Junior Seau dead

[77ncaachamps]

Possible suicide. Gunshot to the chest.

Roid rage? Depression? Brain damage?

Sad...

[🏀]

The end of the NFL as we know it has started.

[flash]

Very sad, I always liked him as a player, he was one of the best

[Blackhat]

 eight guys from '94 Charger Super Bowl team already dead.

Chris Mims - Died from an enlarged heart (was 455 lbs at his death)
David Griggs - Died in a high-speed car crash
Rodney Culver - Died in a plane crash (the ValueJet crash in the Everglades)
Lewis Bush - Died of a heart attack
Chris Whitley - Died of a drug overdose
Shawn Lee - Died of a heart attack
Doug Miller - Died after being struck by lightning
Junior Seau-suicide

[77ncaachamps]

eight guys from '94 Charger Super Bowl team already dead.

Chris Mims - Died from an enlarged heart (was 455 lbs at his death)
David Griggs - Died in a high-speed car crash
Rodney Culver - Died in a plane crash (the ValueJet crash in the Everglades)
Lewis Bush - Died of a heart attack
Chris Whitley - Died of a drug overdose
Shawn Lee - Died of a heart attack
Doug Miller - Died after being struck by lightning
Junior Seau-suicide

He was a Bolt til the very end.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

I'm sure this has to do with concussions.

[reinko]

I'm sure this has to do with concussions.

Astute.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Astute.

There is a rush to judgement about this. There is not, and will never be, proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Who is going to tell us that it wasn't depression, brought on by a deteriorating personal life? Financial difficulties? Personal demons?

I believe too much weight was placed on the alleged intent of Dave Duerson, who seems to have claimed to have killed himself because of damage to his brain. What about his financial difficulties? His personal problems? The fact he was arrested for beating his wife? That he was asked to leave the ND BOTs? I understand that some of these other problems may have been brought on by previous football injuries, but there are plenty of people who've had concussions that are not suicidal.

Perhaps many of these players have an inability to cope with real life. Has anybody done a study on suicide rates? I'd be interested in seeing that before this rush to judgement.
 

[🏀]

There is a rush to judgement about this. There is not, and will never be, proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Who is going to tell us that it wasn't depression, brought on by a deteriorating personal life? Financial difficulties? Personal demons?

Dude. People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions. He shot himself in the stomach and let himself bleed to death so someone could take his brain to study it. He went through great physical pain killing himself to let people figure this problem out.

This isn't just football either...hockey players have been going through this just as much. Ask Chris Pronger how his life has been lately.

[GGGG]

The issue is CTE, or Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, which is caused by multiple hits to the head...even if they are "sub-concussive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

PRN, you are exactly right in that many people can go through years of the sport and not get any of the signs of CTE.  However, those who do develop it can essentially develop dementia if it is severe enough.  Dave Duerson had CTE.  While that doesn't necessarily make him suicidal, the issues that may have been caused by CTE (bad decisions because his brain wasn't working), could have lead to the depression that lead to the suicide.

Now we have no idea what was going on with Seau.  We have no idea if he had CTE.  It can only be fully diagnosed via brain biopsy.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Dude. People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions. He shot himself in the stomach and let himself bleed to death so someone could take his brain to study it. He went through great physical pain killing himself to let people figure this problem out.

This isn't just football either...hockey players have been going through this just as much. Ask Chris Pronger how his life has been lately.

And you know this about Dave Duerson how? Because you heard some bozo on sports radio say it yesterday?

You can say whatever you want, but shooting yourself is a final plea for attention. I am sorry for the loss for these families, but I believe Dave Duerson killed himself to save face. He was a dark, defensive and odd  individual even during his playing days. I think we'll find out Junior Seau was manic as hell, although ESPN will spin it into a discussion of concussions.

Concussions are a serious problem. But let's not let a couple of guys crashing after a) a business failure and b) the end of a 20 year career get in the way of a real answer and not the answer sought by alarmists.

[reinko]

And you know this about Dave Duerson how? Because you heard some bozo on sports radio say it yesterday?

You can say whatever you want, but shooting yourself is a final plea for attention. I am sorry for the loss for these families, but I believe Dave Duerson killed himself to save face. He was a dark, defensive and odd  individual even during his playing days. I think we'll find out Junior Seau was manic as hell, although ESPN will spin it into a discussion of concussions.

Concussions are a serious problem. But let's not let a couple of guys crashing after a) a business failure and b) the end of a 20 year career get in the way of a real answer and not the answer sought by alarmists.

Just to make this clear, you are arguing PTM and others b/c they allegedly have no facts in their own arguments, but you use the bolded part above as the crux of your own argument with statements like "I believe" and "I think".

