Crean Article on espn.com

[Tugg Speedman]

In basketball you're as good as the next recruiting class.  I agree with you that if he does not have a monster class by 2012, he's history.  Right now I would not be holding my breath.

And going back to the Memphis example.  That was about recruiting.  Cal leaves and Pastner still reels in arguably the #1 recruiting class in the nation.  I see Crean comfortably re-tooling IU for a run at fourth place in the Big Ten.  That's not going to cut it and your "contacts" know this.

You think they are willing to pay him $23 million for these results?

[ChicosBailBonds]

In basketball you're as good as the next recruiting class.  I agree with you that if he does not have a monster class by 2012, he's history.  Right now I would not be holding my breath.

And going back to the Memphis example.  That was about recruiting.  Cal leaves and Pastner still reels in arguably the #1 recruiting class in the nation.  I see Crean comfortably re-tooling IU for a run at fourth place in the Big Ten.  That's not going to cut it and your "contacts" know this.

You think they are willing to pay him $23 million for these results?

They can't afford not to, they are in deep financial crap right now. Yes, Mark Cuban could come to the rescue or another well heeled alum, but why you guys keep comparing this to Memphis is beyond me.  Memphis cheats, Memphis has ZERO standards while IU is trying like crazy to reestablish those standards.  They've told Crean to rebuild it and rebuild it correctly.  ZERO SHORT CUTS.  To compare what Memphis is doing is silly since 80% of those kids IU can't take anyway. 

[4everwarriors]

But we would have taken Tarik Black. Granted Memphis cheated under Calipari. Is there any evidence that Pastner is not playing by the rules? Or is this just assumed as it is with Bruce because they're successful quite quickly?

[Tugg Speedman]

You keep saying that Memphis cheats and IU does it right.  Are you saying Pastner is a cheater?  Just as MU would have taken Tarik Black, you think Crean would have told him "no thanks" if he called IU?

I think you have a better argument that Cal is turning UK into a cess pool (remember that Cal has never made the final four as both appearances have been vacated).

[ChicosBailBonds]

You keep saying that Memphis cheats and IU does it right.  Are you saying Pastner is a cheater?  Just as MU would have taken Tarik Black, you think Crean would have told him "no thanks" if he called IU?

I think you have a better argument that Cal is turning UK into a cess pool (remember that Cal has never made the final four as both appearances have been vacated).

Memphis has a long history of cheating going back decades.  They also have academic standards (ahem) that allow them to take ANYONE.  IU is in a situation right now due to the academic issues under Sampson that they CANNOT take anyone that is close to suspect.  There are kids that at Memphis that would not be allowed in to IU at the current moment.  Maybe in a few years when things die down, but right now, not on a bet. 

Is Pastner cheating, who knows.  Does he have a whole hell of a lot more flexibility to get kids into Memphis than TC (or anyone) would at IU right now?  You better believe it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ultimately here's the deal at this point.  They are looking for progress at this point.

Last year IU won 1 Big Ten game.

This year, they've won 3 already, including a road game.

Last year they lost to Illinois in two games by 44 points...this year they lost in OT and by 2 on the road at the buzzer.

They've done this without their best player.

They are looking for improvement and no one in the administration is even remotely panicked like some MU fans wish they were.  The team GPA is the highest it's been in a number of years.  They're playing hard, they're competitive in most games and the players are almost all freshmen and sophomores except one. 

That's the deal at this point.

[Tugg Speedman]

Ultimately here's the deal at this point.  They are looking for progress at this point.

Last year IU won 1 Big Ten game.

This year, they've won 3 already, including a road game.

Last year they lost to Illinois in two games by 44 points...this year they lost in OT and by 2 on the road at the buzzer.

They've done this without their best player.

They are looking for improvement and no one in the administration is even remotely panicked like some MU fans wish they were.  The team GPA is the highest it's been in a number of years.  They're playing hard, they're competitive in most games and the players are almost all freshmen and sophomores except one. 

That's the deal at this point.

Yes, they are better than last year.  That's not the question.  When are they going to win the Big Ten?

He's the reality, they are not capable to running with MSU, OSU or Purdue?  Not with the talent they have now, not with the players they signed so far.  At best they are a middle of the pack team.

I know you're goint to tell me they have the academic standards of ND, Duke or Stanford so it's tough on Tommy.  So, when are they going to be good enough to beat these teams? (how about Harvard?)

To repeat my question, He has a $23 million contract, is this what they signed up for?

At this point the only thing that matters is next year's recruiting class.  If he finally gets some real studs, he was a good hire.  If not, he'll be a consultant for the Ravens in two years.

