Junior Seau dead

[77ncaachamps]

Possible suicide. Gunshot to the chest.

Roid rage? Depression? Brain damage?

Sad...

[🏀]

The end of the NFL as we know it has started.

[flash]

Very sad, I always liked him as a player, he was one of the best

[Blackhat]

 eight guys from '94 Charger Super Bowl team already dead.

Chris Mims - Died from an enlarged heart (was 455 lbs at his death)
David Griggs - Died in a high-speed car crash
Rodney Culver - Died in a plane crash (the ValueJet crash in the Everglades)
Lewis Bush - Died of a heart attack
Chris Whitley - Died of a drug overdose
Shawn Lee - Died of a heart attack
Doug Miller - Died after being struck by lightning
Junior Seau-suicide

[77ncaachamps]

eight guys from '94 Charger Super Bowl team already dead.

Chris Mims - Died from an enlarged heart (was 455 lbs at his death)
David Griggs - Died in a high-speed car crash
Rodney Culver - Died in a plane crash (the ValueJet crash in the Everglades)
Lewis Bush - Died of a heart attack
Chris Whitley - Died of a drug overdose
Shawn Lee - Died of a heart attack
Doug Miller - Died after being struck by lightning
Junior Seau-suicide

He was a Bolt til the very end.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

I'm sure this has to do with concussions.

[reinko]

I'm sure this has to do with concussions.

Astute.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Astute.

There is a rush to judgement about this. There is not, and will never be, proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Who is going to tell us that it wasn't depression, brought on by a deteriorating personal life? Financial difficulties? Personal demons?

I believe too much weight was placed on the alleged intent of Dave Duerson, who seems to have claimed to have killed himself because of damage to his brain. What about his financial difficulties? His personal problems? The fact he was arrested for beating his wife? That he was asked to leave the ND BOTs? I understand that some of these other problems may have been brought on by previous football injuries, but there are plenty of people who've had concussions that are not suicidal.

Perhaps many of these players have an inability to cope with real life. Has anybody done a study on suicide rates? I'd be interested in seeing that before this rush to judgement.

[🏀]

There is a rush to judgement about this. There is not, and will never be, proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Who is going to tell us that it wasn't depression, brought on by a deteriorating personal life? Financial difficulties? Personal demons?

Dude. People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions. He shot himself in the stomach and let himself bleed to death so someone could take his brain to study it. He went through great physical pain killing himself to let people figure this problem out.

This isn't just football either...hockey players have been going through this just as much. Ask Chris Pronger how his life has been lately.

[GGGG]

The issue is CTE, or Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, which is caused by multiple hits to the head...even if they are "sub-concussive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

PRN, you are exactly right in that many people can go through years of the sport and not get any of the signs of CTE.  However, those who do develop it can essentially develop dementia if it is severe enough.  Dave Duerson had CTE.  While that doesn't necessarily make him suicidal, the issues that may have been caused by CTE (bad decisions because his brain wasn't working), could have lead to the depression that lead to the suicide.

Now we have no idea what was going on with Seau.  We have no idea if he had CTE.  It can only be fully diagnosed via brain biopsy.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Dude. People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions. He shot himself in the stomach and let himself bleed to death so someone could take his brain to study it. He went through great physical pain killing himself to let people figure this problem out.

This isn't just football either...hockey players have been going through this just as much. Ask Chris Pronger how his life has been lately.

And you know this about Dave Duerson how? Because you heard some bozo on sports radio say it yesterday?

You can say whatever you want, but shooting yourself is a final plea for attention. I am sorry for the loss for these families, but I believe Dave Duerson killed himself to save face. He was a dark, defensive and odd  individual even during his playing days. I think we'll find out Junior Seau was manic as hell, although ESPN will spin it into a discussion of concussions.

Concussions are a serious problem. But let's not let a couple of guys crashing after a) a business failure and b) the end of a 20 year career get in the way of a real answer and not the answer sought by alarmists.

[reinko]

And you know this about Dave Duerson how? Because you heard some bozo on sports radio say it yesterday?

You can say whatever you want, but shooting yourself is a final plea for attention. I am sorry for the loss for these families, but I believe Dave Duerson killed himself to save face. He was a dark, defensive and odd  individual even during his playing days. I think we'll find out Junior Seau was manic as hell, although ESPN will spin it into a discussion of concussions.

Concussions are a serious problem. But let's not let a couple of guys crashing after a) a business failure and b) the end of a 20 year career get in the way of a real answer and not the answer sought by alarmists.

Just to make this clear, you are arguing PTM and others b/c they allegedly have no facts in their own arguments, but you use the bolded part above as the crux of your own argument with statements like "I believe" and "I think".

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Just to make this clear, you are arguing PTM and others b/c they allegedly have no facts in their own arguments, but you use the bolded part above as the crux of your own argument with statements like "I believe" and "I think".

Exactly right. Thanks. "I believe" and "I think" denote opinion.

"People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions" is a statement of fact that the writer has no way of verifying.

Just to make that clear.

[JWags85]

I'm not saying his suicide was concussion related, but preserving his brain was clearly front of mind, no pun intended.  Most people don't choose to shoot themselves in the chest rather than the head, the success rate is quite a bit higher in the former.

[MarsupialMadness]

Dude had issues to begin with.

"Seau survived with minor injuries a 100-foot fall down a cliff in his SUV in October 2010; he said he had fallen asleep at the wheel. Hours earlier he was arrested for domestic violence after his girlfriend reported an incident to the police."

