Malcom Moore has MU in his final 4

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't mind all of the JUCO players given Buzz's track record with these guys so far.

To be fair to Chico's however, if 3 years ago, somebody said our roster would have 5 JUCOS on it, I don't think people would have been excited.

Sometimes you have to let things develop before you can judge.

In this case, so far, so good.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't mind all of the JUCO players given Buzz's track record with these guys so far.

To be fair to Chico's however, if 3 years ago, somebody said our roster would have 5 JUCOS on it, I don't think people would have been excited.

Sometimes you have to let things develop before you can judge.

In this case, so far, so good.

If we had 5 2 year juco players who performed like Lott, Kinsella or even MJax, you're right that people wouldn't be excited. When you have three 3 year players and two of them are potential NBA guys it's a different story. When your two 2 year jucos include a 1st team AA and a national POY, ditto.

You're at least consistant (albeit exasperating) in your non judgemental approach. Chicos eschews any positive judgements until year 6 yet is/was hypercritical from day one. To me, that's not the modus operandi of one reserving judgement.

[kmwtrucks]

Over his last 15 games he scored 20pts per game and shot .654 from the field.  He also made 6 FT's per game. I think at the PF slot he looks solid, as long as he is playing with a true center and Otule would be in his class.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You're at least consistant (albeit exasperating) in your non judgemental approach.

That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.

Don't be going all soft on me Lenny.

[GGGG]

Recruit high school kids to bring more "stability" to the program? Odartey Blankston, Ron Howard, Kevin Menard, "Manchild" Mathews, Carlton Christian, Brandon Bell, Dameon Mason, Ryan Amoroso, Karon Bradley, Matt Mortenson, Niv Berkowitz, Trevor Mbakwe, Scott Christopherson, Yous Mbao, Jeronne Maymon, Brett Roseboro and even the great D Wade are some examples of the "stability" brought to MU's program by high school recruits in just the last 8-9 years. Conversely, I think every one of our JC's/tranfers over that span  has fulfilled his eligibility and graduated. But why let the facts get in the way of a good argument?

Yeah, I have to agree with the intent behind this.  Of course it is preferable to have a four-year player over a three year player...and a three year player over a two year player...IF everything goes right.

However, the chances of a flame out are much higher for a HS guy than a JC guy.  JCs get two years away from home to work on their academics.  They get two years to prove that their HS game can work at another level.  I have absolutely no problem with picking up a top-level JC guy in every class.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't mind all of the JUCO players given Buzz's track record with these guys so far.

To be fair to Chico's however, if 3 years ago, somebody said our roster would have 5 JUCOS on it, I don't think people would have been excited.

Sometimes you have to let things develop before you can judge.

In this case, so far, so good.

Yeah, I get it.  I'm old school and believe in the stability of going after 4 year players.  It's what most of the great programs do, still to this day.

Partly it's because of the stigma that goes with it, I won't deny it.  Programs that were shady as hell built themselves on the backs of JUCOs...Oklahoma, UNLV, USC, etc, etc.  No doubt in my mind that clouds my view, I readily admit it, but when I see top level teams now rarely dip into the JUCO ranks it only reinforces to me that we should be doing the same thing.

I think JUCOJUNCTION said it pretty well about UCLA when they said "The UCLA Bruins do not spend much time recruiting junior college players. But Ben Howland's team has dipped into the the junior college ranks for a player."    There's a reason why they don't and only go there in absolute need.

Let's look at it from a different perspective...I hope we get to a point where we are consistently getting top high school talent that a JUCO option is few and far between.  It will mean we are winning with 4 year players, don't have needs that require a short term solution.

Maybe the plan is to become a JUCO destination point.  That would be sad in my view, but people here obviously have a different points of view. 

Lenny brings up examples of transfers, fair enough.  I guess he'll have to help me understand why the top programs in this country, or even the top program in the state of Wisconsin, rarely go after JUCOs.  Maybe they are doing it wrong, I don't know.

