If we must...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think you misjudge how quickly things can happen when one fear and adrenaline kick in. A good rule of thumb, if you don't want to be harmed stay out of harm's way. If you threaten and then attack someone you may not like the response.

Oh, also, I agree, and that's why cops get a ton of training. Private citizens probably aren't equipped/trained to handle this kind of stuff, which is why they shouldn't seek it out. When it lands in your living room, it's one thing. When you follow/track people in your neighborhood, the situations get complicated.

[reinko]

He was 6'2'' but only 140 pounds? Right.

Teenagers are never awkwardly growing into their bodies at this age.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Sure. Doesn't everyone know a 6'2'' 17 year old who is 3+ standard deviations away from the median weight for his age and height?

I guess asking for a source is too much to ask for, too?

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Sure. Doesn't everyone know a 6'2'' 17 year old who is 3+ standard deviations away from the median weight for his age and height?

I guess asking for a source is too much to ask for, too?

When I started college, at age 17, I was 6'1'' 150 lbs.....I am now 6'6'' 240.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sure. Doesn't everyone know a 6'2'' 17 year old who is 3+ standard deviations away from the median weight for his age and height?

I guess asking for a source is too much to ask for, too?

The family's lawyer (I believe) said 140lbs, so take that for what it is worth.

It could be closer to 150lbs, or maybe even 160lbs. If there is a court case, physical stature will definitely come in to play.

The use of deadly force instead of running away is still a problem for me... but that's just my opinion.
 

[Hoopaloop]

Agree 100%, which is why Zimmerman shouldn't have tracked the kid through the neighborhood. Call the authorities, observe from a distance.

He probably thought by the time the police got there, this guy would be gone.  In hindsight, would have been the right thing to do, but that isn't what he did. 

The prosecutor today said they are not bringing this to the grand jury.  Now the people that are upset about what they perceive to be vigilante justice will they persuade those pushing for more vigilante justice to back down?  The New Black Panthers, for example.  Rhetoric is high right now.  I hope they can tone this down.  I have zero doubts that Mr. Eric Holder will insert himself into all this.  Watch and see.

[nyg]

He probably thought by the time the police got there, this guy would be gone.  In hindsight, would have been the right thing to do, but that isn't what he did. 

The prosecutor today said they are not bringing this to the grand jury.  Now the people that are upset about what they perceive to be vigilante justice will they persuade those pushing for more vigilante justice to back down?  The New Black Panthers, for example.  Rhetoric is high right now.  I hope they can tone this down.  I have zero doubts that Mr. Eric Holder will insert himself into all this.  Watch and see.

Holder is already involved.  He ordered the FBI to conduct an investigation to ascertain if there were any Civil Rights/Hate Crimes violations.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

He probably thought by the time the police got there, this guy would be gone.  In hindsight, would have been the right thing to do, but that isn't what he did. 

But whose fault is that?

I don't know what is going to happen legally, but I don't like private citizens tracking/following other private citizens, especially while carrying a firearm, and then claiming self defense. Seems like too much gray area.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Sure. Doesn't everyone know a 6'2'' 17 year old who is 3+ standard deviations away from the median weight for his age and height?

I guess asking for a source is too much to ask for, too?

When I was a soph in HS I was 6' and 135lbs.  Entered college at 6'4" and 175lbs.  Now, I am 6'6" and 225lbs.  

Finding it difficult to understand why his reported height/weight is so hard for you to believe.

[Hoopaloop]

Holder is already involved.  He ordered the FBI to conduct an investigation to ascertain if there were any Civil Rights/Hate Crimes violations.   

Only the beginning.  This will be a political rallying cry.  Never let a crisis go to waste and they will play this for every mile they can get. Holder will get more involved.

[reinko]

He probably thought by the time the police got there, this guy would be gone.  In hindsight, would have been the right thing to do, but that isn't what he did. 

The prosecutor today said they are not bringing this to the grand jury.  Now the people that are upset about what they perceive to be vigilante justice will they persuade those pushing for more vigilante justice to back down?  The New Black Panthers, for example.  Rhetoric is high right now.  I hope they can tone this down.  I have zero doubts that Mr. Eric Holder will insert himself into all this.  Watch and see.

Who are these people who you claim are upset?  The Martin family said they were not surprised at all by this development, and did not expect the grand jury to bring charges.   As for the 2nd half of your statement, shouldn't the highest ranked law enforcement official play some kind of role in case that has garnered the attention of tens of millions of people, as well as provide support for a local department that may not have the resources necessary to investigate it fully?

But hey, I imagine you would rather have an AG that would fire US Attorneys based off of perceived political leanings, not believe in the writ of habeas corpus, and eavesdrop on your cell phone conversations without a warrant.

