If we must...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Interesting read.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/stand-your-ground-laws-contd/

"When Zimmerman made the fateful decision to disregard the police dispatcher's statement to await the arrival of the police and not to follow his "suspect," he was acting outside and beyond the Stand Your Ground law. Other legal principles enter the picture and those principles run against Zimmerman. By following Martin, Zimmerman's actions set up the perilous confrontation. Consequently, he will likely be seen as an aggressor in the eyes of the law. Even if Martin threw the first punch, that punch will likely be considered the result of Zimmerman's provocation. Since Martin was unarmed, a gunshot in response to non-deadly force (fisticuffs) will probably be deemed beyond the bounds of normal self-defense. (The Florida legal system will have to consider all of the available evidence and ultimately determine Zimmerman's legal responsibility.)"

This seems correct to me, but obviously we'll have to see how this plays out.

[Hoopaloop]

On MSNBC's "Hardball," Dershowitz said of the affidavit: "It's irresponsible and unethical, and not including the material that favors the defendant, unless it's not true. But if it's true, as we now have learned from other information, that the grass stains are in back of Zimmerman's shirt, that there were bruises on his head, you must put that in an affidavit. The affidavit has to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Dershowitz also said that everything in the affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense. "A good judge will throw this out," Dershowitz said.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

On MSNBC's "Hardball," Dershowitz said of the affidavit: "It's irresponsible and unethical, and not including the material that favors the defendant, unless it's not true. But if it's true, as we now have learned from other information, that the grass stains are in back of Zimmerman's shirt, that there were bruises on his head, you must put that in an affidavit. The affidavit has to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Dershowitz also said that everything in the affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense. "A good judge will throw this out," Dershowitz said.

Yea, I saw this too. He might be right. I'm no lawyer.

Truthfully, I'm just glad he was charged so at least the facts can be discussed in a court of law instead of just conjecture in the media and a police interview.

If it was really self defense, then so be it... but I would like a jury or at least a judge to help decide that.

[MerrittsMustache]

On MSNBC's "Hardball," Dershowitz said of the affidavit: "It's irresponsible and unethical, and not including the material that favors the defendant, unless it's not true. But if it's true, as we now have learned from other information, that the grass stains are in back of Zimmerman's shirt, that there were bruises on his head, you must put that in an affidavit. The affidavit has to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Dershowitz also said that everything in the affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense. "A good judge will throw this out," Dershowitz said.

If the judge throws this case out, she better have her belongings packed and get a police escort to the airport to start her new life in an unknown location.

[Lennys Tap]

Yea, I saw this too. He might be right. I'm no lawyer.

Truthfully, I'm just glad he was charged so at least the facts can be discussed in a court of law instead of just conjecture in the media and a police interview.

If it was really self defense, then so be it... but I would like a jury or at least a judge to help decide that.

No comment on whether this was self defense or not since I have no idea, but...

Am I to understand that if you, or say, your son was involved in an altercation that resulted in a death you would prefer charges, jail and a trial to a finding of self defense or insufficient evidence for trial by the DA? Interesting.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No comment on whether this was self defense or not since I have no idea, but...

Am I to understand that if you, or say, your son was involved in an altercation that resulted in a death you would prefer charges, jail and a trial to a finding of self defense or insufficient evidence for trial by the DA? Interesting.

Wait, in your scenario, is my son the one who was shot, or the one who did the shooting?

[ATWizJr]

Wait, in your scenario, is my son the one who was shot, or the one who did the shooting?

pretty clear that your son is the shooter in the scenario.

[MerrittsMustache]

pretty clear that your son is the shooter in the scenario.

Where's Amo during all of this?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, certainly Zimmerman isn't happy that he is in jail when he claims it was self defense.

Unfortunately, that's how the law works. If you are charged with a major felony, you are going to spend some time in the slammer before/during your trial (depending upon bail, etc.).

My point was, I'm glad that the facts/findings are going to be laid out in public record for everybody to see. It ultimately might not provide Martin's family with the justice they are looking for, but at least the facts are going to be laid out in front of our eyes.

How we all interpret those facts will certainly differ.

