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Author Topic: Otule red-shirting, but practicing  (Read 10858 times)

tower912

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Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« on: February 09, 2010, 08:37:50 AM »
Back to Chris Otule.    Buzz said he practiced on Monday, that his mere presence in practice helps the team, but he is definitely red-shirting.    He also praised the progress of Cadougan and Ewill, that he would like to find them more minutes, but that their practice contributions make the team better.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

radome

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 08:43:12 AM »
A bit beyond my understanding of Buzz' plans but it would seem that a redshirt for Yous at somepoint would be beneficial to separate him from Otule now.  The missing piece is, of course, what might be in the recruiting pipeline. 

Even more important, there is simply doing the right thing for Yous as a muturing adult and college student.  Nevertheless, as contributor to the team, a redshirt might help.

thanooj

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 08:45:43 AM »
What is the prognosis on Yous?  When is he back getting minutes?  Having those two practice against each other might help.
I am happy to have Chris redshirt.  I think he could be pretty good in three years.  Better than Burke, as good as Barro.  maybe even better as a super senior.
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ErickJD08

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 08:54:32 AM »
What is the prognosis on Yous?  When is he back getting minutes?  Having those two practice against each other might help.
I am happy to have Chris redshirt.  I think he could be pretty good in three years.  Better than Burke, as good as Barro.  maybe even better as a super senior.

I would rather have my players where backpacks with inflatable arms to simulate a tall person... that's just me.
Wanna learn how to say "@#(@# (@*" in a dozen languages... go to Professor Crass www.professorcrass.com

NotAnAlum

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 08:55:05 AM »
I agree its early to talk about Yous but I beleive he does need a redshirt year if he is to really help us.  I know Buzz wants to play each year to win but it might be wise to plan to redshirt Yous next year betting that Otule, E Will and Crowder can provide you enough in the low post.  If Otule were to get injuried again you could pull the redshirt on Yous.  If that were to happen in my mind that would the the 3rd strike on Otule and you'd have to accept the fact that his body can not support college hoops.

Marquette84

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Otule
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 08:55:41 AM »
Since the last thread kind of got away from Otule, I wanted to follow up on the title of the thread.   I think there was a misstatement in terms of saying that Otule is definitely going to redshirt.

My understanding (after reviewing the NCAA bylaws) is that neither Buzz nor Otule can decide if he's going to redshirt.  Because Chris appeared in a game this season, MU can only apply for a Medical Hardship Waiver.  The waivers are administered by each conference--not the NCAA--so in this case it will be up up to the Big East Conference to grant it.

If the conference does not grant the waiver, MU can appeal the decision to the NCAA.

The rules have been outlined before--but in general the injury must meet three requirements:
a) Occur in the 1st half of the season.
b) The player must have played in fewer than 30% of the games played.
c) The injury must be season ending (certified by doctors--not coaches).

Its this third requirement which could cause MU issues.  It becomes an ethical issue for the doctors.   If MU's team physicians think that Otule is not medically able to play, then no problem.   

On the other hand, with similar injuries, Kinsella and James were cleared to play within the same season (James inside one month).  The physicians may not be willing to sign off on Otule's incapacitation based on medical issues.   

There is no waiver simply because a player has lost so much time he'll never catch up. 

One last issue--someone might ask why this didn't apply with Cadougan.  The fundamental difference is that Otule played in a game this season, Cadougan did not.  Therefore, MU could make a unilateral decision in Cadougan's case, while they can only apply for a waiver with Otule.

Benny B

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 08:56:37 AM »
Meh.

I'm worn out on this whole "we need a legitimate big to compete" and "when will Yous and Chris become a presence" to even care about red-shirting Chris or Yous or both.  When Chris is ready to come back, I'll be the first one to my feet when he checks in.  When Yous makes his first game FG, I'll be the first one to my knees in prayer.

Until then, I'm just going to watch our small team continually harass everyone else.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

thanooj

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 08:58:28 AM »
Meh.

I'm worn out on this whole "we need a legitimate big to compete" and "when will Yous and Chris become a presence" to even care about red-shirting Chris or Yous or both.  When Chris is ready to come back, I'll be the first one to my feet when he checks in.  When Yous makes his first game FG, I'll be the first one to my knees in prayer.

Until then, I'm just going to watch our small team continually harass everyone else.

You just fired me up!  GO WARRIORS!!!!!!
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NersEllenson

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 09:05:00 AM »
As Buzz said in his radio show, the current offensive philosophy is to keep the defense "spinning."  I think that paints a very clear picture to his team, what they are to do offensively - and it results in the ball movement, penetrate and dish game we've become so adept at.  This really is a fun basketball team to watch.

