The Gold?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I actually agree with you Chicos, when its a case like the Seminoles or Fighting Sioux and the tribe is on board and its done respectfully.

Redskins though? I think that's a bit different.

I get it, I get it.  I still go back to the three polls.  We're not talking 55% to 45%...we're talking 80%+, 90% plus acceptance.

How about Browns....how do you feel?  Hard to believe, but there is a group of people that are pissed off about that name and plenty of others willing to be outraged for those that aren't outraged.  Even though the team name comes from Paul Brown. 

Marquette Mayans.  Or Incas....I lived in Peru, so that one is special to me.  Bet you 90% of Americans have no idea who the Incas were. 

[Coleman]

I get it, I get it.  I still go back to the three polls.  We're not talking 55% to 45%...we're talking 80%+, 90% plus acceptance.

How about Browns....how do you feel?  Hard to believe, but there is a group of people that are pissed off about that name and plenty of others willing to be outraged for those that aren't outraged.  Even though the team name comes from Paul Brown. 

Marquette Mayans.  Or Incas....I lived in Peru, so that one is special to me.  Bet you 90% of Americans have no idea who the Incas were. 

I feel fine. I'm not outraged. Its not my ethnic group. For me it just comes down to this. There are literally an infitnite number of nicknames out there you could come up with. Why pick one that could be offensive? If its about pride and respecting heritage and its done with the OK of a tribe, again, I'm cool with that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I actually agree with you Chicos, when its a case like the Seminoles or Fighting Sioux and the tribe is on board and its done respectfully.

Redskins though? I think that's a bit different.

The Seminoles being on board is a misconception. Seminole nation of Florida has approved the use of the tribe name and Chief Osceola. But Seminole Nations stretches all the way from Florida to Oklahoma. All the other tribes voted unanimously against the Florida State's use of the name.

[Groin_pull]

Los Angeles...."City of Angels"....I'm sure there are people wildly offended  by the religious overtones.  Need to change the name (the county already changed the logo to remove one religious symbol because 3 people were offended).  But hey, we all need to be outraged, even if those that are supposed to be outraged (those people identified by other people...by the way), are not outraged.  Its such a colossal joke sometimes, but a cottage industry for an entire ideology and a good portion of the press in this country.

Personally, I'm exhausted from all this faux outrage. Sad thing is, when something comes along that truly deserves some outrage, I'll have nothing left.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I get it, I get it.  I still go back to the three polls.  We're not talking 55% to 45%...we're talking 80%+, 90% plus acceptance.

How about Browns....how do you feel?  Hard to believe, but there is a group of people that are pissed off about that name and plenty of others willing to be outraged for those that aren't outraged.  Even though the team name comes from Paul Brown. 

Marquette Mayans.  Or Incas....I lived in Peru, so that one is special to me.  Bet you 90% of Americans have no idea who the Incas were. 

I appreciate you attempting to back up your opinion with data. But those polls aren't worth much in my opinion. One, data can be skewed one way are the other. Two, and more importantly, even if it is true that 91% of Native Americans are ok with white people calling them redskins, I would still fight against it for the sake of the 9%. I know that you will disagree with this, which is a completely valid and logical opinion. But I find it morally wrong to to use the the name of a race of people as a mascot for a sporting team. I think it is dehumanizing and devalues the culture of a group of human beings. The example I always go back to is that it would be inappropriate to name a team the Africans and wear blackface to all of the games. So why is it not inappropriate to be called the Redskins and wear war paint to the games?

Obviously, you do not agree that it is morally wrong. And I can understand and accept that. It is logical, utilitarian, and completely valid. I do believe that it is wrong on principle. And I doubt either of us could convince the other of anything different.

And Browns, yes I would like them to change their name.

Incas, I don't have as much of an issue with because they are considered to be a dead culture, similar to the Trojans and Spartans. And as sad as it is, I think you may be right about the 90% of Americans not knowing what an Inca is

[avid1010]

My brother-in-law, his kids...all "Native American" to some degree.  My nephew and niece have used it to their advantage for college....good for them.   

I care more about the absurdity of people from one ideology, but yes I also care about what the majority of Native Americans feel.  They support it.  Watching the outrage by people who do nothing but get outraged for the sake of outrage, is comical and delightful to me.  Watching the press play outrage patsy and not call a team their name...boy, that will show them.   It's hysterical.

In the meantime, I'm glad we have people out there that can be outraged for others, even if those they are outraged for do not feel outraged.  It always works out so well.  Pretty soon the outraged will tell those that should be outraged how dumb they are for not feeling outraged, or call them cool names like Uncle Tom or whatever else to get them to come over to their enlightened position on the outrage meter. 

i'm glad you're outraged, as i was outraged at your hoodie joke and a few other comments as well.  that said, it's a message board, and things can easily be taken out of context.

