Futbol Talk

[Golden Avalanche]

If Falcao is healthy,  he is absolutely still one if their best options. Unfortunately, he hasn't been since his ACL injury.

Hey, if we're dealing in fantasy then I might as well proclaim Dempsey the best young forward in America. Unfortunately, he's 34.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Who ya got? I say 2-1 US in extra time.

[GGGG]

Who ya got? I say 2-1 US in extra time.

No extra time in this tournament.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Can we talk about how silly the two yellow card suspension is? If it's 2 in one game or a straight red, sure suspend them but if theyre gonna do this cumulative crap at least have it reset after the group stage.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

How bout that prediction though? 

[injuryBug]

Can we talk about how silly the two yellow card suspension is? If it's 2 in one game or a straight red, sure suspend them but if theyre gonna do this cumulative crap at least have it reset after the group stage.

No kidding never understood that rule, but we do get 2 days extra rest

[mu03eng]

Can anyone explain why Jurgen was at least 3 minutes too late with every sub?

[brewcity77]

Can we talk about how silly the two yellow card suspension is? If it's 2 in one game or a straight red, sure suspend them but if theyre gonna do this cumulative crap at least have it reset after the group stage.

Agreed. In a bigger tournament you can reset after the first knockout (like the World Cup or I guess now Euros) but what the hell is the point of resetting after the quarters? So now there's no accumulation in the semi and the final? Do the rule-makers understand how the sport even works? If someone gets a yellow in the semi and the final, they won't be suspended because the tournament will be over! Stupid rule. Should have reset prior to last night.

Thoughts for last night...
.

• Ecuador couldn't handle tempo: When we played fast, we got both goals. Dempsey's was so well-worked, Wood driving in and drawing their best central defender (Mina was excellent) away from the middle of the pitch, then the two pass sequence to put it on Clint's head with him being marked by a fullback. Thank god Zardes was onside on the second, looked like Dempsey was on target anyway.
  
• Besler did well: Not spectacular, but a very tidy performance. I was worried about Orozco playing on the right and either offering no offense, or trying to play offense and getting lost at the other end. Also worried about Castillo on the left, whom I've never rated. Besler was solid in defense and at least got the ball forward a bit.
  
• I hate bunker ball: Pushing the tempo and pace got us a 2-0 lead. Going into a shell nearly gave it up in 20 minutes. Ecuador scored and had plenty of good chances to equalize. And freaking Beckerman again...he made a couple plays, but I just feel like he is where we go to stagnate.
  
• Brooks Man of the Match: He was a monster again. There was the near own-goal, but the sheer volume of clearances and being in the right place at the right time...this kid has grown up immensely from the spindly youth that was overwhelmed to score against Ghana two summers ago. Dempsey a very close second. Goal and an assist, despite being invisible for long stretches.

[brewcity77]

Now...thoughts going forward (I'm looking at you, Argentina).

The suspensions: Jermaine's red card was stupid, Bedoya's yellow card was stupid, and as much as I am growing to appreciate Bobby Wood's game, his temper needs to get under control because every time he thinks he's fouled it looks like he deserves a yellow for dissent. Getting Yedlin back will help, but we lose 2/3 of our midfield and our best attacking option going forward.

How to beat Argentina: Herb Brooks' speech in Miracle included this gem: "You don't defend them, you ATTACK them. You take their game and you shove it right back in their face!" He was talking about the 1980 Soviet hockey team, but it applies to Argentina as well. Watching Argentina, they are the type of team that scores more from the run of play than from counters. They like the build-up, working it around, probing the defense, then exploiting the weaknesses. I don't care how good you are, they are ultimately going to find a weakness. How have most teams played them? They try to put the emphasis on defense, holding out, and hoping to steal one on the counter. Ask Panama how well that worked for them.

What you have to do is attack. Using the Three Factors we can see that Argentina is best at not allowing shots but second worst (Haiti) at allowing quality shots. The reason their shot disparity is so great is because teams are afraid to attack them, yet when they do, Argentina allows shots on target. So how do you exploit that? Attack. Get a high volume of shots and count on Argentina's defense, which isn't expecting you to attack, to get overwhelmed.

