Marquette freshmen

[The Equalizer]

Butler wasn't close to top-100. Neither were Crowder, DJO, or Buycks, all of whom have gone from MU to the NBA. Once you get here, you have to earn time. I have no problem with that. In addition, I have no problem with freshmen and sophomores having to prove themselves before they take time from juniors and seniors.

Butler, DJO and Buycks were all JUCO AAs, and Crowder was JUCO player of the year.

Hoopscoop is the only service that combines HS and JUCO into a single ranking, and all were equivalent to top 100 HS players: Buycks, Crowder and DJO in the 11-40 range, Butler in the top 70.

[Earl Tatum]

The season is lost----Play your futures and Jamil, Juan and Taylor. The vets are pouters

[brewcity77]

Again, what I said isn't about us having a problem with Buzz's system or not. Some hate what Buzz has done with the freshmen and some understand it. Not the point.

What is the point is that the freshmen themselves might not understand it or like it. They have "peeps" in their ears telling them, "Man, you are better than so-and-so; you should be playing 30 minutes a game like so-and-so is at Such-And-Such U." Plus, they have their own eyes and see players in front of them having horrible games but being left in for 20-minute stints. Meanwhile, they finally get into a game, they are yanked after one missed defensive assignment and that could be disheartening.

It's a perception thing -- not for us, because who really cares about what we think, but for the kids themselves.

And that all comes down to culture. I can't imagine they were promised anything coming in other than that they were going to have to work hard and earn their time. I'd rather see the guys that give us the best chance to win and put in effort on both ends of the court out there (for better or worse) than simply handing guys time because of what Evan Daniels or Clark Francis said about them while they were in high school. If they end up transferring, so be it.

I get that it's a possibility, but that's the case anywhere, and putting them in and losing games because of it isn't going to magically fix anything.

[MU82]

And that all comes down to culture. I can't imagine they were promised anything coming in other than that they were going to have to work hard and earn their time. I'd rather see the guys that give us the best chance to win and put in effort on both ends of the court out there (for better or worse) than simply handing guys time because of what Evan Daniels or Clark Francis said about them while they were in high school. If they end up transferring, so be it.

I get that it's a possibility, but that's the case anywhere, and putting them in and losing games because of it isn't going to magically fix anything.

We basically are in agreement. I'm not saying Buzz should change a thing (although making at least a few slight changes for the sake of change probably wouldn't hurt, IMHO). All I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the situation.

[brewcity77]

We basically are in agreement. I'm not saying Buzz should change a thing (although making at least a few slight changes for the sake of change probably wouldn't hurt, IMHO). All I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the situation.

Yup. I get that. But if guys transfer, they do. Just like Blue, one of those things that is beyond our control, and the culture Buzz has developed is one that has won regardless. I can live with a few guys going elsewhere if that's the price of having a winning culture.

[Lennys Tap]

Hoopscoop is the only service that combines HS and JUCO into a single ranking, and all were equivalent to top 100 HS players: Buycks, Crowder and DJO in the 11-40 range, Butler in the top 70.

This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.

[Eldon]

Yup. I get that. But if guys transfer, they do. Just like Blue, one of those things that is beyond our control, and the culture Buzz has developed is one that has won regardless. I can live with a few guys going elsewhere if that's the price of having a winning culture.

Plus, I'm sure that the expectations were already set when during the recruiting process.  I mean maybe they're questioning their decision to come here, but at the very least, they must have been aware that this was a real possibility, especially when an opposing team's coach is in the recruit's ear telling him that he won't see PT at MU as a freshmen.

Hopefully all of the freshmen have the foresight to realize that discipline and effort is better preparation for the NBA than playing glorified pick-up games at some low-major school.

But, as great as practice is, nothing perfectly simulates game-time situations and I wish the leash on the freshmen was a tad bit longer.  But but, I also hate when people outside my field tell me how to do my job, so there's that...

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.

I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings.  Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth.  I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination.  At least that I can recall.

Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.

[Marquette84]

This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.

"On our rating 1-10 rating scale a top five player nationally is worth 10 points, a top 10 player nationally is worth nine points, a player in the 11-40 range nationally is worth eight points, a player in the 41-70 range nationally is worth six points"

2010

http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-2010-top339recruitingclasses.asp
11.    MARQUETTE (26 Points)..........5 Recruits..........5.2 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Jae Crowder, 6'6, PF, Howard, (JC) TX; (8) Vander Blue, 6'3, 2G, Madison (Memorial) WI; (4) Jamail Jones, 6'6, PF, Montverde (Academy) FL; (3) Reggie Smith, 6'1, PG, Harvey (Thornton) IL; (3) Davante Gardner, 6'9, C, Suffolk (King's Fork) VA. 

2009

http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclasses-classof2009.asp
1.    MARQUETTE (46 Points)..........7 Recruits..........6.6 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Erik Williams, 6'7, WF, Cypress (Cypress Springs) TX; (8) Junior Cadugon, 6'0, PG, Humble (Christian Life) TX; (8) Jeronne Maymon, 6'6, PF, Madison (Memorial) WI; (8) Dwight Buycks, 6'3, 2G, Indian Hills (JC) IA; (8) Darius Johnson-Odom, 6'2, PG, Hutchinson (JC) KS; (3) Brett Roseboro, 6'10, PF, Quakertown (H.S.) PA; (3) Youssouphe Mbao, 7'2, C, Simi Valley (Stoneridge Prep) CA.

2008
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-toprecruitingclasses-classof2008.asp
82.    MARQUETTE (13 Points)..........3 Recruits..........4.3 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(6) Jimmy Butler, 6'6, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (4) Joseph Fulce, 6'7, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (3) Chris Otule, 6'10, C, Ft. end (Bush) TX.

[brewcity77]

I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings.  Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth.  I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination.  At least that I can recall.

Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.

Well...I'm pretty sure they are insane, but I'm not sure that's the reason why. I'd point to Junior being ranked #14 in his class or Erik Williams being #19 the same year as evidence of Clark Francis' insanity

[Lennys Tap]

I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings.  Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth.  I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination.  At least that I can recall.

Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.

Well, there are three (3) ten (10) member juco AA teams. Jimmy Butler didn't make the first, second or third team. He made honorable mention, making him somewhere between the 31st and 50th rated juco. No freakin' way that equates to a top 70 guy out of high school. Same goes with his "translation" or conversion of the other guys rankings. It's nonsense.

Hoopscoop? Really? I rest my case.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Looks like they did a pretty nice job on projecting how good our JUCOs were....that and the fact that those guys were getting a lot of high major offers while JUCOs also says a lot.


I see they nailed Rosboro, Mbao, Jones and Smith...they missed on DG, but so did everyone.

"On our rating 1-10 rating scale a top five player nationally is worth 10 points, a top 10 player nationally is worth nine points, a player in the 11-40 range nationally is worth eight points, a player in the 41-70 range nationally is worth six points"

2010

http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-2010-top339recruitingclasses.asp
11.    MARQUETTE (26 Points)..........5 Recruits..........5.2 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Jae Crowder, 6'6, PF, Howard, (JC) TX; (8) Vander Blue, 6'3, 2G, Madison (Memorial) WI; (4) Jamail Jones, 6'6, PF, Montverde (Academy) FL; (3) Reggie Smith, 6'1, PG, Harvey (Thornton) IL; (3) Davante Gardner, 6'9, C, Suffolk (King's Fork) VA.  

2009

http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclasses-classof2009.asp
1.    MARQUETTE (46 Points)..........7 Recruits..........6.6 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Erik Williams, 6'7, WF, Cypress (Cypress Springs) TX; (8) Junior Cadugon, 6'0, PG, Humble (Christian Life) TX; (8) Jeronne Maymon, 6'6, PF, Madison (Memorial) WI; (8) Dwight Buycks, 6'3, 2G, Indian Hills (JC) IA; (8) Darius Johnson-Odom, 6'2, PG, Hutchinson (JC) KS; (3) Brett Roseboro, 6'10, PF, Quakertown (H.S.) PA; (3) Youssouphe Mbao, 7'2, C, Simi Valley (Stoneridge Prep) CA.