[77ncaachamps]

As an American of Filipino descent, please feel free to name your sports teams after indigenous Filipino tribes.

That would be EPIC.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

As an American of Filipino descent, please feel free to name your sports teams after indigenous Filipino tribes.

That would be EPIC.

And jawbreaking   

[avid1010]

I get it, I get it.  I still go back to the three polls.  We're not talking 55% to 45%...we're talking 80%+, 90% plus acceptance.

How about Browns....how do you feel?  Hard to believe, but there is a group of people that are pissed off about that name and plenty of others willing to be outraged for those that aren't outraged.  Even though the team name comes from Paul Brown. 

Marquette Mayans.  Or Incas....I lived in Peru, so that one is special to me.  Bet you 90% of Americans have no idea who the Incas were. 

if we run a poll on mu and 90% of the readers vote that tc is a prick will you stop your love affair with him?

[Lennys Tap]

Here's the poll I want to see:

Referring to Native Americans as "redskins" is:


A) An homage
B) No big deal - it's what they are
C) I thought redskins were peanuts
D) Offensive, possibly racist

Think 90% pick A or B? No way.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Seminoles being on board is a misconception. Seminole nation of Florida has approved the use of the tribe name and Chief Osceola. But Seminole Nations stretches all the way from Florida to Oklahoma. All the other tribes voted unanimously against the Florida State's use of the name.

Not exactly...or even remotely close  

The Seminole Tribe of Florida officially sanctions the use of the Seminole as Florida State University's nickname and of Osceola as FSU's symbol. Max Osceola, the chief and general council president of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, has stated that he regards it as an "honor" to be associated with the university.[106]

However, the Seminole Tribe of Florida is only one of the tribal authorities representing Seminoles. Activists Michael Haney and David Narcomey, general council member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, objected to FSU's use of the Seminole symbol and name, and acting independently of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, filed a complaint with the NCAA.[107] David Narcomey, speaking on his own behalf, stated "I am deeply appalled, incredulously disappointed ... I am nauseated that the NCAA is allowing this 'minstrel show' to carry on this form of racism in the 21st century." The NCAA, in response, placed FSU on a list of colleges using imagery "hostile or abusive" towards Native Americans.[108]

In response, Jennifer McBee, the Oklahoma Seminole tribe's attorney general, stated that while David Narcomey was a member of the Oklahoma Seminoles' General Council, he did not speak for the 14,000-member Seminole Nation of Oklahoma when he protested to NCAA officials about FSU's use of the Seminole name and image. McBee added that the NCAA never even asked the General Council for its opinion.[109] Attorney General McBee stated that, as of June 2005, the council had taken no official position on the FSU issue.[106] Despite the opinions expressed by Haney and Narcomey, Ken Chambers, principal chief of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma told The Palm Beach (Florida) Post in August 2005 that he had no objection to Florida State University using the Seminoles as a nickname and symbol, reversing the earlier public position of the Oklahoma tribe's spokesperson.[110] In July 2005, the Seminole Nation General Council, the legislative body for the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, voted 18-2 not to oppose the use of Native American names and mascots by college sports teams.[109]  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's the poll I want to see:

Referring to Native Americans as "redskins" is:


A) An homage
B) No big deal - it's what they are
C) I thought redskins were peanuts
D) Offensive, possibly racist

Think 90% pick A or B? No way.

Why not just read the results of the polls.  Really not that hard.  Let me help you.

Sports Illustrated Poll

Asked if they were offended by the name Redskins, 75% of Native American respondents in SI's poll said they were not, and even on reservations, where Native American culture and influence are perhaps felt most intensely, 62% said they weren't offended. Overall, 69% of Native American respondents -- and 57% of those living on reservations -- feel it's O.K. for the Washington Redskins to continue using the name. "I like the name Redskins," says Mark Timentwa, 50, a member of the Colville Confederated Tribes in Washington State who lives on the tribes' reservation. "A few elders find it offensive, but my mother loves the Redskins."

University of Pennsylvania Annenburg Poll of Native Americans

"The professional football team in Washington calls itself the Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn't it bother you?"

90% percent of  took the position it was not offensive\didn't bother them, while 9 percent said they found the name "offensive" or bothersome.  1% did not answer"

No Way

[Lennys Tap]

So, Chicos, how do YOU answer my poll?

[Pakuni]

What Chico's conveniently fails to mention is that both polls he's citing are about a decade old.
Times change (as much as some would wish we were forever stuck in the 50s).

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Time for the lock.

Again.  Sigh.

[Jay Bee]

ZFB's motto, "more poles, less polls"

[EnderWiggen]

Not every Chicos post leads to a lock.

Yet, all locked posts come from a Chicos post.