[wojosdojo]

You guys do understand that IU is still under some recruiting probations with doesnt left Crean with much to do but just take walkons. When they get off probation Crean will be on the rise in the Big10 (the 2nd toughest confrence).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

To repeat my question, He has a $23 million contract, is this what they signed up for?

The administration? I'd say yes. TC is a strong promoter, goodwill ambassador, and program salesman.

IU will give him a few years to help rebuild the program image and fan excitement (he's good as those things).

Now, I know if 5 years he's going to have to win otherwise people will grow restless, but I'd say for right now he is doing exactly what the administration wants/expects. THIS IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR. Clean out the program and build it up in the right way. We can hate on TC all we want, but he (and the current administration) built MU into a better program.


Fans? Well, they want it all.

Win now. Graduate everybody. Get every recruit. Get a new logo. Keep the old logo. Longer shorts. Shorter short. New songs at games. Old songs at games. More local players. More national players. Better student seating. Better alumni seating. More alumni events. Less alumni events. Better food. Cheaper beer.

[Tugg Speedman]

The administration? I'd say yes. TC is a strong promoter, goodwill ambassador, and program salesman.
IU will give him a few years to help rebuild the program image and fan excitement (he's good as those things).

In case you forgot, state budgets are stretched and people are getting laid off.  Tommy us probably the highest paid state emplyee in Indiana (I'm assuming he makes more than the football coach).

Now consider this story

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3897386

At Indiana, athletic director Fred Glass has reduced ticket costs for balcony seating to $5, hoping to improve slipping attendance.

In this poltical envirnoment, The Governor could lose his job if voters get pissed the highest salaried state emplyee is not worth it.  The dyanamic is changing.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In case you forgot, state budgets are stretched and people are getting laid off.  Tommy us probably the highest paid state emplyee in Indiana (I'm assuming he makes more than the football coach).

Now consider this story

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3897386

At Indiana, athletic director Fred Glass has reduced ticket costs for balcony seating to $5, hoping to improve slipping attendance.

In this poltical envirnoment, The Governor could lose his job if voters get pissed the highest salaried state emplyee is not worth it.  The dyanamic is changing.

You can believe what you like, but I'm telling you that TC is going to get AT LEAST 2 more years after this year to straighten out the program.

The fans (and you) can be as pissed about it, but I bet the house that TC will be there. Now, if they aren't winning after that, I can see him getting replaced because ultimately he's going to HAVE to win games/titles. But, he is going to get every chance in the world.

I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?

[mu-rara]

You can believe what you like, but I'm telling you that TC is going to get AT LEAST 2 more years after this year to straighten out the program.

The fans (and you) can be as pissed about it, but I bet the house that TC will be there. Now, if they aren't winning after that, I can see him getting replaced because ultimately he's going to HAVE to win games/titles. But, he is going to get every chance in the world.

I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?

While you and I disagree in the Crean War (get it?)  I agree that he gets at least 2 more years. maybe 3.

[ChicosBailBonds]

At least 2 more years, there is no way he won't.  It is fantasy land to think he will get anything less, regardless of how much bitter Marquette fans pray nightly for that to happen.

Fred Glass is equally aware of the contractual issues and the massive buyouts on the football and basketball side the last decade.  Contracts mean something to Glass in this political environment and yet you're only looking at it from one perspective. If you let someone go, you're now paying two coaches instead of one.  Is that politically palatable?  IU is 10th of 11 schools in money.  They don't have the means to keep paying coaches that aren't coaching.

This is what Fred said a few months ago: ‘You’re dealing with the equivalent of a death penalty in basketball. What happened to our program was extraordinary and maybe unique in the history of college basketball. The thing was wiped out. We literally started from nothing. That’s not what Tom signed on for. When he came there was reason to believe there would be a nucleus of players to build around. Appropriately so, (those players) departed. That was the right result based on what was going on.”

He gets it.  He's not going to pull the rug under someone who has basically had to start a program from scratch.  Glass isn't that kind of guy for those that know him.  He just isn't.  Glass is the 5th AD in the last 8 years.  There has been no stability at IU for the last decade, but they finally have someone.  They have a long term plan to get this done and do it right. 

The new basketball practice facility opens this spring, and it's amazing.  The new athletics academic center as well.

As for attendance at IU, our attendance is down at MU as well.  Just the way it is.  As far I can tell, IU is still 2nd in the Big Ten in attendance and has been for quite some time.

The highest paid employee in the state is Tom Crean.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

While you and I disagree in the Crean War (get it?)  I agree that he gets at least 2 more years. maybe 3.

Mark down this day. We agree about TC!

Shocking.

