If we must...

[ATWizJr]

What if the followed felt threatened, chose to stand his ground against the follower by turning and confronting the follower, who in turn felt threatened because his underlying assumptions were buttressed, and chose to shoot the followed?    

that's a lot of what ifs'.  Hey what if monkeys flew out of his butt, broke zimmerman's nose, knocked zimmerman down, grabbed zimmerman's gun and shot martin?  I mean, way if?  any hypothetical is only that, a hypothetical. why don't we all just wait for the facts before finding anyone guilty of anything?

[tower912]

Martin's girlfriend, the one he was talking to on the phone while walking home, said that he mentioned being followed.    It seems like a reasonable extrapolation.    Of course, a lot of this thread has been "what ifs?"     At the end of the day, we aren't any closer to an answer. 

[wyzgy]

This is what you said:

"i get it though; in their element, that is what is in and if they don't get with the "program" they get chastised for being "white"  or acting white. or being in a different gang...  like studying hard, working hard, getting good grades.  it ruins it for the rest of them. "

And you think *I* am the one that sees race in everything?  I want you to find one post where I brought up race.  Just one.

that was just one example b/c trayvon is/was black, but overall i am referring to anyone who dresses "stupidly"  you are trying very hard to paint me as a racist b/c i am one of the few who'll step out of "politically correct" boundries/traps ya'll set up.  as i've said more than a few times, i'm a character guy and i've just hired a minority to work with me.  

[ATWizJr]

Martin's girlfriend, the one he was talking to on the phone while walking home, said that he mentioned being followed.    It seems like a reasonable extrapolation.    Of course, a lot of this thread has been "what ifs?"     At the end of the day, we aren't any closer to an answer. 

then why speculate?

[reinko]

that was just one example b/c trayvon is/was black, but overall i am referring to anyone who dresses "stupidly"  you are trying very hard to paint me as a racist b/c i am one of the few who'll step out of "politically correct" boundries/traps ya'll set up.  as i've said more than a few times, i'm a character guy and i've just hired a minority to work with me.  

Well if that's the case, my bad.

[ATWizJr]

then why speculate?

I know.  It's because that's what we do!

[reinko]

  I know.  It's because that's what we do!

C'mon, you can't start quoting your own posts to try to win an argument.   

[tower912]

then why speculate?

Yeah, good call.   I am the first one in this thread to speculate. 

[StillAWarrior]

...but I do think that when the Police tell you to stop following someone, and that you still follow that person...

It is my understanding that this, like a whole lot of other things relating to this case, is in dispute.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Point is, you don't know about his level of training and you certainly don't know whether or not it was self defense.

I do not want private citizens taking firearms and following/stalking citizens (presumably unarmed) and then claiming self defense.

That's all I know.

[wyzgy]

Well if that's the case, my bad.

now that we've got that settled, thank you, but the coloreds did start all this ya know

[MUBurrow]

 Point is, that when following a person can become a dangerous situation to the follower if the followee has malicious intent.  Following, in and of itself, is not a crime and does not justify an attack.  And no one has said that anyone was chasing someone with a gun.  Chasing implies that zimmerman was running after martin waving a gun around.  these facts do not currently exist in evidence.

I think there are two issues here where we will have to agree to disagree. One is from a danger perspective, the other is semantic.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

It is my understanding that this, like a whole lot of other things relating to this case, is in dispute.

As in a 911 dispatcher is not a police officer.

[Hoopaloop]

Who are these people who you claim are upset?  The Martin family said they were not surprised at all by this development, and did not expect the grand jury to bring charges.   As for the 2nd half of your statement, shouldn't the highest ranked law enforcement official play some kind of role in case that has garnered the attention of tens of millions of people, as well as provide support for a local department that may not have the resources necessary to investigate it fully?

But hey, I imagine you would rather have an AG that would fire US Attorneys based off of perceived political leanings, not believe in the writ of habeas corpus, and eavesdrop on your cell phone conversations without a warrant.

