Indiana Playing Better

[ChicosBailBonds]

Dude I know you get to operate by a different set of rules than others on this site, but can you try to chill with the personal attacks and name calling?  

As for starter... didn't Creek come off the bench for the first five Big Ten games of the season?  Each and everyone one?  And those were the last games he played this year...  

In those games he played 21, 13, 24, 15 and 13 minutes and often had the exact same time on the court as one of the starting guards... He wasn't a starter.  He was a guy that was coming off the bench and not playing well.

Dude, I know you rarely get the facts straight so let me help you.  Did he start 72% of their games and then got hurt so they eased back on him?  I'm not talking the knee fracture in January, I'm talking his December injury.  You'll note that the first games following the injury he played only 13 and 15 minutes, SEASON LOWS.  Why do you and Lenny ignore that injury following the Colorado game?  Hmmm.   Hmmm.  

Was he the player he was last year....nope.  That's the shame of it, classy kid.  IU has been crushed with injuries the last two years.

I wonder if MU had 3 starters from this year's team miss the amount of games IU's players have (or play with broken bones at 3/4 level) if any of our fans would raise it as an issue. Nah...probably not, they wouldn't say a thing.

[HoopsMalone]

Name another team that started practically from scratch...please name one while also having legitimate handcuffs on how they could rebuild.  I'd love to see an example since you say they shouldn't have been this bad.  Please then, show us an example in which a team started with ONE PLAYER returning who had less than 10 career points scored AND a team that was thought to be going on major probation before the first major signing period (which means they lost out on an entire year of recruits).

Please...I'm all ears on the examples.......

I would have to see how Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kansas, or Kentucky would do.  They are the only way to have an apples to apples comparison.

And it's not 2008 anymore.  That year, he gets some slack.  But, year 3 IU is getting swept by Iowa and in the basement of the B11.

If IU was a bubble team/in the NIT, then you could invoke some sympathy for where they started.  I mean, it's pathetic and I have no idea why you are defending it.  There is no context that helps this.  Context explains why they are not the IU of hold. 

Crean is not at Southeastern Hawaii Tech.  He is at INDIANA.  Crean had a top 5 class in 2009 under the threat of probation so I don't know what that really means.  Who would he have gotten in 2009 that he missed?

[HoopsMalone]

I wonder if MU had 3 starters from this year's team miss the amount of games IU's players have (or play with broken bones at 3/4 level) if any of our fans would raise it as an issue. Nah...probably not, they wouldn't say a thing.

MU and IU is not an apples to apples comparison.  Injuries can be devastating, but at IU in year 3, the next man in should be able to win 5 or 6 Big Ten games at IU.  On average, MU should not be able to recruit the depth/talent that IU should be able to recruit. 

For an analogy, if Mark Texiera gets hurt, then the Yankees on average will have more talent to make up for his injury and replace him.  They are the Yankees.  If Prince Fielder went down, the Brewers would not likely have the resources to replace him.  "It's Indiana" is closer to the Yankees than the Brewers, while Marquette is closer to the Brewers.  Injuries to starters shouldn't mean the same thing to each team. 

That being said, Buzz has had 3 recruiting classes and Crean has had 3 recruiting classes.  Buzz's recruiting classes have survived transfers and injuries.  Fulce, Liam, JMay, Reggie Smith, etc. all could have played big roles.  MU has survived those setbacks. 

[NersEllenson]

However you want to slice it, Indiana, thus far has only played 3 games against CURRENT Top 25 teams - Kentucky, Wisconsin, and Purdue.  However, they will get to double the amount here in the next couple of weeks as they play Purdue, Wisconsin, Ohio State.

IU been playing a significantly inferior schedule than has MU - so it is really pointless to try to compare teams. 

As for the "shackles" placed on Indiana due to the Sampson mess - they lost 1 scholarship for 1 year, and the number of phone calls they were able to make to recruits was reduced.  No post season penalties.  A slap on the wrist at best.

