Futbol Talk

[Cheeks]

It's the comparative structure. Title IX around since 1972, which gave the USA a 20 year headstart developing players. We literally had a generation that grew up playing the sport in 1991, and another generation behind them that had a headstart on everyone else.

When 1991 hit, for most countries it was the genesis of women's competitive soccer. They didn't have schools or clubs dedicated to training at nearly the level we did. And while we haven't won every time out, we've never finished worse than 3rd. That means we have 7 medals, the next closest nations are Germany and Sweden with 3 each. So the next two most prolific nations haven't accomplished as much combined as the USA.

The Olympics, the other major international competition, has been even more USA dominated. We've won 4/6 gold medals since the inaugural competition in 1996 & also have a silver. So in 13 total major women's tournaments, we've won 7, taken 2nd twice, and third 3 times.

Others are catching up. European clubs have added women's teams, Brazil has built from the grassroots, but we started with an edge that we have yet to cede. When you compare that to how the men's team was basically hatched from whole cloth in the 1980s, they were always behind the 8-ball while the women were always a few laps ahead of the field.

Same is true of women’s hoops, softball and a few others. 

[Warrior Code]

I appreciate the answers, gang

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Another reason soccer will never grow in the US, they refuse to put half the games on premium channels.

ESPN put every single match of Copa America, including the finals, on ESPN+

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Another reason soccer will never grow in the US, they refuse to put half the games on premium channels.

ESPN put every single match of Copa America, including the finals, on ESPN+

Eh. Fox is televising all of the Women’s World Cup and most of the Gold Cup. NBC of course has the premier league. And Fox shows the Bundesliga.

There is plenty of soccer available pretty much every weekend.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Eh. Fox is televising all of the Women’s World Cup and most of the Gold Cup. NBC of course has the premier league. And Fox shows the Bundesliga.

There is plenty of soccer available pretty much every weekend.

NBCs coverage has gotten worse though.

You used to be able to watch every game on the weekend but they went to the premium model as well with NBC Gold.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

NBCs coverage has gotten worse though.

You used to be able to watch every game on the weekend but they went to the premium model as well with NBC Gold.

They have a game in every time slot on NBC or NBC Sports. The ones on Gold used to be free online sure but my guess is 99% of their audience is watching the free games on television.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Nice of Argentina to just not show up, jeez.

Getting beat by Roger Martinez and Duvan Zapata. What a time to be alive.

[Henry Sugar]

By the way, my hobby website has stats for the Women's World Cup. The USWNT stats are disgustingly good.

https://www.lowedownstats.com/league/wwc/

It should have the Gold Cup stats up in a day or two.

[Its DJOver]

So the US opens up their Gold Cup with a game against Guyana tonight, and honestly, I don't remember the last time I was less excited for a competitive game.  Between the abysmal tune up games, and the Women tearing up France, it seems pretty "meh" to me right now.  I fully expect them to underachieve (anything less than a finals loss to Mexico is underachieving) and then spout the same old things that everyone has heard before. 

After the T+T debacle, there should have been a full reset top to bottom, and that just hasn't happened.  We're playing the same style, with the same crop of players, and the USSF as a whole seems largely unchanged. Berhalter is too Arena like.  Cordeiro is too Gulati like, and the fact that Michael Bradley is still making match-day squads should tell you everything you need to know.

[brewcity77]

I feel like this team will backdoor their way into the Gold Cup Final, then get blasted by Mexico and everyone will say "oh, it's all okay." Something like 2011 where we had the 2-0 lead & lost 4-2.

[Its DJOver]

I feel like this team will backdoor their way into the Gold Cup Final, then get blasted by Mexico and everyone will say "oh, it's all okay." Something like 2011 where we had the 2-0 lead & lost 4-2.

I don't think "conspiracy" is the right word, but it's also no coincidence that its impossible for us to meet Mexico before the finals.  I could see a very real scenario where we lose to Panama and finish second in the group.  Meet them again in the semi's and scrape out an ugly 1-0 win, and then get outclassed by Mexico in the final, even if the scoreline doesn't reflect it.  SSDD, wholesale changes have been needed and haven't arrived.

