C7 Announcement Rumor

[Dawson Rental]

I know I should be happy that MU is in much better shape than they were a month ago...but I just can't get over the disappointment of going from a top conference in the nation to what? the 5th to 7th best conference? I will forever hate West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, Cincinatti...I hope they lose every football game they play fror the rest of time.

It was one fantastic ride...

The other schools only did what MU would have done in their place, the real culprit was the rise in the importance of sports programming on cable, and state legislatures willing to subsidize football at state schools.

[brewcity77]

I know I should be happy that MU is in much better shape than they were a month ago...but I just can't get over the disappointment of going from a top conference in the nation to what? the 5th to 7th best conference? I will forever hate West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, Cincinatti...I hope they lose every football game they play fror the rest of time.

I'd rather be one of the leading teams in a conference where we can control our own destiny than hoping to be just another name in a conference where we are everyone's bitch.

And honestly, I think this conference could end up being one of the 2-3 best basketball conferences. I realize that we aren't going to be that now, but is it hard to believe that the conference winner will be a 1 or 2 seed most every year? And that in some years this league could have 2 teams fighting it out to the end that both end up on the top-two seed lines?

JTIII will almost certainly stay, and if this league can quickly become competitive, maybe Buzz, Brad Stevens, and Shaka (come on, VCU!) all stick around. No reason at all those guys can't have their teams perennially in the top-25. I look at virtually every team in this league as one that has a very good chance to be very good. If we add Xavier, Butler, Dayton, VCU, and Creighton, the league has an excellent young coaching foundation of Thompson, Williams, Wright, Stevens, and Smart. I look at Miller, McDermott, Mack, Cooley, and Willard all as guys that have the ability to be highly successful. Lavin has shown he can recruit to St. John's, which only leaves DePaul. Give them a fiery young recruiter in Chicago and they could compete again.

There isn't a team in this league that doesn't have upside potential, and this league will appeal to recruits who want to go somewhere that basketball is king. Keep most of the coaches intact and this league could be right there with the ACC and Big Ten in a decade. I know people don't see it now, but this could very well end up a league that is sending 5-7 teams every year and has 10-12 members in the top-100 every year. It'll take time, but I'd rather have that potential than feel like we're just waiting for the next shoe in an Imelda Marcos size closet to drop.

[Dawson Rental]

I'd rather be one of the leading teams in a conference where we can control our own destiny than hoping to be just another name in a conference where we are everyone's bitch.

And honestly, I think this conference could end up being one of the 2-3 best basketball conferences. I realize that we aren't going to be that now, but is it hard to believe that the conference winner will be a 1 or 2 seed most every year? And that in some years this league could have 2 teams fighting it out to the end that both end up on the top-two seed lines?

JTIII will almost certainly stay, and if this league can quickly become competitive, maybe Buzz, Brad Stevens, and Shaka (come on, VCU!) all stick around. No reason at all those guys can't have their teams perennially in the top-25. I look at virtually every team in this league as one that has a very good chance to be very good. If we add Xavier, Butler, Dayton, VCU, and Creighton, the league has an excellent young coaching foundation of Thompson, Williams, Wright, Stevens, and Smart. I look at Miller, McDermott, Mack, Cooley, and Willard all as guys that have the ability to be highly successful. Lavin has shown he can recruit to St. John's, which only leaves DePaul. Give them a fiery young recruiter in Chicago and they could compete again.

There isn't a team in this league that doesn't have upside potential, and this league will appeal to recruits who want to go somewhere that basketball is king. Keep most of the coaches intact and this league could be right there with the ACC and Big Ten in a decade. I know people don't see it now, but this could very well end up a league that is sending 5-7 teams every year and has 10-12 members in the top-100 every year. It'll take time, but I'd rather have that potential than feel like we're just waiting for the next shoe in an Imelda Marcos size closet to drop.

More from the man who correctly predicted we'd beat LSU when others said the sky was falling....

[slingkong]

No one knows anything about how these future teams will be (including us), but we must make sure the ones we do add are financially and institutionally committed to successful men's basketball and overall athletics.

What exactly shows that Dayton meets that criteria?  That's the unanswered question.

[Dawson Rental]

What exactly shows that Dayton meets that criteria?  That's the unanswered question.

Second to Xavier in basketball revenue among the likely candidates.  >10 million.

13,435 seat capacity home arena.

[Benny B]

What exactly shows that Dayton meets that criteria?  That's the unanswered question.

I think the first thing would be an unequivocal promise to never hire Jean Lenti Ponsetto.

[frozena pizza]

More from the man who correctly predicted we'd beat LSU when others said the sky was falling....

What's your point?  We were a 10 point favorite in that game and barely won.

[Bocephys]

Second to Xavier in basketball revenue among the likely candidates.  >10 million.

13,435 seat capacity home arena.

Do they make a profit?  I'm actually surprised their revenue is that high, though.  Sure makes them a more interesting candidate than before.

