NL Central Pissing Match - 2011

[drewm88]

The Cubs have been top 10 in attendance every year since 2000 and still are top 10 right now.  Despite an organization that has been as frustrating as any since 2003 and a team right now, that has been mentioned, is in shambles.  Just stop, you sound like a fool.  I didn't realize not having every game be standing room only constituted bandwagon fans.  Did you count the rooftops too?  No, you were probably too busy gleefully running to the computer to pile on criticism.

Settle down, Wags.

Average home attendance (MLB rank)
2011- 36,339 (9th)
2010- 37,814 (7th)
2009- 39,610 (6th)
2008- 40,743 (7th)
2007- 40,153 (6th)
2006- 39,040 (6th)
2005- 38,749 (6th)
2004- 39,138 (6th)
2003- 37,032 (6th)

Attendance is clearly down, and I would argue that the difference would be much more drastic if we could see actual attendance rather than tickets sold. (And I'm a Cubs fan.) That being said, I don't think Cubs fans are bandwagon fans. Cubs fans aren't the sole group that makes up Wrigley crowds. Your lower attendance/bandwagon effect probably comes from all the people who are there just to be there rather than to watch the game, IMO.

[ringout]

The Cubs have been top 10 in attendance every year since 2000 and still are top 10 right now.  Despite an organization that has been as frustrating as any since 2003 and a team right now, that has been mentioned, is in shambles.  Just stop, you sound like a fool.  I didn't realize not having every game be standing room only constituted bandwagon fans.  Did you count the rooftops too?  No, you were probably too busy gleefully running to the computer to pile on criticism.

I'm just pointing out, as with all things involving Chicago sports, if the team is down, attendance goes into the sh*tter.  As a percentage of MSMA population, Chicago doesn't support their sports teams worth a d*mn.

[JWags85]

Settle down, Wags.

Average home attendance (MLB rank)
2011- 36,339 (9th)
2010- 37,814 (7th)
2009- 39,610 (6th)
2008- 40,743 (7th)
2007- 40,153 (6th)
2006- 39,040 (6th)
2005- 38,749 (6th)
2004- 39,138 (6th)
2003- 37,032 (6th)

Attendance is clearly down, and I would argue that the difference would be much more drastic if we could see actual attendance rather than tickets sold. (And I'm a Cubs fan.) That being said, I don't think Cubs fans are bandwagon fans. Cubs fans aren't the sole group that makes up Wrigley crowds. Your lower attendance/bandwagon effect probably comes from all the people who are there just to be there rather than to watch the game, IMO.

I don't disagree.  Anyone who has been to a game knows attendance is down.  And there are a variety of reasons for that.  I just get genuinely tired of this "Cubs fans are bandwagon fans" notion.  I hear it from Sox fans (of whom I would argue there are just as many bandwagon fans since 2005), Brewers fans, etc...

I'm just pointing out, as with all things involving Chicago sports, if the team is down, attendance goes into the sh*tter.  As a percentage of MSMA population, Chicago doesn't support their sports teams worth a d*mn.

Seriously? This again?  I thought this ended with the Blackhawks thread.  What other sports are there to add fuel to your fire?  The Bulls who have been top 3 in attendance the last 5 years (usually 1 or 2) and have only been out of the top 5 once in the last decade?  Or the Bears, who aren't in the top 10 because Soldier Field has one of the smaller capacities in the NFL.

This is just a consistent argument from someone who hates Chicago and Chicago sports.  Ask the rest of the country and I don't think you'll find many people who consider Chicago a bad sports town.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm just pointing out, as with all things involving Chicago sports, if the team is down, attendance goes into the sh*tter.  As a percentage of MSMA population, Chicago doesn't support their sports teams worth a d*mn.

In the 1999-2000 season, the Bulls went 17-65 and led the league in attendance.

Nice try though.

[Lennys Tap]

The Cubs have more to sell than most other franchises. Vibrant, "happening" and affluent neighborhood, romantic (if crumbling) ballpark, their own superstation, the role of perennial underdog, etc. This has allowed them to stay strong attendance-wise even when the main product (baseball) left much to be desired. But no franchise is immune when downturns in the economy and team performance occur simultaneously. I suspect this September will bring many announced crowds of 35,000+ with fewer than 20,000 in the park. Next season, actual ticket sales will fall somewhat and stay down until the team improves, the economy totally rebounds or both.

