The Gold?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Redskins was a slur even in the dark ages when I was growing up - an intentional one used in movies and TV back in the "good old days" to connote Native Americans as savages. I know you long for those days. I don't. The fact that "some people" are okay with it is meaningless. Some people are okay with virtually anything.

Not some...91%....but hey   http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/downloads/political_communication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf


You might want to read how the Redskins got their name....you know, named after their coach who was Native American and he had a number of Native Americans on his team in Boston (they were the Boston Braves)...they went so far as to paint their faces with war paint.  Look, I get that some people are offended, you can find people offended by anything.  Some people are offended because it is the PC thing to do...get offended, without even understanding what they are offended about or the origins.   What if we have a rugby team here in the States called the All Blacks, like New Zealand does.  Would it be an outrage?  Does it have anything to do with ethnicity?  Would there still be people PCing to death the need for a change because they have no idea what it is and it just sounds bad?  Of course.  

Another poll, this time not exclusive to Native Americans....so I guess it doesn't matter, but I'll share it anyway since it is only three months old. http://ap-gfkpoll.com/featured/our-latest-story-2


Do I think it will be changed...yes, I agree with Pakuni that it will eventually be changed.  Do I think other names in this culture will also be changed?  I see no reason why not based on what I have seen over the decades....eventually it will be the Gold vs the Turquoise until someone complains about the additional importance we put on precious metals. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Reilly's schtick has gotten old, but this is an interesting take.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9689220/redskins-name-change-not-easy-sounds

My assumption is that the backlash on this article will be that a HS consisting primarily of Native American students has the right to use the name.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Reilly's schtick has gotten old, but this is an interesting take.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9689220/redskins-name-change-not-easy-sounds

My assumption is that the backlash on this article will be that a HS consisting primarily of Native American students has the right to use the name.

This is the money line:  "Too late. White America has spoken. You aren't offended, so we'll be offended for you."

That sums it up.   Never underestimate the power of white guilt in this country and the sanctimonious nonsense that comes with it.  If you aren't offended, by golly there are a bunch of peeps here that will tell you just how offensive it is and how you should be reacting.  And how dare you if you aren't acting that way.  They might even call you a name if you don't react, like Uncle Tom. Is there a "Native American" equivalent?  Good for Reilly to not be in the herd mentality and call out what the vast majority of folks actually are saying, rather than the one-offs that the press and the PC crowd puts up as THE POSITION. 

I'm sure Reilly is getting drilled today for using some of the same stats and references I did the other day, so I expect he is getting drilled hard.   

[WarriorInNYC]

This is the money line:  "Too late. White America has spoken. You aren't offended, so we'll be offended for you."

That sums it up.   Never underestimate the power of white guilt in this country and the sanctimonious nonsense that comes with it.  If you aren't offended, by golly there are a bunch of peeps here that will tell you just how offensive it is and how you should be reacting.  And how dare you if you aren't acting that way.  They might even call you a name if you don't react, like Uncle Tom. Is there a "Native American" equivalent?  Good for Reilly to not be in the herd mentality and call out what the vast majority of folks actually are saying, rather than the one-offs that the press and the PC crowd puts up as THE POSITION. 

I'm sure Reilly is getting drilled today for using some of the same stats and references I did the other day, so I expect he is getting drilled hard.   

This actually reminds me of the whole North Dakota Fighting Sioux debacle.  NCAA says the name is offensive, the tribe itself says it isnt and wants the school to keep the logo and nickname.  School drops the logo and nickname...

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/10298/

[BrewCity83]

From Reilly's article:

"It's a name that honors the people," says Kingston English teacher Brett Hayes, who is Choctaw. "The word 'Oklahoma' itself is Choctaw for 'red people.' The students here don't want it changed. To them, it seems like it's just people who have no connection with the Native American culture, people out there trying to draw attention to themselves.

How long before the state of Oklahoma is pressured to change it's name?

Enough, already.

[ChicosBailBonds]

From Reilly's article:

"It's a name that honors the people," says Kingston English teacher Brett Hayes, who is Choctaw. "The word 'Oklahoma' itself is Choctaw for 'red people.' The students here don't want it changed. To them, it seems like it's just people who have no connection with the Native American culture, people out there trying to draw attention to themselves.

How long before the state of Oklahoma is pressured to change it's name?

Enough, already.

Los Angeles...."City of Angels"....I'm sure there are people wildly offended  by the religious overtones.  Need to change the name (the county already changed the logo to remove one religious symbol because 3 people were offended).  But hey, we all need to be outraged, even if those that are supposed to be outraged (those people identified by other people...by the way), are not outraged.  Its such a colossal joke sometimes, but a cottage industry for an entire ideology and a good portion of the press in this country.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I don't see how anybody can think it'll be a good thing when homages (Warriors, Fighting Sioux, Braves, Chiefs, etc) to Native Americans disaapear. What image are we then left with?

