Religion poll - Harris

[GGGG]

I suspect because I haven't been as true to the teachings as I should, that I will not get that E-Ticket.

I suspect God would be awfully lonely if that were the case.

[RawdogDX]

And here you have the crux of all religions, all protestant denominations.    The protestant reformation came out of from people picking and choosing what they wanted to follow.   Today's megachurches, the same.    Do they want to follow the "gospel of prosperity", do they want to follow Pat Robertson,  do they want to follow a guy predicting the end of the world on 5/21/11, do they want to follow Jeremiah Wright, or Rob Bell, do they want to be Anglican, which is 90% Catholic?     The Catholic Church ended up listening to a lot of what Luther had to say.    In the end, even those who follow 100% of Catholic doctrine are rolling the dice and hoping they chose the right horse on which to snag the E-ticket.    We could all be wrong and Islam could have it right.    We won't know until we die.  It is a matter of faith and hope. 

As an agnostic I wouldn't be wrong.  I would say: "Really?  I assigned this a very low probability of being correct." 
Which is how I feel about all religions that say that there is a loving, omnipotent god, with a plan.  A plan that includes large % of population going to hell to be tortured for all time, based on where/when they were born.  (note for catholics: you don't believe this.  Loopholes were added so that Gandhi could go to heaven.)

[Benny B]

As an agnostic I wouldn't be wrong.  I would say: "Really?  I assigned this a very low probability of being correct." 
Which is how I feel about all religions that say that there is a loving, omnipotent god, with a plan.  A plan that includes large % of population going to hell to be tortured for all time, based on where/when they were born.  (note for catholics: you don't believe this.  Loopholes were added so that Gandhi could go to heaven.)

On the cafeteria menu of Catholic beliefs, hell is the tapioca pudding.

[muwarrior69]

Quote from Skatastrophy
It's not personal beliefs.  It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics.  Friggin scary, imo.

Quote from Chicos
Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle.  .  I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making my team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever.  Some folks do, and that's fine by me.  If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm.  I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today.  That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.

At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed.  We'll all find out at some point.

Quote from Benny B
My all-time favorite South Park quote (rant):

"Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."

For someone who made his fortune off of pointing out how 99% of Americans are naive, hypocrites, or just plain dumb, Trey Parker actually has a lot of poignant thoughts when it comes to religion, some of which are revealed in his art, some of which he discusses in interviews.  It's worth a Google search if you have time, regardless of what you believe.


Don’t they still require 12 credits of theology to graduate from Marquette regardless of major. Did any of you take New Testament studies (required of all students when I attended in the 60s)?  If not, it’s a shame. Now I know what St. Paul was up against when he wrote his letter to the Corinthians (First Corinthians, Chapter 15). For those not familiar there were many in Corinth who did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. In his letter he tells the Corinthians that Jesus was seen by Cephas and then by eleven others after his crucifixion and burial. He goes on to say Jesus was seen by James and then by all the remaining apostles. He was even seen by 500 all at the same time and finally he himself is witness.

I write this not to persuade anyone there is a God or not. Just want to let those of you who do not believe there is a God or just don’t know that those of us who do are not “idiots”. I just happen to believe someone who lived during Christ’s life and presents I witness accounts.

On a more serious note God must be a Yankee fan. How else can one explain 48 post season appearances, 40 American League Championships and 27 World Series Championships over the last 90 years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

9 credits of theology to graduate

I took Islam and Buddhism for 6 of my 9 because they were required for my East Asian Studies minor.  So I only had 3 credits of Catholicism but 12 years of it coming into MU.

[HouWarrior]

"Don’t they still require 12 credits of theology to graduate from Marquette regardless of major. Did any of you take New Testament studies (required of all students when I attended in the 60s)?  If not, it’s a shame. Now I know what St. Paul was up against when he wrote his letter to the Corinthians (First Corinthians, Chapter 15). For those not familiar there were many in Corinth who did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. In his letter he tells the Corinthians that Jesus was seen by Cephas and then by eleven others after his crucifixion and burial. He goes on to say Jesus was seen by James and then by all the remaining apostles. He was even seen by 500 all at the same time and finally he himself is witness.