[Lennys Tap]

My point was, I'm glad that the facts/findings are going to be laid out in public record for everybody to see. It ultimately might not provide Martin's family with the justice they are looking for, but at least the facts are going to be laid out in front of our eyes.

And my point is if the facts warrant a charge of second degree murder I'm with you on arrest, incarceration and trial. If the facts indicate otherwise and the DA is caving to a lynch moblike hysteria, not so much. As to the justice the Martin family is looking for, I believe Trayvon's Mom is on record calling this an accident.

[Hoopaloop]

If the judge throws this case out, she better have her belongings packed and get a police escort to the airport to start her new life in an unknown location.

You are probably right, but that also would a terrible reaction.  We have a country of laws and the courts are there for a reason.  We can't riot every time we don't like a ruling.

[Bocephys]

You are probably right, but that also would a terrible reaction.  We have a country of laws and the courts are there for a reason.  We can't riot every time we don't like a ruling.

But people will.  It seems like more and more people don't care that change is actually enacted, but simply that they were "heard" for a brief moment in time.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And my point is if the facts warrant a charge of second degree murder I'm with you on arrest, incarceration and trial. If the facts indicate otherwise and the DA is caving to a lynch moblike hysteria, not so much. As to the justice the Martin family is looking for, I believe Trayvon's Mom is on record calling this an accident.

I think Trayvon's mom later changed her phrasing and claimed it wasn't an accident. Either way, you know the parents are not happy with a police report written up that basically says "Self defense. Case closed."

I don't want BS charges against Zimmerman, but I'm glad a DA/judge/jury are looking at it rather than just the police department.

If he's not guilty, it'll get proven and he can go go home.

[MUBurrow]

If the judge throws this case out, she better have her belongings packed and get a police escort to the airport to start her new life in an unknown location.

You are probably right, but that also would a terrible reaction.  We have a country of laws and the courts are there for a reason.  We can't riot every time we don't like a ruling.

This is why its entirely counterproductive to have judges elected, rather than appointed. But thats a separate soapbox.

[Lennys Tap]

I think Trayvon's mom later changed her phrasing and claimed it wasn't an accident. Either way, you know the parents are not happy with a police report written up that basically says "Self defense. Case closed."

I don't want BS charges against Zimmerman, but I'm glad a DA/judge/jury are looking at it rather than just the police department.

If he's not guilty, it'll get proven and he can go go home.

Sorry to nitpick, but no way this was going away with a police report. The DA makes the call, and my point was that, given the circumstances (race, rallies, etc.) they were going to charge this guy even if evidence was exculpatory. Too much pressure, political and otherwise, not to.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sorry to nitpick, but no way this was going away with a police report. The DA makes the call, and my point was that, given the circumstances (race, rallies, etc.) they were going to charge this guy even if evidence was exculpatory. Too much pressure, political and otherwise, not to.

Fair enough.

For me, personally, I was curious as to why he wasn't initially charged. It might be self defense, but given that it's not a clear cut case, I'm glad it's going to court. Let's hash this thing out.

I'm not interested in the politics involved, I'm just interested in the facts. The news stations have certainly provided some, but it's probably muddied the water more than anything else.

[wadesworld]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-charged-2nd-degree-murder-trayvon-martin-143832017.html

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Pretty interesting.  If all of this is true, I'm not sure there is any chance at all Zimmerman can claim self defense.

Profiling Martin.  Chasing Martin when he ran.  Disregarding the dispatcher who told him not to follow Martin.  Zimmerman was the one who confronted Martin, not the other way around like some people have stated.  Martin was the one who was crying for help.

I have no idea how the legal process works, but this was an affidavit.  These are confirmed statements by oath.

[nyg]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-charged-2nd-degree-murder-trayvon-martin-143832017.html

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Pretty interesting.  If all of this is true, I'm not sure there is any chance at all Zimmerman can claim self defense.

Profiling Martin.  Chasing Martin when he ran.  Disregarding the dispatcher who told him not to follow Martin.  Zimmerman was the one who confronted Martin, not the other way around like some people have stated.  Martin was the one who was crying for help.

I have no idea how the legal process works, but this was an affidavit.  These are confirmed statements by oath.

