Follow up on Tribune's assault story

[Pakuni]

It still creeps me out that Buzz held a team meeting to circle the wagons before he allowed the players to be interviewed by DPS or anyone else.

Wait, wait, wait. From where are you coming up with this?
There has never been a suggestion that Buzz Williams or anyone else didn't allow the players to be interviewed by DPS or anyone else. To the contrary, DA Chisholm - in a statement that hardly was friendly toward MU - said there is no evidence the coaching staff tried to interfere with the investigation. Are you suggesting that Buzz prevented players from talking to DPS, but Chisholm didn't see that as interference?
It has been reported that Buzz met with the players before DPS did, but whether it was a "circle the wagons" meeting (as opposed to a "what the hell is going on?" meeting or a "I'm going to chew your a-- out" meeting) is pure speculation on your behalf.

Sultan and others have - fairly enough - ripped those here who are offering up unfounded speculation that portrays the accuser in a bad light. Perhaps we should do the same when it comes to unfounded speculation that portrays the players and coaches in a bad light, particularly when it runs counter to the known facts.
There's enough of an "ick" factor surrounding this whole mess without people inferring/creating facts that aren't in existence that make matters look even worse.

[StillAWarrior]

From a psychological standpoint, the Marquette players are our "friends." We know them. We cheer for them. We care about them. For most of us on here, Marquette was our "home" for 4 years. We're proud to say we graduated from there and are proud of the education we got there. When "outsiders," like Tribune journalists, show up and start bad mouthing are friends and our home, it's human nature to go on the defensive. If people had actual friends involved in a situation like this, they would probably defend their friends and discredit the accuser even without having all of the facts. On the other hand, if their friend was the accuser, they'd be more likely to defend her and stand by her...unless, of course, they don't believe her account.

I probably chose my words poorly.  I understand why the positions are different in this case.  I just wanted to point out that some people are holding MU to a very different standard than ND, and aside from the obvious bias in favor of our "friends," there's no way to justify the difference.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Really?  You don't have to be an attorney to know what libel is.

So you're not an attorney. Just making sure.

[Hards Alumni]

The MU Athletics department is the aggrieved party here, isn't it? 

If you are making the case that MU Athletics is the party accusing libel, then you'd have to prove that the statements made are defamatory... meaning that they are false.

So you're not an attorney. Just making sure.

And, no, I'm not.  I did attend law school though.  Any other snarky questions?

[Clam Crowder]

The MU Athletics department is the aggrieved party here, isn't it?  

I think that the school has taken enough of a public relations hit on this issue, but yet here we are nearly 6 months later reading the same negative press. Enough is enough, people know the issue they know how poorly it was handled, and they know that policies changed. It is time for the tribune to find a new story, because if it continues with no new events it doesn't take much of an imagination to believe that a lawsuit could be filed.

Blue Horseshoe the one who responded to your statement wasn't the one who posted about libel. I know what libel is, it's not a very difficult concept.

[Blue Horseshoe]

I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to speculate about any legal ramifications. However, to the posts that talk about MU athletes being our "friends." Plain and simple they aren't. They don't know me and I don't know them. I hate the term "student athlete" (different discussion). Do I hope they win? Yes. Do I hope they represent the University in a positive manner? Yes. Am I surprised that stuff like that happens on a frequent basis around the country? No.

[Clam Crowder]

Horseshoe here's my argument about them being student athletes...do they go to classes? yes. are they athletes? yes. STUDENT-Athletes. If you doubt that they go to class, or anything of that nature come to Marquette and check it out.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Now we're getting off topic. Hence the different discussion about student athletes and pay to play/benefits, etc.

[Clam Crowder]

Now we're getting off topic. Hence the different discussion about student athletes and pay to play/benefits, etc.

Then don't bring it up in the first place

[Blue Horseshoe]

Horseshoe here's my argument about them being student athletes...do they go to classes? yes. are they athletes? yes. STUDENT-Athletes. If you doubt that they go to class, or anything of that nature come to Marquette and check it out.

You did non attorney man. I should have been more specific. Excuse me, now you're getting off topic.

[Skatastrophy]

Wait, wait, wait. From where are you coming up with this?
There has never been a suggestion that Buzz Williams or anyone else didn't allow the players to be interviewed by DPS or anyone else. To the contrary, DA Chisholm - in a statement that hardly was friendly toward MU - said there is no evidence the coaching staff tried to interfere with the investigation. Are you suggesting that Buzz prevented players from talking to DPS, but Chisholm didn't see that as interference?
It has been reported that Buzz met with the players before DPS did, but whether it was a "circle the wagons" meeting (as opposed to a "what the hell is going on?" meeting or a "I'm going to chew your a-- out" meeting) is pure speculation on your behalf.

