Futbol Talk

[withoutbias]

Disgraceful. The complete capitulation in the second half was pathetic. Until the last 5 minutes, the USA may as well have not taken the pitch in the second half.

Berhalter showed no ability to adjust to the pressure. Altidore had to come off, but Zardes continued to do nothing. How does Boyd, who was undoubtedly the most likely goal scorer on the bench, not get in?

A couple bright spots in the group stage, but otherwise a disappointing tournament with questionable selections and inadequate strategies.

I know it will seem harsh as Mexico was the favorite, but this is the judgment. Beat Mexico, win the Gold Cup, that's success. Anything less is failure. This was less. This was failure.

were not talking about the womens team. to call anything less than a title for a us mens national team a failure is just kidding yourself.

[jesmu84]

https://twitter.com/JerryHinnen/status/1148067731834642432?s=19

IMO, results in this tournament were not super important. You're talking about rebuilding a national team. Patience.

[brewcity77]

were not talking about the womens team. to call anything less than a title for a us mens national team a failure is just kidding yourself.

We're not talking about the men's World Cup. In the Gold Cup, that is absolutely the only bar. For us and Mexico, it's title or failure.

The USA Women's team has won 8 of the 9 Gold Cups they've played in. That is basically a forgone conclusion.

[jesmu84]

https://twitter.com/tutulismyname/status/1148076806072938497?s=19

[Golden Avalanche]

It's the conundrum of CONCACAF. Making a semifinal or final just doesn't have meaning. Mexico has won 4/6 Gold Cups and the Confederations playoff. We have plummeted in our Confederation in the last decade. There's no denying that and no denying that the only bar for success in a competition like this is a trophy.

Is the bolded limited strictly to the Gold Cup?

Because if it includes any event outside of the Gold Cup it's a wild exaggeration not based in reality.

[Hards Alumni]

Can Mike Bradley come off the team already?

[brewcity77]

Is the bolded limited strictly to the Gold Cup?

Because if it includes any event outside of the Gold Cup it's a wild exaggeration not based in reality.

We missed the last World Cup, behind the likes of Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras. We lost to Trinidad & Tobago with qualification on the line.

We had a great run from 2002-2014, but you could see at the 2014 World Cup we were starting to decline. Donovan was gone. Howard had to stand on his head to keep us in the Belgium match but we knew stars like him, Beasley, Dempsey, & Jones were on the way out. It was up to the next generation that has largely come up short.

No keeper has emerged to replace Howard. We don't have a defensive anchor we can rely on like Gooch or Demerit. Bradley never became the midfield rock we thought he'd be. Right now, we're thanking our stars for Pulisic while he is basically our only creator of quality.

Are we better than 2 years ago when we missed qualification? Maybe. But if so it's only because Pulisic is two years older. We're stagnating around the rest of the pitch with guys like Bradley, Altidore, & Zardes who can't hold on. We're pinning hopes on guys like Sargent, Adams, & McKinnie with a manager that has shown a preference for MLS players.

I hope this proves to be a new golden generation, but we've been promised that for the last 12 years and none of the new crops delivered. Hard to believe this one will be different.

[Its DJOver]

I'm curious Brew, are you upset just by the fact that we lost, or the way that we played?  I ask this because I thought that we played fine, and very well could have won.  If Pulisic buries that chance in the 5th minute, and then we bunker for the next 80+ and scrape out a 1-0 win would you be more happy? 

Steffen is the clear no. 1 in goal, and our defense (which admittedly was terrible in the build up games) conceded 2 goals the entire tournament without our two best and most experienced defenders (Mexico conceded 4).  We still need more options going forward, but if we played as well as we did last night, but had a healthy John Brooks, Deandre Yedlin, and Tyler Adams I think we would have won. 

Older players (Bradley, Ream, Gonzalez) need to be phased out immediately to give younger players more minutes, and there are absolutely still systematic problems within the USSF, but it's not all doom and gloom.  Take a step back from the ledge.

[brewcity77]

Basically everything from a management perspective. Players like Zardes, Ream, Bradley, and Gonzalez simply aren't international players and all got major minutes.

Tactically, yesterday was a disaster. In the first half, we repeatedly played the ball back to Steffen to maintain possession. That strategy let Mexico know they could press in the second half, which they did mercilessly, and we had no answer. Instead of playing long balls over their press, we continued playing short passes that were repeatedly intercepted and allowed Mexico to keep the pressure on.

When we needed a goal, we brought in Lovitz, a left back who gave nothing to the attack while Tyler Boyd, our most explosive offensive player this tournament not named Pulisic, sat on the bench. Berhalter continues, with rare exception (T&T, maybe Panama), to look out of his depth.