[Canadian Dimes]

wow how dense...sure the top programs in the country typicall only get 4 year HS kids....but last I checked we were not one of the top programs in the country.  if buzz wants to build us to that level and all those top hS kids are going to UNC etc. then getting the top Juco players in the interim sounds like one hell of a good plan, especially given his contacts!! 

if Mu continues to win like they have under buzz his ability to recruit only increases, until then he needs to recruit his strenghts.  2 years ago very few people outside the juco ranks and on the eastern half of the country knew who buzz williams was.. that is quickly changing.

[tower912]

It would be nice to only recruit from high schools, to have every player stay 4 years, (unless of course they get tired of basketball and only want to stay at the college for the academics ) to never have a transfer, and to have to keep the 4 star recruits away with a stick, as we only accept 5 star recruits.   Until that day, Buzz has to put the best team he can on the floor any way he can.   Last year, because of transfers, injuries, and slow development, that meant winning with a ridiculously short, shallow team.   Coach Williams stated goal is to have thirteen high major players on his team.    Because of his background and contacts, right now, that means taking the creme de la creme of the JUCO world.     So far, his 'mistakes' include three high schoolers and a JUCO.   Cut the man some slack until he starts losing games or it becomes a pattern that the kids who actually get to campus show poor character.   

[NersEllenson]

Lenny brings up examples of transfers, fair enough.  I guess he'll have to help me understand why the top programs in this country, or even the top program in the state of Wisconsin, rarely go after JUCOs.  Maybe they are doing it wrong, I don't know.

Did you really just imply the top program in Wisconsin is..Wisconsin?  You were given..I believe by Lenny..about 7 schools that finished in last year's top 10 who had JUCO's on their roster...so yes, "top programs" do go after JUCO's.  It's been a rough week for you Chicos - but you are really pretty much going it alone on this one - probably ought to pull up the anchor and sail on, on this topic.

I really hope you and 84 start to look for the positives in the current MU program, as opposed to constantly looking for negatives - many of which don't exist.  We already had 84 on this week telling us all how we hired Scott Monarch as a means to get Jimmy Butler..even though Buzz's relationship with Monarch goes alot farther back, than does/did Monarch's relationship with Jimmy Butler.

[bilsu]

MU's best team ever 75-76 had two juco starters and four top 25 high school players.
Walton JC
Whitehead JC
Ellis
Tatum
Lee
Toone

All played some in NBA. MU needs to go where ever the talent is.

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah, I get it.  I'm old school and believe in the stability of going after 4 year players.  It's what most of the great programs do, still to this day.

Partly it's because of the stigma that goes with it, I won't deny it.  Programs that were shady as hell built themselves on the backs of JUCOs...Oklahoma, UNLV, USC, etc, etc.  No doubt in my mind that clouds my view, I readily admit it, but when I see top level teams now rarely dip into the JUCO ranks it only reinforces to me that we should be doing the same thing.

I think JUCOJUNCTION said it pretty well about UCLA when they said "The UCLA Bruins do not spend much time recruiting junior college players. But Ben Howland's team has dipped into the the junior college ranks for a player."    There's a reason why they don't and only go there in absolute need.

Let's look at it from a different perspective...I hope we get to a point where we are consistently getting top high school talent that a JUCO option is few and far between.  It will mean we are winning with 4 year players, don't have needs that require a short term solution.

Maybe the plan is to become a JUCO destination point.  That would be sad in my view, but people here obviously have a different points of view. 

Lenny brings up examples of transfers, fair enough.  I guess he'll have to help me understand why the top programs in this country, or even the top program in the state of Wisconsin, rarely go after JUCOs.  Maybe they are doing it wrong, I don't know.

Actually I think someone pointed out that 7 of the top 10 teams in the country last year had 1 or more JUCOS, so it's not like the top teams aren't looking. The plain truth is there's just not enough good JUCO players to go around. Lest we forget, Jamil Lott and Marcus Jackson arrived at MU as JUCO All Americans and neither were exactly stalwarts at the D1 level. Either Buzz knows how to pick the good ones or he knows some people who can.

