2013 NFC North/NFL Thread

[wadesworld]

I'm sorry but you're clueless. Where to begin? Oh..nevermind. I'll just say this: the Bears wouldn't have beat Minnesota or Cincy with McCown starting. Also, if Cutler stayed healthy (or even close to healthy), they would have beaten Detroit.

Hahaha.  You're right, where to begin?  You can't even figure that one out.  Oh almighty never ending source of football knowledge that is MerrittsMustache, please do enlighten me on how a quarterback with the exact same cast around him (they do play for the same team, after all) can have a higher quarterback rating, total QBR, more yards per attempt, more yards per completion, a much higher touchdown to interception ratio, and a better winning percentage and yet the team is better off with the other quarterback in the game?  I'm the clueless one here, all the numbers add up to McCown, even with him playing a large percentage of his snaps to a game plan that was created for Jay Cutler to be under center and he is outperforming Cutler even in those games, but I know nothing.  You want the worse numbers and worse record, then?  Didn't know that's how football went, thank goodness Rodgers is hurt so we can start Tolzein!

Does Cutler have the better physical tools?  Absolutely.  No doubt about it.  But McCown is much, much, much better with his mechanics and with with his head.  No window to throw?  Get it to your check down.  McCown does that, Cutler doesn't, which leads to negative yards or a turnover.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that when Jay Cutler is under center the Packers are going to win the football game because we are going to have at least 2 takeaways, and if you give Aaron Rodgers the ball 2 extra times, and especially if they come with good field position, you have no chance.  I can't say all fans think that way, but as a Packer fan there is no doubt in my mind that the Packers will win going into a Bears game with Jay Cutler as the quarterback.  I am much more scared of quarterbacks like McCown or Andy Dalton or any quarterback who values the football, will make the smart football play, play to a game plan, and manage the game.

And you're kidding me, right?  You don't think the Bears would have beaten the Vikings if McCown had played in that game?  Man, oh man.  It is beyond comical that you say I am clueless.  The Bears were at home, against the VIKINGS, who are absolutely atrocious.  Jay Cutler turned the ball over THREE times in that game, including a fumble that was returned for a touchdown.  McCown has yet to turn the ball over once this season.  Would McCown have led the Bears to the game winning drive if they were down late in the game?  Chances are no.  But I can guarantee you that McCown would not have had the Bears needing a game winning drive to win that game.  You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about if you think the Vikings would have won had Jay Cutler not started for the Bears.  The fact of the matter is the only way the Vikings had a chance to beat the Bears was if Jay Cutler was starting.  Jay had a nice drive at the end of the game.  Well done.  Should've never needed it, though.

Listen, if you think having a quarterback who through half of a year has accounted for 1 more touchdown than he has turnovers is a recipe for success in the NFL, then more power to you.  You're wrong, but you can keep thinking that.

[wadesworld]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000062062/article/charles-woodson-on-cutler-same-old-jay

Charles Woodson absolutely hit the nail on the head.  "Same old Jay...Jay will throw us the ball."  Absolutely.  And the writer of this article hit the nail on the head, too.  "We still never know which Jay Cutler is going to show up on a given week."

I would much rather have a consistent quarterback with a low ceiling than one who will have a great game every now and then and a horrible game every now and then.  Much easier to game plan for the consistent quarterback who you know what you're going to get from.  There's a reason quarterbacks who successfully manage the game even if they don't have the incredible physical tools or huge numbers (such as Russell Wilson) lead teams to the Playoffs while players with the great physical tools but terrible mechanics and decision making skills have losing records year in and year out (such as Michael Vick).

[DegenerateDish]

Wow, can't believe that flag got picked up.