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Just to make this clear, you are arguing PTM and others b/c they allegedly have no facts in their own arguments, but you use the bolded part above as the crux of your own argument with statements like "I believe" and "I think".

Exactly right. Thanks. "I believe" and "I think" denote opinion.

"People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions" is a statement of fact that the writer has no way of verifying.

Just to make that clear.

[JWags85]

I'm not saying his suicide was concussion related, but preserving his brain was clearly front of mind, no pun intended.  Most people don't choose to shoot themselves in the chest rather than the head, the success rate is quite a bit higher in the former.

[MarsupialMadness]

Dude had issues to begin with.

"Seau survived with minor injuries a 100-foot fall down a cliff in his SUV in October 2010; he said he had fallen asleep at the wheel. Hours earlier he was arrested for domestic violence after his girlfriend reported an incident to the police."

Normal people don't "fall asleep" at the wheel and drive their truck off a cliff.  But that doesn't mean that concussions and lifetime hard hits to the head didn't contribute to his irrational behavior.  It also doesn't mean that it did, either.  Right now all we can do is speculate about it.

The steriod thing is another story.  Do you think Chris Beniot's murder-suicide was a result of him doing steriods, or just a result of him being crazy?  We'll  never know.  I don't know if it was ever confirmed that Junior did steriods, he very well may not have, but it's a possibility that may have contributed to his suicide.

Calling his suicide a result of depression would also just be speculation.  I don't think we'll ever know.  But you can't condemn the NFL just because people are killing themselves 10 years down the road. 

[🏀]

Exactly right. Thanks. "I believe" and "I think" denote opinion.

"People like Dave Duerson would spend days in a dark room trying to fend off the pain from their concussions" is a statement of fact that the writer has no way of verifying.

Just to make that clear.

Hence why I didn't use "I believe" or "I think".

If by some dufus on sports radio, you mean the following:

Dave Duerson's suicide note
Dave Duerson's son Tregg
Dave Duerson's ex-wife Alicia
Former representatives from Duerson Foods
Mike Ditka
Steve McMichael
Kevin Butler
Gary Fencik
Dan Hampton
Mike Singletary

Consider that verified, I'll provide links to their references if you really need it.

Duerson Foods was hardly a failure. Duerson himself was not a failure. So much talk about academics around here and Marquette being Notre Dame. Duerson graduated from ND with a BA in Economics. He was the NFL Man of the Year, stop painting him out to be a maniac.

Know what you're talking about and keep it to facts.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

First Google option:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/22/financial-problems-weighed-heavily-on-dave-duerson/

Even if you had read his suicide note...which you have not...wouldn't the same brain damage that caused him to commit suicide and destroy his own family be reason to not believe anything written in it? Is it possible a person would use this as a coward's way out? "I am killing myself, but it's not my fault, it's the NFL." Remember, Dave Duerson was the same guy arguing against extended benefits for older players! Further, when the results of his "brain scan" came out, was it surprising that the place they sent it to found damage? Of course not. That's the business they're in. It would have been 100x more surprising if they simply said, "nothing to see here." Newsflash for you...a scan of your brain would reveal irregularities. Almost everybody's would, especially if given to a place that is in the business of seeking irregularities and, more importantly GRANT MONEY! Give it to somebody without a horse in the race and see what they come up with when they compare Dave Duerson's brain to some normal schmoe who threw himself in front of a train.

[🏀]

First Google option:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/22/financial-problems-weighed-heavily-on-dave-duerson/

Even if you had read his suicide note...which you have not...wouldn't the same brain damage that caused him to commit suicide and destroy his own family be reason to not believe anything written in it? Is it possible a person would use this as a coward's way out? "I am killing myself, but it's not my fault, it's the NFL." Remember, Dave Duerson was the same guy arguing against extended benefits for older players! Further, when the results of his "brain scan" came out, was it surprising that the place they sent it to found damage? Of course not. That's the business they're in. It would have been 100x more surprising if they simply said, "nothing to see here." Newsflash for you...a scan of your brain would reveal irregularities. Almost everybody's would, especially if given to a place that is in the business of seeking irregularities and, more importantly GRANT MONEY! Give it to somebody without a horse in the race and see what they come up with when they compare Dave Duerson's brain to some normal schmoe who threw himself in front of a train.

No one has read his note other than the excerpts that Alicia allowed to be released regarding his difficulties. These parts have also been submitted as evidence against the NFL.

Other than that, there's a only opinion in your statement. Stick to the facts.

[reinko]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

[🏀]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

And hockey.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

And hockey.

nah, they're f*cked in the head before they reach high school.

[Jay Bee]

How many ex baseball or basketball players are having these type issues?  Now how many NFL, boxing, and professional wrestlers are?

