the king of sample size, so one game means nothing right?  I stated it in a couple of other posts, Georgetown was playing zone and a weaker backcourt defensively, which plays to Dawson's strengths and to Wilson's weaknesses.  Nova is more athletic and plays to Dawson's weakensses, and I saw nothing in the minutes Dawson played to feel differently.

How many consecutive game minutes do we need to see Dawson to determine if he will be effective in the game or not in your mind?  The answer is not 30 minutes.

Give Dawson the whole first half. Sink or swim.

[NersEllenson]

I know that you have invested a lot of yourself in this argument.  But when you find yourself making statements like the one bolded above, it might be good for you to take a step back and take a couple of days off to put some things into perspective.

Because honestly this doesn't make you or your POV look good.

LOL - Think I need to step back from the ledge?!!  Obviously I have invested a lot into the whole argument, because I hate to just see the season thrown away...which it looks like it is headed that direction if we continue to make no change at PG.  Is it all PG?  Maybe not....but our backcourt is so entirely dominated each and every game statistically...it's hard to not put all the fault there.  We have our best post player in 30 years, and seems we are going to waste his talent/senior season - because Buzz has just been too hesitant to play Dawson 30 minutes.  Dawson will at least launch 3's, make some of them, shoot well if he gets to the FT line..and put pressure on the defense.  Derrick simply does not do that - it makes every guy's job that much more difficult to execute...

Just don't see why at this point being 1-9 against Top 50 teams, and there being little evidence of things getting better - you won't make a radical change - when the 1 game you did make a radical change, it was rewarded with a road win against a somewhat decent team..

[MUBBau]

Give Dawson the whole first half. Sink or swim.

This could work. But let's just say the results aren't what people are expecting. Do we then demand he play 3/4 of the game? The whole game? Every minute until things are proven right for the pro-Dawson crowd?

[ATL MU Warrior]

This could work. But let's just say the results aren't what people are expecting. Do we then demand he play 3/4 of the game? The whole game? Every minute until things are proven right for the pro-Dawson crowd?

I for one would love to see the excuses being made when we are down to somebody after an entire half of JD at the point. 

Then it will be because we can't shoot, can't play D, don't have consistent play from our most talented players.  In other words, all the reasons why this team is really struggling.