As far as IU goes, they will use him to promote the program and rebuild. If after that, he's not winning, they'll fire him. If he's starting to win and bringing in good recruits, he'll get another contract.

This isn't rocket science.

[mu-rara]

Mark down this day. We agree about TC!

Shocking.

As far as IU goes, they will use him to promote the program and rebuild. If after that, he's not winning, they'll fire him. If he's starting to win and bringing in good recruits, he'll get another contract.

This isn't rocket science.

I was upset with Crean signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2.  I give him credit for what he achieved.  I was at the Final Four and Minneapolis and Indy that year.  It  was a blast.

Don't include me with those who wish him ill will at II, II.  I am totally ambivalent toward IU.  (Unless we play them)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I was upset with Crean signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2.  I give him credit for what he achieved.  I was at the Final Four and Minneapolis and Indy that year.  It  was a blast.

Don't include me with those who wish him ill will at II, II.  I am totally ambivalent toward IU.  (Unless we play them)

I agree with that. I was disappointed as well. It was a sh*tty move, by a dude with a HUGE ego who is really only looking out for himself and his family.


To be honest, I think we share a lot more views than either of us think.

Written communication of this nature often leads to miscommunication and a lot of "reading between the lines". People get qualified as TC "lovers" or "haters", when really 95% of people fall somewhere in the middle.

I'm somewhere in the middle, but admittedly, I find myself "defending" the guy a lot because I don't like some of the needless bashing that goes on.

[Tugg Speedman]

I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?

To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone.  I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012.  If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant.  If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history.  My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it.  Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.

... and you never heard of a republican winning the Senate in MA.  The world is changing, as I said before.  States are broke.  Governors are going to have to cut (make that butcher) spending or raise taxes.  Raise taxes and your career is over.  Cur thousand of state employees and keep a $2 million bball coach finishing in fifth place in the conference and you have a political issue.  You've never heard of a lot of things that is currently happening in muni finance.

Cal at UK, Saban at Alabama, Brown at Texas are in the same situation as high paid coaches.  The difference is they are playing for championship so they get a pass.  If they were playing for fifth place in their respective conferences for two years in a row then it would be good bye to them too.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with that. I was disappointed as well. It was a sh*tty move, by a dude with a HUGE ego who is really only looking out for himself and his family.


To be honest, I think we share a lot more views than either of us think.

Written communication of this nature often leads to miscommunication and a lot of "reading between the lines". People get qualified as TC "lovers" or "haters", when really 95% of people fall somewhere in the middle.

I'm somewhere in the middle, but admittedly, I find myself "defending" the guy a lot because I don't like some of the needless bashing that goes on.

Amen.   I hate being called a Crean lover, it's far from it.  I just won't pile on the guy after all he did for the program, especially when some of the attacks are so baseless it's ridiculous. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone.  I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012.  If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant.  If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history.  My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it.  Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.

Why do you think he has to have a recruiting class like UK or Memphis?  Honestly, where are you getting this?  That's not what I'm hearing at all.  He landed one top 10 class.  If he lands another top 10 or top 15 class he'll be fine.  He does not need to land a top 3 recruiting class.  IU in it's hey day never did that.

Of course his current recruiting will need to get better, but as much as he has "time to sell" he also has other roadblocks that other schools don't have. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone.  I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012.  If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant.  If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history.  My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it.  Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.

... and you never heard of a republican winning the Senate in MA.  The world is changing, as I said before.  States are broke.  Governors are going to have to cut (make that butcher) spending or raise taxes.  Raise taxes and your career is over.  Cur thousand of state employees and keep a $2 million bball coach finishing in fifth place in the conference and you have a political issue.  You've never heard of a lot of things that is currently happening in muni finance.

Cal at UK, Saban at Alabama, Brown at Texas are in the same situation as high paid coaches.  The difference is they are playing for championship so they get a pass.  If they were playing for fifth place in their respective conferences for two years in a row then it would be good bye to them too.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the political stuff. I can't imagine a scenario where a governor is held responsible for the performance of the college basketball coach. Also, how much of his salary is paid for by donations to the school?

As far as monster recruiting classes... well, he doesn't need to win a national title in 2 years, he probably just needs to compete for a Big Ten title... so I don't think he needs a top 5 recruiting class. I think he just needs to keep adding talented kids and show progress in the program. If at the end of 2012 IU isn't close to winning the B10, his seat will get very hot (maybe fired).

For whatever reason, it seems like your expectations are a lot higher. I guess we can just agree to disagree about that as well.