Here's how it works with charging documents and the process:

Usually when a case like this is investigated, the Detective assigned the case will get the facts, then present the case to a States Attorney who will either authorize or decline issuing an arrest warrant.  If authorized, the Detective will write an affidavit supporting the probable cause, repeat probable cause, and then accompany the affidavit with an arrest warrant.  It is then reviewed by a Magistrate Judge for review and signing and yes, the Detective will be under oath.

In the Zimmerman case, it is apparent the probable cause was either not there, as determined by the police or further investigation was deemed appropriate when presented to the States Attorney.  Based upon the media aspect, the police were taken out of the equation and a Special Prosecutor was appointed.  Following her review it was determined enough probable cause was there to issue an arrest warrant.  Zimmerman was charged through the use of an "information", which is basically an arrest warrant, but the affidavit was probably written by a prosecutor, not a police officer since that is how it works.

Zimmerman was arrested based upon the "information" and was brought before a Magistrate Judge.  The charges as detailed in the "information" were read, plead not guilty and bond set.

Now, the state has a pre-determined time frame (not familiar what Florida law is), which could be like 14-20 days, for the Prosecutor to do one of two things:

1) Present the case to a Grand Jury for formal charges or
2) Conduct a Preliminary Hearing, which is an open court setting before the Judge in which the facts of the case are brought forth utilizing witnesses, etc.  Preliminary Hearings are usually never conducted, only on TV.

If indicted by the Grand Jury, the Preliminary Hearing is not required.

Once indicted, the subject will again appear before a District/County Judge, not a Magistrate Judge this time and the new charges will be read.   Another bond hearing based upon the new charges and a trial date will be set.

Hope this assists you in the process.

[ATWizJr]

Fair enough.

For me, personally, I was curious as to why he wasn't initially charged. It might be self defense, but given that it's not a clear cut case, I'm glad it's going to court. Let's hash this thing out.

I'm not interested in the politics involved, I'm just interested in the facts. The news stations have certainly provided some, but it's probably muddied the water more than anything else.

Really?  The NRA may disagree.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

  Really?  The NRA may disagree.

You and I have had this conversation already in this thread. We'll have to agree to disagree re: self defense.

In my personal opinion, the minute you put on a gun and start silently following somebody, it isn't an open and shut case of self defense.

Zimmerman might end of being not guilty if his story is accurate, but again, I'm glad there is going to be a court case to determine everything that happened.

[ATWizJr]

You and I have had this conversation already in this thread. We'll have to agree to disagree re: self defense.

In my personal opinion, the minute you put on a gun and start silently following somebody, it isn't an open and shut case of self defense.

Zimmerman might end of being not guilty if his story is accurate, but again, I'm glad there is going to be a court case to determine everything that happened.

Understood. But, then please don't say that you're not interested in the politics involved, because you clearly are/were.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

  Understood. But, then please don't say that you're not interested in the politics involved, because you clearly are/were.

Honestly, I'm not. I don't think I ever mentioned anything here that is even remotely political. Feel free to quote anyplace that I did.

Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss further.

[wyzgy]

wzgry, Zimmerman has ditched town and lost his legal team... not looking good for your racial mountain top.

what's a racial "mountain top"???  i'll have to ask my son who is majoring in psych and sociology?  but i'm pretty sure that isn't a term used very widely by those studies so i am going to have to axk you to 'splain that one to me while i go do a googler on it.  ya sure that is the correct spelling or are you leaving something out here.  i'm gonna need all the info i can garner here

[wyzgy]

If the judge throws this case out, she better have her belongings packed and get a police escort to the airport to start her new life in an unknown location.

if the judge throws this out, get ready for the nuclear version of rodney king riots.  i think florida will break off at the pan handle and sink.  picture rodney king riots, devil's night riots in detroit, greece riots, france unrest, occupier mayhem all wrapped in one big clusterfudge

[wyzgy]

And my point is if the facts warrant a charge of second degree murder I'm with you on arrest, incarceration and trial. If the facts indicate otherwise and the DA is caving to a lynch moblike hysteria, not so much. As to the justice the Martin family is looking for, I believe Trayvon's Mom is on record calling this an accident.

might be safer in there except for the big guys looking at your arse like it's a porkchop