Marquette freshmen

[Lennys Tap]

Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.

Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU. But they were once. That's a fact, no matter how much you don't like it.  And when they got to Marquette they were still north of 1000-1 shots to make the NBA. Good for them. Good for Buzz.

[GGGG]

Continue to say that Buzz got them as high school kids? I've NEVER said Buzz got them as high school kids. EVER. But keep operating on the premise that if you repeat a big lie often and loud enough some will be foolish enough to fall for it. Some will even be foolish enough to call the lie eloquent.

Oooo....lord knows Equalizer is sitting in his cabin in Montana working up a 500 word response to this.

[Nevada233]

JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.

Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either

People always saying Earn this Earn that.

Blah blah blah.....

Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.

For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.

He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.

This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.

[GGGG]

Hey, when you are on the side of Jameel McKay, you must have a winning argument.

[The Equalizer]

Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU.

You most certainly did.

Once again, let me remind you what you actually said:

Yeah, the guy who turned two non top 500 high school guys into first round NBA draft picks doesn't know about "progressing young men".

That's pretty clear to me. You're saying they were still non-top-500 HS guys when Buzz started working with them. 

As I said, the accurate statement is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from non-top-500 HS kids into JUCO All Americans--the equivalent of top 100 HS players.  Buzz then turned two JUCO AAs (one equivalent to a 11-40 ranked HS player, the other equivalent to 41-70 rank) into NBA players.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU. But they were once. That's a fact, no matter how much you don't like it.  And when they got to Marquette they were still north of 1000-1 shots to make the NBA. Good for them. Good for Buzz.

I don't recall anyone denying that some rating service(s) said they are north of 500 as high school players.  You're missing the point.....they were damn good players as JUCOs and rated so accordingly, but you want to make it appear that they are tagged and envisioned as sub 500 players and completely skip their accomplishments and ratings prior to coming to MU.  It's like you've redacted their resume to make a silly point that isn't even a point to be made because the fact remains, these were very good players offered by high major programs.  As for the 1000-1 claim, pure conjecture on your part...you may be right, but that is a number totally pulled out of thin air.

84 made the case, he is right in this one and he eloquently stated it.  No lies like you claim.  Sometimes you are right, and you have no problem telling people (just as I don't).  So lick your wounds on this one, you can come back to battle later today.

[Lennys Tap]

 

I attrubted the phrase "talentless hack" to players rated that low.  Note that it wasn't a direct quote of yours.  Please forgive the literary license taken.  

Let the record show you didn't use the words "talentless hacks", but also show that the phrase is not inaccurate for players rated that low.



 

YOU are the one claiming guys ranked sub 500 out of high school (like Butler and Crowder) are accurately deemed "talentless hacks", not me. That's YOUR characterization, not mine.

I think they were loaded with undiscovered and undeveloped talent.

But keep accusing me of things I never said or even thought. And keep attributing your own inaccurate assessment of those guys' talent to me. At least one guy will find the lies eloquent.

[Zephyr820]

None of them are transferring.

Last year, over 1.5 transfers occurred per every single program in D1.  It is very, very likely that at least one will eventually depart.

[The Equalizer]

YOU are the one claiming guys ranked sub 500 out of high school (like Butler and Crowder) are accurately deemed "talentless hacks", not me. That's YOUR characterization, not mine.

Yeah.  So?  I already addreesd this.  Its funny--one post you're trying to say how bad they were (ranking worse than 500 which is well worse that Roseboro or Mbao). The next you're offended because I use different words that mean essentialy the same thing.

Nobody buying your feigned outrage here.  We all know you're trying to misdirect away from your own lies about them being HS players that Buzz developed.

I think they were loaded with undiscovered and undeveloped talent.

Really?  I seriously doubt it.

I don't think you had a clue who as to who these players were in HS or how much undiscovered and undeveloped talent they had.  You're just applying 20/20 hindsight. 

Anyone can pick the longshots if you place your bet after the races are run.

I think what happened is after Buzz signed them as JUCO AAs you did some ex-post-facto research, found they weren't very good in HS, and then started to misrepresent them as lowly ranked HS players instead of the JUCO AAs they were when Buzz signed them.

I think you did this becuase you wanted to artifically inflate Buzz's contribution to their development or sandbag Butlers or Crowder's baseline.

But keep accusing me of things I never said or even thought. And keep attributing your own inaccurate assessment of those guys' talent to me. At least one guy will find the lies eloquent.

Except you DID say that Buzz developd two sub 500 players into the NBA draft.

Thus, I'm accusing you of misrepresenting Crowder and Butler as being sub 500 high school students that Buzz developed, when we all know they were already JUCO AAs before they even stepped foot on campus. 

[Lennys Tap]

That's pretty clear to me. You're saying they were still non-top-500 HS guys when Buzz started working with them. 

"Still" non top 500 high school guys when Buzz started working with them? They are "still" non top 500 high school guys TODAY. And will "still" be non top 500 high school guys when someone writes their obituary. That's just a fact of their life and history that will ALWAYS be true. If you finished last in your high school graduating class and end up with a degree from Harvard it doesn't change the fact that you finished last in your high school graduating class. I know that Jimmy was one year removed and Jae two years removed from those ranking when they arrived at MU. Never, ever, not one time said they weren't. And they had improved a lot in those one or two years. And THEY deserve the lions share of the credit for making the association. But EVERYTHING I said is still true and factual. Your making up extra stuff I never said or altering what I said to fit what you want to infer from what I said can't and won't change that. You and Chicos want to keep flinging around the lies, go ahead. Fish gotta swim.

[Lennys Tap]

Except you DID say that Buzz developd two sub 500 players into the NBA draft.

Were they sub 500 players out of high school? Yes.