[NersEllenson]

Another misnomer about how "bad" the situation at Indiana was upon the time of Crean's arrival was the program's recent history - actually, IU compares VERY favorable to MU over the 10 year decade of 2000-2010:

2008 0-1 Lost to Arkansas in first round, 86-72

2007 1-1 Defeated Gonzaga in first round, 70-57
Lost to UCLA in second round, 54-49

2006 1-1 Defeated San Diego State in first round, 87-83
Lost to Gonzaga in second round, 90-80

2003 1-1 Defeated Alabama in first round, 67-62
Lost to Pittsburgh in second round, 74-52

2002 5-1 Defeated Utah in first round, 75-56
Defeated North Carolina-Wilmington in second round, 76-67
Defeated Duke in regional semifinal, 74-73
Defeated Kent State in regional final, 81-69
Defeated Oklahoma in National Semifinal, 73-64
Lost to Maryland in National Championship, 64-52

[Canadian Dimes]

Are you people freaking kidding me? 

Blaming Indiana's pathetic season on the loss of Guy-Marc Michel??

 I caught an interview with Cream on the radio the other day and listened for a moment...typical Cream...." I will never make excuses....but when Guy-Marc Michel  was ruled ineligible that really hurt us"....

I about lost my lunch and turned the channel. Sounds like others have adopted this battle cry.

 It is so pathetic ...it is akin to Crean saying the same thing about Kinsella breaking his foot. 

Guy-Marc Michel sucks and is just another in a long line of terrible Crean Juco recruits.  The guy averaged 7 points a agme last year playing Juco ball in Idaho!!  Playing the lowest rungs of Juco ball.  We are not talking about Hutchinson or Indian Hills here people we are talking HS equivalent talent and this "Guy" was dropping 7 a game and 6!!!!!!! boards !! 

ROFL!!!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I would have to see how Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kansas, or Kentucky would do.  They are the only way to have an apples to apples comparison.

And it's not 2008 anymore.  That year, he gets some slack.  But, year 3 IU is getting swept by Iowa and in the basement of the B11.

If IU was a bubble team/in the NIT, then you could invoke some sympathy for where they started.  I mean, it's pathetic and I have no idea why you are defending it.  There is no context that helps this.  Context explains why they are not the IU of hold. 

Crean is not at Southeastern Hawaii Tech.  He is at INDIANA.  Crean had a top 5 class in 2009 under the threat of probation so I don't know what that really means.  Who would he have gotten in 2009 that he missed?

So in short, there are no examples.  Thank you. That's exactly the point.  No one has had to start with a completely fresh slate.  NO ONE.  PERIOD.

And this idea that Buzz has survived 3 transfers...of course when you have a bunch of talent already on the team.  It's a lot easier to withstand 3 transfers when you have talent ALREADY on the team.

You're right, this is INDIANA....that's why they have all those 5 star and 4 star players coming in starting next season.  That's exactly right.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are you people freaking kidding me? 

Blaming Indiana's pathetic season on the loss of Guy-Marc Michel??

According to the moderators over at Peegs, you had quite a little run over there pretending to be a IU fan.  Did you have fun before you were banned?  LOL

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chicos - Are you mocking somebody for getting banned from a website?

You just got off a suspension from THIS SITE!!!

[HoopsMalone]

So in short, there are no examples.  Thank you. That's exactly the point.  No one has had to start with a completely fresh slate.  NO ONE.  PERIOD.

Maybe there are no examples of UNC, Duke, UCLA, KU, UK having a 2008-2009 season that Indiana had. However, IT IS NOT 2008 ANYMORE.  One recruiting class leaves in 2008, and you are in the basement of the Big Ten three years later, supposedly because of that?  It's fair that they are not Sweet 16 contenders like an IU team should be 8/10 years, but not this. 

There is nothing relevant about no other top 6 team having a 2008 like Indiana had.  I am not sure where in logic you need to have an example or precedent in order to analyze a situation.  The old eye ball test isn't lying here. 

You can look at a disaster and say that there is no example of a big time school having this happen and then therefore people are irrational for calling things like it is.  I didn't know you need an exact example or precedent to have any credibility in criticizing a basketball program. 

