Washington rids itself of sexist language

[keefe]

I was just meeting nonsense with nonsense.  Sorry.

Nothing Chico said about humans having a range of work ethic, ambition, intelligence, risk aversion, etc... is incorrect. Which is precisely why large, post-industrial societies cannot make centrally planned economic systems work. Ask your favorite Pole, Russian, Estonian, Hungarian, etc.. how well it worked. If you genuinely believe in Karl Marx' panacea I strongly urge you to spend a year in North Korea or Cuba and then we can talk.

[Eldon]

It's not so dichotomous.  You can agree that central planning and social safety nets are more efficient (and thus desirable) than the free market in some instances while still maintaining that Marxist economics is a terrible (as both theory and history show) ideology.  Even the 'anarchy' of the great Robert Nozick is consistent with an interventionist government for purposes of creating and ensuring equal opportunity (rather than forcing equal outcomes).

And embracing capitalism does not entail 'returning to child labor'.

It is truly unfortunate for our society that we need to be reminded of this.

[keefe]

It's not so dichotomous.  You can agree that central planning and social safety nets are more efficient (and thus desirable) than the free market in some instances while still maintaining that Marxist economics is a terrible (as both theory and history show) ideology.  Even the 'anarchy' of the great Robert Nozick is consistent with an interventionist government for purposes of creating and ensuring equal opportunity (rather than forcing equal outcomes).

And embracing capitalism does not entail 'returning to child labor'.

It is truly unfortunate for our society that we need to be reminded of this.

Replacing free market demand mechanisms with centralized planning models are efficient in times of crisis. FDR coopted the American industrial base in 1942, replacing automobiles and refrigerators with tanks and aircraft. In exigent circumstances it is warranted to supplant free market dictates but such applications must be limited in both scope and duration.

The reality is that we have neither a libertarian free market system nor a Soviet centrally planned forced draft industrialized archetype. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

The reality is that we have neither a libertarian free market system nor a Soviet centrally planned forced draft industrialized archetype. 

100% correct.  As I've said often here, there is no free market system here and when people say there is, they are just flat wrong.  Gov't regulation exists all over the place, some industries more than others, but there is not true free market.  It comes down to a matter of degree in which things are measured to determine if it is more free or less free depending on that regulation.

[Lennys Tap]

100% correct.  As I've said often here, there is no free market system here and when people say there is, they are just flat wrong.  Gov't regulation exists all over the place, some industries more than others, but there is not true free market.  It comes down to a matter of degree in which things are measured to determine if it is more free or less free depending on that regulation.

Nobody ever suggested we have a free market system. In fact, nowhere near it. And the further we move away from it and towards a blend of central planning/crony quasi-capitalism the less vibrant/competitive we become. But as long as there are enough "it's ok in my industry, we're an exception" guys out there willing to "partner up" and basically get guarantees from Uncle Sam we'll continue down that road. Sadly.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

. Ask your favorite Pole, Russian, Estonian, Hungarian, etc.. how well it worked. If you genuinely believe in Karl Marx' panacea I strongly urge you to spend a year in North Korea or Cuba and then we can talk.

When in the Czech Republic all we heard was how good things were "since the Communists"

[keefe]

When in the Czech Republic all we heard was how good things were "since the Communists"

And Mr. Dubcek's "Socialism with a Human Face" Czechoslovakia was the least compliant of Moscow's Cavalcade of Brother Socialist States. Imagine how awful it was in the Baltic States or the DDR which felt the jack booted heel more earnestly. Communism was the most morally bankrupt political and economic philosophy of the Nation State Era.

[Hards Alumni]

Nothing Chico said about humans having a range of work ethic, ambition, intelligence, risk aversion, etc... is incorrect. Which is precisely why large, post-industrial societies cannot make centrally planned economic systems work. Ask your favorite Pole, Russian, Estonian, Hungarian, etc.. how well it worked. If you genuinely believe in Karl Marx' panacea I strongly urge you to spend a year in North Korea or Cuba and then we can talk.