I took the course, but didnt find my education requiring of my indoctrination.
So,  I kept asking questions, and later learned some answers my educators/indoctrinators ignored.. among those things as I learned later....was that ....
neither Paul nor any New Testament writer was a contemporary, eyewitness, or earwitness of Jesus events. Note the year when Corinthians was written.
Which New Testament writer heard the actual Jesus words he quotes, or saw the Jesus acts he describes? None.
Why does Paul claim he was a Pharissee, when all his life events point to him being a Sadduce? There is a big difference.
If Paul was a Pharissee why didnt he write in their much revered Hebrew, and instead in their hated Greek?
There were other New Testament books written, that never made the cut, but we were never told of their existence.

As I said... I took the course...but to this day I  wonder, Why werent we ever told this in our education? I agree with you --we werent idiots... but we were purposefully left ignorant of all facts--- why?

To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?

To give you an accurate perspective the timing of New Testament writing would be....nowdays... someone who spent the last decade writing about the exploits of a soldier in vietnam.. complete with quotes and accounts of his conduct....but told by the writers, as if they were there...Kind of a 2000s dated book---
Vietnam Eyewitness Testament: The acts and words of General Westmoreland, by George Bush....including as told me by Al Haig, and Colin Powell, (with whom I've had my differences).lol

[ChicosBailBonds]

Houston...maybe.


This, again, gets into the wonderful topic of history and what experts want to make it out to be. You may be correct that there are no eyewitnesses to Jesus that wrote the New Testament, certainly a belief held by a number of scholars.  Some scholars argue that the New Testament is mostly made up of writings many years later by people passing on stories, often parables of virtue rather than real accounts of his life.  Yet there are other scholars that say Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to Jesus. 

I have no idea if that is true or not, none of us do. 

As an example, these scholars believe the Gospels were written based on eyewitness testimony from those who knew Jesus or directly by the eyewitnesses themselves.  Again, no idea if it is true but I suspect scholars don't always agree on this stuff.


http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_and_the_eyewitnesses.html?id=zcVVp_YD4w4C

http://www.amazon.com/Eyewitness-Jesus-Matthew-DAncona/dp/0385480512

http://godisforus.com/information/bible/ntdocs/conclusion.htm

[muwarrior69]

To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?

Have you read 1 Corinthians Chapter 15? St. Paul says that if Christ did not rise from the dead our faith is a lie and all those who preach it are liars. He assures us that Christ did indeed arise, from his own and others experience. He was beheaded for that belief. When these words were written is not as important as to the content and message he conveys from his own experience to those who read his words. Again, I was not indoctrinated I find Paul's message inspiring and true. I will take the word of someone who lived it and acknowleges that if Christ were not raised it's all just a lie rather than some scholars two thouand years removed from these events who want to discredit the New Testament and St. Paul just to reinforce their own belief system.

You are free to believe what you want, just please don't insult me for believing Paul's (not my teachers') words.

[Hards Alumni]

To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?

Have you read 1 Corinthians Chapter 15? St. Paul says that if Christ did not rise from the dead our faith is a lie and all those who preach it are liars. He assures us that Christ did indeed arise, from his own and others experience. He was beheaded for that belief. When these words were written is not as important as to the content and message he conveys from his own experience to those who read his words. Again, I was not indoctrinated I find Paul's message inspiring and true. I will take the word of someone who lived it and acknowleges that if Christ were not raised it's all just a lie rather than some scholars two thouand years removed from these events who want to discredit the New Testament and St. Paul just to reinforce their own belief system.

You are free to believe what you want, just please don't insult me for believing Paul's (not my teachers') words.

I don't think he is insulting you.  He is merely asking questions.