Further, Argentina will be coming off two days' rest. They will be the ones with the tired legs, so if you push the tempo, if you attack them, they will be more likely to wear out sooner. This is a very good Argentina side, but let's not confuse them with 2009 Spain. They can be beat. Play physical and play fast. Expect that you need three goals to win and two goals to get to a shootout. No one on earth is going to get a 1-0 win against this team with a sneaky counter. It won't happen. Shove the game down their throats, attack the wings, get crosses in. Allow Yedlin and Johnson to get forward and do some damage.

Maybe it backfires and you lose by a heavy margin. So what? It's the #1 team in the world and you still get the third place game. Lose 3-0 or 5-1...well, that's what's expected. I'd rather attack and lose than bunker and lose, because if we bunker in, we will lose. Again, this isn't 2009 Spain, so the Bradley plan of allowing them to control the entire pitch outside our box won't work. Messi will break that plan down. Gotta go at them.

Who should play: The entire back line has been solid. Thanks Besler, time to go back to the expected back five of Guzan with Yedlin/Cameron/Brooks/Johnson in front of him. That is the easy part. My fear is that Jones will be replaced by Beckerman, when he should be replaced by Nagbe. You need to attack and you need pace. My grandmother has more pace than Kyle Beckerman and she died 20 years ago. The 4-4-2 worked well yesterday, allowing space for the backs to get forward, so let Bradley (who looked better after Jones went off) man the 6 position on his own as he was always supposed to do. Put Nagbe at the tip of a diamond midfield to provide to the forwards and wings. Zusi has looked good in relief roles, so he can be an even swap with Bedoya. I actually trust Zusi more right now.

The next question is who takes Wood's spot. My expectation is Wondolowski, which I don't like. He is probably the best hold-up player we have, but we need to go forward. That means Christian Pulisic. You brought him for a reason, so why not give him his first start against the #1 team in the world? The kid can handle playing for Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League, I think he can handle this. Set it up like this:

Guzan

Yedlin - - - - - Cameron - - - - - Brooks - - - - - Johnson

Bradley
Zardes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zusi
Nagbe

- - - Dempsey
Pulisic - - -

[mu03eng]

Now...thoughts going forward (I'm looking at you, Argentina).

The suspensions: Jermaine's red card was stupid, Bedoya's yellow card was stupid, and as much as I am growing to appreciate Bobby Wood's game, his temper needs to get under control because every time he thinks he's fouled it looks like he deserves a yellow for dissent. Getting Yedlin back will help, but we lose 2/3 of our midfield and our best attacking option going forward.

How to beat Argentina: Herb Brooks' speech in Miracle included this gem: "You don't defend them, you ATTACK them. You take their game and you shove it right back in their face!" He was talking about the 1980 Soviet hockey team, but it applies to Argentina as well. Watching Argentina, they are the type of team that scores more from the run of play than from counters. They like the build-up, working it around, probing the defense, then exploiting the weaknesses. I don't care how good you are, they are ultimately going to find a weakness. How have most teams played them? They try to put the emphasis on defense, holding out, and hoping to steal one on the counter. Ask Panama how well that worked for them.

What you have to do is attack. Using the Three Factors we can see that Argentina is best at not allowing shots but second worst (Haiti) at allowing quality shots. The reason their shot disparity is so great is because teams are afraid to attack them, yet when they do, Argentina allows shots on target. So how do you exploit that? Attack. Get a high volume of shots and count on Argentina's defense, which isn't expecting you to attack, to get overwhelmed.

Further, Argentina will be coming off two days' rest. They will be the ones with the tired legs, so if you push the tempo, if you attack them, they will be more likely to wear out sooner. This is a very good Argentina side, but let's not confuse them with 2009 Spain. They can be beat. Play physical and play fast. Expect that you need three goals to win and two goals to get to a shootout. No one on earth is going to get a 1-0 win against this team with a sneaky counter. It won't happen. Shove the game down their throats, attack the wings, get crosses in. Allow Yedlin and Johnson to get forward and do some damage.

Maybe it backfires and you lose by a heavy margin. So what? It's the #1 team in the world and you still get the third place game. Lose 3-0 or 5-1...well, that's what's expected. I'd rather attack and lose than bunker and lose, because if we bunker in, we will lose. Again, this isn't 2009 Spain, so the Bradley plan of allowing them to control the entire pitch outside our box won't work. Messi will break that plan down. Gotta go at them.