I also question the focus. If we're bringing old players like we did, it means the goal is to win now. But if we're ever going to truly win big, it will likely be in 2026 when we host. So then we should shepherd along players like Sargent, Novakovic, Weah, and Dest. So if the goal is win now, we didn't, and if the goal is develop for the future, we didn't. Just hard to take positives from this.

[Its DJOver]

I understand that you're very anti-MLS, and I would have loved if players like Brooks, and Adams would have been available, but since they were injured Berhalter didn't have a lot of options.  Robinson also did not look at all impressive in our loss to Jamaica in the build up, I would rather have had the significantly more experienced Ream at that point.

You have complained in the past that the US has not even attempted to build out of the back and they just play boot ball, so now when they try to build from the back you're taking exception again?

The last 10 minutes we played with three at the back, and moved Miazga to center forward.  Ream was our weakest defender before that move was made so giving him more ground to cover with less help was asking for trouble, I have no problem with that substitution.  Look less at who came in, and more at how we changed once hey did, throwing our 6'-4" CB up top and essentially playing two forwards is the right move there.

You make it seem like "winning now" and "playing for the future" are mutually exclusive.  It would be down right stupid for Berhalter to be planning 2026 when there's a good chance that he'll be gone by then.  Once again, I would have loved if some of the younger guys had gotten minutes, and someone screwed up the Sargent situation, but Weah played at the U20 World Cup this summer, and there's no way I'm giving a senior debut to an 18 year old that signed his first professional contract less than 12 months ago, or someone that can't even break into Championship side Reading's first team yet.  We don't even get to the finals if we just throw out the young guys that you wanted.  The kids will get there, but throw someone into the furnace too soon and you get another Adu.

Older players do need to get to get cycled out for younger ones, but I have absolutely no problem with a "win now" mentality for the first competitive games in almost two years.

[Pakuni]

This seems to be a reasonable take.

https://deadspin.com/the-usmnt-lost-the-gold-cup-final-and-thats-probably-o-1836187519

[Its DJOver]

This seems to be a reasonable take.

https://deadspin.com/the-usmnt-lost-the-gold-cup-final-and-thats-probably-o-1836187519

Very well reasoned take, with one caveat IMO.  I know that Adams is the long term successor to the defensive mid role that Bradley was attempting to play, but with him out, you could have put McKennie there instead.  He played all over the midfield and even on the back line for Shalke last year.  He's the closest thing to a utility man that we have, and has a very high work rate.  Putting him in that position would have left our back line less exposed IMO.

[mu03eng]

Very well reasoned take, with one caveat IMO.  I know that Adams is the long term successor to the defensive mid role that Bradley was attempting to play, but with him out, you could have put McKennie there instead.  He played all over the midfield and even on the back line for Shalke last year.  He's the closest thing to a utility man that we have, and has a very high work rate.  Putting him in that position would have left our back line less exposed IMO.

I think you have to account for all the voices with USSF that Gregg has to accommodate in the early days. He's not Herb Brooks, he's not going to tell USSF to stuff it and USSF is very slow to change and wants to minimize risk. In their minds its better to put known quantities out there than to make a sea change(that is so desperately needed) and risk falling flat on their face with poor performance.

IMO, I think the fan community would generally welcome taking a big swing in terms of go all in on the youth. If we played a bunch of youth and we had bad results in this cup but we showed promise I'd be fine with it. Every choice we make from now on should really only have the goal of making the round of 16 in 2022 and the semis in 2026. There should be no other metric.

[Its DJOver]

IMO, I think the fan community would generally welcome taking a big swing in terms of go all in on the youth. If we played a bunch of youth and we had bad results in this cup but we showed promise I'd be fine with it. Every choice we make from now on should really only have the goal of making the round of 16 in 2022 and the semis in 2026. There should be no other metric.

I don't disagree, but once again, in our first competitive games in almost two years, I'm more okay with throwing known quantities out there.  We have a low chance of beating Mexico with Bradley in the starting 11, but a very high chance of at least getting to the finals with him there.  Players like Antonee Robinson and Tim Weah at their best are better than Tim Ream, Paul Arriola etc, but the older players are much more consistent.  Now that we're moving on to CONCACAF Nations League, I would hope that the phasing out of older players happens at an increased rate. 

[TeamOh]

My question is:

Should the WNT play against the MNT to prove they deserve equal pay?

And if so, who wins?  In my mind, it's 3-2 women's team.  At least in the women's game they're actually trying to score for more than the final 5 minutes of the game.  The men could score like 30 times on the women, but they don't look to score in men's soccer so they'd just pass it back and forth in the middle 80 yards of the field and score a couple times by just being physically faster and stronger, while the women would actually create scoring opportunities throughout the game.

[mu03eng]

My question is:

Should the WNT play against the MNT to prove they deserve equal pay?

