Crean Article on espn.com

[Tugg Speedman]

It's not even the best program in the state right now. 

This is a good question ... forget the big ten ... when will IU be recognized as the best program in the state of Indiana (above ND and Purdue?).  Will this even happen on Crean's watch?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the same as you, he needs to compete for the Big Ten title.  But what does that take?

Last year MSU was in the final game.  This year MSU is #5 and Purdue is #7.  So, what's the difference between being a Big Ten champion favorite and a final four team?  You're not winning the conference ranked #21 unless its an upset.  To win as a favorite you have to be a top 5 team. 

He needs the horses to accomplish this and I don't see him getting that caliber of player ... yet.

Remember that Rick Greenspan, the AD that hired him, is gone.  No baggage in letting him go in two years if he doesn't show real progress (meaning big recruits).

Well, I could be wrong, but I don't remember Purdue landing a UK or KU type of monster class. (could be wrong though).

They have certainly recruited talented players, but it's not like they are landing the #1 class in the country.

I think IU will compete for a B10 title in the next 3 years. I know some people will say that's not good enough, but I think the IU administration will be satisfied with that. The program hit rock bottom, and they will be satisfied with steady progress for 4-5 years.

Now, in 5 years, they are going to have to be winning in March to keep everybody satisfied. If they don't, then TC will be gone.

Also, let's just be honest: For some people, it doesn't matter what TC does, it won't be good enough, and he'll still be a douche.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well, I could be wrong, but I don't remember Purdue landing a UK or KU type of monster class. (could be wrong though).

They have certainly recruited talented players, but it's not like they are landing the #1 class in the country.

In West Lafayette they don't do around saying "it's Purdue" and they don't pay Painter $23 million coming in the door.

Based on your comments, you think that IU basketball is really no different than Iowa or say Wisconsin.  That is, their goal is do 1) not embarrass the university 2) give the students something to do during the cold winter, 3) make them proud every few years.


Fact is IU thinks it belongs in the same breath as UNC, Duke and KU.  And if Crean doesn't deliver on this soon (two years), he's history.  It starts with getting the horses (recruits). 

IF IU waits 5 or 6 years, meaning five or six years of mediocre performances, they will be thought of as being as special as say Cincy (remember how they were consistently a top five program) and their toast.  They will be a middle of the pack big ten team for another decade after that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In West Lafayette they don't do around saying "it's Purdue" and they don't pay Painter $23 million coming in the door.

Based on your comments, you think that IU basketball is really no different than Iowa or say Wisconsin.  That is, their goal is do 1) not embarrass the university 2) give the students something to do during the cold winter, 3) make them proud every few years.


Fact is IU thinks it belongs in the same breath as UNC, Duke and KU.  And if Crean doesn't deliver on this soon (two years), he's history.  It starts with getting the horses (recruits).  

IF IU waits 5 or 6 years, meaning five or six years of mediocre performances, they will be thought of as being as special as say Cincy (remember how they were consistently a top five program) and their toast.  They will be a middle of the pack big ten team for another decade after that.

OK. You win.

IU thinks its better than everybody else, and TC sucks and will be run out on a rail because he hasn't landed a top 3 recruiting class.

Is this accurate?

EDIT: It's ok for Purdue to have a top 10 team without a monster recruiting class, but it's not ok for IU to have that? If IU becomes as good as Purdue is now, it won't matter what the recruiting classes are ranked.

[ChicosBailBonds]

From everything I read from Indiana fanboys on many sites, I feel that II should have nothing less than a Top 5 recruiting class year in year out.  After all, they're Indiana; one of the top 5 basketball schools in the country...or so I hear.  Top level talent should be fighting with each other to recruit themselves to Bloomington.   I mean TC said it himself...Wade would have crawled on his hands and knees over burning coals to have a chance to play at II

I think we're coming up on the time where Indiana is no longer an "elite" program.  Same level as Marquette at best.  These recruits weren't even born when II won it's last title.  They've been in one Final Four in recent history...same as Marquette and many other schools.    I don't think TC will land top-flight recruiting classes because he'll try to sell them the history of the banners.  1987 means nothing to someone born in 1993.    It's not even the best program in the state right now.  I'd wish him luck in making an attempt to last the term of his contract...but I won't.  

There is no doubt that IU today is not elite like it was.  The question is the ceiling.  It the ceiling lower or higher than at most schools? I'd argue their ceiling is very high.

As for the websites, I'm not sure what threads you gravitate to, but there are many many (more than the other side) where fans realize this is going to be a long haul and will take a long time.  They want to do it right.