[drewm88]

9 credits of theology to graduate

Only 6 for me. (Business, 2010)

[tower912]

I remember the protestant theology overview course, and the one that spent the semester split between liberation theology and the bishops' encyclical on the economy, calling for a capitalism/socialism hybrid........ (mid 80's)

[GGGG]

To Houston's point, if you want to kill some time learning about some texts that were not included in the Biblical canon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

And also how the canon was developed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

One thing you will see is that there were oftentimes legitimate reasons why certain books were kept over others (such as 90% of theologians at the time belived most of Paul's letters to be legit.)  However it was clear that some differing early views of the Christian Church were intentionally disregarded....oftentimes for not sound theological reasons....in the development of what is today the Bible.

[muwarrior69]

9 credits of theology to graduate

I took Islam and Buddhism for 6 of my 9 because they were required for my East Asian Studies minor.  So I only had 3 credits of Catholicism but 12 years of it coming into MU.

When I was attending Marquette you only earned 2 credits for each theology course. I wound up taking 8 classes one with Karl Rahner who was a visiting professor at the time, obtaining a minor in theology. Just to put things in perspective I double majored in Chemistry and Biology; and double minored in Theology and Philosophy. I had to to take one extra semester to complete all my course work, graduating in December '69. It was an interesting time to be at Marquette. There were post Vatican II folks who wanted to change everything and then here were you Pre-Vatican II Stalwarts who wanted to change nothing.

[GGGG]

3 courses here.  I took Intro with some Lutheran professor.  Islam with a really old priest whose name I forgot...taught right out of the book.  And Eastern Orthodoxy with this guy...

http://www.marquette.edu/theology/golitzin.shtml

He was in his first semester of teaching and had trouble with connecting with the class.  But I found him pretty facinating...learned a great deal in that course.

[StillAWarrior]

If I recall correctly, I took three theology courses (I was College of Speech - later renamed CJPA).  I took one general course and two scripture courses with Fr. Kurz.  I enjoyed the classes with Fr. Kurz, and was pleased to see that he's still teaching at Marquette.

[ChicosBailBonds]

3 courses here.  I took Intro with some Lutheran professor.  Islam with a really old priest whose name I forgot...taught right out of the book.  And Eastern Orthodoxy with this guy...

http://www.marquette.edu/theology/golitzin.shtml

He was in his first semester of teaching and had trouble with connecting with the class.  But I found him pretty facinating...learned a great deal in that course.

Father Lambeck taugh Islam.  He scared the hell out of me.  LOL.  I had him for Buddhism as well. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

When I was attending Marquette you only earned 2 credits for each theology course. I wound up taking 8 classes one with Karl Rahner who was a visiting professor at the time, obtaining a minor in theology. Just to put things in perspective I double majored in Chemistry and Biology; and double minored in Theology and Philosophy. I had to to take one extra semester to complete all my course work, graduating in December '69. It was an interesting time to be at Marquette. There were post Vatican II folks who wanted to change everything and then here were you Pre-Vatican II Stalwarts who wanted to change nothing.

I'll bet that was an interesting time in many ways. 

[GGGG]

Yes Chicos...Lambeck.  Thank you.  He was really old.

[mu03eng]

The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.

-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe

Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Father Lambeck taugh Islam.  He scared the hell out of me.  LOL.  I had him for Buddhism as well. 

I had Fr Lambeck for Buddhism in 1998 or 1999.  Dude was old as a turtle.  Rumor had it, he had a stroke mid semester, missed 1 class, and was back.  I had him for Christian Theology too (the intro class was Christian, not Catholic theology).

[Hards Alumni]

The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.

-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe

Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.

A lot of atheists would disagree with you.  They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.

[Lennys Tap]

A lot of atheists would disagree with you.  They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.

Almost everybody, to one degree or another, fears that possibility. Holding it as an "article of faith" seems awfully grim.

[mu03eng]

A lot of atheists would disagree with you.  They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.

The great unknown might be literally nothing so it jives with atheists.

[RawdogDX]

The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.

-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe

Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.

Ok, then Seinfeld and Sex and the City are the same, Pizza is the same as Lasagna, & Megan Fox is the same as Glenn Close. 

[Hards Alumni]

Ok, then Seinfeld and Sex and the City are the same, Pizza is the same as Lasagna, & Megan Fox is the same as Glenn Close. 

Boom, roasted!