If we must...

[Jay Bee]

PS - Zimmerman is NOT traditional.

[Hoopaloop]

I see NBC got busted for lying in their reporting and editing Zimmerman's 911 call.  They were exposed by some bloggers and I guess Fox News.  NBC says it was a mistake, not intentional.  How do you eliminate several sentences and say it wasn't intentional. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/08/us-usa-florida-shooting-nbc-idUSBRE83609U20120408

You have to wonder how often this stuff has gone on for years and years in with the media but back in the days when no one could hold them to the fire, it didn't matter. Even today they get away with so much BS.  FOX does it, too, and they get called out on it.  Troubling.

[wadesworld]

all i'm saying wade is that i'm still gathering facts and listening to the evidence as it omes out.  i hope this gets to the courts so all this stuff can be sorted out.  you seem to use the word "clearly" a lot and then go on cataloging a lot of why/what if's.  there are very few "clearlys here.  you question the fact that trayvons movements were scrutinized so closely a lot.  well, this was some type of gsted community that had a pretty active block watch thing going on.  i'm going to go out on a limb here, but my thinking is that they've had a history of criminal activity in the area.  did trayvon fit the description of someone possibly involved in any of their previous illicit activity?  i will submit that zimmerman's actions did seem a little over zealous, but i've been fortunate not to have been robbed much, but did have a gun pointed at me by a car load of "african americans once.  do i think all cars full of african am.'s have guns and are going to point them at me?  nope.  but i am slightly more vigilant/observant now.  i also have certification for a conceal n carry and have experience with guns all my life.  i would not have done/pursued trayvon as mr. zimmerman did, but i' haven't lived his life.  our onceal n carry training tells us NOT to pursue, rather, escape potential danger at all costs.  my whole point here is the media is doing this whole situation a huge diservice to advance an agenda.  journalism has gone down the toilet like many other things in our society-happy thanksgiving-peace and love to all

Fair enough.  I don't mean to say that without a doubt Martin did not attack Zimmerman.  Like you said, I think there are a lot of details that nobody really knows right now.  I just wonder how you can offer that article and say that that is a much more factual timeline of the events than other articles, when they fail to account for what happened between the 2:45 mark on the call, when they claim he stopped pursuing Martin, and the end of the call 2 and a half minutes later.  I should say it is "fairly clear" rather than definitely just "clear."  I wasn't there and don't know with 100% certainty what happened; however, if he had stopped following Martin at 2:45 in the call, why does he need to say "Aww crap...I don't know where this kid is" a minute after that?

I understand your point.  Maybe there were break-ins and problems going on in their neighborhood so they set something up.  But I don't see, even if that is the case, based on what he says in his call to the police, what Martin did that was suspicious enough to warrant a call to the police.  He says that he's "real suspicious," that he "looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something," and that "something's wrong with him," yet the details he provides suggest absolutely no reason to believe this.  If he was walking around talking to himself, yelling, dancing and singing, or stumbling around all by himself then I could see how you could think someone was on drugs.  But he says that he was "just walking around looking about" and "just staring, looking at all the houses."

I have been robbed and had a gun pushed up against my back and was told that the guy would "Blow [my] unnatural carnal knowledgeing brains out" if I didn't do exactly what I told him.  What pissed me off was people asking me "Was he black?" after learning that I was the one working when we were robbed.  Just because there was a robbery does not mean the person was black.  Being black should not cause someone to call the police claiming that a person is suspicious.  The guy was white and had a ski mask on.  When I see someone with a ski mask on now does my heart start racing, even if wind chills are in the negatives and it makes no sense to worry?  You bet.  But even without the extreme temperatures, when I see a ski mask do I immediately think to call 911?  Am I immediately suspicious that someone is up to no good, on drugs, or has something wrong with them?  Hell no.  There was absolutely no reason to believe that Martin had anything wrong with him or was on drugs or was very suspicious, unless Zimmerman was leaving a ton of details out when he called the police.  There was no reason to follow Martin, and there was no reason to call the police.  Regardless of whether Zimmerman had been held up a million times, robbed a million times, or never been harmed in his life.  It was dumb and irrational.