It doesn't matter what the meeting was about.  It's what the perception is of a meeting between coaches and players after a serious incident instead of going to the cops/dps.

I'm not mad, or blaming anyone... it just gives me the creeps and I hope that this whole thing never happens again.

[Benny B]

The biggest point that stood out to me was that her closest friends bailed on her. True friends would stand by someone who had been through a tramatic experience like she claims to have gone through. IMO, that would far outweigh concerns over "social status." My initial impression is that those closest to her think she's full of it. The fact that she remains at MU despite feeling "alone" and "isolated" also reeks of someone who craves attention.

Same here.  In fact, I'd say such is quite damning to the alleged victim's story, but of course, I don't know these friends, and we haven't heard from those friends that were implied to have cooperated.

In any event, can someone please explain why MU has Gerald Boyle on retainer?  I get the fact that he's an alum and all, but if you're trying to project an impression of innocence or contrition, you don't hire the go-to guy for Wisconsin's highest-profile serial killers and rapists.  (I'm sure Mr. Baizer tells himself every morning that he hasn't bit off more than he can chew, even though he truly has.)

MU would do its mission and the Jesuit community - not to mention the athletes involved - a favor by severing all ties with Mr. Boyle immediately... but that's just my opinion.

[Clam Crowder]

You did non attorney man. I should have been more specific. Excuse me, now you're getting off topic.

You are a bitter bitter man, but I am over it...

[Blue Horseshoe]

You are a bitter bitter man, but I am over it...

More off topic banter?

[Pakuni]

MU would do its mission and the Jesuit community - not to mention the athletes involved - a favor by severing all ties with Mr. Boyle immediately... but that's just my opinion.

Since when did retaining qualified, successful and experienced legal counsel somehow make a person less "innocent?"
The only thing it does is make one smart. Contrary to popular belief, in the real world of the criminal justice system police and prosecutors aren't always right, don't always have the facts on their side, don't always tell the truth and rarely fight fair. And from money to staffing to resources to public perception, the deck is nearly always stacked in their favor. If I'm forced to enter into that world as a potential defendant, I want the strongest and best possible advocate on my behalf, regardless of how some dope on the street may perceive him and her.

As for perception .... there's a word for the kind of person who would call into question one's guilt or innocence based on the quality or reputation of their defense attorney. That word is "moron." Obviously those people do exist, but who cares? I'm not overly concerned with the perception of the moron community.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It still creeps me out that Buzz held a team meeting to circle the wagons before he allowed the players to be interviewed by DPS or anyone else.

Why? If he hadn't held a team meeting, it would have been alarming. From his perspective his players were being wrongfully accused. Why wouldn't he gather them to get the story and give them some advice on what to say? These are players who have been trusted by their families to this coaching staff. If your son was accused of something like this, would you sit him down and get his story and walk him through EXACTLY what went down before turning him over to the police? Golly, I sure hope so. I have no problem with what Buzz did. Zero.

What I find peculiar are those that assume these victims are beyond reproach. They most certainly are not.

[mr.MUskie]

Can't one reasonably argue that it's unlikely that a rape victim's next moves at a party would be drinks, dancing and another trip to the bedroom with her tormentor's friends?  

+a bazillion

[Benny B]

As for perception .... there's a word for the kind of person who would call into question one's guilt or innocence based on the quality or reputation of their defense attorney. That word is "moron." Obviously those people do exist, but who cares? I'm not overly concerned with the perception of the moron community.

I agree with you 100%.  Unfortunately, America is full of morons, and occasionally some do slip through voir dire.  If you're truly innocent, the last thing you want on your jury is a moron.  Conversely, if you're guilty, you want as many morons on the jury as possible.  The problem I have is that Jerry Boyle has, incidentally, been embracing the moron community for years.

Also, to clarify... I'm not saying MU should cut Jerry loose to make the athletes appear more innocent; I'm simply stating my opinion that I don't think Jerry Boyle is a good representative of or for MU.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

I agree with you 100%.  Unfortunately, America is full of morons, and occasionally some do slip through voir dire.  If you're truly innocent, the last thing you want on your jury is a moron.  Conversely, if you're guilty, you want as many morons on the jury as possible.  The problem I have is that Jerry Boyle has, incidentally, been embracing the moron community for years.