More power to people who say "Let's wait until the recruits get here."  There is some truth to that because talent wins.  But three years in and nothing is built there besides the new practice facility.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Another misnomer about how "bad" the situation at Indiana was upon the time of Crean's arrival was the program's recent history - actually, IU compares VERY favorable to MU over the 10 year decade of 2000-2010:

2008 0-1 Lost to Arkansas in first round, 86-72

2007 1-1 Defeated Gonzaga in first round, 70-57
Lost to UCLA in second round, 54-49

2006 1-1 Defeated San Diego State in first round, 87-83
Lost to Gonzaga in second round, 90-80

2003 1-1 Defeated Alabama in first round, 67-62
Lost to Pittsburgh in second round, 74-52

2002 5-1 Defeated Utah in first round, 75-56
Defeated North Carolina-Wilmington in second round, 76-67
Defeated Duke in regional semifinal, 74-73
Defeated Kent State in regional final, 81-69
Defeated Oklahoma in National Semifinal, 73-64
Lost to Maryland in National Championship, 64-52

Tell me ners, what was the roster on opening day under Crean at IU...how many returning players.  Thanks for playing

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos - Are you mocking somebody for getting banned from a website?

You just got off a suspension from THIS SITE!!!

Suspension is the same as a ban...wow, who knew.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe there are no examples of UNC, Duke, UCLA, KU, UK having a 2008-2009 season that Indiana had. However, IT IS NOT 2008 ANYMORE.  One recruiting class leaves in 2008, and you are in the basement of the Big Ten three years later, supposedly because of that?  It's fair that they are not Sweet 16 contenders like an IU team should be 8/10 years, but not this. 

You're right, it's not 2008 anymore.  That's probably why these guys are coming in

Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star

When's the last time MU had a 5 star player...let alone 3?

[HoopsMalone]

You're right, it's not 2008 anymore.  That's probably why these guys are coming in

Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star

When's the last time MU had a 5 star player...let alone 3?

I have no idea how MU is relevant here.  IU/MU are not the same.

That's great that new recruits are coming.  But, that is not really relevant to what we are talking about either. 

It's ok to admit that IU has not met expectations.  They have not by any means.  Maybe they will in the future. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point.  They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS.  They haven't met LENNY's expectations.  They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations.  They haven't met NERS expectations.

The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul.  Why is that?  Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they?  They just cleaned house in football, again.  Expectations weren't being met in football.  That's what these guys get paid to do.  They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.

So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over?  Odd.  Or is it?  

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I get a little confused as to who/what you are defending. Is Crean responsible for this recruiting haul or is it Indiana and its tradition? The reason I ask is that you ask the question, "When is the last time Marquette had a 5 star?" Of course, the man you love to go to bat for was here for 9 years. Are you calling him out for his recruiting failures? Are you asking why Buzz Williams can't land a 5-star? It's very convoluted.

[TallTitan34]

Chicos, do you believe Marquette would be in a better situation right now had he stayed?

[HoopsMalone]

IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point.  They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS.  They haven't met LENNY's expectations.  They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations.  They haven't met NERS expectations.

The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul.  Why is that?  Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they?  They just cleaned house in football, again.  Expectations weren't being met in football.  That's what these guys get paid to do.  They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.

So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over?  Odd.  Or is it?  

That's fine that you and the AD's at IU are happy with the product.  As a basketball fan, I am calling it like it is.  Three years in and nothing but a lot of smoke and mirrors.  You of course give him a shot to prove it with his incoming recruits.  It'd be dumb to fire Crean.  But there is no way that when they hired Crean they expected this in year 3.  There is no way they expect to lose to Michigan and Iowa at Assembly even given these injuries that keep getting discussed.  

O well.  I guess 2008's offseason was tough so IU shouldn't expect to have progressed to winning home games against bottom feeder Big Ten teams by 2011.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, do you believe Marquette would be in a better situation right now had he stayed?