[Lennys Tap]

They can't afford not to, they are in deep financial crap right now. Yes, Mark Cuban could come to the rescue or another well heeled alum, but why you guys keep comparing this to Memphis is beyond me.  Memphis cheats, Memphis has ZERO standards while IU is trying like crazy to reestablish those standards.  They've told Crean to rebuild it and rebuild it correctly.  ZERO SHORT CUTS.  To compare what Memphis is doing is silly since 80% of those kids IU can't take anyway. 

Tarik Black is by all reports an outstanding student. Jelan Kendrick was heavily recruited by IU. That already blows up the 80% can't get into IU statement. I don't know anything about the academics of the rest of Pastner's class and I suspect you don't either. But if their grade points and test scores meet or exceed NCAA standards my guess is IU could find a spot for them. You rarely make reckless statements but I'd like to see the facts that prove this one.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the political stuff. I can't imagine a scenario where a governor is held responsible for the performance of the college basketball coach. Also, how much of his salary is paid for by donations to the school?

As far as monster recruiting classes... well, he doesn't need to win a national title in 2 years, he probably just needs to compete for a Big Ten title... so I don't think he needs a top 5 recruiting class. I think he just needs to keep adding talented kids and show progress in the program. If at the end of 2012 IU isn't close to winning the B10, his seat will get very hot (maybe fired).

For whatever reason, it seems like your expectations are a lot higher. I guess we can just agree to disagree about that as well.

I think the same as you, he needs to compete for the Big Ten title.  But what does that take?

Last year MSU was in the final game.  This year MSU is #5 and Purdue is #7.  So, what's the difference between being a Big Ten champion favorite and a final four team?  You're not winning the conference ranked #21 unless its an upset.  To win as a favorite you have to be a top 5 team. 

He needs the horses to accomplish this and I don't see him getting that caliber of player ... yet.

Remember that Rick Greenspan, the AD that hired him, is gone.  No baggage in letting him go in two years if he doesn't show real progress (meaning big recruits).

[Tugg Speedman]

Tarik Black is by all reports an outstanding student. Jelan Kendrick was heavily recruited by IU. That already blows up the 80% can't get into IU statement. I don't know anything about the academics of the rest of Pastner's class and I suspect you don't either. But if their grade points and test scores meet or exceed NCAA standards my guess is IU could find a spot for them. You rarely make reckless statements but I'd like to see the facts that prove this one.

The Crean defenders sound like ND whiners ... either we win or don't because we are ethical and everyone else is scum.

IU is not using Ivy standards for the basketball team?  (btw, Cornell is now ranked).  Lots of schools have standards similar to IU now, including MU.  The difference is the NCAA sanctions.  But like I said, we'll see if the floodgates open after they expire.

[MUsoxfan]

Why do you think he has to have a recruiting class like UK or Memphis?  Honestly, where are you getting this?  That's not what I'm hearing at all.  He landed one top 10 class.  If he lands another top 10 or top 15 class he'll be fine.  He does not need to land a top 3 recruiting class.  IU in it's hey day never did that.

Of course his current recruiting will need to get better, but as much as he has "time to sell" he also has other roadblocks that other schools don't have. 

From everything I read from Indiana fanboys on many sites, I feel that II should have nothing less than a Top 5 recruiting class year in year out.  After all, they're Indiana; one of the top 5 basketball schools in the country...or so I hear.  Top level talent should be fighting with each other to recruit themselves to Bloomington.   I mean TC said it himself...Wade would have crawled on his hands and knees over burning coals to have a chance to play at II

I think we're coming up on the time where Indiana is no longer an "elite" program.  Same level as Marquette at best.  These recruits weren't even born when II won it's last title.  They've been in one Final Four in recent history...same as Marquette and many other schools.    I don't think TC will land top-flight recruiting classes because he'll try to sell them the history of the banners.  1987 means nothing to someone born in 1993.    It's not even the best program in the state right now.  I'd wish him luck in making an attempt to last the term of his contract...but I won't. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

He's not going to be fired in the next couple years. And I hope he doesn't. It's too enjoyable seeing Hoosier fans get wise to the disingenuous jack ass. Watching him dangling from a rope, while his players (who know who he really is) witness him clapping and aping for the cameras like a d*ckhead on the sidelines during games is an absolute pleasure. If Indiana gets rid of him, they'll strip us of the opportunity to watch him the show.

Has he latched on to any Indiana "celebrities?" You know, any Gerry Boyle types? Mike McCarthy? Ben Sheets? Anybody like that?

Seriously, with apologies to Holden Caufield and the late JD Salinger, if somebody can name me a bigger phony than Tom Crean I'm all ears. Maybe Bernie Madoff, but I'm guessing he had real friends and not just people he met through fan letters.