2008
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-toprecruitingclasses-classof2008.asp
82.    MARQUETTE (13 Points)..........3 Recruits..........4.3 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(6) Jimmy Butler, 6'6, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (4) Joseph Fulce, 6'7, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (3) Chris Otule, 6'10, C, Ft. end (Bush) TX.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well...I'm pretty sure they are insane, but I'm not sure that's the reason why. I'd point to Junior being ranked #14 in his class or Erik Williams being #19 the same year as evidence of Clark Francis' insanity

They all miss on some guys....remember Erik Williams was a top 100 by a number of services.  I hate these ratings, but I think 84 has a point that Butler, Crowder, DJO, Buycks didn't just show up on campus as not very good players.  They were quite good, got very good offers while JUCOs and at least some services thought they were very highly regarded players. 

[brewcity77]

They all miss on some guys....remember Erik Williams was a top 100 by a number of services.  I hate these ratings, but I think 84 has a point that Butler, Crowder, DJO, Buycks didn't just show up on campus as not very good players.  They were quite good, got very good offers while JUCOs and at least some services thought they were very highly regarded players. 

They do, but that one more than most seems to have some radically different opinions on some guys. Just arguing that the initial post that started this talked about high school rankings and taking a chance to take a shot at the Hoopscoop rankings

[ChicosBailBonds]

They do, but that one more than most seems to have some radically different opinions on some guys. Just arguing that the initial post that started this talked about high school rankings and taking a chance to take a shot at the Hoopscoop rankings

They got Mbao and Roseboro right.   

[The Equalizer]

Well, there are three (3) ten (10) member juco AA teams. Jimmy Butler didn't make the first, second or third team. He made honorable mention, making him somewhere between the 31st and 50th rated juco. No freakin' way that equates to a top 70 guy out of high school. Same goes with his "translation" or conversion of the other guys rankings. It's nonsense.

Hoopscoop? Really? I rest my case.

So let me get this straight.  He rated Butler, DJO, Buycks, and Crowder all very highly.  They all performed to that expectation.

And becuase YOU at one point thought they wouldn't amount to much, HE'S the one who's insane?
 
Based on what?  Because the guy went four-for-four on correctly predicting the success of MU's JCUOs and proved you wrong on each and every one of them?  

Based on what actual evidence are you saying he's wrong?  Based on the facts, I'd say that it was the JUCO AA voters who were insane for not voting Butler higher--not vice versa.

Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).  

And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there.  But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.

[Lennys Tap]

Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).  

And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there.  But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.

What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder: they were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class. What I said about Dwight Buycks and DJO: nothing

What equalizer/84 says I said about all of them: they are talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit, not as good as the high school top 500.

What is true: JFB and Jae Crowder were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class.

What is a lie: what e/84 says I said about Jimmy, Jae, Dwight and DJO.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).  

And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there.  But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.

http://www.youtube.com/v/sVSfcWUxu_Q

[Lennys Tap]

http://www.youtube.com/v/sVSfcWUxu_Q

I love it when your "objective" little buddy makes up a bunch of lies and you get all woody over it. LOL. Makes you almost as giddy as IU beating Nichols State or Marquette losing to anybody.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder: they were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class. What I said about Dwight Buycks and DJO: nothing

What equalizer/84 says I said about all of them: they are talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit, not as good as the high school top 500.

What is true: JFB and Jae Crowder were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class.

What is a lie: what e/84 says I said about Jimmy, Jae, Dwight and DJO.