But you're both taking what I said, and stretching it to fit what you are getting at.  I was making a joke and pointing out the absurdity of his original comment.

[keefe]

But you're both taking what I said, and stretching it to fit what you are getting at.  I was making a joke and pointing out the absurdity of his original comment.

Wait! Are you saying Chico said something absurd?? 

[GGGG]

Nobody ever suggested we have a free market system. In fact, nowhere near it. And the further we move away from it and towards a blend of central planning/crony quasi-capitalism the less vibrant/competitive we become. But as long as there are enough "it's ok in my industry, we're an exception" guys out there willing to "partner up" and basically get guarantees from Uncle Sam we'll continue down that road. Sadly.

Isn't it all relative?  I mean, "less vibrant/competitive" compared to whom?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nobody ever suggested we have a free market system. In fact, nowhere near it. And the further we move away from it and towards a blend of central planning/crony quasi-capitalism the less vibrant/competitive we become. But as long as there are enough "it's ok in my industry, we're an exception" guys out there willing to "partner up" and basically get guarantees from Uncle Sam we'll continue down that road. Sadly.

Nobody?  Go back and read some of the posts in the other threads where this came up....several did.  Emphatically.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

That part is the key.  There are people that fundamentally are lazy, don't want to do jack squat and there are those that want to work, innovate, create, risk, etc....those people are not rewarded in that situation.  We already have enough of this nonsense going on here where we pay people to stay unemployed, provide additional funding for extra kids, etc.  What could possibly go wrong?

Yeah, I really wanted to stay unemployed for those 6 months back in 2009.  The worst 6 months months of my life.  It's extremely frustrating, when there weren't even openings or listings to apply for.  Thank God for Unemployment Insurance.  I may have lost my house without it.  It is what it says it is --- insurance.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, I really wanted to stay unemployed for those 6 months back in 2009.  The worst 6 months months of my life.  It's extremely frustrating, when there weren't even openings or listings to apply for.  Thank God for Unemployment Insurance.  I may have lost my house without it.  It is what it says it is --- insurance.

You seem to be thinking that my comments were addressed to all unemployed.  Most certainly NOT the case, especially in recent years. Those programs I support as do most Americans as a safety net for your very situations.  They are the right thing to do.

I'm talking about people that have made it a life choice not to work and we reward that behavior.  I'm talking about two of my cousins in the midwest, one who worked for Ford for a number of years.  Nancy Pelosi's daughter, Alexandra, is a liberal filmmaker and did a great video expose of this a few years ago on the Bill Maher show...much to Bill's dismay.   That is what I'm talking about.  We are creating an entitlement culture.  That is what I was referencing.   No incentive to work because Uncle Sammy will take care of them.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Sounds like my brother-in-law and his wife. Disability and ,then for both, unemployment for years. Neither had any intention of returning to the workforce. Now living off investments in Italy.
That being said, I also know people with  great skills who have spent years looking for employment and can't find

[keefe]

Sounds like my brother-in-law and his wife. Disability and ,then for both, unemployment for years. Neither had any intention of returning to the workforce. Now living off investments in Italy.

Wow. Are they hiring?

[forgetful]

Sounds like my brother-in-law and his wife. Disability and ,then for both, unemployment for years. Neither had any intention of returning to the workforce. Now living off investments in Italy.
That being said, I also know people with  great skills who have spent years looking for employment and can't find

Do you know how much they pay for disability?  Good luck living off of that.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

We're in California. With both "incomes" they managed to live well in Santa Barbara

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do you know how much they pay for disability?  Good luck living off of that.

California state disability maxes out at $55K per year, or $1067 per week.

That doesn't even include the federal disability, which I believe maxes out at $2053 per month, or about $30.4K per year.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong on that number.

[Coleman]

You seem to be thinking that my comments were addressed to all unemployed.  Most certainly NOT the case, especially in recent years. Those programs I support as do most Americans as a safety net for your very situations.  They are the right thing to do.