I just laugh at the prospects that he'll be gone next year or even the year after.  They are just so out of touch with reality it's funny to read.

Fred Glass is totally on board and they literally started from scratch.  Any comparison to Memphis, Kentucky or anyone else is absurd because none of them had to start over from scratch with the same restraints on them, not even close.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is a good question ... forget the big ten ... when will IU be recognized as the best program in the state of Indiana (above ND and Purdue?).  Will this even happen on Crean's watch?

Funny, Marquette isn't the best program in our state either.  Go figure. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Funny, Marquette isn't the best program in our state either.  Go figure. 

MU was last year, and the year before.  And it's a good bet it will be again next year.  And, with a good run in the next few weeks, it might again this year.

Nothing close can be said for IU.

CBB, you keep lower expectations for IU.  It now an "average major" program from your comments.  Are you now willing to admit that Crean made a lateral move instead of a move upward.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU was last year, and the year before.  And it's a good bet it will be again next year.  And, with a good run in the next few weeks, it might again this year.

Nothing close can be said for IU.

CBB, you keep lower expectations for IU.  It now an "average major" program from your comments.  Are you now willing to admit that Crean made a lateral move instead of a move upward.

Today, it is an average major program, in fact below average.  My expectations are high, but they are within reason.  It will take several years and Fred knows this.

Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year.  Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.

[jmayer1]

Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year.  Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.

So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!

[ChicosBailBonds]

IU is in on some very good 2011 kids, many from the state.  They already have a 4 star commitment from Etherington.

Dawson is a 5 star from Indiana that has IU on his list along with G'Town, Purdue and UCLA

Jeremiah Davis, another 4 star from Indiana, is on their list

Marquis Teague is the big fish in that class...a 5 star that everyone wants. He's from Indianapolis, and IU is one of the schools on his list


They're also on some Michigan and Illinois kids that are 4 stars.  My guess is that you will see them land a very good class for that year. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Today, it is an average major program, in fact below average.  My expectations are high, but they are within reason.  It will take several years and Fred knows this.

Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year.  Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.

So why did Crean take it?  You know he was hoping for a Pastner or Cal type of splash in his first years with McDonald's AA begging to get in ending with IU's version of the "fab 5."  It did not happen in 2008, 2009 and is not happening in 2010 so far.  Now they are in year three preaching patience.  This is not good.

Right now it looks like Crean made a mistake.  He has not improved his position over MU, other than his salary.  If it was about money, their were easier ways to get a raise.

[Tugg Speedman]

So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!

Yes, using CBB logic, Roy Williams is a failure because he's now coaching the fourth best program in the state of North Carolina.

[Indymac]

Hey guys, so after I read that article on ESPN, I Googled it to see if anyone else had written something like that and I found you guys talking about it, so I figured I'd try to set some of the facts straight, as a lifelong Hoosier and IU fan that is.  (Sorry if this is long, but I want to try to answer all the different things I've read)

You guys only know half of the story of Sampson's firing.  Along with cheating, he also didn't control the team at all.  The only players who weren't failing classes and/or doing drugs were Eric Gordon (who just kept to himself) and DJ White and Kyle Taber (who didn't hang out with the rest of the team either).  Gordon and DJ went to the NBA and everyone else was either kicked of the team or transferred before they could be (except Taber a former walk-on who earned a scholarship), most were gone before Crean was hired.  That IU was able to put a team on the court at all last season was an accomplishment, let alone 6 wins.  You could argue that this is Crean's first real season at IU.

Obviously at a school with IU's tradition there are going to some people who aren't happy with Crean.  We don't have any patients for losing and we don't want any.  The phrase, "I don't know how much more of this I can take." is hear quite often.  But, that doesn't mean Crean is "on the clock".  He has overwhelming support from the majority of the fan base.  But, most (the realistic ones) considered a .500 record this a best case scenario, so our record right now is not a surprise.  The team only has 2 upperclassmen, Dumes is a JUCO transfer, and Rivers who barely played at G'Town, so they don't have much experience either.  Then we lost Creek who was the top scoring freshman in the Big Ten and dropped 31 on Kentucky.  Yes, we lost to few cupcakes early in the year, and the loss to Iowa was wholly intolerable (because of how they played, not the loss itself).  But we've also beaten Pitt and competed with Maryland and Kentucky.  We beat Minnesota in overtime and won a road Big Ten game (even if it was Penn State), and lost on a last second shot at Illinois.  So there has been signs of progress, and Crean isn't in danger of getting fired any time soon.