[JWags85]

So the US opens up their Gold Cup with a game against Guyana tonight, and honestly, I don't remember the last time I was less excited for a competitive game.  Between the abysmal tune up games, and the Women tearing up France, it seems pretty "meh" to me right now.  I fully expect them to underachieve (anything less than a finals loss to Mexico is underachieving) and then spout the same old things that everyone has heard before. 

After the T+T debacle, there should have been a full reset top to bottom, and that just hasn't happened.  We're playing the same style, with the same crop of players, and the USSF as a whole seems largely unchanged. Berhalter is too Arena like.  Cordeiro is too Gulati like, and the fact that Michael Bradley is still making match-day squads should tell you everything you need to know.

The US youth system is stocked with talent that so far surpasses what we've seen before.  And given the disaster of qualifying last go round, the complete focus should be on 2022 and seasoning the core of that potential squad.  So what does the US do?  Keeps playing Omar Gonzalez and Tim Ream, keep playing Michael Bradley, keep thinking Zardes will ever be more than an emergency option.

Then, if you want to just look at Gold Cup specific, beyond the Josh Sargent debacle, you bring up up 2 MLS journeymen vets in Lovitz and Long, instead of trying to see what you got and give valuable meaningful matches to Carter-Vickers and Robinson.  Back to the MLS visibility and comfort over everything else I see.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

And it's not as though the Gold Cup means much any longer.  At least with the Confederations Cup you had an incentive to play in an international tournament the year before the World Cup.  Now it's a middling tournament held every other year.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I always found the difference in ticket prices between the US and UK pretty interesting.

Today for example, I saw people complaining about £65 tickets for the Cricket World Cup. To me that is very inexpensive.

Brits are baffled when I tell them how much I’ve paid for regular season football or hockey tickets. Standard for a Premier league match is like $35.

[jesmu84]

Too many hands in the cookie jar when it comes to ussf, USA soccer, MLS, etc to make any real change.

Not to mention conflict of interest between domestic clubs (MLS) and the national team.

Does any top-tier soccer country have the same discussions about what clubs the player pool should come from? I'm guessing no, but maybe I'm wrong.

Just admit the MLS isn't the best and don't get all butthurt when we what players from other clubs

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Too many hands in the cookie jar when it comes to ussf, USA soccer, MLS, etc to make any real change.

Not to mention conflict of interest between domestic clubs (MLS) and the national team.

Does any top-tier soccer country have the same discussions about what clubs the player pool should come from? I'm guessing no, but maybe I'm wrong.

Just admit the MLS isn't the best and don't get all butthurt when we what players from other clubs

England used to have that issue/conspiracy theory but it has been relaxed in the previous few cycles. There is definitely still a bias towards the Big 5 in England, but with Jadon Sancho playing in Germany and Declan Rice still at West Ham it's opened up a bit more.

[JWags85]

Too many hands in the cookie jar when it comes to ussf, USA soccer, MLS, etc to make any real change.

Not to mention conflict of interest between domestic clubs (MLS) and the national team.

Does any top-tier soccer country have the same discussions about what clubs the player pool should come from? I'm guessing no, but maybe I'm wrong.

Just admit the MLS isn't the best and don't get all butthurt when we what players from other clubs

No, because most top countries DGAF about where their talent is going provided they are getting run and developing.  You may see pushes from England for players to remain in the EPL and the top clubs there, but thats different cause its a top 2 league.  Argentina isn't clamoring for guys to stay in the Superliga.  Mexico happily has their studs playing across the globe despite Liga MX being far superior to MLS.  Look at the Dutch, Eredivise is probably a good comp for MLS in relation to Europe (though the top 3 clubs in the league would womp on anyone in MLS), but outside of PSV, Feyenoord, and Ajax, they populate their team with talent from the rest of the top leagues in Europe, no favoritism for domestic players.  And as a matter of fact, the Dutch have prided themselves on shipping and selling the best of their domestic talent abroad for decades.

I feel like US Soccer actually gets offended by young talent leaving academies or the MLS for chances in Europe.  And its reflected in the player selection.  If Josh Sargent was plugging along in Atlanta, this crap with him never happens.  I enjoy watching the MLS, and I want it to succeed for the sake of soccer in this country.  But I also harbor significant resentment for it and its most vocal proponents given the negative affect on the USMNT.  Its no surprise that Michael Bradley went from a solid and constantly developing reliable midfielder to falling off a cliff in the 5 years since he came back.