[brewcity77]

What exactly shows that Dayton meets that criteria?  That's the unanswered question.

I know Dayton's largely been derided through this process, and their largely delusional fanbase seems to be the primary reason for it. Here are the reasons I think Dayton should be a must-add...

• Attendance: They pack UD Arena every game and their attendance would only be behind Marquette of the C7. It's a passionate fanbase that turns out for arguably the biggest sporting event in the city.
  
• Revenue: Dayton is a cash cow, bringing in over $10M per year, more than any C7 school aside from Marquette. I'd like to see them put more into basketball (just under $4M right now) but with a new TV contract and more exposure they can bring that up.
  
• Consistency: We all like tourney teams, but not everyone can be Gonzaga. But we also don't want teams that will be RPI drains. Dayton is a consistent top-100 team. They may not always be top-50, but they won't be a bad loss and should never really hurt anyone else's NCAA chances.
  
• Archie Miller: Of their past 3 coaches, I think Miller could be the best. Purnell went on to success at Clemson while Gregory hasn't fared well at Ga Tech. Miller learned from Darrin Horn, Thad Matta, Herb Sendek, and brother Sean Miller. He's ready, though I'm not sure he'll be at Dayton for the long haul.
  
• Love to hate: Maybe not the best reason, but their fans seem to be the douchiest of douchebags. Like Notre Dame and Wisconsin, Dayton is a team that just naturally seems to be a magnet for rival vitriol. Just ask Xavier fans, they seem to absolutely despise these guys. I'd rather have rivals I really dislike...it's made it so much easier with Cincy and Loserville over the years.
  
• Who's better? Also not the best reason, but if you get Xavier, Butler, Creighton, and VCU, who else is there? Wichita State? Please, they have less tourney success than Dayton. Gonzaga? I love them, but I'm sure they were among the first asked, and if they aren't being mentioned, it's because they already said no. St. Louis, St. Joe's, Richmond, Belmont, Oakland, or Valpo? Are any of them sexier than Dayton? No. And that's sad, because the only thing sexy about Dayton is their strip clubs (surprisingly quality) but once you get past the regular tourney participants, the best bet really is the perennial top-100 team that draws tons of local attention, fans, and most importantly, dollars.

[GGGG]

DeCourcy on the inequitable television revenue:

"So after years of complaining they didn't have a proper and equivalent voice with the Big East football schools, after exiting that league in order to achieve it, the Catholic 7 will attempt to force a similar arrangement on the three to five schools they ask to fill out their league. It's greedy, and it's dumb.

...

If the Catholic 7 actually use this approach on their prospective partners, they might be surprised by how indifferently they are greeted. If the Catholic 7 want a league that works, they should be looking to form partnerships with these universities, not arrangements.

[GGGG]

And he just retweeted...

Mike Jensen ‏@jensenoffcampus
@tsnmike I'm told whoever floated that unequal share proposal 100 percent wasn't speaking for entire Catholic 7.

[brewcity77]

If the Catholic 7 actually use this approach on their prospective partners, they might be surprised by how indifferently they are greeted. If the Catholic 7 want a league that works, they should be looking to form partnerships with these universities, not arrangements.

If it's the long-term end, I agree. But I'm sure you've seen the hypothetical figures of how much this is going to cost us. If it's $10M per, I'm thinking we'd be getting off easy. Probably closer to $15M per C7 school.

If the total figure if $500M for 12 years, less $5M per C7 school, that's $1.33M per year for all the non-C7 schools. The disparity of $3.67M would take just over 4 years for the C7 to make up what they would be losing if it's costing us all $15M each.

Put a 5-year sunset on the deal, after 5 years everyone gets $3.47M per year, or graduate it to 7-8 years so that they slowly come down while we come up. I really don't think long-term anyone plans for us to be making 3-4 times what they are making. This is all coming from one article that talked about us getting a larger share to start and everyone is running with it like Chicken Little, spreading chaos on the Butler and Dayton message boards.

You yourself have pointed out that the B1G and Pac-12 have done this with new members. You make less until you earn your way into the top income bracket. I don't see how this is any different than that, except that people with little information are trying to spread large panic. This is such a non-story I can't believe it's even being seriously discussed.

[NavinRJohnson]

What exactly shows that Dayton meets that criteria?  That's the unanswered question.

Is this a serious question? They are in the top ~25 in the country in BBall attendance, literally every season. UD arena has hosted more NCAA tournament games than any other. Bottom line, people show up no matter what. Ohio is obviously a huge basketball state, and they are located right between Columbus and Cincinatti. Other than the recent success under Shaka Smart, I see very little difference between Dayton and VCU. Either would be fine, but for anyone to suggest that VCU over Dayton is some sort of no-brainier is kinda silly.

[warriorchick]

What is the arrangement between UD and the NCAA regarding the play-in round of the tourney?  Is there a contract in place, and when does it end?

Having millions of anxious college hoops fans focusing on activity at the UD Arena every year wouldn't hurt the C7 profile.