[nyg]

Only the beginning.  This will be a political rallying cry.  Never let a crisis go to waste and they will play this for every mile they can get. Holder will get more involved.

Bottom line now is that the prosecutorial case will now be decided by two people.

 Special Prosecutor Angela Corey will make her decision whether or not to file local charges, probably by Weds. If she does file charges, then Holder and DOJ will wait until the outcome of the local case to make a decision on the Civil Rights violations.  Usually if the subject in a local case is found not guilty, then DOJ will immediately files charges if deemed appropriate by the Attorney General.  Due to the extensive media coverage and political nature of this case, if Zimmerman is found guilty on the local charges, Zimmerman would be charged federally in addition.  Thats if the facts warrant it.  Holder will rely upon the reports written by the FBI, the United States Attorneys Office in Orlando and the Deputy AG, Civil Rights Division.

[wyzgy]

This hispanic guy Zimmerman is a knucklehead that called the cops every time the wind blew.  This time, out of the many many many times he called the cops, the reason he was calling was because of a black kid.  How many times did he call the cops because he saw something that most would think is a non-event and it involved a white guy?  A hispanic chick?  Whatever else?  If you don't know, I think you're making things up.

Is there evidence to suggest Zimmerman was a loser and wannabe cop that acted like a dipsh1t frequently with his constant calls to 911?  Yep.  I'm not sure there is evidence that this particular call had much if anything to do with race.  Do you believe if it was a hispanic or white kid that he would not have made the call and if so, what basis do you have for such a belief?

it must have been the "hoodie"?  ya know, i understand that some of this clothing thing-pants down, hoodie, cap on sideways, tats the usual " gangsta ghetto getup" is how they roll.  however, somone needs to tell them that this stuff screams other messages outside their element-sad to say, but it congers up fears.  i get it though; in their element, that is what is in and if they don't get with the "program" they get chastised for being "white"  or acting white. or being in a different gang...  like studying hard, working hard, getting good grades.  it ruins it for the rest of them.  if a girl goes out wearing a see-thru shirt sans underwear, and a thong hanging out does she deserve to be violated? absolutely not, but there are some knuckleheads that will try to make it consensual, whether she wants it or not, right.  unfortunately, image is one of the first chances ya have to make a first impression.  and that can be a tough one to turn around in the time you have out on the streets

[reinko]

it must have been the "hoodie"?  ya know, i understand that some of this clothing thing-pants down, hoodie, cap on sideways, tats the usual " gangsta ghetto getup" is how they roll.  however, somone needs to tell them that this stuff screams other messages outside their element-sad to say, but it congers up fears.  i get it though; in their element, that is what is in and if they don't get with the "program" they get chastised for being "white"  or acting white. or being in a different gang...  like studying hard, working hard, getting good grades.  it ruins it for the rest of them.  if a girl goes out wearing a see-thru shirt sans underwear, and a thong hanging out does she deserve to be violated? absolutely not, but there are some knuckleheads that will try to make it consensual, whether she wants it or not, right.  unfortunately, image is one of the first chances ya have to make a first impression.  and that can be a tough one to turn around in the time you have out on the streets

Just to be clear, you are talking about black people right?

[GGGG]

it must have been the "hoodie"?  ya know, i understand that some of this clothing thing-pants down, hoodie, cap on sideways, tats the usual " gangsta ghetto getup" is how they roll.  however, somone needs to tell them that this stuff screams other messages outside their element-sad to say, but it congers up fears.  i get it though; in their element, that is what is in and if they don't get with the "program" they get chastised for being "white"  or acting white. or being in a different gang...  like studying hard, working hard, getting good grades.  it ruins it for the rest of them.  if a girl goes out wearing a see-thru shirt sans underwear, and a thong hanging out does she deserve to be violated? absolutely not, but there are some knuckleheads that will try to make it consensual, whether she wants it or not, right.  unfortunately, image is one of the first chances ya have to make a first impression.  and that can be a tough one to turn around in the time you have out on the streets

For a dude who claims he isn't racist, you are trying real hard not to prove it.

[GGGG]

He probably thought by the time the police got there, this guy would be gone.  In hindsight, would have been the right thing to do, but that isn't what he did. 

The prosecutor today said they are not bringing this to the grand jury.  Now the people that are upset about what they perceive to be vigilante justice will they persuade those pushing for more vigilante justice to back down?  The New Black Panthers, for example.  Rhetoric is high right now.  I hope they can tone this down.  I have zero doubts that Mr. Eric Holder will insert himself into all this.  Watch and see.

The reason that it isn't going to a grand jury is because the DA will file the charges herself.  The only way it would go to a grand jury is if she didn't file charges and needed political cover.