Also, to clarify... I'm not saying MU should cut Jerry loose to make the athletes appear more innocent; I'm simply stating my opinion that I don't think Jerry Boyle is a good representative of or for MU.

Most members of juries are morons....on purpose.

[Lennys Tap]

 



Pathetic that you would jump to such conclusions knowing as little about the case as you do.  Really pathetic...  

And it wasn't that her story of rape didn't pass muster, it was that any criminal evidence of rape didn't exist by the time it was reported.  That doesn't mean that people, including MU officials, Public Safety and the MPD didn't believe her.  Just that it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And believe me, I am not saying that anyone raped her.  All I know is, I most certainly would not drag people through the mud on either side based on my limited knowledge of what went on.  People jumping to two-bit conclusions anonymously on a message board is about as sad as it gets.

Unless I'm missing something, her story definitely didn't pass muster with MU officials. The players were found to be guilty of "sexual harrassment" not sexual assault. Call me pathetic and two bit all you want, but to me her behavior after the alleged rape (by her own admission more drinking, dancing and another trip to a bedroom) is not how I would expect a rape victim to react and it causes me to doubt her veracity. I readily admit that I don't know what happened - but I've read her account and it doesn't add up for me.

[NersEllenson]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

End of story.

Woman had a previous sexual relationship with player, began sex consensually, changed mind mid-thrust, was angry athlete didn't call her...

I have NO idea why a girl would want to go back to a school/situation where people know who she is, still has to deal with seeing one of the people said to have sexually assaulted her, etc.  Wouldn't a fresh start be better?  If the trauma is so great, why voluntarily expose yourself to the place of your trauma?

[GGGG]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

End of story.

I was wondering when you were going to show up with your same, tired, two-bit theory.  You and Lennys make quite the team....solving crimes from your keyboard.

Honestly, I have never quite understood how people can be so quick to act like they KNOW what was going on when they have NO IDEA what actually went on. 

[GGGG]

I readily admit that I don't know what happened -

Yet that doesn't stop you from making assumptions about her actions and her story.  Wow...

[MUMac]

My main problem lies with the way that stories are written nowadays.  Obviously, the idea is to sell as many newspapers (people still buy them for some reason) as possible.  What is most likely to sell papers?  "Journalism" like this is what sells papers.  It gets people all riled up when they can identify with a poor helpless drunk girl (because a lot of people have daughters or know daughters who attend college), and her plight against the faceless university.

Words matter.  Using words like "attack" (invokes thoughts of violence), "outcast among some of her closest friends" (who drew88 speculates she could not possess, having only been at school some two months).  These guys were never going to get a fair shake in this article.

While I do not condone the horrifying behavior of the student athletes, I think that the behavior of the victim was also questionable.  I know it is extremely easy to look back at a situation and say that you were uncomfortable because you are now thinking clearly.  How many people get in a car and drive home when they are a little too drunk, and realize how stupid that decision was the next day?  What I am getting at is that the victim doesn't seem to accept any of the blame herself (or at least that is the way the Trib seems to report it).  She drank the "big girl shots".  She was at a private party (I know the reasons people go to private parties... to hook up... at least that is why I went).  She went into a room with three of the guys.  The blame should be shared by all who made the poor decisions... not just by the student athletes who are being demonized while the victim is being martyred.

To put it plainly, I am pleased that she went to police... I wish she'd gone earlier, in fact.  And I am very happy with the changes to the Marquette policies.  I just think that this article is so obviously one sided that it should be taken for what it is.  One sided.

I can't wait for the response to this... I feel like I just tossed a hunk of meat to a pack of starving wolverines.

Well stated.  I was trying to put my thought's into words on this topic.  Your post so eloquently en-captures my thought and position.

[NersEllenson]

I was wondering when you were going to show up with your same, tired, two-bit theory.  You and Lennys make quite the team....solving crimes from your keyboard.

Honestly, I have never quite understood how people can be so quick to act like they KNOW what was going on when they have NO IDEA what actually went on. 

Sultan - We know that the girl had a previous sexual relationship with the player, and began consensually.  We know alcohol was involved.  I don't understand why you take what you read in the Chicago Tribune/Journal Sentinel (girls story only) as Gospel.  Have we ever heard the player's account of what happened?  No - yet MU and the basketball program are getting put through the ringer in the press.  Pardon me if I want to defend the team and university a little bit.

On another note, you don't know any more than I do that what the girl alleges has any truth to it..yet you want to seemingly take her at her word....