[MerrittsMustache]

Hahaha.  You're right, where to begin?  You can't even figure that one out.  Oh almighty never ending source of football knowledge that is MerrittsMustache, please do enlighten me on how a quarterback with the exact same cast around him (they do play for the same team, after all) can have a higher quarterback rating, total QBR, more yards per attempt, more yards per completion, a much higher touchdown to interception ratio, and a better winning percentage and yet the team is better off with the other quarterback in the game?  I'm the clueless one here, all the numbers add up to McCown, even with him playing a large percentage of his snaps to a game plan that was created for Jay Cutler to be under center and he is outperforming Cutler even in those games, but I know nothing.  You want the worse numbers and worse record, then?  Didn't know that's how football went, thank goodness Rodgers is hurt so we can start Tolzein!

Does Cutler have the better physical tools?  Absolutely.  No doubt about it.  But McCown is much, much, much better with his mechanics and with with his head.  No window to throw?  Get it to your check down.  McCown does that, Cutler doesn't, which leads to negative yards or a turnover.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that when Jay Cutler is under center the Packers are going to win the football game because we are going to have at least 2 takeaways, and if you give Aaron Rodgers the ball 2 extra times, and especially if they come with good field position, you have no chance.  I can't say all fans think that way, but as a Packer fan there is no doubt in my mind that the Packers will win going into a Bears game with Jay Cutler as the quarterback.  I am much more scared of quarterbacks like McCown or Andy Dalton or any quarterback who values the football, will make the smart football play, play to a game plan, and manage the game.

And you're kidding me, right?  You don't think the Bears would have beaten the Vikings if McCown had played in that game?  Man, oh man.  It is beyond comical that you say I am clueless.  The Bears were at home, against the VIKINGS, who are absolutely atrocious.  Jay Cutler turned the ball over THREE times in that game, including a fumble that was returned for a touchdown.  McCown has yet to turn the ball over once this season.  Would McCown have led the Bears to the game winning drive if they were down late in the game?  Chances are no.  But I can guarantee you that McCown would not have had the Bears needing a game winning drive to win that game.  You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about if you think the Vikings would have won had Jay Cutler not started for the Bears.  The fact of the matter is the only way the Vikings had a chance to beat the Bears was if Jay Cutler was starting.  Jay had a nice drive at the end of the game.  Well done.  Should've never needed it, though.

Listen, if you think having a quarterback who through half of a year has accounted for 1 more touchdown than he has turnovers is a recipe for success in the NFL, then more power to you.  You're wrong, but you can keep thinking that.

I guess you're smarter than an NFL head coach with 30+ years of coaching experience, primarily with quarterbacks AND every GM in the NFL.

[mu03eng]

Wow, can't believe that flag got picked up.

What's worse that the flag was picked up or the ESPN "rules" expert staunchly defended it?

I normally hate Peter King's blatherings but I have to agree with every single thing he wrote here
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/19/carolina-panthers-new-england-patriots-bad-call/?eref=sihp

[MerrittsMustache]

What's worse that the flag was picked up or the ESPN "rules" expert staunchly defended it?

I normally hate Peter King's blatherings but I have to agree with every single thing he wrote here
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/19/carolina-panthers-new-england-patriots-bad-call/?eref=sihp

I agree that the official needed to give more of an explanation, especially to the head coaches. The fact of the matter is that the pass was uncatchable. If Brady had sailed it over Gronk's head, there would be no controversy. You just don't see "uncatchable" called on underthrows very often.


Sidenote: I've long been of the belief that pass interference should not be called on underthrown deep balls that result in the receiver stopping and the DB running into him. That call basically rewards the QB for making a bad throw. The NFL loves offense so it's obviously not going to change that but it's really something the rules committee should look at.