The fact that demand is affected by the quality of the product doesn't make a consumer a "band wagon" fan - just shows he's paying attention.

[ringout]

In the 1999-2000 season, the Bulls went 17-65 and led the league in attendance.

Nice try though.

You are correct.   DaaaBullsssssss have been in the top 10 of NBA attendance since 2001.  My Bad.

[MerrittsMustache]

The Cubs have more to sell than most other franchises. Vibrant, "happening" and affluent neighborhood, romantic (if crumbling) ballpark, their own superstation, the role of perennial underdog, etc. This has allowed them to stay strong attendance-wise even when the main product (baseball) left much to be desired. But no franchise is immune when downturns in the economy and team performance occur simultaneously. I suspect this September will bring many announced crowds of 35,000+ with fewer than 20,000 in the park. Next season, actual ticket sales will fall somewhat and stay down until the team improves, the economy totally rebounds or both.

The fact that demand is affected by the quality of the product doesn't make a consumer a "band wagon" fan - just shows he's paying attention.

+1

It's also important to note that it was clear that the Cubs were clearly getting worse and that their window had closed, yet the owner raised ticket prices each of the last two seasons and appears to have no long-term plan. That's a recipe for decreased attendance.

[🏀]

You are correct.   DaaaBullsssssss have been in the top 10 of NBA attendance since 2001.  My Bad.

Enjoy the Admirals and Wave when Milwaukee/Bradley Center is no longer a viable option for the Bucks.

[Hards Alumni]

Enjoy the Admirals and Wave when Milwaukee/Bradley Center is no longer a viable option for the Bucks.

The Bucks aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[ringout]

Enjoy the Admirals and Wave when Milwaukee/Bradley Center is no longer a viable option for the Bucks.

The only reason to go to The BC is to watch Our Marquette Warriors. 

I know I should care about the Bucks, but NBA basketball does not excite me.

[MUBurrow]

kind of a cheap shot on the bucks maybe leaving town.

i will say that I think its not right to call Chicago sports fans bandwagon in regards to any team except the hawks. across the board those other franchises get supported in up and down years. cubs are probably the least bandwagony of all - i think people like to get the whole trixie-cub-fan thing confused with bandwagon. just because there might be a large number of cubs fans that arent knowledgeable, etc, and offend the midwestern down homey sensitivities doesnt make them bandwagon. cub fans show up, sit in the bleachers with their shirts off and trucker hats, and get totally blitzed win or lose. and i dont mean that to be backhanded, i was one of the not so proud brewers fans in attendance on monday to see our set up man get booed and the wave in a tie game in the 9th inning. so, you know, (i) be not proud.

[Hards Alumni]

kind of a cheap shot on the bucks maybe leaving town.

i will say that I think its not right to call Chicago sports fans bandwagon in regards to any team except the hawks. across the board those other franchises get supported in up and down years. cubs are probably the least bandwagony of all - i think people like to get the whole trixie-cub-fan thing confused with bandwagon. just because there might be a large number of cubs fans that arent knowledgeable, etc, and offend the midwestern down homey sensitivities doesnt make them bandwagon. cub fans show up, sit in the bleachers with their shirts off and trucker hats, and get totally blitzed win or lose. and i dont mean that to be backhanded, i was one of the not so proud brewers fans in attendance on monday to see our set up man get booed and the wave in a tie game in the 9th inning. so, you know, (i) be not proud.

Cameron Loe deserves to get booed.  He has been terrible for months.

[LON]

Cameron Loe deserves to get booed.  He has been terrible for months.

Roenicke did him no favors by basically pitching him for the first 20 games of the year...or so it seemed.

[GGGG]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6746478/undervalued-sluggers

Interesting article on how crappy the Brewers' defense is.

[MU B2002]

Brewers just got Krod.  Thoughts?

[Mayor McCheese]

Brewers just got Krod.  Thoughts?

Time to get rid of Kameron Loe.... and off to the playoffs!

[MUBurrow]

Brewers just got Krod.  Thoughts?