Hopefully Otule can make a big impact for us next season.  From what we saw early this season, he had improved by leaps and bounds over his freshman year.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

MU B2002

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 09:07:46 AM »
As Buzz said in his radio show, the current offensive philosophy is to keep the defense "spinning."  I think that paints a very clear picture to his team, what they are to do offensively - and it results in the ball movement, penetrate and dish game we've become so adept at.  This really is a fun basketball team to watch.


The ball movement around the perimeter and in and out of the paint has been amazing at times the last few games.
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GOO

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 10:01:35 AM »
I would have Yous play next year.  If Otule makes it through the year, then have Yous redshirt in two years - we will then have Otule, Jae, and EWill and probably another recruit or two in two years.

radome

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 10:16:21 AM »
My understanding (after reviewing the NCAA bylaws) is that neither Buzz nor Otule can decide if he's going to redshirt.  Because Chris appeared in a game this season, MU can only apply for a Medical Hardship Waiver.  The waivers are administered by each conference--not the NCAA--so in this case it will be up up to the Big East Conference to grant it.
I hear you, but don't you think that Buzz is implying that the redshirt is likely to be granted?  I know it is the NCAA so any outcome is possible but ...

GGGG

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Re: Otule
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 10:25:55 AM »
Since the last thread kind of got away from Otule, I wanted to follow up on the title of the thread.   I think there was a misstatement in terms of saying that Otule is definitely going to redshirt.

My understanding (after reviewing the NCAA bylaws) is that neither Buzz nor Otule can decide if he's going to redshirt.  Because Chris appeared in a game this season, MU can only apply for a Medical Hardship Waiver.  The waivers are administered by each conference--not the NCAA--so in this case it will be up up to the Big East Conference to grant it.

If the conference does not grant the waiver, MU can appeal the decision to the NCAA.

The rules have been outlined before--but in general the injury must meet three requirements:
a) Occur in the 1st half of the season.
b) The player must have played in fewer than 30% of the games played.
c) The injury must be season ending (certified by doctors--not coaches).

Its this third requirement which could cause MU issues.  It becomes an ethical issue for the doctors.   If MU's team physicians think that Otule is not medically able to play, then no problem.   

On the other hand, with similar injuries, Kinsella and James were cleared to play within the same season (James inside one month).  The physicians may not be willing to sign off on Otule's incapacitation based on medical issues. 


Not to mention that if he is healthy enough to practice, why isn't he healthy enough to play?

MU1980

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 10:48:11 AM »
The fact that he is able to practice makes it seem unlikelyto me that he will be granted his medical red-shirt.  As was previously mentioned, the injury must be season ending.  If he is practicing, then the injury is not season ending.  The NCAA has gotten stricter in their awarding of medical red-shirts in the past few years.  The fact that Buzz is publicly saying he is practicing, makes it even more difficult.  Would a Doctor be willing to say that he is physically able to practice, but not physically be able to compete in games?  Doubtful. 

4thAndState

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 12:11:03 PM »
The fact that he is able to practice makes it seem unlikelyto me that he will be granted his medical red-shirt.  As was previously mentioned, the injury must be season ending.  If he is practicing, then the injury is not season ending.  The NCAA has gotten stricter in their awarding of medical red-shirts in the past few years.  The fact that Buzz is publicly saying he is practicing, makes it even more difficult.  Would a Doctor be willing to say that he is physically able to practice, but not physically be able to compete in games?  Doubtful. 

I disagree. He has not played in a game since November -- far less than the 30% NCAA threshold. Plus, "practicing" with the team is relative -- he may just be going through lighter workouts, running certain sets and not getting up and down the court with those who play the games. I would be shocked if the NCAA did not grant CO a medical red shirt. He had a broken bone in his foot for crying out loud. Buzz is not naive enough to let practices thwart the red shirt. If CO was ready to play and contribute, I believe he'd be doing so -- "practice" or no practice.

Benny B

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 12:18:00 PM »
Would a Doctor be willing to say that he is physically able to practice, but not physically be able to compete in games?

I don't know if this is applicable to the current situation, but in answer to the question -- absolutely.  Practice is a controlled environment compared to a game setting.  When you're in the game, nobody knows what's going to happen, where you're going to be or whose foot gets stepped on.  In practice, you can control those types of things and mitigate further damage or injury by excluding an athlete from any activities that might be an undue risk.  I had an MCL injury from playing hockey back in the day and was cleared to skate and participate in some shooting drills two weeks before I was cleared for game participation.