On the "old school" issue, lighten up. Embrace change. Don't be so rigid

[Dawson Rental]

Id rather have a 6'6" ish 3-4 and a legit big than another guard and a legit big in a recruiting class of 2 players.  If we got this guy or someone with similar size it doesn't mean that all hope is lost to land a center

No, but it probabily means we've given up on getting either Dawson or Thompson.

[Dawson Rental]

Buzz has hit on most of his JUCO recruits in terms of character (not to mention most have had a lot of basketball talent).  

Lets be real though, JUCOs can be more risky as they couldn't cut it in high school for whatever reason but once they get to a stable environment at MU most have thrived thus far.

If Buzz starts recruiting more character misses like M. Clark and turns this into a Cincy type show then yes Cottingham should tell him to be more selective.  Until that happens I'm not ready to cut off the JUCO pipeline, in fact I get more pride in seeing these types of kids succeed academically at MU.

I'm sorry, didn't Buzz pull Clark's scholarship, and I'm not aware of MU becoming a Cincy type situation, so what the heck are you talking about?????

[Dawson Rental]

Actually, MU's Jucos players have been a very stable bunch, going back to Crean. IIRC, not one has left the program and the only one having some sort of off the court issue was Trend Blackledge.

Chicos, its acutually been the traditional high-school player that has burned MU... (See Maymon, Blankston, Mbakwe, etc.)

BINGO!

[NCMUFan]

Im fine with your comment except for your use of the word "intelligent." Let's not dress-up the issue...an overwhelming percentage of college basketball players are anything but intelligent (especially kids that were academically ineligible out of h.s. and had to take the juco route).

I think this is an incorrect statement.  The student/athletes may have come from bad environments, been slackers in HS, underachievers, did not take their studying seriously.  But that does not make themselves unintelligent.  If they try and apply themselves and get in a good learning environment and develop discipline and good study skills they can get good grades.  They always had the same amount of intelligence.  

[Blackhat]

I'm sorry, didn't Buzz pull Clark's scholarship, and I'm not aware of MU becoming a Cincy type situation, so what the heck are you talking about?????

Learn to read.

[Knight Commission]

Yeah, it sucks getting the best JUCO player every year. Please stop exploiting a market inefficiency that brings wins and excitement to the Bradley Center! Oh the horror!

What does Jerry Tarkanian, Bobby Huggins, and Buzz Williams have in common?

[NCMUFan]

What does Jerry Tarkanian, Bobby Huggins, and Buzz Williams have in common?

They are/were basketball coaches.

[Lennys Tap]

What does Jerry Tarkanian, Bobby Huggins, and Buzz Williams have in common?

1.They've all forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know.

2.They're not pompous, self righteous know-it-alls.

3. They know enough about basic English usage to distinguish between singular and plural (does vs do).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

[ChicosBailBonds]

wow how dense...sure the top programs in the country typicall only get 4 year HS kids....but last I checked we were not one of the top programs in the country.  if buzz wants to build us to that level and all those top hS kids are going to UNC etc. then getting the top Juco players in the interim sounds like one hell of a good plan, especially given his contacts!! 

if Mu continues to win like they have under buzz his ability to recruit only increases, until then he needs to recruit his strenghts.  2 years ago very few people outside the juco ranks and on the eastern half of the country knew who buzz williams was.. that is quickly changing.

So the only way to get their is through JUCOs?  Interesting....I look at some of the other top programs in the country who go there and didn't go that route. One of them is 90 miles west of us, but I defer...only way to get there is via JUCOs.

Speaking of dense Robby, is that recession over yet?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually I think someone pointed out that 7 of the top 10 teams in the country last year had 1 or more JUCOS, so it's not like the top teams aren't looking. The plain truth is there's just not enough good JUCO players to go around. Lest we forget, Jamil Lott and Marcus Jackson arrived at MU as JUCO All Americans and neither were exactly stalwarts at the D1 level. Either Buzz knows how to pick the good ones or he knows some people who can.