Who should play: The entire back line has been solid. Thanks Besler, time to go back to the expected back five of Guzan with Yedlin/Cameron/Brooks/Johnson in front of him. That is the easy part. My fear is that Jones will be replaced by Beckerman, when he should be replaced by Nagbe. You need to attack and you need pace. My grandmother has more pace than Kyle Beckerman and she died 20 years ago. The 4-4-2 worked well yesterday, allowing space for the backs to get forward, so let Bradley (who looked better after Jones went off) man the 6 position on his own as he was always supposed to do. Put Nagbe at the tip of a diamond midfield to provide to the forwards and wings. Zusi has looked good in relief roles, so he can be an even swap with Bedoya. I actually trust Zusi more right now.

The next question is who takes Wood's spot. My expectation is Wondolowski, which I don't like. He is probably the best hold-up player we have, but we need to go forward. That means Christian Pulisic. You brought him for a reason, so why not give him his first start against the #1 team in the world? The kid can handle playing for Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League, I think he can handle this. Set it up like this:

Guzan

Yedlin - - - - - Cameron - - - - - Brooks - - - - - Johnson

Bradley
Zardes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zusi
Nagbe

- - - Dempsey
Pulisic - - -

[mu03eng]

One other note, I think the Jones and Bedoya suspensions are potentially very good for the US IF Jurgen decides to be aggressive instead of playing it safe/steady.

[brewcity77]

One other note, I think the Jones and Bedoya suspensions are potentially very good for the US IF Jurgen decides to be aggressive instead of playing it safe/steady.

I had those exact same thoughts. If we put in two guys with an aggressive mindset, like Nagbe and Zusi, it could actually be better for us than having the regular starters in. However, if we plan on bunkering and countering, say by putting Beckerman in the middle and trying to find room for a more defensive player like Birnbaum or Kitchen while Bradley is pushed forward, I think it pretty much seals our fate.

[GWSwarrior]

No extra time in this tournament.

Yes there is extra time in this tournament, it just doesn't come into play until the Final match. just remember knowing is half the battle...

[GGGG]

Yes there is extra time in this tournament, it just doesn't come into play until the Final match. just remember knowing is half the battle...

Thank you.  I was specifically reading about yesterday's game and thought it applied to the entire tournament.

[GWSwarrior]

How bout that prediction though? 

spot on.  there was some very dubious calls. it was interesting, IMHO, the cards vs the continuation plays.  I always prefer a match to ref'd consistently from start to finish, that was not the case last night. but a good result nonetheless. a victory on Tuesday would be great but, against Messi...

more importantly is to keep some semblance of continuity through European preseason so everybody can comeback and we can take care of business on 9/2 and 9/6...

[Henry Sugar]

What you have to do is attack. Using the Three Factors we can see that Argentina is best at not allowing shots but second worst (Haiti) at allowing quality shots. The reason their shot disparity is so great is because teams are afraid to attack them, yet when they do, Argentina allows shots on target. So how do you exploit that? Attack. Get a high volume of shots and count on Argentina's defense, which isn't expecting you to attack, to get overwhelmed.

Nice...



Here are the Three Factors for last night, btw

[WarriorInNYC]

Now...thoughts going forward (I'm looking at you, Argentina).

The suspensions: Jermaine's red card was stupid, Bedoya's yellow card was stupid, and as much as I am growing to appreciate Bobby Wood's game, his temper needs to get under control because every time he thinks he's fouled it looks like he deserves a yellow for dissent. Getting Yedlin back will help, but we lose 2/3 of our midfield and our best attacking option going forward.

How to beat Argentina: Herb Brooks' speech in Miracle included this gem: "You don't defend them, you ATTACK them. You take their game and you shove it right back in their face!" He was talking about the 1980 Soviet hockey team, but it applies to Argentina as well. Watching Argentina, they are the type of team that scores more from the run of play than from counters. They like the build-up, working it around, probing the defense, then exploiting the weaknesses. I don't care how good you are, they are ultimately going to find a weakness. How have most teams played them? They try to put the emphasis on defense, holding out, and hoping to steal one on the counter. Ask Panama how well that worked for them.

What you have to do is attack. Using the Three Factors we can see that Argentina is best at not allowing shots but second worst (Haiti) at allowing quality shots. The reason their shot disparity is so great is because teams are afraid to attack them, yet when they do, Argentina allows shots on target. So how do you exploit that? Attack. Get a high volume of shots and count on Argentina's defense, which isn't expecting you to attack, to get overwhelmed.