Injuries aren't like pregnancies (you either are or you aren't).  There are various degrees of injury and various levels of clearance.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU1980

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 12:22:46 PM »
Good points by both 4th and State and Benny B.  I guess it really comes down to how healthy is he right now, how much is he practicing and what the doctors opinion is of whether he would be able to compete if Buzz wanted him to.  It really comes down to what the doctor has to say and how the Big East views what he has to say.  In the long run, it definitely makes sense to red-shirt him if possible. 

avid1010

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 01:56:35 PM »
The fact that he is able to practice makes it seem unlikelyto me that he will be granted his medical red-shirt.  As was previously mentioned, the injury must be season ending.  If he is practicing, then the injury is not season ending.  The NCAA has gotten stricter in their awarding of medical red-shirts in the past few years.  The fact that Buzz is publicly saying he is practicing, makes it even more difficult.  Would a Doctor be willing to say that he is physically able to practice, but not physically be able to compete in games?  Doubtful. 

I seriously hope (and doubt) that Buzz is that dumb.

MU1980

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 04:00:21 PM »
I do not in any way think Buzz is dumb.  I do know that there are many different NCAA rules and many of them change from year to year.  The medical red-shirt rule has become tougher than it used to be.  There is no way of knowing if Otule will be granted a medical red-shirt until the end of the year.  Of course Buzz and his staff have knowledge of the situation that we don't have, but it has happened to athletes before where they thought they would be granted a medical red-shirt and they weren't.  If the medical personnel have cleared him to practice with no restrictions, it could make the situation more complicated. 

Marquette84

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 04:22:35 PM »
I disagree. He has not played in a game since November -- far less than the 30% NCAA threshold.

I'm not sure how you can disagree by stating a point that nobody disagrees with.

Remember, there are THREE conditions that must be met for a medical redshirt.

1.  <30% of games
2.  First half of the season
3.  Season ending.

You apparently are stating your disagreement with point #3 by repeating point 1 & 2.  

We all agree on points 1 & 2.  There's no issue there.

The issue is point #3.   The injury must be season ending.  I may be wrong, but I don't think the spirit of the rule is to say that coaches can withhold otherwise healthy players recovering from injury in order to to preserve their future eligibility.  Either the injury is season ending, or its not.



Plus, "practicing" with the team is relative -- he may just be going through lighter workouts, running certain sets and not getting up and down the court with those who play the games.


That's fine.  But its the first week of February--hard to say that he won't be medically cleared for full-game situations sometime between now and Mid-March.

I would be shocked if the NCAA did not grant CO a medical red shirt. He had a broken bone in his foot for crying out loud.

And how long was it before James came back from the same injury?

Nothing the NCAA does should come as a surprise.  I wouldn't be shocked if this request was denied.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was approved.

But under the "letter of the law" Otule doesn't appear to be eligible for a medical redshirt.


Buzz is not naive enough to let practices thwart the red shirt. If CO was ready to play and contribute, I believe he'd be doing so -- "practice" or no practice.

The problem is that the rule doesn't say anything about being ready to participate.  The rule is whether you are medically incapacitated for the season.  
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 05:55:56 PM by Marquette84 »

wojosdojo

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2010, 05:18:11 PM »
I don't get how chris can redshirt if he played in a game(s) this year. If this medical redshirting was true then you'd think DJ would've taken one last year, so idk.

pillardean

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2010, 05:24:27 PM »
I don't get how chris can redshirt if he played in a game(s) this year. If this medical redshirting was true then you'd think DJ would've taken one last year, so idk.


He only missed 6.5 games.
Rules, previously stated...
Less than 30% of games, First half of season. 

No Way DJ get's medical.
Marquette University, Spring '08

bilsu

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »
Season ending just could mean he does not play in anymore games. You could certainly argue that even if he could physically run up and down the court, he is so behind that he is not ready to play. Given that he barely played the year before, I cannot imagine them not giving a red shirt. They would have to have some bone to pick with Buzz, MU or Otule not to grant it.

Daniel

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2010, 09:52:07 PM »
As has been stated, there are many. many degress of practice.  Perhaps, light workouts and practices are what the docs are prescribing for Chris at this point to help him heal and grow stronger.  We have no idea.  There is no definitive meaning to "practice" and there is no way, in my thinking, that they could deny a medical redshirt because Buzz said he was practicing.  Junior had been taking some shots aftger surgery too - is that practice?  It is, but I doubt that it would be interpreted that he wasn't still injured.

bma725

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Re: Otule red-shirting, but practicing
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 12:23:01 AM »
Season ending just could mean he does not play in anymore games. You could certainly argue that even if he could physically run up and down the court, he is so behind that he is not ready to play. Given that he barely played the year before, I cannot imagine them not giving a red shirt. They would have to have some bone to pick with Buzz, MU or Otule not to grant it.

No, that's not what it means, the NCAA is very specific about it.  The injury is considered season ending only if you do not play because you are physically unable to do so.  If you get medically cleared at any point before the season ends, then the injury is no longer considered to be season ending regardless of whether or not you actually play after receiving clearance.

How much he played the year before is irrelevant to the current situation and won't factor into the decision at all.