[🏀]

PS - Zimmerman is NOT traditional.

Oh man, if wzgry finds out...

[Hoopaloop]

  Am I immediately suspicious that someone is up to no good, on drugs, or has something wrong with them?  Hell no.  There was absolutely no reason to believe that Martin had anything wrong with him or was on drugs or was very suspicious, unless Zimmerman was leaving a ton of details out when he called the police.  There was no reason to follow Martin, and there was no reason to call the police.  Regardless of whether Zimmerman had been held up a million times, robbed a million times, or never been harmed in his life.  It was dumb and irrational.

Disagree.  You are in the minority then.  When you hear of a terrorist attack, who do you think did it before anyone from the press tells us?  Muslims.  More often than not, that is the case.  It's human nature.

You said if he was robbed a million times he shouldn't have thought that way? Again, human nature.  Watch a person that has been bit by a dog and how they interact with dogs in the future (if they do at all).  It's human nature to be hesitant, suspicious, untrusting based on your life's experiences.  If this guy went through multiple robberies in his neighborhood he is going to be predisposed to thinking that might be happening again.  It's easy to sit behind a keyboard after the fact and say that he shouldn't have been, but you are not living in the moment that he was.

All we know is there is a dead young man (though the press portrays him as a 12 year old with the photo they keep running).  That is all we know.  There are recordings that are inaudible, there are some witnesses saying one thing and other witnesses saying something else.  We have news media outlets editing video and 911 calls to tell a version they want told. 

[MUBurrow]

I should've stayed away, but I just can't -

One of the reasons its so easy to condemn Zimmerman, based on what we actually know, is that the guy just couldn't mind his own damn business and now someone is dead. We know that Zimmerman was the first to begin any type of physical confrontation/odd interpersonal behavior when he started following Trayvon. At that point, doesnt Zimmerman become pretty unnatural carnal knowledgeing suspicious? The idea that following someone around isn't in itself an action potentially leading to self-defense seems like a problem here - ie if a physical scuffle did occur, I'm much more likely to defend Trayvon for fighting someone back that was following him around than I am to defend Zimmerman for either a) beginning to follow him or b) shooting him after the scuffle began. If you, as a nonsanctioned, self appointed arbiter of the law are going to begin to follow people around without provocation, getting your ass kicked comes with the territory.

[wadesworld]

I should've stayed away, but I just can't -

One of the reasons its so easy to condemn Zimmerman, based on what we actually know, is that the guy just couldn't mind his own damn business and now someone is dead. We know that Zimmerman was the first to begin any type of physical confrontation/odd interpersonal behavior when he started following Trayvon. At that point, doesnt Zimmerman become pretty fracking suspicious? The idea that following someone around isn't in itself an action potentially leading to self-defense seems like a problem here - ie if a physical scuffle did occur, I'm much more likely to defend Trayvon for fighting someone back that was following him around than I am to defend Zimmerman for either a) beginning to follow him or b) shooting him after the scuffle began. If you, as a nonsanctioned, self appointed arbiter of the law are going to begin to follow people around without provocation, getting your ass kicked comes with the territory.

Well put.  I agree with all of this.  There was no reason to follow Martin around, especially after the 911 dispatcher told him as much.

Disagree.  You are in the minority then.  When you hear of a terrorist attack, who do you think did it before anyone from the press tells us?  Muslims.  More often than not, that is the case.  It's human nature.

You said if he was robbed a million times he shouldn't have thought that way? Again, human nature.  Watch a person that has been bit by a dog and how they interact with dogs in the future (if they do at all).  It's human nature to be hesitant, suspicious, untrusting based on your life's experiences.  If this guy went through multiple robberies in his neighborhood he is going to be predisposed to thinking that might be happening again.  It's easy to sit behind a keyboard after the fact and say that he shouldn't have been, but you are not living in the moment that he was.