[Jay Bee]

ZFB's "friend" tommy was 3'4" 82 lbs at age 8.  Now 12, tommy is 4"10 and 127 lbs.  People grow.

Who cares?  If a flippin midget sucker punches me and pins me down and starts wailing on me, I might pull the nina out and get biz.  word

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Nine burglaries in the same area in 15 months is pretty significant.  

Maybe they need better gates in said gated community.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Regardless of race, you have to ask yourself this:

Are you comfortable with private citizens carrying firearms, following other private citizens, and then claiming self defense when they use his/her firearm against an unarmed citizen?

I'm just not comfortable with that. By that logic, the entire state of Florida is a Charles Bronson movie waiting to happen.

Might be cool.

[ATWizJr]

Regardless of race, you have to ask yourself this:

Are you comfortable with private citizens carrying firearms, following other private citizens, and then claiming self defense when they use his/her firearm against an unarmed citizen?

I'm just not comfortable with that. By that logic, the entire state of Florida is a Charles Bronson movie waiting to happen.

Might be cool.

I am comfortable with all of the above when it is, indeed, self defense.  Aren't you?

[Jay Bee]

Regardless of race, you have to ask yourself this:

Are you comfortable with private citizens carrying firearms, following other private citizens, and then claiming self defense when they use his/her firearm against an unarmed citizen?

I'm just not comfortable with that. By that logic, the entire state of Florida is a Charles Bronson movie waiting to happen.

Might be cool.

Following others with guns is not good.

Claiming self defense when using a firearm against an unarmed citizen if you are physically attacked and in fear for your life might be just fine.  (i.e., if it's self defense, it's self defense.)

[GGGG]

Following others with guns is not good.

Claiming self defense when using a firearm against an unarmed citizen if you are physically attacked and in fear for your life might be just fine.  (i.e., if it's self defense, it's self defense.)

Yeah, I tend to think the burden to prove it was self-defense gets a little heavier when you were following someone with a gun after the police told you not to do so.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I guess it's hard for me to buy "self defense" when the person actively puts themselves in the situation.

- If you break into my house and corner me, and I shoot, it's self defense.

- If I see you on the street and think you might steal something, chase you down the street and shoot you when you fight back, I don't know about that. Couldn't I have just stayed in my house? I was not under attack. There was no immediate danger or threat until I sought it out.

This an armed adult (with no police training) trailing an unarmed 17 year old in a relatively open area, I just don't know that I like a "self defense" claim.

Zimmerman had a million different ways to defend himself before he shot the kid. Keeping his distance and staying in his car is #1.

Private citizens are not trained to track and apprehend potential criminals.

[MUBurrow]

I am comfortable with all of the above when it is, indeed, self defense.  Aren't you?

nope. Its not self defense when you start stalking people while armed with a firearm. If I'm being stalked by someone with a gun, I think I'm the one that has a right to self defense - not him.

If I know someone is following me w/ a weapon, I am comfortable with the idea that I should be able to shoot them in self defense, arent you? If so, you have a major philosophical issue here. You can't have a shootout where both people are legal and legitimate in their use of deadly force as self defense.

[StillAWarrior]

I guess it's hard for me to buy "self defense" when the person actively puts themselves in the situation.

- If you break into my house and corner me, and I shoot, it's self defense.

- If I see you on the street and think you might steal something, chase you down the street and shoot you when you fight back, I don't know about that. Couldn't I have just stayed in my house? I was not under attack. There was no immediate danger or threat until I sought it out.

This an armed adult (with no police training) trailing an unarmed 17 year old in a relatively open area, I just don't know that I like a "self defense" claim.

Zimmerman had a million different ways to defend himself before he shot the kid. Keeping his distance and staying in his car is #1.

Private citizens are not trained to track and apprehend potential criminals.

Maybe I've missed it, but has there ever been any report that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin?  Not being sarcastic -- honest question.


Moving on to a more general question (i.e., not intended to specifically relate to Zimmerman/Martin):  twice in this thread you've indicated that it would be OK for a private citizen to call the cops and try to keep an eye on someone:

Make a call to the cops? OK
Keep an eye on him and follow him? OK

Call the authorities, observe from a distance.

So, given the fact that you seem to think that it would be OK for a private citizen to call the cops and try to follow and keep an eye on a person, why do you think that a person doing exactly that should not be able to defend himself if the person he is trying to observe places him in fear for his life?

I'm asking a general question that, admittedly, is coming in a thread about a very specific situation.  I'll take no opinion on whether or not my question applies to the Zimmerman/Martin case.  I was just curious how you moved from saying that it was OK to call the cops and try to follow and keep an eye on someone, to later say that you're not comfortable if that person defends himself.