Further, Argentina will be coming off two days' rest. They will be the ones with the tired legs, so if you push the tempo, if you attack them, they will be more likely to wear out sooner. This is a very good Argentina side, but let's not confuse them with 2009 Spain. They can be beat. Play physical and play fast. Expect that you need three goals to win and two goals to get to a shootout. No one on earth is going to get a 1-0 win against this team with a sneaky counter. It won't happen. Shove the game down their throats, attack the wings, get crosses in. Allow Yedlin and Johnson to get forward and do some damage.

Maybe it backfires and you lose by a heavy margin. So what? It's the #1 team in the world and you still get the third place game. Lose 3-0 or 5-1...well, that's what's expected. I'd rather attack and lose than bunker and lose, because if we bunker in, we will lose. Again, this isn't 2009 Spain, so the Bradley plan of allowing them to control the entire pitch outside our box won't work. Messi will break that plan down. Gotta go at them.

Who should play: The entire back line has been solid. Thanks Besler, time to go back to the expected back five of Guzan with Yedlin/Cameron/Brooks/Johnson in front of him. That is the easy part. My fear is that Jones will be replaced by Beckerman, when he should be replaced by Nagbe. You need to attack and you need pace. My grandmother has more pace than Kyle Beckerman and she died 20 years ago. The 4-4-2 worked well yesterday, allowing space for the backs to get forward, so let Bradley (who looked better after Jones went off) man the 6 position on his own as he was always supposed to do. Put Nagbe at the tip of a diamond midfield to provide to the forwards and wings. Zusi has looked good in relief roles, so he can be an even swap with Bedoya. I actually trust Zusi more right now.

The next question is who takes Wood's spot. My expectation is Wondolowski, which I don't like. He is probably the best hold-up player we have, but we need to go forward. That means Christian Pulisic. You brought him for a reason, so why not give him his first start against the #1 team in the world? The kid can handle playing for Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League, I think he can handle this. Set it up like this:

Guzan

Yedlin - - - - - Cameron - - - - - Brooks - - - - - Johnson

Bradley
Zardes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zusi
Nagbe

- - - Dempsey
Pulisic - - -

I don't mind the formation at all, and alot of the players where you have them, and I'm a huge Pulisic fan.  But you're asking a scrawny 17 year old to play target striker here, I really, really don't get that.

I haven't played around too much with switching out of the 4-3-3 (not that I think its a bad idea, just haven't given it too much thought yet), but here are 2 potential lineups if we stick to a 4-3-3

Guzan
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Besler
Nagbe-Beckerman-Bradley
Zardes-Dempsey-Johnson

Guzan
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Johnson
Nagbe-Beckerman-Bradley
Zardes-Dempsey-Pulisic

I'm not sold on Beckerman being the third midfielder in either of those, so maybe Zusi playing further up the field instead.  I also think Pulisic may be able to handle the midfield duties in one of those spots.  With Besler putting in a decent performance against Ecuador, I'm almost tempted to play Fabian further up the pitch closer to his more natural position.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what JK rolls out.

[brewcity77]

The way we play, no one is playing target striker. Wood hasn't when he was in. What I want is a forward player that can make runs and get behind the defense. I also want someone that can draw the center backs out. Dempsey and Wood have worked well together in that regard. With no target or hold up player on the roster, I'd rather take my chances with Pulisic emulating Wood than hoping Zardes can magically fix his runs or find a first touch.

[mu03eng]

The way we play, no one is playing target striker. Wood hasn't when he was in. What I want is a forward player that can make runs and get behind the defense. I also want someone that can draw the center backs out. Dempsey and Wood have worked well together in that regard. With no target or hold up player on the roster, I'd rather take my chances with Pulisic emulating Wood than hoping Zardes can magically fix his runs or find a first touch.

His goal last night was the first and only time he'll likely have a positive first touch

[jesmu84]

The only reason Besler worked on the outside is because of the work Bedoya put in:

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2016/06/17/three-things-we-learned-from-usa-2-1-ecuador-on-to-the-semis/

I don't trust Besler on an island on the outside. Zardes has been providing deep defensive cover most of the tourney, so if you play Besler, gotta put Zardes on his side. But I still don't like that either. I would say play FJ at mid in front of Besler, but FJ is notorious for not tracking back once a turnover occurs.