Don't know, but I do know one of the first foul balls I caught was off the bat of Lloyd Moseby, who had gotten a piece of a Donnie Moore pitch.  http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-19/sports/sp-3894_1_donnie-moore

Maybe Moore played some football in HS.

Flanagan this past summer, too.   

[🏀]

Don't know, but I do know one of the first foul balls I caught was off the bat of Lloyd Moseby, who had gotten a piece of a Donnie Moore pitch.  http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-19/sports/sp-3894_1_donnie-moore

Maybe Moore played some football in HS.

Flanagan this past summer, too.   

Justin Morneau anyone?

[Lennys Tap]

It's natural for people to want answers after a suicide, and the most comfortable is the one that most exonerates the guy who pulled the trigger from responsibility. The more you can tie a bow around it and put it to rest, the better for the survivors. The truth is usually complicated, a perfect storm scenario. Maybe these head injuries were the only cause for Seau and Duerson, but I don't think so.

[MUBurrow]

It's natural for people to want answers after a suicide, and the most comfortable is the one that most exonerates the guy who pulled the trigger from responsibility. The more you can tie a bow around it and put it to rest, the better for the survivors. The truth is usually complicated, a perfect storm scenario. Maybe these head injuries were the only cause for Seau and Duerson, but I don't think so.

For me, the issue isn't whether they are the ONLY cause - its if they are A cause. If head injuries of the type that many to most NFL players endure are a cause of suicidal behavior, that needs to fundamentally change the way we look at the game. Even if it is a "perfect storm" that leads to "successful" suicide attempts, if an integral part of that storm is my paying to see gladiators fight in the arena on sunday, its very disconcerting. I'm not smart enough to know what that means for football writ large or my personal fandom as a microcosm of that, but its not good.

[Spotcheck Billy]

so is this another reason to be thankful that Marquette doesn't have a football program?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The dismissal of possible brain injuries playing a part is naive and/or disingenuous.

That's like saying cancer killed somebody, not smoking 2 packs per day for 30 years. Or a heart attack killed a 500lb man, not being extremely obese for many years.

Brain injuries aren't causing these guys to pick up a gun... but it's part of the cocktail that is being created where these guys are having some serious issues later in life. Some guys do fine (some people smoke for 30 years), but football isn't good for you.

[Henry Sugar]

John Welbourn wrote something about this topic a few months ago.  John was an offensive lineman for 9+ years in the NFL with the Eagles and Chiefs.

http://talktomejohnnie.com/aggressive/ave-caesar-morituri-te-salutant

There's also a few links within that post, including to a New Yorker article on this topic.

[Lennys Tap]

The dismissal of possible brain injuries playing a part is naive and/or disingenuous.

That's like saying cancer killed somebody, not smoking 2 packs per day for 30 years. Or a heart attack killed a 500lb man, not being extremely obese for many years.

Brain injuries aren't causing these guys to pick up a gun... but it's part of the cocktail that is being created where these guys are having some serious issues later in life. Some guys do fine (some people smoke for 30 years), but football isn't good for you.

Common sense told people that smoking (cough, cough), excessive drinking or weighing 500 lbs wasn't good for you. Studies proved that all of them could be in and of themselves lethal. And if they result in severe depression due to ill health they can be said to be PART of a cocktail that led to suicide.
I think common sense also tells us that taking blows to the head for a living isn't good for you. Rarely in and of itself lethal, but it sure wouldn't surprise me if it's found, in some cases, to be part of a lethal cocktail that ended in suicide.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Common sense told people that smoking (cough, cough), excessive drinking or weighing 500 lbs wasn't good for you. Studies proved that all of them could be in and of themselves lethal. And if they result in severe depression due to ill health they can be said to be PART of a cocktail that led to suicide.
I think common sense also tells us that taking blows to the head for a living isn't good for you. Rarely in and of itself lethal, but it sure wouldn't surprise me if it's found, in some cases, to be part of a lethal cocktail that ended in suicide.

The only thing I'll add is that smoking wasn't always seen as bad, and neither were concussions until more recently.

When people first started hearing smoking was bad for you, nobody knew exactly how bad. Now it's pretty well known.

Now we are learning concussions (especially multiples) are really bad for you... how bad, we don't know yet.

Gotta wear helmets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgOUgrOHuFc

[RawdogDX]

There is a rush to judgement about this. There is not, and will never be,1 proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Who is going to tell us that it wasn't depression, brought on by a deteriorating personal life? Financial difficulties? Personal demons?

I believe too much weight was placed on the alleged intent of Dave Duerson, who seems to have claimed to have killed himself because of damage to his brain. What about his financial difficulties? His personal problems? The fact he was arrested for beating his wife? That he was asked to leave the ND BOTs? 2I understand that some of these other problems may have been brought on by previous football injuries, but there are plenty of people who've had concussions that are not suicidal.