As for down the road?  Well, I'd say he'll need to have a winning record next year, and make the tourney the next year, which is possible if the current underclassmen continue to improve and gain experience (especially Jones III, Creek, Watford and Hulls) and more talent is added.  As for recruiting, Teague isn't as big a deal as you guys think, especially if he goes to Louisville, whom IU fans usually root for .  But, if Crean's not keeping anyone in the state, then the fans will become upset. (Especially if they go to Kentucky, Illinois or OSU)  IU has never been a hot spot nationally for recruits, but we've never needed to be with all of the home grown talent.  So far he appears to be doing a better job recruiting in Indiana than Davis or Sampson did.

And as for IU no longer being an elite program?  Well, we've fallen behind UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. for now, but we will eventually be back.  IU has averaged 15,000 a game and Assembly Hall has been sold out on occasion (we were 16th in the country last year despite 6 wins).  Also, IU is opening a new Basketball Development Center, which is huge because currently the only court available is the one in Assembly Hall which is shared between the Men and Women's teams.

(Don't know if you guys actually care, but I was bored, so there you go)

[HoopsMalone]

Hey guys, so after I read that article on ESPN, I Googled it to see if anyone else had written something like that and I found you guys talking about it, so I figured I'd try to set some of the facts straight, as a lifelong Hoosier and IU fan that is.  (Sorry if this is long, but I want to try to answer all the different things I've read)

You guys only know half of the story of Sampson's firing.  Along with cheating, he also didn't control the team at all.  The only players who weren't failing classes and/or doing drugs were Eric Gordon (who just kept to himself) and DJ White and Kyle Taber (who didn't hang out with the rest of the team either).  Gordon and DJ went to the NBA and everyone else was either kicked of the team or transferred before they could be (except Taber a former walk-on who earned a scholarship), most were gone before Crean was hired.  That IU was able to put a team on the court at all last season was an accomplishment, let alone 6 wins.  You could argue that this is Crean's first real season at IU.

Obviously at a school with IU's tradition there are going to some people who aren't happy with Crean.  We don't have any patients for losing and we don't want any.  The phrase, "I don't know how much more of this I can take." is hear quite often.  But, that doesn't mean Crean is "on the clock".  He has overwhelming support from the majority of the fan base.  But, most (the realistic ones) considered a .500 record this a best case scenario, so our record right now is not a surprise.  The team only has 2 upperclassmen, Dumes is a JUCO transfer, and Rivers who barely played at G'Town, so they don't have much experience either.  Then we lost Creek who was the top scoring freshman in the Big Ten and dropped 31 on Kentucky.  Yes, we lost to few cupcakes early in the year, and the loss to Iowa was wholly intolerable (because of how they played, not the loss itself).  But we've also beaten Pitt and competed with Maryland and Kentucky.  We beat Minnesota in overtime and won a road Big Ten game (even if it was Penn State), and lost on a last second shot at Illinois.  So there has been signs of progress, and Crean isn't in danger of getting fired any time soon.

As for down the road?  Well, I'd say he'll need to have a winning record next year, and make the tourney the next year, which is possible if the current underclassmen continue to improve and gain experience (especially Jones III, Creek, Watford and Hulls) and more talent is added.  As for recruiting, Teague isn't as big a deal as you guys think, since most don't expect him to come to IU or stay long if he does.  But, if Crean's not keeping anyone in the state, then the fans will become upset. (Especially if they go to Kentucky, Illinois or OSU)  IU has never been a hot spot nationally for recruits, but we've never needed to be with all of the home grown talent.  So far he appears to be doing a better job recruiting in Indiana than Davis or Sampson did.

And as for IU no longer being an elite program?  Well, we've fallen behind UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. for now, but we will eventually be back.  IU has averaged 15,000 a game and Assembly Hall has been sold out on occasion (we were 16th in the country last year despite 6 wins).  Also, IU is opening a new Basketball Development Center, which is huge because currently the only court available is the one in Assembly Hall which is shared between the Men and Women's teams.

(Don't know if you guys actually care, but I was bored, so there you go)

Thats good that you are being patient with Crean at IU.  His act just got really old at Marquette and I hear him say the same bs still at IU.  For example, he will be asked a question about the game and he will start answering it and then get into his talking points about "tradition" and whatever else.  He drops D-Wade's name more now than he ever did, too. 

Before Crean went there, I loved IU's program but he is a hard guy to root for to be honest based on his huge ego and for the manner he left his players at MU.  You will not find a single person who would rather have Crean than Buzz.  In fact, there were calls to get Crean out of town back in 2005, especially if MU could have tried to poach Bruce Pearl from UW-Milwaukee.  Crean road D-Wade to a big contract so hopefully he is happy, and we probably would not have Buzz if Crean did not hire him so we can be thankful for that. 

