Malcom Moore has MU in his final 4

[Pakuni]

Yeah, I get it.  I'm old school and believe in the stability of going after 4 year players.  It's what most of the great programs do, still to this day.

Huh? What?
Most great programs go after four-year players?

Kansas?
You mean like Xavier Henry, Cole Aldrich, Julian Wright, Mario Chalmers and Darrell Arthur?

UNC goes after four-year players?
Like Brandon Wright, Marvin Williams, Ty Lawson, Ed Davis, Vince Carter, Rasheed Wallace and some dude named Jordan?

UCLA goes after four-year players?
Like Kevin Love, J'rue Holiday and Jordan Farmar?

Stanford (your shining example of all that is great in collegs sports) goes after four-year players?
Like the Lopez twins, Josh Childress, the Collins twins and Casey Jacobsen?

And please recognize, these programs go after these kids knowing full well they'll only be around for two years, maybe three at best. I mean, was Ben Howland really surprised that Kevin Love didn't stick around four years? Was Roy Williams shocked - shocked! - that Marvin Williams didn't stick around for a UNC degree? Did Trent Johnson believe a couple of talented 7-footers would do four years at Stanford when he recruited the Lopezes?
Don't feed us this bunk about these schools going after four-year players. They go after the best players they can get, just like Buzz Williams is doing.

Seriously, besides your ongoing obsession with how things appear to our friends to the west (and on obscure blogs), what's the difference to a program's stability between a kid that goes to JUCO for 1-2 years and then comes to Marquette and one who arrives on campus as a freshman and stays 1-2 years?
How does the likes of Jimmy Butler, DJO and Joe Fulce create a less stable environment at MU than Kevin Love, Jordan Farmar and J'rue Holiday at UCLA?
Please explain.

[rocky_warrior]

Ah....I wondered how this got to 4 pages so fast - figured we must have landed the kid.  But now I see it's turned into the ever popular "JUCO vs. 4 year player" debate.  Without reading, let me guess, some are worried we're turning into a team like Huggins had at Cincinnati, and others are arguing that our JUCOs are actually graduating, and not thugs like Cincy had.

I'd also guess a certain poster has probably brought up that Deane and Crean did not have the JUCO leniency that Buzz is getting.

Did I miss anything?

[nathanziarek]

Just another thread that has nothing to do with its title. It's funny how often you can trace the derailing to one member of this board.

At least I got to read "Keep the change!", which is very, very funny. 

[d6]

Seriously, besides your ongoing obsession with how things appear to our friends to the west (and on obscure blogs), what's the difference to a program's stability between a kid that goes to JUCO for 1-2 years and then comes to Marquette and one who arrives on campus as a freshman and stays 1-2 years?
How does the likes of Jimmy Butler, DJO and Joe Fulce create a less stable environment at MU than Kevin Love, Jordan Farmar and J'rue Holiday at UCLA?
Please explain.
[/quote]

To build more on this point, the difference is that guys like DJO and Jimmy Butler end up being 4 year college players, and with that have the potential to bring more maturity (and perhaps stability) to a team.  Assuming we are dealing with solid kids, which has been the case, I'd much rather have a 2 or 3 year player that has had the extra year or two to mature, work on academics, assimilate into the college environment, then a player who is looking to be one and done.  

I really don't understand or follow this mythical belief that these top programs recruit 4 year players.  They recruit players that will be potential lottery picks after one or two years.  Yet, there is no howling at the moon that this creates instability.  Would people be as upset with Buzz if he landed a John Wall-type or even Gordon Heyward-type, knowing he'd create "instability" after a year or two.......

[GGGG]

Yes - that is exactly what I am saying.  At present..this very moment..Marquette is the better program - at least as far as top talent, 4 and 5 star recruits seem to think.  I like MU's chances against UW the next 4 years - I'd bet money we go 3-1, maybe 4-0 over the next 4 years.  I find our roster far more talented.  It is true that during the Tom Crean years, Bo Ryan did compile a better record against MU - but the game has changed now...different coach at the helm, and through the work of Tom Crean raising the profile of the program..and handing the keys off to Buzz..I'd say we are the better program.

IOW we have the *potential* to be the better program.  Gotta win first.

[NavinRJohnson]

Would people be as upset with Buzz if he landed a John Wall-type or even Gordon Heyward-type, knowing he'd create "instability" after a year or two.......

I can think of a couple guys here who would feign indignation over just that, assuming Buzz Williams is the coach.

[NersEllenson]

IOW we have the *potential* to be the better program.  Gotta win first.

Good point..I'm not going to get into the ridiculous debate with Chico's on this...as he's not coming down from his indignation ledge of how MU is continuing to recruit JUCO's and how UW is a superior program.

One question I would ask:  At present, would you trade positions with a UW fan?  Meaning, do you feel UW is on a higher trajectory at present, than MU?  Or, if you could...would you switch allegiances to become a UW fan at present - assuming you could erase all memory of your Marquette bias?

[GGGG]

Good point..I'm not going to get into the ridiculous debate with Chico's on this...as he's not coming down from his indignation ledge of how MU is continuing to recruit JUCO's and how UW is a superior program.