The racial hustlers like Al Sharpton, J. Jackson, the New Black Panthers, and those that prey on this kind of stuff.  That is who is upset.  Just read their comments and watch their actions.

For the AG, I find that all AG's do the bidding of their political beliefs and that of their bosses (the President), whether they are conservative or liberal.  This is not an ideological point I was making as I believe both sides pull this kind of stuff.  What bothers me is that politics will intersect with this more than it should. Will Holder get involved with a white kid gunned down in the streets of D.C., Chicago, LA?  Why or why not?  It happens every day.  What about a Hispanic kid killed by African Americans?  Isn't he the AG for all people?  Bush's AG, Reagan's AG, no different.  I would love to have the AG actually answer to the judicial branch and not the executive branch.  In my ideal world that is what would happen. The AG is a political animal and should not be.

Not sure what you mean by the eavesdropping of phone conversations as both the current and past administration has allowed that to happen.  Now we have a ruling that the American gov't can kill American citizens at a moment's notice if they believe they are enemies of this country.  No trial, nothing.  That's only in the last 2 years.  That is chilling.   

US Can Kill US Citizens Without Trial says Eric Holder

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/05/us-targeted-killings-eric-holder_n_1320515.html

[StillAWarrior]

I should say it is "fairly clear" rather than definitely just "clear."  I wasn't there and don't know with 100% certainty what happened; however, if he had stopped following Martin at 2:45 in the call, why does he need to say "Aww crap...I don't know where this kid is" a minute after that?

Your question made me curious because I had never listened to Zimmerman's 911 call, so I listened to the call and read the transcript.  In my personal opinion (your mileage may vary), the answer to this question is very simple:  the dispatcher had just asked Zimmerman if he lived in the neighborhood and what his apartment number was.  Zimmerman responded, "It's a home.  It's 1950...oh crap...I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where the kid is."  In other words, he was preparing to give his address to the 911 dispatcher, but didn't want to do that because he did not want Martin to overhear his address if he was nearby.  I think the part that you left out (as indicated by your use of the ellipsis) was pretty important context that provided what seems to be a fairly reasonable explanation for the "I don't know where the kid is" comment.  

[StillAWarrior]

As in a 911 dispatcher is not a police officer.

Not sure exactly what you mean.

It's my understanding that he claims he stopped chasing Martin when the dispatcher told him to do so.  I think this is one of many facts that is disputed.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not going to speculate who did what but I do wonder if this case would even be a blip on the national news radar if the initial, knee-jerk, fact-lacking report would have been, "A hispanic man shot a black, trouble-making teenager after being attacked by him" as opposed to "A white man with a criminal record shot a black teenager for wearing a hoodie at night."

[swoopem]

I'm not going to speculate who did what but I do wonder if this case would even be a blip on the national news radar if the initial, knee-jerk, fact-lacking report would have been, "A hispanic man shot a black, trouble-making teenager after being attacked by him" as opposed to "A white man with a criminal record shot a black teenager for wearing a hoodie at night."

I completly agree, it kinda bothers me how much attention this is getting and how much the race card is being played when in fact it was two minorities involved.

Also there were 5 killings in Chicago this past Easter weekend with another 23 wounded from gun shot wounds. No one hears about that, but this stuff happens every day.

[Hoopaloop]

My only problem with this whole thing is the use of a firearm.

I don't think there is any way that I can justify Zimmerman shooting a 140 lb kid, no matter how everything went down.

None of us were there and we need to let the facts come out, the ones that aren't edited or manipulated by NBC and others.

One comment I would like to make is on the weight of the kid.  You and others continue to bring this up.  In the BBC this morning, they mentioned Zimmerman is 5'9", he's a little guy.  Martin is 6'3".   Zimmerman may weigh more, but if Martin has 6 inches on him he also has leverage.  It's the first time I have seen any report mentioning the height of those involved.  If you're a little guy at 5'9" and you have a 6'3" guy on top of you slamming your head against the pavement and breaking your nose, then I can see pulling a gun.

The problem as I see it is that he could have avoided the entire thing by not following him, but he chose not to do that.  His legal right.  If he was attacked and the guy was that much bigger, it does not surprise me that he would act in self defense, if this is how it went down.