[4everwarriors]

If you truly aspire to return to the level of UNC, Duke, KU or the like, then Crean's not your man. He's a used car salesman who talks a good show but in reality produces very little.....except for himself. He's an average recruiter when there's playing time to sell, but routinely finishes out of the money with the program changers. Game prep leaves plenty to be desired also. If in doubt, see our 2003 FF semi-final game vs. Kansas as all the proof you may need. He'll preach family, team, etc., but don't be surprised if he bolts in the middle of the night. Friends, you ask? He's got an entire laundry list left behind here. Dudes like Mike McCarthy, LaRussa, and Ben Sheets. Truth is, no one really knows him. When he feels compelled to get the word out, Andy Katz will shill for him. He'll need to suck onto a another superstar soon, I mean, how long can you ride on DWade's shirttails? He extremely self-absorbed, yet, can't see his own lousy haircut or fake tan. And, tell him to please learn to tie a tie properly.

But, you and the IU faithful can enjoy the turd and all his propaganda. Because, in the end, you'll come back to this board and admit, you didn't want to believe it, but Tom Crean is a phony.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Seriously, with apologies to Holden Caufield and the late JD Salinger, if somebody can name me a bigger phony than Tom Crean I'm all ears.

You would be amazed at how many coaches fit that label.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!

I'm using his criteria.....would you say MU is a better program than Wisconsin right now?  Or this decade?  I sure wouldn't.   They've been close, but Wisconsin's 10 straight NCAA appearances and a Final Four, conference titles trump our decade.

He made the argument that we were a better program last year than UW.  I'd say we were even the last few years.  This year they are clearly better, for the decade they have the edge.

[tower912]

Crean did good work here.    For MU and Crean both.  I thought his game prep was decent but his in-game adjustments were poor.   IMO his poor in-game adjustments stemmed from his inability to recruit a balance roster.    I assumed that once he got to IU,  this weakness would take care of itself, which, since he would actually have options, would lead to better in-game adjustments.   Also, I assumed that he would learn and grow from his mistakes.   If he can involve and recruit bigs, he will do fine at IU.    I bear him no ill will.   Good luck.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you truly aspire to return to the level of UNC, Duke, KU or the like, then Crean's not your man. He's a used car salesman who talks a good show but in reality produces very little.....except for himself. He's an average recruiter when there's playing time to sell, but routinely finishes out of the money with the program changers. Game prep leaves plenty to be desired also. If in doubt, see our 2003 FF semi-final game vs. Kansas as all the proof you may need. He'll preach family, team, etc., but don't be surprised if he bolts in the middle of the night. Friends, you ask? He's got an entire laundry list left behind here. Dudes like Mike McCarthy, LaRussa, and Ben Sheets. Truth is, no one really knows him. When he feels compelled to get the word out, Andy Katz will shill for him. He'll need to suck onto a another superstar soon, I mean, how long can you ride on DWade's shirttails? He extremely self-absorbed, yet, can't see his own lousy haircut or fake tan. And, tell him to please learn to tie a tie properly.

But, you and the IU faithful can enjoy the turd and all his propaganda. Because, in the end, you'll come back to this board and admit, you didn't want to believe it, but Tom Crean is a phony.

4ever...it's what they need right now.  They need someone that will work his ass off, do it right, rebuild the image.  That's what he was hired to do and that's what he's doing.  Pretty simple

[4everwarriors]

I don't disagree. Just giving Indymac and the IU faithful fair warning. Sometimes love is blind and one just can't see the obvious or just won't believe it. TC had most of the MU fanbase fooled for a long time too.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

You now have 30 posts in this thread but as of yet have not responded to my post on page 3 questioning your "fact" that IU won't allow Crean to recruit 80% of the players Pastner is bringing in at Memphis. We already know this isn't true regarding Black and Kendrick which leaves you well short of 80%. Please supply us with the information regarding their other 5 recruits (test scores and gpa) which would preclude them from entering the hallowed halls of Indiana Unoversity. Thanks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So why did Crean take it?  You know he was hoping for a Pastner or Cal type of splash in his first years with McDonald's AA begging to get in ending with IU's version of the "fab 5."  It did not happen in 2008, 2009 and is not happening in 2010 so far.  Now they are in year three preaching patience.  This is not good.

Right now it looks like Crean made a mistake.  He has not improved his position over MU, other than his salary.  If it was about money, their were easier ways to get a raise.