[Aughnanure]

Do they make a profit?  I'm actually surprised their revenue is that high, though.  Sure makes them a more interesting candidate than before.

Spreadsheet time. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlfWy6_OYXQRdExSWlMzTm1odDNXalVVNERtWFZRQmc&output=html

[tower912]

DeCourcy on the inequitable television revenue:

"So after years of complaining they didn't have a proper and equivalent voice with the Big East football schools, after exiting that league in order to achieve it, the Catholic 7 will attempt to force a similar arrangement on the three to five schools they ask to fill out their league. It's greedy, and it's dumb.

...

If the Catholic 7 actually use this approach on their prospective partners, they might be surprised by how indifferently they are greeted. If the Catholic 7 want a league that works, they should be looking to form partnerships with these universities, not arrangements.

So many here advocating treating other schools as second class citizens need their brains checked. 

[Aughnanure]

Is this a serious question? They are in the top ~25 in the country in BBall attendance, literally every season. UD arena has hosted more NCAA tournament games than any other. Bottom line, people show up no matter what. Ohio is obviously a huge basketball state, and they are located right between Columbus and Cincinatti. Other than the recent success under Shaka Smart, I see very little difference between Dayton and VCU. Either would be fine, but for anyone to suggest that VCU over Dayton is some sort of no-brainier is kinda silly.

I do. Dayton is the better fit and better suited for longer-term success after their coach leaves. VCU has ONE tournament run and just now is filling their 6,000 seat arena - and we're all acting like they're the biggest prize.  Dayton values, and has valued, basketball significantly more than VCU ever has - and that's important.

[GGGG]

If it's the long-term end, I agree. But I'm sure you've seen the hypothetical figures of how much this is going to cost us. If it's $10M per, I'm thinking we'd be getting off easy. Probably closer to $15M per C7 school.

If the total figure if $500M for 12 years, less $5M per C7 school, that's $1.33M per year for all the non-C7 schools. The disparity of $3.67M would take just over 4 years for the C7 to make up what they would be losing if it's costing us all $15M each.

Put a 5-year sunset on the deal, after 5 years everyone gets $3.47M per year, or graduate it to 7-8 years so that they slowly come down while we come up. I really don't think long-term anyone plans for us to be making 3-4 times what they are making. This is all coming from one article that talked about us getting a larger share to start and everyone is running with it like Chicken Little, spreading chaos on the Butler and Dayton message boards.

You yourself have pointed out that the B1G and Pac-12 have done this with new members. You make less until you earn your way into the top income bracket. I don't see how this is any different than that, except that people with little information are trying to spread large panic. This is such a non-story I can't believe it's even being seriously discussed.

I think that if these cost issues are indeed accurate, that new entrants will get a chance to review the figures and gain a better understanding of the reasoning behind an initial inequity in revenue.

[Aughnanure]

So many here advocating treating other schools as second class citizens need their brains checked. 

I think most who were were advocating it on a temporary basis - i.e.  for setting up conference, securing lawyers, working out deals, paying exist fees, purchasing Big East name.

[NavinRJohnson]

I do. Dayton is the better fit and better suited for longer-term success after their coach leaves. VCU has ONE tournament run and just now is filling their 6,000 seat arena - and we're all acting like they're the biggest prize.  Dayton values, and has valued, basketball significantly more than VCU ever has - and that's important.

Completely agree. From an overall profile/fit standpoint, a much stronger case could be made for UD over VCU.

[Dawson Rental]

Spreadsheet time.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlfWy6_OYXQRdExSWlMzTm1odDNXalVVNERtWFZRQmc&output=html

Higher five year average attendance than Xavier or UConn.

Filled arenas look good on TV.  Ask DePaul about trying to hide low attendance from the cameras.

[GGGG]

I do. Dayton is the better fit and better suited for longer-term success after their coach leaves. VCU has ONE tournament run and just now is filling their 6,000 seat arena - and we're all acting like they're the biggest prize.  Dayton values, and has valued, basketball significantly more than VCU ever has - and that's important.

In reality, the profile of VCU as an institution is kind of like a better UWM.  It is a school where most students commute, and while they may fill a 6,000 seat arena, that is out of a student body of 30,000+.

[Aughnanure]

In reality, the profile of VCU as an institution is kind of like a better UWM.  It is a school where most students commute, and while they may fill a 6,000 seat arena, that is out of a student body of 30,000+.

BOOM. This +1000. Richmond is the school you'd actually want in the Richmond market. Better academics, better fit, better arena and a boatload of money to elevate their program and facilities.

[Dawson Rental]

BOOM. This +1000. Richmond is the school you'd actually want in the Richmond market. Better academics, better fit, better arena and a boatload of money to elevate their program and facilities.

And they might be the only program that could hire away Shaka Smart since Smart's wife wants to stay in Richmond.

[mileskishnish72]

I thought I read somewhere that the C7 schools would not have to pay exit fees and that it might have something to do with the number of schools involved. Anyone know what the real deal on that is?