[ChicosBailBonds]

if we run a poll on mu and 90% of the readers vote that tc is a prick will you stop your love affair with him?

I've already said he is a prick...I'd be one of the 90%.  Anything else?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What Chico's conveniently fails to mention is that both polls he's citing are about a decade old.
Times change (as much as some would wish we were forever stuck in the 50s).

This is true (one poll is 9 years old, the other a bit older), but actually I didn't fail to mention it.  I stated several times when the polls were done. http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=39760.msg515545#msg515545

Also, I believe Reilly referenced anecdotal evidence from this week, but you are right there have only been three polls that I can find on the subject that directly ask Native Americans.  All three overwhelmingly (not even close) were ok with it.  What's interesting, the newer polls (2004) were the highest in terms of being ok with the name...so at least trending at that point was that it wasn't offensive to the very people that are supposed to be offended (and if they aren't, there are folks that will be offended for them...by golly).

By the way, from 2013...NO WAY   ...from Native Americans.   http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/professional/football/redskins/article_26b0f8d8-eb22-52f0-87df-c05e24bbfc0e.html

"It doesn't bother me," said Robert Green, 66 and chief of the Patawomeck Tribe in Virginia. "About 98 percent of my tribe is Redskins fans, and it doesn't offend them, either."

Kevin Brown, 58 and chief of the Pamunkey Tribe of Virginia, said, "I'm a Redskins fan, and I don't think there's any intention for (the nickname) to be derogatory. The majority of the people in my tribe don't have a problem with it. There are a few who do, and we respect their feelings. "I like the uniforms. I like the symbol (logo)."

G. Anne Richardson, chief of Virginia's Rappahannock Tribe, had to stifle a laugh when asked her feelings on the Redskins' nickname.

"I don't have an issue with it," she said. "There are so many more issues that are important for the tribe than to waste time on what a team is called. We're worried about real things, and I don't consider that a real thing.

"We're more worried about our kids being educated, our people housed, elder care and the survival of our culture. We've been in that survival mode for 400 years. We're not worried about how some ball team is named."

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, Chicos, how do YOU answer my poll?

I think your choices are lame....sort of like an election with a douche and a turd...I wouldn't vote for any of them.

It's a false choice you have presented, but good try.  Besides, I'm just a white, male, my opinions don't matter any more....I'd prefer to hear from the folks that are supposed to be outraged, not from a bunch of other guys that aren't Native Americans (like you) that are offended for them.

It looks to me like Chief Dodson is voting A.  NO WAY!

Chief Dodson:   "'Redskin' isn't something given to us by the white man or the blue eyes, it was something in the Native American community that was taken from us. [It's] used also as a term of respect, because that's how we were. We respected each other with that term."

"People are speaking for Native Americans that aren't Native American. Being a full-blooded Indian with my whole family behind me, we had a big problem with all the things that were coming out [of the discussion]," he said. "I think they were basically saying that we were offended, our people were offended, and they were misrepresenting the Native American nation.

We don't have a problem with [the name] at all; in fact we're honored. We're quite honored."

"It is [an honor], it's a heritage. There's a lot of respect in it. A great pinnacle part of who we are as a nation has to do with pride and honor. And the Redskin name is that," he said. "That's one of the things we use as honor and respect toward each other.

"[I am] Irritated. Irritated is a polite term to say," he said. "When you have people trying to represent our nation, you should be from our nation. Don't represent our nation if you don't even have an ounce of blood in you."

Watch the video...by the way, Pakuni, this is 2013...a few months ago.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/native_american_indian_chief_says_he_is_honored_by_the_name_redskins/13546634

[ChicosBailBonds]

Time for the lock.

Again.  Sigh.

Why?  Good discussion, part of the mainstream discussion in America right now.  People on both sides.  What's to run away from?

[Sunbelt15]

ZFB's motto, "more poles, less polls"

I hope that's a stripper reference.    

[Eldon]

Native American nicknames: honoring tribes or insulting?

Rick Reilly

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9689220/redskins-name-change-not-easy-sounds


Summary: 'You think "Redskins & etc. is offensive, well here is another side to the argument.'  Goodell said "if even one person is offended we need to listen"  Well, some atheists are offended by Angels and Saints.  Some people lost loved ones to Hurricanes, and so on.  Reilly refuses to join other journalists who are apparently refusing to use "Redskins" when referring to the NFL franchise in an attempt to boycott the name

[Lennys Tap]

I think your choices are lame....sort of like an election with a douche and a turd...I wouldn't vote for any of them.

Fine. Make your own choice and fill in the blank: I think referring to Native Americans as "redskins" is --------

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Fine. Make your own choice and fill in the blank: I think referring to Native Americans as "redskins" is --------

Is "Indian" a racial slur?