[JWags85]

Weird you say that.  If the offense is so vanilla with McCown but so complex with Cutler in there, you would think they would be doing better things on offense with Cutler in the game, and you'd think that Cutler would be throwing a lot more long balls than McCown.  But it's interesting, no matter how you slice it McCown's numbers are better.  Yards per attempt?  7.2 for Cutler compared to 7.5 for McCown.  Now let me guess, the Bears fans will say, "Well, Cutler attempts more long balls and has more incompletions weighing those numbers down!  Get a clue!"  Well, OK.  Yards per completion?  11.4 for Cutler compared to 12.4 for McCown.  So...what now?  McCown must just get lucky and all of a sudden Bears receivers remember how to run after the catch, while with Cutler they just get taken down immediately.  Or something like that.  And Cutler's completion percentage is higher than McCown's, sitting at 63% compared to 60%, so he has that going for him.  Otherwise, 13 touchdowns with 8 interceptions and 4 fumbles for Cutler compared to 5 touchdowns with no turnovers at all for McCown in under 1/2 the attempts that Cutler has.  Cutler's QBR is 63.2 compared to McCown's 81.3.  But yeah, it's all because of the vanilla offense the Bears run with McCown.  That's what makes all of McCown's numbers better than Cutler's.  And the fact that when McCown is in the game they win.  2-0 with McCown starting, 4-4 with Cutler starting.  McCown was the one who actually came in and gave them a shot to win against the Redskins and Lions.  Had he started both those games, chances are the Bears are 7-3 or 8-2.

And if this is Cutler's best season as Chicago's QB, then the Bears should be doing everything they can to get someone else in there.  QB rating of 82.4?  7.2 yards per attempt?  13 touchdowns to 8 interceptions with 4 fumbles?  That's 1 more touchdown than it is turnovers.  That is horrendous.

You make good points.  I'll say a few things and then just let this be.

1) When I referred to this being Cutler's best season, I mentally was stripping out the Lions game.  You take away that first half, in which he rarely, if ever, was able to complete dropbacks or progressions due to the fact that Fairley and Suh were in his grill almost immediately, and all of a sudden his season looks alot better.  Very good games against Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and NYG, good games against NO and Minnesota, and then the incomplete Redskins game and a game against the Lions where he clearly wasn't all there.  I realize you will immediately balk at that Lions omission, but if you don't recognize that he was in a situation as bad as any in his time with the Bears in the first half, well, then you're being obtuse.  Its hard to blame a QB for a fumble when he is blasted from the blind side repeatedly even as he's tucking the ball.

2) Again, taking nothing away from McCown, but he's put up his numbers against a 3-7 Redskins team, a 4-6 Ravens team, and a Packers team who was broken and in shambles. But hey, Cutler didn't even finish the half against the Redskins and you still credited him with the loss though I guarantee if they had pulled it out, you would have slide that into a 3-0 figure for McCown.

3) For as "horrendous" as you say Cutler has been, you take away that Lions game and his QBR would be around 70-71, which would put him top 5 in the league this year.  Even with the mediocre injured performance 2 weeks ago.

[GGGG]

NFL is a whole lotta bad this year.

Very mediocre this year.  Top heavy.  I think the playoffs are going to be sensational however.

[MU B2002]

......blah blah.  I am much more scared of quarterbacks like McCown or Andy Dalton or any quarterback who values the football, will make the smart football play, play to a game plan, and manage the game....

etc etc

Andy Dalton
Yds 2954
avg 7.21
TD 21
INT 15
Fum 4
QBR 50.1
Rat 85.2


Jay Cutler
Yds 1905
avg 7.20
TD 13
INT 8
Fum 4
QBR 63.2
Rat 88.4

Lol, the Red Rocket...


Dare I say it, Andy Dalton values the football less than Jay Cutler. With more turnovers, lower QBR, lower Rating, and a whopping .01 yards higher average.

[brandx]

Let's just say that if Emery & Trestman valued Cutler as much as a couple of the posters here do - he would already be signed to a long-term deal

[MU B2002]

Let's just say that if Emery & Trestman valued Cutler as much as a couple of the posters here do - he would already be signed to a long-term deal

Because it's just that easy.


And look don't get me wrong, I know Jay has his short comings.  I just think the argument that the Bears are better off long-term with McCown has some holes.

[DegenerateDish]

Very mediocre this year.  Top heavy.  I think the playoffs are going to be sensational however.

Indy/Cincy game coming up is going to be huge. In the AFC, you do not want to be the 4 seed.