On the "old school" issue, lighten up. Embrace change. Don't be so rigid

I said CONSISTENTLY going after JUCOs, not one year here and there (I gave the UCLA example where they have had 2 in the last decade). 

I'm experiencing "change" since 2008...it sucks.  KEEP THE CHANGE.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos you like to talk, I get that but you might want to slow down from time to time.  

70% of the top 10 schools in 2009-2010 in college basketball are schools that recruit JUCOs  and either had JUCOs on the active roster or in their 2011 recruiting class.

3.WVU
5.Kentucky
6.Kansas
7.Kansas State
8.Syracuse
9.Tennessee
10. Baylor

This doesn't even take into account Prep school players which most of those teams listed have an abundance of.  

You obviously didn't read my statement that said don't give me examples where it happens once in awhile....like the UCLA example.

That being said, quite a list.  I remember the day when we would cringe at being compared to the tactics that Kentucky, Tennessee, Kansas State, WVU \ Thuggins, employed.   Now, everything is cool...as long as we're winning everything is cool.

You'll forgive me Stonecold for wanting to be compared to programs that do it a little differently...Duke, UCLA, Stanford, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Did you really just imply the top program in Wisconsin is..Wisconsin?  You were given..I believe by Lenny..about 7 schools that finished in last year's top 10 who had JUCO's on their roster...so yes, "top programs" do go after JUCO's.  It's been a rough week for you Chicos - but you are really pretty much going it alone on this one - probably ought to pull up the anchor and sail on, on this topic.

Are you really telling me the best program in Wisconsin ISN'T Wisconsin-madison at the moment?

Please explain, this ought to be good.

Do you want to use 1 year, 5 year, 10 year span?   Overall is it a better program?  Nope.  Currently is it a better program.  A, yes.  Not by much, but I'd love for you to show me where it isn't.

12 consecutive NCAA berths to MU's 5 straight.....commanding lead by Wisconsin

NCAA wins last decade...UW with big advantage

Each has a Final Four the last decade....even

3 Big Ten championships to 1 C-USA championship....Wisconsin big lead

Head to head....UW has lead over us last decade


Exactly what are you using, other than very gold colored glasses, to imply they aren't the top program in the state currently until someone replaces them?  Please explain

[NersEllenson]

Are you really telling me the best program in Wisconsin ISN'T Wisconsin-madison at the moment?

Exactly what are you using, other than very gold colored glasses, to imply they aren't the top program in the state currently until someone replaces them?  Please explain

Yes - that is exactly what I am saying.  At present..this very moment..Marquette is the better program - at least as far as top talent, 4 and 5 star recruits seem to think.  I like MU's chances against UW the next 4 years - I'd bet money we go 3-1, maybe 4-0 over the next 4 years.  I find our roster far more talented.  It is true that during the Tom Crean years, Bo Ryan did compile a better record against MU - but the game has changed now...different coach at the helm, and through the work of Tom Crean raising the profile of the program..and handing the keys off to Buzz..I'd say we are the better program.

Just embrace what is going on Chicos..why nitpick if we bring in 1 JUCO per year?  Who knows..we might not even take Malcom Moore...and sorry buddy but Bo Ryan has brought in JUCO's..perhaps you recall Zach Morley?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes - that is exactly what I am saying.  At present..this very moment..Marquette is the better program - at least as far as top talent, 4 and 5 star recruits seem to think. 

LOL

OK.  Well, an impartial observer doesn't base how good a program is based on what the stars are by their names before they've played a game.  It's called doing it on the court.  Doesn't make me happy to say it, but UW-madison has had the better program the last decade.  The good news is that both programs have been successful, so no big deal, but they have been better in every possible category (regular season, post season, head to head).  It is what it is.  You don't suddenly become a better program because you're recruits have more stars by them, you have to do it on the court and you have to do it consistently over time.  That's how the real world works.

The future is very bright at MU.  A lot of good players.  The Big East didn't get dissolved (yet, Thank God)...we should do well in the coming years.  I'll remain a happy camper if we keep winning, keep graduating players, stay out of any trouble, (honor commitments) and do things the right way.