With Redskins, I agree with Reilly but can see how some would object. The thing is, who are the people objecting?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't see how anybody can think it'll be a good thing when homages (Warriors, Fighting Sioux, Braves, Chiefs, etc) to Native Americans disaapear. What image are we then left with?

With Redskins, I agree with Reilly but can see how some would object. The thing is, who are the people objecting?

BINGO

Been arguing that for years.   Take enough of this stuff away from the vocabulary and inconography, you will have generations that have no idea some of these people even existed.  Some of the very people that are supposed to be so outraged by this stuff (you know, Native Americans) have said essentially that.  It's an honor and helps to keep their nation not only visible, but with an added relevancy.  It's marketing, whether people want to admit it or not.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't see how anybody can think it'll be a good thing when homages (Warriors, Fighting Sioux, Braves, Chiefs, etc) to Native Americans disaapear. What image are we then left with?

With Redskins, I agree with Reilly but can see how some would object. The thing is, who are the people objecting?

Agree with paragraph #1 completely.

Regarding paragraph #2, I grew up watching movies and TV shows where the guys in the  white hats would use the term "redskin" regularly - never as an homage, often as an overtly racial slur.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Agree with paragraph #1 completely.

Regarding paragraph #2, I grew up watching movies and TV shows where the guys in the  white hats would use the term "redskin" regularly - never as an homage, often as an overtly racial slur.

I don't even know if I agree it's a slur. Redskin? I think it's the equivalent of calling somebody "black" or "white." Again, not sure i think it's appropriate for a team name, but I also don't think it's necessarily a slur. The word "slur" is thrown around way too much.

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't even know if I agree it's a slur. Redskin? I think it's the equivalent of calling somebody "black" or "white." Again, not sure i think it's appropriate for a team name, but I also don't think it's necessarily a slur. The word "slur" is thrown around way too much.

Change the name to the Washington Whiteguys.

[muwarrior69]

Change the name to the Washington Whiteguys.

The Washington Crackers brought to you by Nabisco Saltines.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't even know if I agree it's a slur. Redskin? I think it's the equivalent of calling somebody "black" or "white." Again, not sure i think it's appropriate for a team name, but I also don't think it's necessarily a slur. The word "slur" is thrown around way too much.

More the equivalent non whites calling a Caucasian "whitey". Often used in the same context - kill whitey, round up those redskins, etc. Redskins meant brutal savage like whitey connotes evil.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't even know if I agree it's a slur. Redskin? I think it's the equivalent of calling somebody "black" or "white." Again, not sure i think it's appropriate for a team name, but I also don't think it's necessarily a slur. The word "slur" is thrown around way too much.

Actually having grown up around Native American culture redskin is closer to calling a black person n****r than it is to calling him black. It is 100% a slur

[MerrittsMustache]

Actually having grown up around Native American culture redskin is closer to calling a black person n****r than it is to calling him black. It is 100% a slur

According to the Wellpinit Schools superintendent (a school over 90% Native American): "'Redskins' is an honorable name we wear with pride."

I can't imagine that being said if a school's nickname was the n-word.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

According to the Wellpinit Schools superintendent (a school over 90% Native American): "'Redskins' is an honorable name we wear with pride."

I can't imagine that being said if a school's nickname was the n-word.

I said closer, not the same.

It is different when one native american calls another native american a redskin. If a white person calls a native american that...

[avid1010]

BINGO

Been arguing that for years.   Take enough of this stuff away from the vocabulary and inconography, you will have generations that have no idea some of these people even existed.  Some of the very people that are supposed to be so outraged by this stuff (you know, Native Americans) have said essentially that.  It's an honor and helps to keep their nation not only visible, but with an added relevancy.  It's marketing, whether people want to admit it or not.

seriously...you're going to act like you care about native americans...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agree with paragraph #1 completely.

Regarding paragraph #2, I grew up watching movies and TV shows where the guys in the  white hats would use the term "redskin" regularly - never as an homage, often as an overtly racial slur.

I'm alive today, and Native Americans often use Redskins as their own team name and overwhelmingly in polls show they have no issue with it.

But like Reilly said so well, they don't have to be outraged when others can be for them...by golly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually having grown up around Native American culture redskin is closer to calling a black person n****r than it is to calling him black. It is 100% a slur

And again, apparently the people you grew up with aren't answering these polls....91% said Redskins is acceptable.  Go figure. 

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/downloads/political_communication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf

[ChicosBailBonds]

seriously...you're going to act like you care about native americans...

My brother-in-law, his kids...all "Native American" to some degree.  My nephew and niece have used it to their advantage for college....good for them.   

I care more about the absurdity of people from one ideology, but yes I also care about what the majority of Native Americans feel.  They support it.  Watching the outrage by people who do nothing but get outraged for the sake of outrage, is comical and delightful to me.  Watching the press play outrage patsy and not call a team their name...boy, that will show them.   It's hysterical.