One question I would ask:  At present, would you trade positions with a UW fan?  Meaning, do you feel UW is on a higher trajectory at present, than MU?  Or, if you could...would you switch allegiances to become a UW fan at present - assuming you could erase all memory of your Marquette bias?

I'm sorry I can't really even think that way.  I'm a fan of whom I am a fan of regardless of results.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pakuni, are you being serious or did the teal button not work on the keyboard today out there in Chicago?


Those players were HIGH SCHOOL players that went into those programs with 4 years of eligibility.  JUCOs have, at most, 3 years and usually only two years.

So your examples are beyond silly.  Show me the abundance of JUCOs that UCLA, DUKE, UNC, Stanford, etc have recruited in the last two decades....that's what I said.  The great programs don't do it. 

[Blackhat]

You're not against JUCOs, just "too many" jucos?

I admire your principled ethics Chicos.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Good point..I'm not going to get into the ridiculous debate with Chico's on this...as he's not coming down from his indignation ledge of how MU is continuing to recruit JUCO's and how UW is a superior program.

Translation....you know you can't defend your comments on anything results driven and are going solely based on what you think recruiting gurus say our guys will do.  Face it, UW-madison has had a better program than us the last decade...PERIOD.  It is what it is.  There is zero debate on it.

That doesn't mean it won't change this year, the next 10 years.  I sure as hell hope it does change.  But back to original point, somehow they've managed to be the best program in the state and one of the best in the country without going after JUCOs.  I'm old school.  I prefer we go after high school kids that will be here for their entire college basketball career.  Now, if they leave early, they leave early. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're not against JUCOs, just "too many" jucos?

I admire your principled ethics Chicos.

Yup.  And what does ethics have to do with it?   I want kids here for four years.  Inserting one every few years from a JUCO rank isn't that big a deal.  When you have about 25% of your roster and looking to add more, that's a lot of turnover happening in a short period of time.

Ethics?  You'll have to explain where that one came from, other than left field.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ah....I wondered how this got to 4 pages so fast - figured we must have landed the kid.  But now I see it's turned into the ever popular "JUCO vs. 4 year player" debate.  Without reading, let me guess, some are worried we're turning into a team like Huggins had at Cincinnati, and others are arguing that our JUCOs are actually graduating, and not thugs like Cincy had.

I'd also guess a certain poster has probably brought up that Deane and Crean did not have the JUCO leniency that Buzz is getting.

Did I miss anything?

Nope. You got it.

The impending "maybe IU should take JUCOS, it would help them" portion of the debate is scheduled for this afternoon, followed by the ever popular Ners vs Marquette84 showdown, which usually degenerates into some sort of Crean vs Buzz man-love contest.

Stay tuned!

[bilsu]

Buzz had to win right away to keep the wolves from his door. Last year we were 22-12. Imagine what our record would have been without Butler, DJO, Buyckes and Fulce. Sure they would have been replaced by someone, but I suspect it with be with players with less talent and experience. As far as UW, I believe over the next four years they will win as many, if not more games than MU. MU still has a hugh size disadvantage. Sure our 6 guards are better than their 6 guards (if they even have that many), but you do not play 6 guards. They still have the better front line and I Suspect this will continue. Our front line will be more athletic, but shorter than UW's. As far as Juco's I think you recruit them, if you can project them being a starter at least one year. If they are not good enough to start, than you should be looking at a four year player.

[Ready2Fly]

Are you really telling me the best program in Wisconsin ISN'T Wisconsin-madison at the moment?

Please explain, this ought to be good.

Do you want to use 1 year, 5 year, 10 year span?   Overall is it a better program?  Nope.  Currently is it a better program.  A, yes.  Not by much, but I'd love for you to show me where it isn't.

12 consecutive NCAA berths to MU's 5 straight.....commanding lead by Wisconsin

NCAA wins last decade...UW with big advantage

Each has a Final Four the last decade....even

3 Big Ten championships to 1 C-USA championship....Wisconsin big lead

Head to head....UW has lead over us last decade


Exactly what are you using, other than very gold colored glasses, to imply they aren't the top program in the state currently until someone replaces them?  Please explain

Is this evidence of some sort of warped version of Stockholm syndrome?  Any psychologists/psychiatrists out there?

[Blackhat]

I don't know Chicos I thought you were against JUCOs because of a moral/life perspective stand, now it's all about because you want 4 year guys...I guess I'm confused as your arguments change frequently to serve your purpose. 

Your post from last Sept:

"We all bring bias to our life perspective based on the life we live.  Your perspective is important.

Equally, my bias on JUCOs comes from UNLV, Oklahoma under Tubbs, USC, etc.  They were JUCO central growing up and issues followed them off the court all the time.  Amazing athletes, they won a lot but many issues.    Plus here in California we have a crapload of JUCOs with high profile athletic programs.  Unfortunately a considerable amount of bad press has followed many of these local programs.   My bias is unfair, but I readily admit it." 

[NersEllenson]

Translation....you know you can't defend your comments on anything results driven and are going solely based on what you think recruiting gurus say our guys will do.  Face it, UW-madison has had a better program than us the last decade...PERIOD.  It is what it is.  There is zero debate on it.