All we know is there is a dead young man (though the press portrays him as a 12 year old with the photo they keep running).  That is all we know.  There are recordings that are inaudible, there are some witnesses saying one thing and other witnesses saying something else.  We have news media outlets editing video and 911 calls to tell a version they want told.  

I get your point.  I think all people have preconceived notions about people based on a "group" they fall into (whether it is an age group like teenagers or racial group or gender group or whatever it may be).  I definitely get that and am no Saint, I have those too.  And I definitely overexaggerated by claiming even if he was robbed a million times he should not suspect foul play just because a guy has his hood up in the rain and is looking at houses with something in his hand.  After a million times, I am sure I would become paranoid to the point that everything was suspicious.  Having said that, I still have absolutely no idea (assuming that the linked article provides the entire 911 call, as it claims to) where he gets the idea that the kid is suspicious.  Before following him, he tells the dispatcher that he is African American.  I get that some people become suspicious based on just that, but to the point that they call the police?  No.  He told the police he had a hood up.  It was raining out.  When it's raining out and I have a hoody on I put my hood up.  That's a pretty natural thing to do.  No reason for suspicion.  He tells the 911 dispatcher that he has something in his hand.  Unless he thought it was a gun or knife or grenade or bat or club or whip or bomb or something that could cause harm to someone, again there is absolutely nothing suspicious about that.  He claims something was wrong with him or that he was on drugs, but provides absolutely no detail as to what leads him to believe that.  It makes no sense whatsoever.  Based on the 911 call provided, I cannot find a single thing that would lead him to call the police, and then go on to follow him.

When I see someone with a ski mask on my heart starts racing not because I assume they are about to rob me or someone, but because it takes me back to being robbed.  It is not something that I feel the need to call 911 for. And I get your point about terrorist attacks.  I agree you would usually assume it is someone of Middle Eastern descent.  But the big difference there is it is after the fact.  If I see someone who looks Middle Eastern walking down the street, do I assume they are suspicious, a terrorist?  Hell no.  If Zimmerman had heard someone was just shot and then happened to see Martin walking right around where he heard about it, then maybe it seems a bit more suspicious.

[tower912]

On April 19, 1995, I immediately thought "angry white guy.   Government hater."

[forgetful]

I should've stayed away, but I just can't -

One of the reasons its so easy to condemn Zimmerman, based on what we actually know, is that the guy just couldn't mind his own damn business and now someone is dead. We know that Zimmerman was the first to begin any type of physical confrontation/odd interpersonal behavior when he started following Trayvon. At that point, doesnt Zimmerman become pretty fracking suspicious? The idea that following someone around isn't in itself an action potentially leading to self-defense seems like a problem here - ie if a physical scuffle did occur, I'm much more likely to defend Trayvon for fighting someone back that was following him around than I am to defend Zimmerman for either a) beginning to follow him or b) shooting him after the scuffle began. If you, as a nonsanctioned, self appointed arbiter of the law are going to begin to follow people around without provocation, getting your ass kicked comes with the territory.

This is my problem with everything.  Based on Zimerman's actions, Trayvon would have been the one with a self-defense argument.  Zimmerman looked like an aggressor by stalking him.

Even when the verbal argument ensued, Zimmerman could have ended it by just saying "Sorry for following you, we've had a lot of problems in the neighborhood lately and I haven't seen you around before.  Are you new to the neighborhood."

Also, Zimmerman has a hero complex.  It is well documented that he likes to insert himself into situations where he can act like an authority or legal figure.  Those people psychologically want to get into confrontations and take positions that can get them in trouble.  The fact that he chose to get a concealed carry license almost guaranteed (with his psychological disposition) that eventually he would draw it on someone.