From the BBC: "Sanford police briefly detained, but did not charge Zimmerman in the shooting. The 5'9", 28 year-old Zimmerman has claimed self-defense, saying Martin had attacked him and he feared for his well-being as the 6'3" Martin pounded his head on the ground after knocking him off his feet with a sucker punch."

[Hoopaloop]

Martin's attorney, Crump, coming hot with the rhetoric yesterday if Zimmerman isn't charged.  The rhetoric is quite dangerous.  He stated there would pandemonium if he was not charged.  Does he mean riots in the streets, anger, what?  Some are speculating he is trying to incite a riot, but I don't agree necessarily with that charge.  It is dangerous, however, to make a comment like that when you have groups like the New Black Panthers that have publicly stated they want blood.  Troubling rhetoric.  http://www.theblaze.com/stories/suited-booted-and-armed-unbelievable-audio-from-the-new-black-panthers/

Here is the comment

Crump (Martin family attorney) expressed confidence that Corey would eventually charge Zimmerman, but when queried by the BBC that Corey could indeed choose to not prosecute Zimmerman, Crump said,"She could, yeah she could. And I think if she did that (decided to not prosecute Zimmerman)it would be pandemonium. There would be outrage all over America and all over the world."

[Jay Bee]

I'm not going to speculate who did what but I do wonder if this case would even be a blip on the national news radar if the initial, knee-jerk, fact-lacking report would have been, "A hispanic man shot a black, trouble-making teenager after being attacked by him" as opposed to "A white man with a criminal record shot a black teenager for wearing a hoodie at night."

Exactly.  Racism is an every day issue in this country, but the focal point of the discussion shouldn't be one case in which facts are unknown and information is made up / misreported.  That doesn't help anyone. 

[tower912]

Agreed Jay Bee.   Racism is an ongoing struggle and this is just the latest foci in that struggle.     We could be discussing Tulsa.   We could be discussing the racist taunt on the hacked highway sign in Detroit.   We could be discussing any number of white-on-white/black-on-black/hispanic-on-hispanic/Korean-on-Korean crimes that occur on a daily basis.    We could be discussing any of the other innumerable ills in this country, from gas prices, to the deficit, to......    Somehow, this one has become a focal point.   

[🏀]

wzgry, Zimmerman has ditched town and lost his legal team... not looking good for your racial mountain top.

[GGGG]

Interesting read.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/stand-your-ground-laws-contd/

"When Zimmerman made the fateful decision to disregard the police dispatcher's statement to await the arrival of the police and not to follow his "suspect," he was acting outside and beyond the Stand Your Ground law. Other legal principles enter the picture and those principles run against Zimmerman. By following Martin, Zimmerman's actions set up the perilous confrontation. Consequently, he will likely be seen as an aggressor in the eyes of the law. Even if Martin threw the first punch, that punch will likely be considered the result of Zimmerman's provocation. Since Martin was unarmed, a gunshot in response to non-deadly force (fisticuffs) will probably be deemed beyond the bounds of normal self-defense. (The Florida legal system will have to consider all of the available evidence and ultimately determine Zimmerman's legal responsibility.)"

[Lennys Tap]

Interesting read.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/stand-your-ground-laws-contd/

"When Zimmerman made the fateful decision to disregard the police dispatcher's statement to await the arrival of the police and not to follow his "suspect," he was acting outside and beyond the Stand Your Ground law. Other legal principles enter the picture and those principles run against Zimmerman. By following Martin, Zimmerman's actions set up the perilous confrontation. Consequently, he will likely be seen as an aggressor in the eyes of the law. Even if Martin threw the first punch, that punch will likely be considered the result of Zimmerman's provocation. Since Martin was unarmed, a gunshot in response to non-deadly force (fisticuffs) will probably be deemed beyond the bounds of normal self-defense. (The Florida legal system will have to consider all of the available evidence and ultimately determine Zimmerman's legal responsibility.)"

Seems reasonable.