Before injuries started mounting up, I thought I had a good read on things. You could possibly have a first weekend Saints @ Eagles game in Philly, which could be wild.

[mu03eng]

I agree that the official needed to give more of an explanation, especially to the head coaches. The fact of the matter is that the pass was uncatchable. If Brady had sailed it over Gronk's head, there would be no controversy. You just don't see "uncatchable" called on underthrows very often.


Sidenote: I've long been of the belief that pass interference should not be called on underthrown deep balls that result in the receiver stopping and the DB running into him. That call basically rewards the QB for making a bad throw. The NFL loves offense so it's obviously not going to change that but it's really something the rules committee should look at.

You're rule change would have a significant impact on the back shoulder throws that are so prevalent in the NFL today.

The issue I have with your interpretation of uncatchable is, if Gronk is not getting pushed to the back of the end zone is it uncatchable?  Do I think he makes the catch?  No, but I definitely think he can compete for it.  Even if it's not PI it sure as heck is illegal contact.  Either way a foul was committed that has to be called.

[MerrittsMustache]

Let's just say that if Emery & Trestman valued Cutler as much as a couple of the posters here do - he would already be signed to a long-term deal

Let's just say that if Emery & Trestman valued McCown as much as a couple of the posters here do - he would have been named the starter even when Cutler comes back.

[brandx]

Because it's just that easy.


And look don't get me wrong, I know Jay has his short comings.  I just think the argument that the Bears are better off long-term with McCown has some holes.

I agree. I just don't think a smart move is to pay $100 mil + to a middle of the road QB

[GGGG]

Indy/Cincy game coming up is going to be huge. In the AFC, you do not want to be the 4 seed.

Before injuries started mounting up, I thought I had a good read on things. You could possibly have a first weekend Saints @ Eagles game in Philly, which could be wild.

How about San Francisco at Detroit?

[DegenerateDish]

How about San Francisco at Detroit?

You're right. That would be a heck of a pair of NFC Wild Card games.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I think people here are still bitter that the Bears backup beat the Packers and are looking for any excuse to make the loss seem more manageable. Cutler is better, end of story. If you told me right now if you had to choose Cutler or McCown to start a franchise you would pick Cutler every time.

[wadesworld]

I think people here are still bitter that the Bears backup beat the Packers and are looking for any excuse to make the loss seem more manageable. Cutler is better, end of story. If you told me right now if you had to choose Cutler or McCown to start a franchise you would pick Cutler every time.

Haha, WHAT?!  That's cute.

[MUeng]

I think people here are still bitter that the Bears backup beat the Packers and are looking for any excuse to make the loss seem more manageable. Cutler is better, end of story. If you told me right now if you had to choose Cutler or McCown to start a franchise you would pick Cutler every time.

Cutler vs McCown to start a franchise isn't exactly promising.  JJ Watt is a better option, just sayin.

[wardle2wade]

I think people here are still bitter that the Bears backup beat the Packers and are looking for any excuse to make the loss seem more manageable. Cutler is better, end of story. If you told me right now if you had to choose Cutler or McCown to start a franchise you would pick Cutler every time.

This. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

I think people here are still bitter that the Bears backup beat the Packers and are looking for any excuse to make the loss seem more manageable. Cutler is better, end of story. If you told me right now if you had to choose Cutler or McCown to start a franchise you would pick Cutler every time.

nah that loss is far in the rear view ... but you made me think of your post when I saw that Frazier is starting Ponder against GB this week "because of his previous success against GB". If you had to start a franchise with Ponder, Cassell or Freeman....

Ponder is 1-4 LOL but I will say he's got a good shot this week with GB in the shape their in and their defense playing poorly lately

[tower912]

If you are a Detroit d-lineman, and you make contact with the quarterback's legs from behind, WHILE HE STILL HAS THE BALL, it is roughing the passer. 

[DegenerateDish]

Stick a fork in the Pack.

[GGGG]

Stick a fork in the Pack.

Complete defensive meltdown.  Just like last year.