I'm talking about people that have made it a life choice not to work and we reward that behavior.  I'm talking about two of my cousins in the midwest, one who worked for Ford for a number of years.  Nancy Pelosi's daughter, Alexandra, is a liberal filmmaker and did a great video expose of this a few years ago on the Bill Maher show...much to Bill's dismay.   That is what I'm talking about.  We are creating an entitlement culture.  That is what I was referencing.   No incentive to work because Uncle Sammy will take care of them.

The problem is that conservatives (ok, maybe not you, but most) keep using these anecdotal examples of abuse as reasons to defund entire safety net programs, eliminating them for the rest of Americans who rely on the programs as they were intended.

[forgetful]

California state disability maxes out at $55K per year, or $1067 per week.

That doesn't even include the federal disability, which I believe maxes out at $2053 per month, or about $30.4K per year.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong on that number.

You leave out the fact that in California you can receive a maximum of 52 weeks at that rate and in order to qualify for that maximum you need to be making close to $110K per year.  It also takes on average 11 months to get a disability hearing.

[Coleman]

100% correct.  As I've said often here, there is no free market system here and when people say there is, they are just flat wrong.  Gov't regulation exists all over the place, some industries more than others, but there is not true free market.  It comes down to a matter of degree in which things are measured to determine if it is more free or less free depending on that regulation.

As it should be. This economic model has served our country incredibly well. The regulated capitalism our country embraced in the 20th century led us through the greatest economic expansion of any country in history. It is the change from the proven successful status quo that many progressives oppose.

[Lennys Tap]

As it should be. This economic model has served our country incredibly well. The regulated capitalism our country embraced in the 20th century led us through the greatest economic expansion of any country in history. It is the change from the proven successful status quo that many progressives oppose.

Nobody denies the need for some regulation, but I respectfully disagree that progressive programs like Dodd/Frank, Cap and Trade, Obamacare, etc are somehow maintaining the successful status quo.

[Coleman]

Nobody denies the need for some regulation, but I respectfully disagree that progressive programs like Dodd/Frank, Cap and Trade, Obamacare, etc are somehow maintaining the successful status quo.

To be clear, when I refer to status quo I mean that regulation which was in place for most of the 20th century that was completely dismantled in the 80s, 90s and 2000s under presidents Reagan, Clinton and W Bush. Dodd-Frank is just a watered-down version of Glass-Steagall which was repealed in the 90s, "Cap and Trade" was favored by many Republicans before Obama took office and Obamacare was modeled off the health care proposals of Richard Nixon (originator of the employer mandate) and Mitt Romney. It was status quo until the right need to something to rail against to rally the base.

[Lennys Tap]

To be clear, when I refer to status quo I mean that regulation which was in place for most of the 20th century that was completely dismantled in the 80s, 90s and 2000s under presidents Reagan, Clinton and W Bush. Dodd-Frank is just a watered-down version of Glass-Steagall which was repealed in the 90s, "Cap and Trade" was favored by many Republicans before Obama took office and Obamacare was modeled off the health care proposals of Richard Nixon and Mitt Romney. It was status quo until the right need to something to rail against to rally the base.

I have/had no problem with Glass-Steagall. Goldman Sachs et al acting as both principal and agent is a conflict of interest. Any small portion of Dodd-Frank that addresses that conflict I'm all for. I'm not for saddling small businesses with mountains of needless paperwork, though. I don't care who has favored Cap and Trade in the past - it's never been part of the status quo and it's a job killer when we can least afford it. Ditto for Obamacare.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The problem is that conservatives (ok, maybe not you, but most) keep using these anecdotal examples of abuse as reasons to defund entire safety net programs, eliminating them for the rest of Americans who rely on the programs as they were intended.

Perhaps if there was a bit more adult supervision on who gets things and who doesn't, there would be a lot less cynicism.   The amount of fraud going on is ridiculous.

Secondly, I'd like to see where the majority of conservatives want to defund the ENTIRE safety nets programs.  That's a red herring.  Sure there are some, just as there are some liberals who would like to eliminate the department of defense, but that doesn't mean everyone.