And if so, who wins?  In my mind, it's 3-2 women's team.  At least in the women's game they're actually trying to score for more than the final 5 minutes of the game.  The men could score like 30 times on the women, but they don't look to score in men's soccer so they'd just pass it back and forth in the middle 80 yards of the field and score a couple times by just being physically faster and stronger, while the women would actually create scoring opportunities throughout the game.

[Golden Avalanche]

We missed the last World Cup, behind the likes of Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras. We lost to Trinidad & Tobago with qualification on the line.

We had a great run from 2002-2014, but you could see at the 2014 World Cup we were starting to decline. Donovan was gone. Howard had to stand on his head to keep us in the Belgium match but we knew stars like him, Beasley, Dempsey, & Jones were on the way out. It was up to the next generation that has largely come up short.

No keeper has emerged to replace Howard. We don't have a defensive anchor we can rely on like Gooch or Demerit. Bradley never became the midfield rock we thought he'd be. Right now, we're thanking our stars for Pulisic while he is basically our only creator of quality.

Are we better than 2 years ago when we missed qualification? Maybe. But if so it's only because Pulisic is two years older. We're stagnating around the rest of the pitch with guys like Bradley, Altidore, & Zardes who can't hold on. We're pinning hopes on guys like Sargent, Adams, & McKinnie with a manager that has shown a preference for MLS players.

I hope this proves to be a new golden generation, but we've been promised that for the last 12 years and none of the new crops delivered. Hard to believe this one will be different.

Yikes.

[wadesworld]

My question is:

Should the WNT play against the MNT to prove they deserve equal pay?

And if so, who wins?  In my mind, it's 3-2 women's team.  At least in the women's game they're actually trying to score for more than the final 5 minutes of the game.  The men could score like 30 times on the women, but they don't look to score in men's soccer so they'd just pass it back and forth in the middle 80 yards of the field and score a couple times by just being physically faster and stronger, while the women would actually create scoring opportunities throughout the game.

That's too much scoring for a game involving a men's soccer team.

[Galway Eagle]

so is soldier field in mexico or US feels /sounds like a road game

No Mexico doesn't start till western and cermak

But seriously it's not terribly surprising the Mexico fans outnumbered the US fans, first generation and even some second generation Mexican Americans still root for Mexico in my experience. But that's true of a lot of cultures.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/PaulCarr/status/1148974856735772672

New Concacaf Qualifying for 2022.

The top six teams go right to the Hex.  Top three to the Finals.  The rest of the teams go through a group and knockout stage for the right to play the #4 Hex team for a spot in the inter-confederation playoffs.

This seems massively unfair to the lower ranked teams in Concacaf, but I know they wanted to have all the countries to have something to play for later on in the qualification process.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So, based on current rankings, the Hex would be Mexico, US, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Honduras and El Savador.  This will obviously change due to Gold Cup performance, but the top three (and maybe Jamaica) look like they are guaranteed with the next two or three fighting with the likes of Panama, Canada, Curacao and Trinidad for the last spots.

[Its DJOver]

I actually like the new format.  You know teams like Anguilla and Montserrat are never going to qualify, but they were eliminated from contention for the 2018 WC in March 2015 after playing 2 games.  Now they'll at least have more games before they're eliminated.

US and Mexico were never going to not qualify for the Hex anyways, now we don't have to waste time beating the likes of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines.

[jesmu84]

https://twitter.com/PaulCarr/status/1148974856735772672

New Concacaf Qualifying for 2022.

The top six teams go right to the Hex.  Top three to the Finals.  The rest of the teams go through a group and knockout stage for the right to play the #4 Hex team for a spot in the inter-confederation playoffs.

This seems massively unfair to the lower ranked teams in Concacaf, but I know they wanted to have all the countries to have something to play for later on in the qualification process.

From the perspective of the Hex candidates (top 6 FIFA rankings), this doesn't make much sense. If you finish 5th or 6th after the Hex, you're out.  But the winner of the 29 team non-hex group has a chance to get in?

Feels like they need one more step. Top 3 Hex finishers qualify. Bottom 3 Hex play round robin. Winner of that plays winner of non-hex teams for intercontinental playoff.

[Its DJOver]

From the perspective of the Hex candidates (top 6 FIFA rankings), this doesn't make much sense. If you finish 5th or 6th after the Hex, you're out.  But the winner of the 29 team non-hex group has a chance to get in?

Feels like they need one more step. Top 3 Hex finishers qualify. Bottom 3 Hex play round robin. Winner of that plays winner of non-hex teams for intercontinental playoff.

But the reformatting wasn't intended to give team finishing 5th and 6th another lifeline, it was designed to get the small countries to play more than 2 or 4 meaningful games every 4 years, which it does.  Either way, you can only use this format once, because something brand new will have to be conceived for 2026.

[wadesworld]

Honest question from a non fan.  How easy/hard does the USA men's team have in qualifying for the World Cup compared to other parts of the world?