In the meantime, I'm glad we have people out there that can be outraged for others, even if those they are outraged for do not feel outraged.  It always works out so well.  Pretty soon the outraged will tell those that should be outraged how dumb they are for not feeling outraged, or call them cool names like Uncle Tom or whatever else to get them to come over to their enlightened position on the outrage meter. 

[swoopem]

BINGO

Been arguing that for years.   Take enough of this stuff away from the vocabulary and inconography, you will have generations that have no idea some of these people even existed.  Some of the very people that are supposed to be so outraged by this stuff (you know, Native Americans) have said essentially that.  It's an honor and helps to keep their nation not only visible, but with an added relevancy.  It's marketing, whether people want to admit it or not.

I agree with you that some of it is a bit ridiculous and an overreaction, but hopefully kids will still be taking history classes. I'm sure these generations will continue to learn about the trail of tears and the Pilgrims and Indians (Thanksgiving), etc. It's not like changing a sports team's name whips the history away.

[ATL MU Warrior]

My brother-in-law, his kids...all "Native American" to some degree.  My nephew and niece have used it to their advantage for college....good for them.   

I care more about the absurdity of people from one ideology, but yes I also care about what the majority of Native Americans feel.  They support it.  Watching the outrage by people who do nothing but get outraged for the sake of outrage, is comical and delightful to me.  Watching the press play outrage patsy and not call a team their name...boy, that will show them.   It's hysterical.

In the meantime, I'm glad we have people out there that can be outraged for others, even if those they are outraged for do not feel outraged.  It always works out so well.  Pretty soon the outraged will tell those that should be outraged how dumb they are for not feeling outraged, or call them cool names like Uncle Tom or whatever else to get them to come over to their enlightened position on the outrage meter. 

Go out to New Mexico/Arizona area, visit the Navajo reservation, and start calling people redskins.  see what happens. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with you that some of it is a bit ridiculous and an overreaction, but hopefully kids will still be taking history classes. I'm sure these generations will continue to learn about the trail of tears and the Pilgrims and Indians (Thanksgiving), etc. It's not like changing a sports team's name whips the history away.

Look at it this way, how many people in this country would truly know about the Seminoles without Florida State?  Sure, people in Florida, Oklahoma and a few other states where the Seminole nation is around in numbers would know, but how many others?  FSU using the Seminole name has helped the Seminole nation.

College or pro sports deliver name recognition.  My goodness, most of America is aware of a bird called a Jayhawk (which doesn't even exist...it is fictional) because of this.  Or a Tarheel.  Or a Hoya.  Or Fighting Sioux.  You start pulling this stuff out of the common culture, it is tough to get back.  With 43% of Americans unable to find New York on a map (the state, not the city) and 50% unable to locate Ohio, we have enough issues in the education system that doesn't give me a lot of hope that they will retain anything.  Not that college or pro nicknames are the end all be all on this, but it does reach a group of people that may have zero interest in Red Cloud, Cochise, Geronimo, Tecumseh, Chickamauga, etc, but they might actually pause for a moment and ask what a Seminole is, the Sioux, Aztecs, etc. 

I propose Marquette becomes the Mayans.  The Marquette Mayans....of course the Mayans weren't around in the States, let alone Wisconsin, but I like the alliteration and maybe a few people in this country will say, "what's a Mayan" and look it up.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Go out to New Mexico/Arizona area, visit the Navajo reservation, and start calling people redskins.  see what happens. 

How about I go to one of the highschools out there that uses the Redskins name and I wear a Redskins sweatshirt to cheer them on....wonder what would happen.  I would scream, GO REDSKINS.  Wonder what would happen.  Hmm, yes I wonder.

[Coleman]

Look at it this way, how many people in this country would truly know about the Seminoles without Florida State?  Sure, people in Florida, Oklahoma and a few other states where the Seminole nation is around in numbers would know, but how many others?  FSU using the Seminole name has helped the Seminole nation.

College or pro sports deliver name recognition.  My goodness, most of America is aware of a bird called a Jayhawk (which doesn't even exist...it is fictional) because of this.  Or a Tarheel.  Or a Hoya.  Or Fighting Sioux.  You start pulling this stuff out of the common culture, it is tough to get back.  With 43% of Americans unable to find New York on a map (the state, not the city) and 50% unable to locate Ohio, we have enough issues in the education system that doesn't give me a lot of hope that they will retain anything.  Not that college or pro nicknames are the end all be all on this, but it does reach a group of people that may have zero interest in Red Cloud, Cochise, Geronimo, Tecumseh, Chickamauga, etc, but they might actually pause for a moment and ask what a Seminole is, the Sioux, Aztecs, etc. 

I propose Marquette becomes the Mayans.  The Marquette Mayans....of course the Mayans weren't around in the States, let alone Wisconsin, but I like the alliteration and maybe a few people in this country will say, "what's a Mayan" and look it up.   

I actually agree with you Chicos, when its a case like the Seminoles or Fighting Sioux and the tribe is on board and its done respectfully.

Redskins though? I think that's a bit different.