Did Buzz develop them into them into first round NBA draft picks? Yes.

So what I said was 100% true. End of story, except you want to write a doctoral dissertation on what you think I said based on your biased predispositions. You better hope that your mentor who grades it is your buddy. Otherwise it'll end up in the garbage where it belongs.

[Dreadman24]

JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.

Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either

People always saying Earn this Earn that.

Blah blah blah.....

Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.

For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.

He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.

This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.

+1 Million

[The Equalizer]

"Still" non top 500 high school guys when Buzz started working with them? They are "still" non top 500 high school guys TODAY. And will "still" be non top 500 high school guys when someone writes their obituary. That's just a fact of their life and history that will ALWAYS be true. If you finished last in your high school graduating class and end up with a degree from Harvard it doesn't change the fact that you finished last in your high school graduating class. I know that Jimmy was one year removed and Jae two years removed from those ranking when they arrived at MU. Never, ever, not one time said they weren't. And they had improved a lot in those one or two years. And THEY deserve the lions share of the credit for making the association. But EVERYTHING I said is still true and factual. Your making up extra stuff I never said or altering what I said to fit what you want to infer from what I said can't and won't change that. You and Chicos want to keep flinging around the lies, go ahead. Fish gotta swim.

Its a lie of omission to fail to include their JUCO achievements.

[GGGG]

Its a lie of omission to fail to include their JUCO achievements.

No it isn't a lie of omission.  It is simply an omission. 

[MerrittsMustache]

JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.

Marquette is 5-0 when Dylan Flood plays! Start him!

Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either

People always saying Earn this Earn that.

Blah blah blah.....

Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.

For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.

He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.

This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.

Hang on a second...You don't think that players should have to earn their minutes? And you think that Buzz should have played John Dawson simply because his family was in the stands? You realize that Marquette is a high-revenue, major college basketball program and not a middle school traveling team, right? Do you think Buzz should have two teams of 5 and rotate them into the game every 5 minutes? Should Jamie McNeilly be in charge of juice boxes and orange slices?

[GGGG]

You can make a case for JJJ or Mayo starting over Thomas.

But that's about it.  Unless you really want to mess up the line up by starting Jamil at PG, there really is no reason why anyone else should be starting.  Perhaps more minutes?  But starting?  No.

And I think people have to come to grips with the fact that we were simply overrated coming into the year.  Playing a bunch of freshmen isn't going to get this team winning more games.

[The Equalizer]

No it isn't a lie of omission.  It is simply an omission. 

It is when you try to turn around and credit Buzz for coaching them from that point to the NBA.

[MerrittsMustache]

You can make a case for JJJ or Mayo starting over Thomas.

But that's about it.  Unless you really want to mess up the line up by starting Jamil at PG, there really is no reason why anyone else should be starting.  Perhaps more minutes?  But starting?  No.

And I think people have to come to grips with the fact that we were simply overrated coming into the year.  Playing a bunch of freshmen isn't going to get this team winning more games.

Come on, Sultan! We all know that, much like redshirting, throwing freshmen into the mix before they're ready is a surefire way to guarantee that they improve exponentially.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No it isn't a lie of omission.  It is simply an omission. 

For which Mr. Lenny was often upset at other posters for omitting (with intent or without) in the past.   

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406650#msg406650

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12527.msg111756#msg111756

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20522.msg214545#msg214545


Maybe posters are having the same concerns Lenny did in the past on omissions. 

[NersEllenson]

Come on, Sultan! We all know that, much like redshirting, throwing freshmen into the mix before they're ready is a surefire way to guarantee that they improve exponentially.

Yeah - it sure didn't work well for Wes, Rel, and Dom or Key, Mac, or Logterman....

[MerrittsMustache]

Yeah - it sure didn't work well for Wes, Rel, and Dom or Key, Mac, or Logterman....

The key phrase being "before they're ready."

[Lennys Tap]

For which Mr. Lenny was often upset at other posters for omitting (with intent or without) in the past.   

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406650#msg406650

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12527.msg111756#msg111756

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20522.msg214545#msg214545


Maybe posters are having the same concerns Lenny did in the past on omissions. 

In Example #1 Pakuni quoted me as saying someone should be fired when my direct quote was "fired or suspended". So, a misquote that changes the meaning.

In example #2 84/Equalizer omits part of his own quote to alter its meaning.

I don't get any point on example #3.

I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me). And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.

[GGGG]

The key phrase being "before they're ready."

Exactly.  And as others have pointed out, because of the type of defense that Buzz prefers, it takes awhile for this guys to pick it up.  Crean had a simpler scheme.

[GGGG]

BTW, good post on IWB's board about the point guard play.  Pretty much saying that due to the nature of Buzz's motion offense, that even though Dawson has more natural ability, that the Wilsons have a much better grasp of what exactly needs to be done and when.  (This guy is a basketball coach BTW...not Murff.)

[brandx]

Marquette is 5-0 when Dylan Flood plays! Start him!

Hang on a second...You don't think that players should have to earn their minutes? And you think that Buzz should have played John Dawson simply because his family was in the stands? You realize that Marquette is a high-revenue, major college basketball program and not a middle school traveling team, right? Do you think Buzz should have two teams of 5 and rotate them into the game every 5 minutes? Should Jamie McNeilly be in charge of juice boxes and orange slices?

+1000!! Absolutely correct. The idea that a player should not have to earn his minutes is one of the sillier concepts I have seen. Maybe if I make a big contribution to the sports dept. at "X University", my son will become a starter.

And the poll with Dawson leading the list as a likely transfer is just as silly. Have we really gotten to the point where if a 2-star isn't starting as a freshman at one of the top 25 programs in the country, he should quit and try somewhere else. Do people really think he was expecting to get big minutes as a freshman?