[brewcity77]

I think Berhalter has some decent tactical is, but I just don't see the path forward. The Sargent cut was inexplicable. Build around him, McKinnie, Adams, Pulisic, & Miazga at the back. Make the youth the core by 2022, hope they develop enough to be competitive for more than the last 16 by 2026.

[Pakuni]

No, because most top countries DGAF about where their talent is going provided they are getting run and developing. 

Your overall point is well taken, and I'm not really defending the push for young American players to stay stateside, but this is a key phrase here. With some notable exceptions, young American players who've gone overseas find themselves glued to the bench or loaned to second-division clubs, where they don't develop.
I'm thinking of much hyped players like Julian Green, Danny Szetela, Kenny Cooper, Sal Zizzo.
The idea of development by competing against the best in the world - which isn't the case in MLS, obviously - makes a ton of sense, but I suspect a player develops first and foremost by playing, regardless of where. And so playing a lot in MLS probably is better for development than playing sparingly in Europe.

[JWags85]

Your overall point is well taken, and I'm not really defending the push for young American players to stay stateside, but this is a key phrase here. With some notable exceptions, young American players who've gone overseas find themselves glued to the bench or loaned to second-division clubs, where they don't develop.
I'm thinking of much hyped players like Julian Green, Danny Szetela, Kenny Cooper, Sal Zizzo.
The idea of development by competing against the best in the world - which isn't the case in MLS, obviously - makes a ton of sense, but I suspect a player develops first and foremost by playing, regardless of where. And so playing a lot in MLS probably is better for development than playing sparingly in Europe.

I understand your point, but I view a lot of the MLS academies as works in progress, where the B-squad or loan programs in Europe are a bit more fine tuned.  Listen, when it comes to 16-18 year olds, there is a ton of variability, so its kind of a crap shoot no matter where they are developing.  Szetela struggled as a pro, even in Columbus.  Cooper was never Man U quality, so it probably wasn't a good move.  Zizzo had health issues.  But all of those cases are a decade or more back, and I think US Soccer is at a much different place with youth talent (though obviously not at the top levels).  I look at guys like McKinnie, Adams, Pulisic, there is no way they would have been better suited developing in MLS.  Hell, Walker Zimmerman is pretty damn good but I think he's gonna be a lifer in MLS and probably as a result never be a USMNT regular starter.

You look at the US roster for the U-20 WC and its a great start.  Most everyone is in Europe, and there was the midfield clump from FC Dallas, who is the best academy in the MLS.  But if we start seeing preference for other MLS guys as these guys progress and develop abroad, thats a significant favoritism issue we've seen, and Klinnsman rightly railed against.

[Pakuni]

  But if we start seeing preference for other MLS guys as these guys progress and develop abroad, thats a significant favoritism issue we've seen, and Klinnsman rightly railed against.

Interestingly enough, there's a similar debate in the hockey community, where Americans playing in the CHL have at times been bypassed in favor of those from the USNDTP and the college ranks when the U-20 teams have been chosen.

[Its DJOver]

Academies are tricky because you can literally do everything right, and still have dry spells without producing.  Some years you can drop a Frenkie De Jong, Matthijis De Ligt, Hakim Ziyech, and Donny Van De Beek (combined value at around 250 mil), and some years the prize of your class will be Ryan Babel (ask a Liverpool fan if he was worth it).  All of those players were at one time highly rated and at the best academy in the world, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.  If you consistently pump resources into your academy it will eventually pay off.  Few (if any) MLS teams have figured this out/have the resources to do this, which is why you should always go abroad if given the chance.  It's not guaranteed that you'll have success if you do, but your chances will almost always be increased. 

[JWags85]

I know it’s only Guyana, but I think I’m gonna be a really big Tyler Boyd fan.

Absent him, Gregg Berhalter put together a really weird lineup and made some weird changes. He doesn’t look like he has a clue

[jesmu84]

Zardes stinks.

Boyd is fun. So is pulisic

Is mckennie good?

Arriola looked solid

[mu03eng]

I like a fair amount of the talent on the roster but the fact that players like Zardes are on the roster let alone getting serious run is appalling.

And I love Bradley just as much as anyone but hes a crutch we need to move on from. Time to go full youth movement and put all the money on the WC22 spot.