Pending confirmation that my understanding of mlb free agency is solid, I really like this deal for the crew because of how little we give up.  K-Rod will almost surely project as a type A FA at the end of the year, so as long as the crew don't let him get to his 55 games finished benchmark, the crew don't give up much.  The Mets are sending some cash (ironic, no?) which offsets some of this year's salary and/or next years $3.5M buyout, depending on how you look at it. Then as a type A, the brewers should get a teams top pick as well as a compensatory pick for losing him at the end of the year.

So the crew give up 2 to be named, but get two picks back from losing a type A.  They also get part of the $$ they owe K-Rod between this year and his buyout back from the Mets.

IF that analysis is correct, thats a pretty good player for very little cost.

[NavinRJohnson]

So with the bullpen well shored up, if they go get JJ Hardy or Jose Reyes are they the obvious front runners in the NL?

[MU B2002]

Are the Phillies no longer in the NL?

[dwaderoy2004]

K-rod has a 7.11 ERA this season in non-save situations.  His WHIP is a career worst 1.41.  His K-rate is also a career low.  So basically, he gives up a lot of contact, which is not a good thing when the brewers defense behind him is so bad.  Even if he doesn't reach his vesting of 55 games finished, he's still due 3.5 million next year as a buyout.  Plus, we don't know who the players are that the brewers gave up.  If it ends up being even one of Wily Peralta, Tyler Thornburg or Khris Davis, the Brewers gave up too much.  Personally think it's a move that does little, if anything, to improve the club, while giving up a lot of money and potentially one of the few remaining prospects in the system. 

[reinko]

K-rod has a 7.11 ERA this season in non-save situations.  His WHIP is a career worst 1.41.  His K-rate is also a career low.  So basically, he gives up a lot of contact, which is not a good thing when the brewers defense behind him is so bad.  Even if he doesn't reach his vesting of 55 games finished, he's still due 3.5 million next year as a buyout.  Plus, we don't know who the players are that the brewers gave up.  If it ends up being even one of Wily Peralta, Tyler Thornburg or Khris Davis, the Brewers gave up too much.  Personally think it's a move that does little, if anything, to improve the club, while giving up a lot of money and potentially one of the few remaining prospects in the system. 

As a Brewers I just hope this past June was an outlier.  Looking at his game log, in April in he had an ERA 1.86, May, 1.65 in May, 7.71 in June, and 0.00 in July thus far (in 4 appearances).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/5357/francisco-rodriguez

10 of his 15 ER this year happened in June, as did all 3 of his HR's. 

Crossing my fingers.  Go Brewers

[NavinRJohnson]

Are the Phillies no longer in the NL?

Yes, they are. Which is why I asked the question. If they can get a legit SS like Reyes or Hardy, it shores up the defense, and certainly puts their offense ahead of the Phillies. I'll take the Brewer's bullpen. The Phillies rotation is better, but I would suggest the gap may be a bit wider in name/reputation than it is in ability/performance.

[GGGG]

The Brewers defensive problems go well beyond shortstop.  That entire infield is full of defenders that are *at best* average.  Part of me thinks that you just get the best SS bat available and screw the defense entirely.

[NavinRJohnson]

The Brewers defensive problems go well beyond shortstop. 

Of course they do, but if you can take what is currently probably the weakest spot and turn it to the strongest, you have drastically improved the defense, and while it won't make it 'good' overall, I think you could potentially take it out of the 'problem' category. Not to mention the fact that, as you suggest, you would also be taking the weakest spot in the order, and moving into the upper half.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yes, they are. Which is why I asked the question. If they can get a legit SS like Reyes or Hardy, it shores up the defense, and certainly puts their offense ahead of the Phillies. I'll take the Brewer's bullpen. The Phillies rotation is better, but I would suggest the gap may be a bit wider in name/reputation than it is in ability/performance.

Interesting. If anything, I'd say it's Greinke (and his 5.45 ERA) whose value is being overrated.

Numbers at the break...
Phi SP: 42-24, 2.93 ERA, 4.3:1 K/BB, .242 BAA
Mil SP: 37-23, 4.14 ERA, 2.7:1 K/BB, .255 BAA

Phi Pen: 15-10, 3.24 ERA, 1.8:1 K/BB, .232 BAA
Mil Pen: 12-20*, 3.92 ERA, 2.7:1 K/BB, .250 BAA
            (*-most in MLB)