[wyzgy]

Oh man, if wzgry finds out...

zimmerman is not traditional...what?  as the media 'splained to us, he is your typical whitehispanic.  that tells us all we need to know

thanks wade-i get a little more of where you're coming from now and i can empathize with your concerns as well as the others have helped fill in the blanks nicely, however, pt seems to be a little confused yet   

[Hoopaloop]

Having said that, I still have absolutely no idea (assuming that the linked article provides the entire 911 call, as it claims to) where he gets the idea that the kid is suspicious.  Before following him, he tells the dispatcher that he is African American.  I get that some people become suspicious based on just that, but to the point that they call the police?  No.  He told the police he had a hood up.  It was raining out.  When it's raining out and I have a hoody on I put my hood up.  That's a pretty natural thing to do.  No reason for suspicion.  He tells the 911 dispatcher that he has something in his hand.  Unless he thought it was a gun or knife or grenade or bat or club or whip or bomb or something that could cause harm to someone, again there is absolutely nothing suspicious about that.  He claims something was wrong with him or that he was on drugs, but provides absolutely no detail as to what leads him to believe that.  It makes no sense whatsoever.  Based on the 911 call provided, I cannot find a single thing that would lead him to call the police, and then go on to follow him.

You need to stay away from NBC News as you've been duped.

He got the idea the kid was suspicious because there has been numerous robberies in the neighborhood.  That is why I said earlier we are all a product of our surroundings.  If there are a bunch of robberies, then a number of people suddenly become suspicious if you are looking out for that kind of thing.  In the last 15 months, 8 robberies in neighborhood all committed by young African Americans according to Frank Taffe who lives on the same street.  On Feb 2nd, a 9th robbery was stopped by Zimmerman when he called police and an African American was arrested robbing the home of Frank Taffe.

On your next statement, he tells the dispatcher he is black ONLY after the dispatcher asks if he what race he is. This is why NBC news just fired their producer yesterday for editing the 911 call (I linked it earlier today) because NBC News would have you believe this guy just up and said "he's black".  That's not how it went nor did they provide any context to the 9 previous robberies in the neighborhood.  Context is important.

NBC News reported 911 call this way.  "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black."  That is not how it went.




Actual 911 call:  

Zimmerman:  “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

The dispatcher then asks: “OK, and this guy – is he white, black or Hispanic?”

Zimmerman:  "He looks black"

Huge difference.  

The media is a joke again in this example.  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-call-manipulated-nbc-309258


I don't disagree with many of you that he had hero complex or probably went overboard, but some of you sure don't have all the facts in this case or the background.  Probably because the news media in this country has done a horrific job of already trying this case and pronouncing him guilty, to the point of willfully manipulating 911 tapes and video footage.  Beyond disturbing and deplorable.

[Hoopaloop]

On April 19, 1995, I immediately thought "angry white guy.   Government hater."

On September 11th, I immediately thought Muslims. 



When the sexual assault allegations against Marquette were levied against athletes of an unknown Marquette team (remember they didn't tell us what team), did you think men's basketball or one of the other teams like men's golf, women's soccer, men's track or tennis, women's volleyball, women's track, women's hoops, etc?   I know what I thought and I suspect most in Milwaukee did as well. 

[wyzgy]

You need to stay away from NBC News as you've been duped.

He got the idea the kid was suspicious because there has been numerous robberies in the neighborhood.  That is why I said earlier we are all a product of our surroundings.  If there are a bunch of robberies, then a number of people suddenly become suspicious if you are looking out for that kind of thing.  In the last 15 months, 8 robberies in neighborhood all committed by young African Americans according to Frank Taffe who lives on the same street.  On Feb 2nd, a 9th robbery was stopped by Zimmerman when he called police and an African American was arrested robbing the home of Frank Taffe.

On your next statement, he tells the dispatcher he is black ONLY after the dispatcher asks if he what race he is. This is why NBC news just fired their producer yesterday for editing the 911 call (I linked it earlier today) because NBC News would have you believe this guy just up and said "he's black".  That's not how it went nor did they provide any context to the 9 previous robberies in the neighborhood.  Context is important.