[mu03eng]

The only reason Besler worked on the outside is because of the work Bedoya put in:

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2016/06/17/three-things-we-learned-from-usa-2-1-ecuador-on-to-the-semis/

I don't trust Besler on an island on the outside. Zardes has been providing deep defensive cover most of the tourney, so if you play Besler, gotta put Zardes on his side. But I still don't like that either. I would say play FJ at mid in front of Besler, but FJ is notorious for not tracking back once a turnover occurs.

Yedlin is back so Besler will only be in if someone gets hurt.

[brewcity77]

I don't mind the formation at all, and alot of the players where you have them, and I'm a huge Pulisic fan.  But you're asking a scrawny 17 year old to play target striker here, I really, really don't get that.

To elaborate a bit on my formation...I would draw overlapping circles.

The first circle would be the defensive circle and would include the back four, Bradley, and the two flank midfielders. Those seven would overlap and be primarily in charge of defense, with Zardes and Zusi responsible for the fullback defensive positions when Johnson and Yedlin go forward and Bradley responsible to help out in the middle.

The second circle would be around the fullbacks and the four midfielders. That would be the support circle, and those six players would be responsible for getting the ball forward and into the box.

The last circle would be around the flank midfielders, Nagbe, and the forwards. That would be the attack circle and those five players would be responsible for creating chances. Within the circles, responsibilities would overlap and players could move in and out of each other's primary roles.

Not exactly total football, but maybe a bit more using our national team the way the Cubs do in baseball, where different guys can slot in and help out at various positions. I definitely don't see Pulisic as a hold-up or target striker, but as an overlapping piece think he could be the point of the attack.

[WarriorInNYC]

To elaborate a bit on my formation...I would draw overlapping circles.

The first circle would be the defensive circle and would include the back four, Bradley, and the two flank midfielders. Those seven would overlap and be primarily in charge of defense, with Zardes and Zusi responsible for the fullback defensive positions when Johnson and Yedlin go forward and Bradley responsible to help out in the middle.

The second circle would be around the fullbacks and the four midfielders. That would be the support circle, and those six players would be responsible for getting the ball forward and into the box.

The last circle would be around the flank midfielders, Nagbe, and the forwards. That would be the attack circle and those five players would be responsible for creating chances. Within the circles, responsibilities would overlap and players could move in and out of each other's primary roles.

Not exactly total football, but maybe a bit more using our national team the way the Cubs do in baseball, where different guys can slot in and help out at various positions. I definitely don't see Pulisic as a hold-up or target striker, but as an overlapping piece think he could be the point of the attack.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I see Pulisic as a true forward type.

Admittedly, I haven't seen a ton of his play.  A couple of Dortmund games, and then his appearances with the senior USMNT and thats it, but I think he needs guys in front of him to make runs so he can lay passes off to them.  I don't necessarily see him as a guy to make a run in behind and drag defenders.  That said, maybe he can do that and I just haven't had the chance to see it yet.

I like Pulisic a lot, but in a 4-4-2 diamond, I think he's a CAM or mayyybbbeeee a LM. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

My god, that penalty wasn't even close. Colombia got extremely lucky, Bacca and Cuadrado were just awful the entire game.

[77ncaachamps]

Got back from the Mexico-Chile match.

Green (and white and red) were EVERYWHERE in the stands but nowhere on the pitch.

Chile owned Mexico who appeared lazy, unmotivated, hesitant, gun shy, and possibly overconfident because it was a "home game" for them.

Chile was crisper and more intent with their passes; achieved most of their success on counterattacks; and swarmed the Mexican side on defense.

Got ugly quick as fans headed for the stands with the team down 3-0 with about 30 minutes left in the game.

Normally "El Tri" supporters would save their "puto" chants for the other team's goalie, but around 4-0, they were using it for their own players.

When it became 5-0, the beer showers rained down following their hurled cups, fights (both verbal and physical) broke out, and food and drinks were being thrown at the Chile players on the pitch. Two police/sheriff helicopters circled the stadium and adjoining parking lots overhead.

It was an embarrassment on the field and off for the Mexican side. Heading to the tunnel, their fans were throwing things at them - "almost deservedly so", considering many paid top dollar for their seats ($200-$400).

Looking back, what started as a very hopeful game turned out to be a disaster.
I didn't think Chile would demolish Mexico this way.

Looking forward to the Colombia - Chile match.
Chile has a great shot of repeating...