Perhaps many of these players have an inability to cope with real life. Has anybody done a study on suicide rates? I'd be interested in seeing that before this rush to judgement.

1: Never will be?!?! How the hell do you know that?
2: Nice list of things that could be caused by brain damage....
3: Yes, nfl players have a suicide rate 6 times the national average.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Don't know, but I do know one of the first foul balls I caught was off the bat of Lloyd Moseby, who had gotten a piece of a Donnie Moore pitch.  http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-19/sports/sp-3894_1_donnie-moore

Maybe Moore played some football in HS.

Flanagan this past summer, too.  

Last season, there were 15 official concussions in MLB, including Chase Utley, Brian Roberts, David Freese, and Morneau.  Five other players are questionable, including Marlon Byrd getting beaned in Boston.  Between 2001-2010, MLB averaged 3.3/season, but with increased awareness, the numbers have gone up considerably. http://theconcussionblog.com/2011/10/03/mlb-concussion-wrap-up-2011/#more-4752

The number of MLB suicides is considerable, with 7 players (at least) since 2004, including Flanagan and Hidecki Irabu.  Strangely, there are no reports of a former MLB player committing suicide between 1990-2004.  I haven't heard--nor been able to quickly find--any connection between these victims and previous concussions.  http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/suicides_baseball.shtml

I don't really watch football, so I can't speak to its injuries and untimely deaths, but I do know MLB has received some praise for the way it has addressed head injuries. http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-30/sports/29994293_1_concussions-neuropsychological-football-players

[Jay Bee]

Wait, so a career in which you're colliding your head with other men for millions of dollars carries with it some significant health risks?  I'm shocked.

Shut up or ban it. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

1: Never will be?!?! How the hell do you know that?
2: Nice list of things that could be caused by brain damage....
3: Yes, nfl players have a suicide rate 6 times the national average.

1. The "cause" of suicide cannot be proven. If you think it can, I'm all ears. It just can't, unless you believe all people with brain damage commit suicide. They don't. Why did Dave Duerson commit suicide? It's an unanswerable question and I don't care what he put in his note.
2. You're asking people to believe that all proble,s experienced by former NFL players are the result of brain injuries. I don't think they are.
3. What is the suicide rate among cops? Are those related to brain injuries?

All I'm saying is that this rush to judgement on concussions and their cause/effect relationship to suicides has a "flavor of the day" feel to it.

[RawdogDX]

1. The "cause" of suicide cannot be proven. If you think it can, I'm all ears. It just can't, unless you believe all people with brain damage commit suicide. They don't. Why did Dave Duerson commit suicide? It's an unanswerable question and I don't care what he put in his note.
2. You're asking people to believe that all proble,s experienced by former NFL players are the result of brain injuries. I don't think they are.
3. What is the suicide rate among cops? Are those related to brain injuries?

All I'm saying is that this rush to judgement on concussions and their cause/effect relationship to suicides has a "flavor of the day" feel to it.

1. You said: "There is not, and will never be, proof that concussion syndrome leads to suicide." You are now changing that to be about a specific individual?  Something can 'Lead to' something without being proven for a given individual.  If you are this against statistics being used to show cause and effect and then applying it to an individual case then fine but be consistent. (ie 420 isn't a gateway drug since it's impossible to prove that someone wouldn't have done meth if they had never smoked herb)
2. No, I'm saying that listing serious problems and then claiming they are unrelated to brain injuries can't be proven.  Plenty of people have financial problems, they don't have suicide rates like the nfl.  If they have other problems(like what you listed) in far greater numbers than other jobs then you have a point but i haven't seen you provide a shred of research.
3.  Cops are twice the normal rate, not close to that of NFL players.  Do you not know how to use google? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

1. The "cause" of suicide cannot be proven. If you think it can, I'm all ears. It just can't, unless you believe all people with brain damage commit suicide. They don't. Why did Dave Duerson commit suicide? It's an unanswerable question and I don't care what he put in his note.

C'mon.

Using this logic nothing causes anything. If I get wasted and go crash my car, there is not "proof" that alcohol caused me to crash. Maybe I was putting in another REO Speedwagon tape and lost control of the vehicle. A lot of people drive fine when they are impaired. It's not like basic driving takes cat-like reflexes. Therefore, being drunk doesn't cause car accidents.

Concussions don't cause suicide, but pretending like its not part of what is going on is naive.

Repeatedly being smashed in the head has some long term negative effects that we don't fully understand, yet.

That's not a hard conclusion to come up with (unless you've repeatedly been smashed in the head).