NBC News reported 911 call this way.  "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black."  That is not how it went.




Actual 911 call:  

Zimmerman:  “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

The dispatcher then asks: “OK, and this guy – is he white, black or Hispanic?”

Zimmerman:  "He looks black"

Huge difference.  

The media is a joke again in this example.  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-call-manipulated-nbc-309258


I don't disagree with many of you that he had hero complex or probably went overboard, but some of you sure don't have all the facts in this case or the background.  Probably because the news media in this country has done a horrific job of already trying this case and pronouncing him guilty, to the point of willfully manipulating 911 tapes and video footage.  Beyond disturbing and deplorable.

bravo bravo!!  i didn't think i had to go to the lengths you did hoops as i thought we had posters who were better informed.  but i only watch fox news so that's where my credibility is shot(please-no pun intended) right off the bat(again no pun intended)  i guess ya have to watch MessNBC for all you're fact based news   and to get on the same wavelength as some on this board

[forgetful]

Careful on the burglaries perpetrated by black youth.  That is a postulation by the guy in the neighborhood watch who is friends with Zimmerman.  Of the 9 burglaries there were two where there were witnesses (and an arrest was made for those two).  Those were perpetrated by a black youth.  The other 13, no one knows a thing about and the person interviewed on CNN along with Zimmerman just concluded that they all had to be committed by black youth with no evidence to support it.

[wadesworld]

You need to stay away from NBC News as you've been duped.

He got the idea the kid was suspicious because there has been numerous robberies in the neighborhood.  That is why I said earlier we are all a product of our surroundings.  If there are a bunch of robberies, then a number of people suddenly become suspicious if you are looking out for that kind of thing.  In the last 15 months, 8 robberies in neighborhood all committed by young African Americans according to Frank Taffe who lives on the same street.  On Feb 2nd, a 9th robbery was stopped by Zimmerman when he called police and an African American was arrested robbing the home of Frank Taffe.

On your next statement, he tells the dispatcher he is black ONLY after the dispatcher asks if he what race he is. This is why NBC news just fired their producer yesterday for editing the 911 call (I linked it earlier today) because NBC News would have you believe this guy just up and said "he's black".  That's not how it went nor did they provide any context to the 9 previous robberies in the neighborhood.  Context is important.

NBC News reported 911 call this way.  "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black."  That is not how it went.




Actual 911 call:

Zimmerman:  “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

The dispatcher then asks: “OK, and this guy – is he white, black or Hispanic?”

Zimmerman:  "He looks black"

Huge difference.  

The media is a joke again in this example.  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-call-manipulated-nbc-309258


I don't disagree with many of you that he had hero complex or probably went overboard, but some of you sure don't have all the facts in this case or the background.  Probably because the news media in this country has done a horrific job of already trying this case and pronouncing him guilty, to the point of willfully manipulating 911 tapes and video footage.  Beyond disturbing and deplorable.

I did not know about the background and the history of recent burglaries in the neighborhood, but I did listen to the entire police call, including Zimmerman only stating his race after being asked by the 911 dispatcher.  Even now after being informed of the recent burglaries, a black youth walking around with a hood up in the rain (again, I put my hood up when it's raining and I have a hoody on, I think that's pretty natural if you don't have an umbrella) does not warrant a call to the police.  Are black youths no longer allowed in the gated in community because there has been a history of recent burglaries?  Police must be notified whenever a black youth enters the neighborhood?  All black youth are then suspicious?  That is racism at its finest and that is a complete joke.  Listen to the entire 911 call and tell me where Zimmerman makes a legitimate case that Martin was acting suspiciously, like something was wrong with him, or where he seemed to be on drugs.  Not once does he mention him yelling, stumbling, anything.  He mentions what he's wearing and that something's in his hands, that he's just walking, that he's looking at houses, that he has his hood up in the rain.  None of this would suggest that he was on drugs or that something was wrong with him.  There was no reason to call the cops, beyond him being black, which is no reason to call the cops but apparently Zimmerman thought it was.