Normal people don't "fall asleep" at the wheel and drive their truck off a cliff.  But that doesn't mean that concussions and lifetime hard hits to the head didn't contribute to his irrational behavior.  It also doesn't mean that it did, either.  Right now all we can do is speculate about it.

The steriod thing is another story.  Do you think Chris Beniot's murder-suicide was a result of him doing steriods, or just a result of him being crazy?  We'll  never know.  I don't know if it was ever confirmed that Junior did steriods, he very well may not have, but it's a possibility that may have contributed to his suicide.

Calling his suicide a result of depression would also just be speculation.  I don't think we'll ever know.  But you can't condemn the NFL just because people are killing themselves 10 years down the road. 

[🏀]

Exactly right. Thanks. "I believe" and "I think" denote opinion.

"People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions" is a statement of fact that the writer has no way of verifying.

Just to make that clear.

Hence why I didn't use "I believe" or "I think".

If by some dufus on sports radio, you mean the following:

Dave Duerson's suicide note
Dave Duerson's son Tregg
Dave Duerson's ex-wife Alicia
Former representatives from Duerson Foods
Mike Ditka
Steve McMichael
Kevin Butler
Gary Fencik
Dan Hampton
Mike Singletary

Consider that verified, I'll provide links to their references if you really need it.

Duerson Foods was hardly a failure. Duerson himself was not a failure. So much talk about academics around here and Marquette being Notre Dame. Duerson graduated from ND with a BA in Economics. He was the NFL Man of the Year, stop painting him out to be a maniac.

Know what you're talking about and keep it to facts.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

First Google option:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/22/financial-problems-weighed-heavily-on-dave-duerson/

Even if you had read his suicide note...which you have not...wouldn't the same brain damage that caused him to commit suicide and destroy his own family be reason to not believe anything written in it? Is it possible a person would use this as a coward's way out? "I am killing myself, but it's not my fault, it's the NFL." Remember, Dave Duerson was the same guy arguing against extended benefits for older players! Further, when the results of his "brain scan" came out, was it surprising that the place they sent it to found damage? Of course not. That's the business they're in. It would have been 100x more surprising if they simply said, "nothing to see here." Newsflash for you...a scan of your brain would reveal irregularities. Almost everybody's would, especially if given to a place that is in the business of seeking irregularities and, more importantly GRANT MONEY! Give it to somebody without a horse in the race and see what they come up with when they compare Dave Duerson's brain to some normal schmoe who threw himself in front of a train.

[🏀]

First Google option:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/22/financial-problems-weighed-heavily-on-dave-duerson/

Even if you had read his suicide note...which you have not...wouldn't the same brain damage that caused him to commit suicide and destroy his own family be reason to not believe anything written in it? Is it possible a person would use this as a coward's way out? "I am killing myself, but it's not my fault, it's the NFL." Remember, Dave Duerson was the same guy arguing against extended benefits for older players! Further, when the results of his "brain scan" came out, was it surprising that the place they sent it to found damage? Of course not. That's the business they're in. It would have been 100x more surprising if they simply said, "nothing to see here." Newsflash for you...a scan of your brain would reveal irregularities. Almost everybody's would, especially if given to a place that is in the business of seeking irregularities and, more importantly GRANT MONEY! Give it to somebody without a horse in the race and see what they come up with when they compare Dave Duerson's brain to some normal schmoe who threw himself in front of a train.

No one has read his note other than the excerpts that Alicia allowed to be released regarding his difficulties. These parts have also been submitted as evidence against the NFL.

Other than that, there's a only opinion in your statement. Stick to the facts.

[reinko]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

[🏀]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

And hockey.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

And hockey.

nah, they're f*cked in the head before they reach high school.

[Jay Bee]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

Don't know, but I do know one of the first foul balls I caught was off the bat of Lloyd Moseby, who had gotten a piece of a Donnie Moore pitch.  http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-19/sports/sp-3894_1_donnie-moore

Maybe Moore played some football in HS.

Flanagan this past summer, too.   

[🏀]

Don't know, but I do know one of the first foul balls I caught was off the bat of Lloyd Moseby, who had gotten a piece of a Donnie Moore pitch.  http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-19/sports/sp-3894_1_donnie-moore

Maybe Moore played some football in HS.

Flanagan this past summer, too.   

Justin Morneau anyone?

[Lennys Tap]

It's natural for people to want answers after a suicide, and the most comfortable is the one that most exonerates the guy who pulled the trigger from responsibility. The more you can tie a bow around it and put it to rest, the better for the survivors. The truth is usually complicated, a perfect storm scenario. Maybe these head injuries were the only cause for Seau and Duerson, but I don't think so.

[MUBurrow]

It's natural for people to want answers after a suicide, and the most comfortable is the one that most exonerates the guy who pulled the trigger from responsibility. The more you can tie a bow around it and put it to rest, the better for the survivors. The truth is usually complicated, a perfect storm scenario. Maybe these head injuries were the only cause for Seau and Duerson, but I don't think so.

For me, the issue isn't whether they are the ONLY cause - its if they are A cause. If head injuries of the type that many to most NFL players endure are a cause of suicidal behavior, that needs to fundamentally change the way we look at the game. Even if it is a "perfect storm" that leads to "successful" suicide attempts, if an integral part of that storm is my paying to see gladiators fight in the arena on sunday, its very disconcerting. I'm not smart enough to know what that means for football writ large or my personal fandom as a microcosm of that, but its not good.