Indiana Playing Better

[LCDutchman]

Like it or not, Indiana has improved dramatically in 2011.  The injuries may have helped the rotation.  Crean is starting to get traction. He is coaching and acting more like he did when he came to MU than when he left.  Losing will do that to anyone.    That being said the Big Ten is not the Big East by any stretch of the imagination.

[77ncaachamps]

If St. John's is the #11 team in the Big East and beats Duke by 20+ points, then the 10th ranked team in the Big Ten should...nevermind.

Don't kid yourself. Look at the cupcakes he lined up for his team:

Florida Gulf Coast
Wright State
Mississippi Valley State
Evansville
North Carolina Central
Northwestern State
Savannah State
SIUE
South Carolina State
and a Northern Iowa team that lost to the cellar dwelling Iowa

Two big ten wins, both at home: Michigan and #20 Illinois.

They'll win maybe one more: Iowa at home.

[fronika7clarke]

Indiana was little shook of in past but now they are going better and better.

[rocky_warrior]

Err...after losing to NU tonight, looks like they'll end with a worse conference record than last year.  Still gotta play the games though.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Err...after losing to NU tonight, looks like they'll end with a worse conference record than last year.  Still gotta play the games though.

Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising.  Want to double the bet?   

[Lennys Tap]

Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising.  Want to double the bet?  

They're playing without ONE starter - from LAST YEAR - Creek. He was so bad this year his minutes were dwindling (think he was coming off the bench) before he got hurt again. Jones and Watford have missed some time but were both back for tonight's home loss to Northwestern and have been for awhile. After tonight TC has a record of 8-42 in conference, 8-44 counting the post season tourney.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They're playing without ONE starter - from LAST YEAR - Creek. He was so bad this year his minutes were dwindling (think he was coming off the bench) before he got hurt again. Jones and Watford have missed some time but were both back for tonight's home loss to Northwestern and have been for awhile. After tonight TC has a record of 8-42 in conference, 8-44 counting the post season tourney.

That's cute, but we're talking about this year's team and they have been playing without 3 starters for significant stretches.  Watford is playing with a broken bone in his hand...I wonder if you need your hand for basketball?  Crazy how rosters change each year.

Would you like in on the action Lenny?  It will be like picking options...should be right up your alley. 

[rocky_warrior]

Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising.  Want to double the bet?   

Ah, the excuses you'll make for Crean. Wasn't this the year he was suppose to show improvement and most likely be an NIT team?

He'll get a few more years, and if no success, they'll let him go.  He will likely go .500 this year and get a NIT bit and NCAAs the following years. 

Seems like you agree with me more than you'd like to admit.  Except, he still isn't obtaining even your modest levels of "success".

Double the bet?  Would that mean I would have to wear IU underwear if I lost?  Nah, I 'm not willing to risk my ass being exposed to that kind of filth. 

[Tugg Speedman]

May 4, 2010 Chicos Said (about IU)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.0
He will get over .500 this year.  All he has to do is have his team improve 6 games in the win column.  They likely would have been .500 this year if not for the loss of their best player to injury.  I'd say 17-15 this year or somewhere in that realm.

---

January 26, 2010
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17568.0
They'll be NIT next year and NCAA the year after.  I'll collect my debt from Rocky in the process.

---

Indiana's record under Crean:

2009 = 6-25 (1-17)
2010 = 10-21 (4-14)
2011 =  (a/o Feb 20) = 12-15 (3-10)

Chicos, you've been wrong on IU since March 30, 2008 and I see no reason why you'll be correct going forward.

Going forward only two words matter, Cody Zeller.  Dickie V has proclaimed Zeller a program changer.  No more excuses.  Time to show something. 

If Crean doesn't "get it done" with Zeller next year, you'll be taking pictures of yourself on November 1, 2012.  "Get it done" is defined as NIT and above .500 overall and 8-8 in the B10.  Then pre-season pick for NCAA for the 2012 season and other top 15 recruiting class.

My money is on Rocky

[Lennys Tap]

That's cute, but we're talking about this year's team and they have been playing without 3 starters for significant stretches.  Watford is playing with a broken bone in his hand...I wonder if you need your hand for basketball?  Crazy how rosters change each year.