Careful on the burglaries perpetrated by black youth.  That is a postulation by the guy in the neighborhood watch who is friends with Zimmerman.  Of the 9 burglaries there were two where there were witnesses (and an arrest was made for those two).  Those were perpetrated by a black youth.  The other 13, no one knows a thing about and the person interviewed on CNN along with Zimmerman just concluded that they all had to be committed by black youth with no evidence to support it.

Thank you for the further background.

[Jay Bee]

There was no reason to call the cops, beyond him being black, which is no reason to call the cops but apparently Zimmerman thought it was.

This hispanic guy Zimmerman is a knucklehead that called the cops every time the wind blew.  This time, out of the many many many times he called the cops, the reason he was calling was because of a black kid.  How many times did he call the cops because he saw something that most would think is a non-event and it involved a white guy?  A hispanic chick?  Whatever else?  If you don't know, I think you're making things up.

Is there evidence to suggest Zimmerman was a loser and wannabe cop that acted like a dipsh1t frequently with his constant calls to 911?  Yep.  I'm not sure there is evidence that this particular call had much if anything to do with race.  Do you believe if it was a hispanic or white kid that he would not have made the call and if so, what basis do you have for such a belief?

[Hoopaloop]

Careful on the burglaries perpetrated by black youth.  That is a postulation by the guy in the neighborhood watch who is friends with Zimmerman.  Of the 9 burglaries there were two where there were witnesses (and an arrest was made for those two).  Those were perpetrated by a black youth.  The other 13, no one knows a thing about and the person interviewed on CNN along with Zimmerman just concluded that they all had to be committed by black youth with no evidence to support it.

Nine burglaries in the same area in 15 months is pretty significant.  That's going to have the neighborhood watch on edge.  Four of the 9 confirmed young black males as the perpetrators, this according to the city of Sanford on their web site prior to this incident as part of their community reporting.  The other 5 they did not know who was involved as you state.  Of the 4 they do, 100% young black males.  Again, human nature takes over. 

This guy may be guilty of a lot of things but the police need the evidence to prove it.  What isn't in dispute is many burglaries in the same small area, of those that happened 100% where a burglar could be identified were young black males.  The caller stopped a burglary in process in February, a young black male and I'm sure he probably felt he could be hero again. 

The way the media has reported this has been spectacularly poor.  He may be guilty and if he is he will likely get his unless the evidence isn't there (not the first time guilty people have gotten off), but they've (the media) have taken every step possible to make sure he is portrayed in the worst light possible to the point of outright dishonesty and manipulation of videos, audio tapes, using photos from 8 years ago, etc.  It's been very poor and too many Americans are duped because they don't challenge the media and get all the facts.  We're force fed their crap and too many just nod and accept it.

[forgetful]

Nine burglaries in the same area in 15 months is pretty significant.  That's going to have the neighborhood watch on edge.  Four of the 9 confirmed young black males as the perpetrators, this according to the city of Sanford on their web site prior to this incident as part of their community reporting.  The other 5 they did not know who was involved as you state.  Of the 4 they do, 100% young black males.  Again, human nature takes over. 

This guy may be guilty of a lot of things but the police need the evidence to prove it.  What isn't in dispute is many burglaries in the same small area, of those that happened 100% where a burglar could be identified were young black males.  The caller stopped a burglary in process in February, a young black male and I'm sure he probably felt he could be hero again. 

The way the media has reported this has been spectacularly poor.  He may be guilty and if he is he will likely get his unless the evidence isn't there (not the first time guilty people have gotten off), but they've (the media) have taken every step possible to make sure he is portrayed in the worst light possible to the point of outright dishonesty and manipulation of videos, audio tapes, using photos from 8 years ago, etc.  It's been very poor and too many Americans are duped because they don't challenge the media and get all the facts.  We're force fed their crap and too many just nod and accept it.