Interesting question.  We would have had Tyshawn Taylor, Creek, etc, etc.  We likely would have had Jamil Wilson from the very start.  From a consistency standpoint, I believe we would have stayed above the 8th place spot and not in the 11th place we're in now.  Recruiting was really clicking at that point. 

Having said that, it was an opportunity I think was right for him to go and I don't begrudge him for that, though I don't like how he did it.

The question isn't really about RIGHT NOW, it's about where are we going to be longer term.  We won't know that for a little while longer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I get a little confused as to who/what you are defending. Is Crean responsible for this recruiting haul or is it Indiana and its tradition? The reason I ask is that you ask the question, "When is the last time Marquette had a 5 star?" Of course, the man you love to go to bat for was here for 9 years. Are you calling him out for his recruiting failures? Are you asking why Buzz Williams can't land a 5-star? It's very convoluted.

Let me help you through your confusion which was certainly my poor ability to explain it.  My bad.  In my opinion, it's Indiana that is largely responsible, that's why he left MU to begin with.  IU has more upside.  Way way way more in state talent, much better national profile, etc.  In answering the question for HoopsMalone, he said it's Indiana.  He's right, and that's why they are now starting to haul in players in bushels.  The difference is that some of you think that should have started from day one, and that's where you have been wrong on this from day one.

They were under a cloud that the NCAA was going to hammer them, so that killed a lot of their first recruiting class potential (Teague, etc).  They started with one player returning who was essentially the 12th man.  Everyone knew they were going to suck hard which only made recruiting harder.  They had devastating injuries, etc.

All that said, despite three years of "missed expectations" (your expectations, not those of IU), they're landing their best classes NOW.  Why is that?  Why is it that with all these missed expectations from MU fans (LOL, as if they know how IU works), are they sticking with that regime.  Lenny claims it's money which is so laughable it makes me giggle.  There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible.  They just did it with football.  Mark Cuban can write one check and it's taken care of in a heartbeat.  So why is it that the IU President and AD can't see these expectations but all these MU fans can?  Incredible, really incredible.  Maybe MU fans should run IU since the IU folks running the show clearly don't understand how to run their program.  LOL

[TallTitan34]

I think Crean reached his ceiling at Marquette and had to move on.  (He could have handled it better but that's a different arguement.)

I believe Buzz is getting much better recruits than Crean would be getting had he stayed at Marquette.  If there wasn't playing time to offer, Crean seemed to struggle getting quality recruits.

Buzz is a young game coach who makes mistakes, but as he gets experience he will improve.

Marquette is better off with Buzz than Crean in my opinion.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think Crean reached his ceiling at Marquette and had to move on.  (He could have handled it better but that's a different arguement.)

I believe Buzz is getting much better recruits than Crean would be getting had he stayed at Marquette.  If there wasn't playing time to offer, Crean seemed to struggle getting quality recruits.

Buzz is a young game coach who makes mistakes, but as he gets experience he will improve.

Marquette is better off with Buzz than Crean in my opinion.  

Then that begs the question if Buzz is getting "much better recruits than Crean" why are we performing below Crean's teams.  Right?  That's my concern.

I think some people believe college basketball is 90% recruiting and you just throw the ball out there.  I don't quite see it that way.  Recruiting is certainly HUGE and more than 50%.  You can't win without good basketball players.  Having said that, there are teams (like UW-Madison) that win more consistently than we do with less heralded players because they have outstanding coaching.

[TallTitan34]

I don't think we are performing below Crean's Marquette teams.  In 2004 and 2005 we had two NBA players on the roster and went to the NIT. 

You can't have a NCAA season every year even with good talent.  North Carolina and UConn missed the tourny last year.   Michigan State brought back almost all of it's Final Four team from last year and may miss the tournament.  Does this make Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun, and Tom Izzo bad coaches?

[4everwarriors]

Don't forget to count the Spring Creaning that occurred like the cat who flung the greenery at Tommy's coconut like he was playing a game on the midway at the state fair.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=7217148

This is precious.  Discussion of the CBI.