Would you like in on the action Lenny?  It will be like picking options...should be right up your alley.  

Here are the "pesky facts". Indiana has played no games (zero) without Creek, Watford AND Jones. In Big 10 games in which they all played IU is 1-4. In Big 10 games in which they are missing just Creek (5.8 ppg, 2.2 rb, .8 asst, 1.2 to) IU is 0-3. IU is 2-4 when missing 2 of their "big three" (Jones and Creek or Wadford and Creek). Conclusion: They stink when all three or two of the three play. They still stink when only one of the three plays but not as bad. Maybe if all three actually did go down at once IU could contend for that coveted NIT bid you predicted.

Regarding your bet with Rocky, I think you'll win, but not because Indiana doesn't want to fire TC. I just think that given economic realities noone has the balls to tell the taxpayers they have to pay the most expensive teacher at Indiana a boatload of dough for not working.

[Tugg Speedman]

Regarding your bet with Rocky, I think you'll win, but not because Indiana doesn't want to fire TC. I just think that given economic realities noone has the balls to tell the taxpayers they have to pay the most expensive teacher at Indiana a boatload of dough for not working.

Everything IU basketball wants to be is going to unfold in the next two years now that Crean has Zeller.  Dickie V said he is a program changer.  Well if the program does not change with Zeller, it never will under Crean and will stagnate until they fire him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

May 4, 2010 Chicos Said (about IU)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.0
He will get over .500 this year.  All he has to do is have his team improve 6 games in the win column.  They likely would have been .500 this year if not for the loss of their best player to injury.  I'd say 17-15 this year or somewhere in that realm.

---

January 26, 2010
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17568.0
They'll be NIT next year and NCAA the year after.  I'll collect my debt from Rocky in the process.

---

Indiana's record under Crean:

2009 = 6-25 (1-17)
2010 = 10-21 (4-14)
2011 =  (a/o Feb 20) = 12-15 (3-10)

Chicos, you've been wrong on IU since March 30, 2008 and I see no reason why you'll be correct going forward.

Going forward only two words matter, Cody Zeller.  Dickie V has proclaimed Zeller a program changer.  No more excuses.  Time to show something.  

If Crean doesn't "get it done" with Zeller next year, you'll be taking pictures of yourself on November 1, 2012.  "Get it done" is defined as NIT and above .500 overall and 8-8 in the B10.  Then pre-season pick for NCAA for the 2012 season and other top 15 recruiting class.

My money is on Rocky

My predictions were assuming healthy bodies Another84.  When 3 starters are out, that changes things considerably.  They also lost Michel, their 7 footer when the NCAA ruled him ineligible.  So when you're out there saying I was wrong, it would be nice to at least put on your thinking cap and take in that predictions are made with the assumptions the roster is in tact.  We all know if MU had 3 starters go down or a key player ruled ineligible, you certainly would say that's not an issue...LOL

Would they have beaten MSU with Jones and Watford at 100% (Watford broke a bone in his hand in that game in the second half).  Yes.   Would IU have likely beaten Iowa at home at full strength?  Yes.  Etc.

Lenny, I never said 3 starters at the same time, did I?  No, I didn't.  My response when I said they're playing without 3 starters was in reference to the comment that they will have a "worse conference record than last year".  This year they have played without 3 starters in a number of games.  FACT.

And sorry Lenny, you are dead wrong on your analysis about them not wanting to cut him lose because of economics.  They have the resources to do it anytime they want.  They are hanging on to him because he's running a clean program, he has stellar recruits coming in the next 2+ years, etc.  Just because you and others want to dream up facts doesn't mean you are entitled to your own set of facts as you wish them to be.  

They are the 3rd youngest team in the Big Ten.  Their upcoming few classes are absolutely loaded.  For you guys that love star rankings so much, it blows anything away that we've seen in decades.  I'm not much into this stars crap, but I know some of you are...here they are.

Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star

Now, if he doesn't get it done once all those kids arrive, then you're right.  The Big Ten will be down slightly next year.  IU will finally not be one of the youngest teams in the conference and assuming they can shake the unbelievable injury bug, they should be fine.  But, since they haven't been able to shake the injury bug, all those predictions are predicated on them actually having starters that can stay healthy.