My apologies, the first interviews I had heard said only 2 were confirmed.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My only problem with this whole thing is the use of a firearm.

I don't think there is any way that I can justify Zimmerman shooting a 140 lb kid, no matter how everything went down.

Make a call to the cops? OK
Keep an eye on him and follow him? OK
Maybe even a physical altercation... I can understand how it happens. Zimmerman is trying to keep an eye on his neighborhood, which isn't a bad thing.

I'm not against citizens carrying guns per se, but one of the dangers is having a citizen unjustifiably use it. I don't know how I can justify following an unarmed HS kid, and ultimately shooting him.

[ATWizJr]

My only problem with this whole thing is the use of a firearm.

I don't think there is any way that I can justify Zimmerman shooting a 140 lb kid, no matter how everything went down.

Make a call to the cops? OK
Keep an eye on him and follow him? OK
Maybe even a physical altercation... I can understand how it happens. Zimmerman is trying to keep an eye on his neighborhood, which isn't a bad thing.

I'm not against citizens carrying guns per se, but one of the dangers is having a citizen unjustifiably use it. I don't know how I can justify following an unarmed HS kid, and ultimately shooting him.

  Really? Here's a "hypothetical" set of circumstances for you.  A 140 lb. person has punched you, knocked you down, may have broken your nose and is on top of you smashing your head into the ground....and you cannot justify defending yourself by any means necessary in this set of circumstances? What has to happen to you before you would use a firearm to defend yourself, your family, your property? 

[reinko]

  Really? Here's a "hypothetical" set of circumstances for you.  A 140 lb. person has punched you, knocked you down, may have broken your nose and is on top of you smashing your head into the ground....and you cannot justify defending yourself by any means necessary in this set of circumstances? What has to happen to you before you would use a firearm to defend yourself, your family, your property? 

Maybe use my 50lb weight advantage to get the kid off of me.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

 Really? Here's a "hypothetical" set of circumstances for you.  A 140 lb. person has punched you, knocked you down, may have broken your nose and is on top of you smashing your head into the ground....and you cannot justify defending yourself by any means necessary in this set of circumstances? What has to happen to you before you would use a firearm to defend yourself, your family, your property?  

If somebody busted into my house, and I couldn't escape, the use of deadly force is certainly acceptable.

If follow/track a kid (who is allegedly 100lbs smaller than me) in an open area, even if he gets the jump on me, I think it's safe to say I can escape by hitting/pushing back and then running.

George Zimmerman is a pretty big dude. I think it's reasonable to assume he could have pushed the kid off and escaped if Martin was attacking him.

[ATWizJr]

If somebody busted into my house, and I couldn't escape, the use of deadly force is certainly acceptable.

If follow/track a kid (who is allegedly 100lbs smaller than me) in an open area, even if he gets the jump on me, I think it's safe to say I can escape by hitting/pushing back and then running.

George Zimmerman is a pretty big dude. I think it's reasonable to assume he could have pushed the kid off and escaped if Martin was attacking him.

I think you misjudge how quickly things can happen when one fear and adrenaline kick in. A good rule of thumb, if you don't want to be harmed stay out of harm's way. If you threaten and then attack someone you may not like the response.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

My only problem with this whole thing is the use of a firearm.

I don't think there is any way that I can justify Zimmerman shooting a 140 lb kid, no matter how everything went down.

He was 6'2'' but only 140 pounds? Right.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think you misjudge how quickly things can happen when one fear and adrenaline kick in. A good rule of thumb, if you don't want to be harmed stay out of harm's way. If you threaten and then attack someone you may not like the response.

Agree 100%, which is why Zimmerman shouldn't have tracked the kid through the neighborhood. Call the authorities, observe from a distance.