Who in the hell looks at this stuff through a 2 year vision?  I know he didn't.  I know IU doesn't from the folks I talk to.  They see nothing about a mistake at all.

Why did he take it.

1) Better opportunity - higher upside
2) More stability if it works out - Big Ten is solid, MU is in fragile Big East conference which may not last
3) More money - 10 year contract with more money
4) In state talent - IU can survive on Indiana recruits alone if it had to.  MU cannot on Wisconsin recruits.
5) Intangibles - THE STATE SCHOOL.  No pro team to compete with.  5th most national titles in history.  Etc

That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities.  Short term, no brainer he should have stayed.  Long term, not even close.  When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it.  It's a once in a lifetime opportunity.  That's why he took it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,

You now have 30 posts in this thread but as of yet have not responded to my post on page 3 questioning your "fact" that IU won't allow Crean to recruit 80% of the players Pastner is bringing in at Memphis. We already know this isn't true regarding Black and Kendrick which leaves you well short of 80%. Please supply us with the information regarding their other 5 recruits (test scores and gpa) which would preclude them from entering the hallowed halls of Indiana Unoversity. Thanks.

Lenny....I can tell you from the conversations I've had with the IU folks I know that are in the athletic department and I'll be as blunt as I can be.

THERE WILL BE NO SHORTCUTS TAKEN.  NONE WILL BE ALLOWED. ZERO TOLERANCE.  PERIOD.  END OF STORY.

They are having to recruit kids cut from a different cloth right now.  I'm sorry if my 80% was a bit hyperbole, forgive me.  The fact of the matter is that there are restrictions placed internally right now (they are temporary, but they are there) that they have to bring in HIGH CHARACTER guys that eliminates them from going after some other kids that are attending some other schools that go for the quick fix.

You're welcome.

[Tugg Speedman]

Lenny....I can tell you from the conversations I've had with the IU folks I know that are in the athletic department and I'll be as blunt as I can be.

THERE WILL BE NO SHORTCUTS TAKEN.  NONE WILL BE ALLOWED. ZERO TOLERANCE.  PERIOD.  END OF STORY.

So everyone ahead of IU in recruiting polls cheats?  Please stop and try another rationalization.

From your earlier post ....
Why did he take it.

1) Better opportunity - higher upside
      The entire point of this thread is to say this is no longer true.  In fact, you made this case the best with your "contacts" admitting things are not going well now and preaching patience.
2) More stability if it works out - Big Ten is solid, MU is in fragile Big East conference which may not last
    I have no idea what this means.  If the Big East breaks up you think MU is join the Horizon league?
3) More money - 10 year contract with more money
  Easier ways to accomplish this. than taking the most screwed up program in America. (one that I'm arguing is not fixable ... "fixable" means back to consistently winning the big ten.)
4) In state talent - IU can survive on Indiana recruits alone if it had to.  MU cannot on Wisconsin recruits.
  You're assuming they can actually get them.  Unlike MU that only has Wisconsin to compete with in state, IU has Purdue, ND and Louisville (who is only three miles from the Indiana border).
5) Intangibles - THE STATE SCHOOL.  No pro team to compete with.  5th most national titles in history.  Etc
    I have no idea what this means and what it means to an 18 year old recruit.

That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities.  Short term, no brainer he should have stayed.  Long term, not even close.  When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it.  It's a once in a lifetime opportunity.  That's why he took it.

Let me say this in a way you can understand.  .... IU was Bobby like MU was Al.  KU, Kentucky, UCLA and UNC have consistently won at the highest levels with multiple coaches.  IU only did it with Bobby as MU only did it with Al.  Once Knight left, they began their long slow slide to mediocrity (that is, becoming a consistent 3rd to 6th place big ten team).  

Crean is now IU's Dukiet years.

(side note, Duke faces the same problem when K leaves ... they too could start a long slow slide into becoming Wake Forest.  We'll see.).

[pillardean]

That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities.  Short term, no brainer he should have stayed.  Long term, not even close.  When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it.  It's a once in a lifetime opportunity.  That's why he took it.

How did those schools become like that?
Time and Tradition.

They were forged from infancy with work and good coaching.  Now they are destination jobs because most are too cowardly and impatient to form their own legacy at a school and build such tradition.

That's how I look at Crean.  A "professional" with aspirations of coaching at one of the "elite" schools rather than staying and building/contining MU's legacy and possibly forging it into a consistant winner to be an "elite" bball school.

Some would say that is not possible.  Maybe in the short term it is impossible, sure, but who can tell a thing 40 years in the future?