In the future, I'll make sure to put a big * so we can use our noggins when taking into account major injuries.  This just in...I think the Packers have a great chance to repeat next year and will predict it to be so *assumes Aaron Rodgers is actually healthy for the year and in the playoffs, as are the key components to his offense and defense.

[Blackhat]

Crean did what he had to do to get his recruiting turned around.   Little pay for play, that is becoming very popular with AAU coaches wielding much influence.

I think Indiana will be much better in two years under Crean and I'll enjoy watching Crean bring back Indiana to relevancy.

Crean is a good coach who will maximize his talent and install good defense (that hacks a lot).

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I love the "our 7'er is ineligible" mantra that u2 is planted as the excuse for the year.

[Jay Bee]

My predictions were assuming healthy bodies Another84.  When 3 starters are out, that changes things considerably.  They also lost Michel, their 7 footer when the NCAA ruled him ineligible.  So when you're out there saying I was wrong, it would be nice to at least put on your thinking cap and take in that predictions are made with the assumptions the roster is in tact.

Ahhh, the backtracker is back at it!  Always an excuse.  Can you recalculate your prediction based on the '3 starters (who?!)' being out?  Maybe also include Hummel being out for Purdue... or MSU's issues... heck, even throw in the injuries at Minnesota of Al Nolen and Mo Walker along with Devoe Joseph's transfer into your revision and let us know how your prediction would have changed...

Good luck to your team in 2016 when you might stop giving them a free pass.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ahhh, the backtracker is back at it!  Always an excuse.  Can you recalculate your prediction based on the '3 starters (who?!)' being out?  Maybe also include Hummel being out for Purdue... or MSU's issues... heck, even throw in the injuries at Minnesota of Al Nolen and Mo Walker along with Devoe Joseph's transfer into your revision and let us know how your prediction would have changed...

Good luck to your team in 2016 when you might stop giving them a free pass.

No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team.  Minnesota lost one guy.  Michigan State kicked one guy off a team.  That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.

The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*

*This assumes the team is healthy

[Jay Bee]

No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team.  Minnesota lost one guy.  Michigan State kicked one guy off a team.  That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.

The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*

*This assumes the team is healthy

Your original claim that "they're playing without 3 starters" was offbase, but I'm happy to see you backtracking on that one as well. 

Minnesota lost Mo Walker to injury, Devoe Joseph to transfer, and Al Nolen to injury.  They have their only three-pointer shooter playing the point because of Joseph and Nolen being out.  To claim that Minnesota 'lost one guy' is wrong.

As for I4, I simply said I don't expect you to stop with the free passes for them until at least 2016 (although more likely you will never stop so long as your guy is there). 

"Won't be good" is subjective - It's Indiana.  What does "good" mean for Indiana?  Are you going to the BTT, bro?

[Lennys Tap]

No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team.  Minnesota lost one guy.  Michigan State kicked one guy off a team.  That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.

The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*

*This assumes the team is healthy

How many times does a lie have to be repeated before those not paying attention will accept it as truth?

1. Creek was NOT a starter when he was lost to injury. He was a reserve whose playing time was dwindling because of his poor play.

2. That leaves Jones and Watford, who each missed 3 games.

3. In the TOTAL of 6 games missed by one of TWO starters Indiana is 2-4. In 8 games in which all of their starters have played they are 1-7. It's likely they'll finish 1-11 in games with all their starters playing.

However inconvenient to an Indiana apologist such as yourself those are the facts. Repeatedly misrepresenting them won't change them.

[HoopsMalone]

No matter how you dress it up, Indiana has been absolutely pathetic under Crean, even give expectations.  You can't lay out a sob story about Sampson in 2008 as an excuse forever. 

If "It's Indiana",  that place should recruit itself like it has in the past.  An Indiana team this year in the Big Ten should not be this bad. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

No matter how you dress it up, Indiana has been absolutely pathetic under Crean, even give expectations.  You can't lay out a sob story about Sampson in 2008 as an excuse forever. 

If "It's Indiana",  that place should recruit itself like it has in the past.  An Indiana team this year in the Big Ten should not be this bad. 