Your posts the other day implied...CLEARLY...that these guys were not even top 500 high school players and look what Buzz and MU did to make them into the NBA players they became.  Please.  You know, everyone knows it.  They were damn good players prior to them stepping one foot on MU's campus and the top 500 stuff was merely one part of the story to make your point, but the lack of the reality of how good they really were was totally left out.  You made that comment and ignored the fact that they were offered by Kentucky, Georgia, Baylor, etc, etc, or the fact they were very highly regarded JUCO players.  Maybe it slipped your mind, age can do that.

Buzz and MU did a very nice job with those guys, just as those guys did a very nice job with themselves and worked their butts off.  Let's not make it out to be these guys weren't even top 500 high school players and became NBA players and skipping everything in between...which is what you did and that's why 84 was calling you out on it.  And, looks like Francis got it right, those guys were regarded highly and he rated them accordingly.   

[Lennys Tap]

Your posts the other day implied...CLEARLY...that these guys were not even top 500 high school players and look what Buzz and MU did to make them into the NBA players they became. 

I didn't IMPLY that Jimmy and Jae weren't ranked as top 500 high school players. I stated the FACT that they weren't. And they weren't on your alleged buddy's (or anyone else's) NBA draft board entering their senior year. So hats off to them and hats off to Buzz for getting it done against long odds. CLEARLY they all deserve kudos.

Buycks and DJO, too, whom the dishonest one claims I ripped when I never even mentioned them.

[The Equalizer]

What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder:

Yous Mbao and Brett Roseboro were in the top 350.  So you're said a couple of our JUCOS had less talent than they did by a fair margin--over 150 places lower.  

I attrubted the phrase "talentless hack" to players rated that low.  Note that it wasn't a direct quote of yours.  Please forgive the literary license taken.  

Let the record show you didn't use the words "talentless hacks", but also show that the phrase is not inaccurate for players rated that low.

The TRUTH that you have for YEARS been trying to pretend that the JUCOs that Buzz recruited weren't very good.  You tried again just last week, by citing their HS rank rather than their JUCO rank.

The FACT is that you were well aware that Butler and Crowder were highly ranked JUCOs when Buzz recruited them.

It is a FACT that the one person who bothers to compare JUCO and HS recruits on the same scale says that Butler was eqivalent to a top 70 player HS player and Crowder was equivalent to a top 40 HS player.  

NOTHING in the body of work of either Butler or Crowder suggests his judgement was off the mark--and EVERYTING in their body of work suggests that that evaluation was 100% on the money.

Its a LIE every time you continue to say that Buzz got them as HS kids that weren't in the top 500.  

[The Equalizer]

I didn't IMPLY that Jimmy and Jae weren't ranked as top 500 high school players. I stated the FACT that they weren't.

Perhaps you've forgotten what you actually said the other day.  Referring to Buzz you said:

Yeah, the guy who turned two non top 500 high school guys into first round NBA draft picks doesn't know about "progressing young men".

Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.

And then saying that Buzz coached them from that point is just a flatout falsehood.  Complete and utter lie.

The accurate representation here is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from two non-top 500 HS guys into legit high-major D1 talent--equivlent to top 70 (Butler) or top 40 (Crowder) HS players. 

Buzz's role was to continue that development to get them to the NBA.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Perhaps you've forgotten what you actually said the other day.  Referring to Buzz you said:

Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.

And then saying that Buzz coached them from that point is just a flatout falsehood.  Complete and utter lie.

The accurate representation here is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from two non-top 500 HS guys into legit high-major D1 talent--equivlent to top 70 (Butler) or top 40 (Crowder) HS players. 

Buzz's role was to continue that development to get them to the NBA.

Eloquent

[Lennys Tap]

Its a LIE every time you continue to say that Buzz got them as HS kids that weren't in the top 500.  

Continue to say that Buzz got them as high school kids? I've NEVER said Buzz got them as high school kids. EVER. But keep operating on the premise that if you repeat a big lie often and loud enough some will be foolish enough to fall for it. Some will even be foolish enough to call the lie eloquent.