That doesn't mean it won't change this year, the next 10 years.  I sure as hell hope it does change.  But back to original point, somehow they've managed to be the best program in the state and one of the best in the country without going after JUCOs.  I'm old school.  I prefer we go after high school kids that will be here for their entire college basketball career.  Now, if they leave early, they leave early. 

Sorry dude..but UW has recruited JUCO's - see Zach Morley..several years back 2002-2003.  Top programs use JUCO's.  Get over it.  And you are completely correct that Bo Ryan did a better job at UW during the 1999-2008 timeframe, than did Tom Crean at Marquette.  But, thankfully we are in a new era, with a better coach, that recruits better talent.  I like the trajectory of the MU program more than the UW program...end of story.

[goodgreatgrand]

  I like the trajectory of the MU program more than the UW program...end of story.

And I like the trajectory of the B10 more than the BE, especially after hearing Delany's last comments. Without a stable conference, it's tough for a program to even have a trajectory.

[GOMU1104]

UW recruited 2010 JUCO G Lazeric Jones from John Logan JC in Illinois. He had an official visit scheduled for UW in December, but committed to UCLA before he took the visit.

[NavinRJohnson]

UW recruited 2010 JUCO G Lazeric Jones from John Logan JC in Illinois. He had an official visit scheduled for UW in December, but committed to UCLA before he took the visit.

How can that be? UCLA is a top tier program. They don't dip into the JUCO ranks.  

[Blackhat]

UCLA is going to crumble from instability.

[4everwarriors]

Elliot Spitzer doesn't post on this board, aina hey?

[NavinRJohnson]

GASP! Instability! Instability!


One of the players most scouted by Indiana out in Las Vegas last week was junior college forward Robert Goff. The 6-foot-9, 240-pound player is from Indianapolis and has quickly returned to the Hoosier recruiting radar. Now check out our series of video clips taken of the former Broad Ripple forward at the All-America Juco Showcase last week.

http://indiana.rivals.com/

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, are you being serious or did the teal button not work on the keyboard today out there in Chicago?

Your computer has a teal button? I can't find mine, but maybe they make them different for us Midwesterners.

Anyhow, fine work changing the subject and failing to address my questions. I'll try again.

You stated that these "great" programs recruit four-year players and offered up some nonsense about it being better for stability. I pointed out how absurd that statement is. In reality, those programs frequently recruit kids they know have absolutely no interest in sticking around for four years, much less earning a college degree.

The truth of the matter is, you don't give a rat's a-- about stability.  If you did, you would have complained about all the transfers and coaching defections under the previous coach. You didn't.
Or, it seems, whether a kid graduates. If you did, you wouldn't be holding up UCLA and UNC as examples of how it should be done.

What you do care about is perception, and the stigma you choose to attach to JUCO kids. Never mind the fact that none of the JUCOs brought to MU by Buzz Williams - or Tom Crean, for that matter - did anything to validate that stigma. Rather than welcome that, you continue to embrace the stigma. Fine. Your choice.

That said, I can't understand how you have such moral indignation over recruiting JUCOs, yet seem to be OK with Ben Howland, Bill Self, Roy Williams, etc., recruiting kids who make a mockery of the entire student-athlete concept. These guys know full well that the top 10-type players they are bringing to their universities have no interest in academics or getting a diploma. They're just there to sharpen their basketball skills for a year or two before moving on to the pros.
Why, in your mind, is this OK? But bringing in a kid who actually will attend college for four years and possibly even earn a degree ... this is bad?
Explain that to me.

[Lennys Tap]

Your computer has a teal button? I can't find mine, but maybe they make them different for us Midwesterners.

Anyhow, fine work changing the subject and failing to address my questions. I'll try again.

You stated that these "great" programs recruit four-year players and offered up some nonsense about it being better for stability. I pointed out how absurd that statement is. In reality, those programs frequently recruit kids they know have absolutely no interest in sticking around for four years, much less earning a college degree.

The truth of the matter is, you don't give a rat's a-- about stability.  If you did, you would have complained about all the transfers and coaching defections under the previous coach. You didn't.
Or, it seems, whether a kid graduates. If you did, you wouldn't be holding up UCLA and UNC as examples of how it should be done.

What you do care about is perception, and the stigma you choose to attach to JUCO kids. Never mind the fact that none of the JUCOs brought to MU by Buzz Williams - or Tom Crean, for that matter - did anything to validate that stigma. Rather than welcome that, you continue to embrace the stigma. Fine. Your choice.

That said, I can't understand how you have such moral indignation over recruiting JUCOs, yet seem to be OK with Ben Howland, Bill Self, Roy Williams, etc., recruiting kids who make a mockery of the entire student-athlete concept. These guys know full well that the top 10-type players they are bringing to their universities have no interest in academics or getting a diploma. They're just there to sharpen their basketball skills for a year or two before moving on to the pros.
Why, in your mind, is this OK? But bringing in a kid who actually will attend college for four years and possibly even earn a degree ... this is bad?
Explain that to me.

Amen.