Name another team that started practically from scratch...please name one while also having legitimate handcuffs on how they could rebuild.  I'd love to see an example since you say they shouldn't have been this bad.  Please then, show us an example in which a team started with ONE PLAYER returning who had less than 10 career points scored AND a team that was thought to be going on major probation before the first major signing period (which means they lost out on an entire year of recruits).

Please...I'm all ears on the examples.......

[Lennys Tap]

In the future, I'll make sure to put a big * so we can use our noggins when taking into account major injuries.  This just in...I think the Packers have a great chance to repeat next year and will predict it to be so *assumes Aaron Rodgers is actually healthy for the year and in the playoffs, as are the key components to his offense and defense.

This just in. The Packers lost lots of key components on offense and defense THIS YEAR. They could have felt sorry for themselves and made excuses, I suppose. They decided to win the Super Bowl instead.

[Jay Bee]

Indiana will be nowhere near It's Indiana once again next year.. not sure how much longer people will put up with it.  Not everyone is a blind fan boy.  I think they'll be hoping for a middle of the pack finish going into next year and would be pleased with a 5th or 6th place Big Ten finish.  Don't know if they can get there, but It's Indiana doesn't mean much.  Who knows, maybe they can try and compete for a conference title by 2016 or so.  As long as the AAU relationship continues to give them kids, they should have some decent players.  Of course, the current coach will always be a hurdle to achieve greatness.  

They are bringing in a couple of traditional guys next year, which should appease some of the fans.  Congrats!

[Jay Bee]

 Over 72% of their games he started numb nuts.  Don't tell me a guy who starts 72% of your games isn't a starter.  

Dude I know you get to operate by a different set of rules than others on this site, but can you try to chill with the personal attacks and name calling? 

As for starter... didn't Creek come off the bench for the first five Big Ten games of the season?  Each and everyone one?  And those were the last games he played this year... 

In those games he played 21, 13, 24, 15 and 13 minutes and often had the exact same time on the court as one of the starting guards... He wasn't a starter.  He was a guy that was coming off the bench and not playing well.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I love how these posts disappear.... 

[ChicosBailBonds]

How many times does a lie have to be repeated before those not paying attention will accept it as truth?

1. Creek was NOT a starter when he was lost to injury. He was a reserve whose playing time was dwindling because of his poor play.

2. That leaves Jones and Watford, who each missed 3 games.

3. In the TOTAL of 6 games missed by one of TWO starters Indiana is 2-4. In 8 games in which all of their starters have played they are 1-7. It's likely they'll finish 1-11 in games with all their starters playing.

However inconvenient to an Indiana apologist such as yourself those are the facts. Repeatedly misrepresenting them won't change them.

I tried to answer your post but it was deleted.  The other day some of my posts were deleted.  It's crazy when you can't respond to your stuff without a moderator killing it, yet same moderators to this day allow racial comments to be made against posters.  Really incredible.

I'll simply say this, Creek started 72% of IU's games...that makes him a starter.  He got hurt after Colorado and they backed him off minutes...that's why he didn't play as a starter for a the games immediately after Colorado.  Not sure why you didn't include that in your post, but you didn't.  You'll have to answer that.

The games that the three missed, please...you again do us all a disservice with your nonsense.   Creek, Jones and Watford are their top scorers (1, 2 and 4), Jones the top assist guy, Watford near the top in rebounds, etc.  Pivotal players.  Your 1-7 comment is asinine.  It's as if you're saying 1-7 with these guys has no bearing on who they played....wow.  Funny that the 1-7 occurred against teams like #1 Ohio State, Kentucky, etc while the games they had a "better record" when not all of them played were against teams not even in that same ballpark.  Which begs the question if all of them played, would they have beaten MSU (they lost by 1 with Jones and Creek not playing and Watford with broken hand), by Iowa by 1 point (Jones, Creek and Watford didn't play), etc, etc.  But you would rather make it as if the 1-7 stretch was somehow against the same calibre of teams.  WOW

So keep going with your half truths and incomplete assertions.  I'm sure this response will be deleted as well, just like the ones the other day for no reason at all.