22 to the rafters.
Most deserving non-retired jersey in my opinion.
I'd also add Markus and Tyler.
Would consider Jerel and Jae but leaning no on those.
Jersey or number? I say retire jersey keep numbers for everyone... except 3
Quote from: TallTitan34 on October 18, 2024, 10:06:01 AM
Most deserving non-retired jersey in my opinion.
I'd also add Markus and Tyler.
Would consider Jerel and Jae but leaning no on those.
Jae at least you could make a decent case based on how few conference POY we have had and how few second weekends since AL. Jerel I'm not so sure. Had the scoring record for a little while not by much, never got out of the first weekend, wasn't a first team all American, had the help of 3 other all time great players, single handedly lost us the TBT championship to OSU alumni.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 10:10:16 AM
Jersey or number? I say retire jersey keep numbers for everyone... except 3
I'm just assuming everyone's jersey (not number) is retired to avoid future arguments.
I wouldn't mind a two-tier system where a select few have the number retired and the rest have their jerseys retired to honor more of that second tier of people. I'd consider something along the lines of:
Number: Wade (3), Lee (15), Chones (22), Thompson (24), Ellis (31), McGuire (77)
Jersey:
Howard (0),
Miller (10),
Kolek/Apollo (11), Meminger (14), Lucas (20),
McNeal (22), Doc (31),
Crowder/Lazar (32),
Diener/McIlvaine/Smith (34), Weingart (38), Tatum (43), Raymonds (HANK)
Jim Chones was transformative, the way Dean the Dream and George Thompson.
Degree or no degree, this is long overdue.
Congratulations Jim, and thank you!
Ben Steele notes this is just jersey, not number. Glad we cleared that up after we (Tom) screwed over George.
I can see Jae. He has the right mix of personal success at MU with team success. I think you need both. This honor is like the Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame. The qualifications need to be very, very high. Scoring a bunch of points is just one part of the equation.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on October 18, 2024, 10:21:03 AM
I wouldn't mind a two-tier system where a select few have the number retired and the rest have their jerseys retired to honor that second tier of people. I'd consider something along the lines of:
Number: Wade (3), Lee (15), Chones (22), Thompson (24), Ellis (31), McGuire (77)
Jersey: Howard (0), Miller (10), Kolek/Apollo (11), Meminger (14), Lucas (20), McNeal (22), Doc (31), Crowder (32), Diener (34), Weingart (38), Tatum (43), Raymonds (HANK)
Had a similar thought when this was discussed awhile back- https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64278.msg1520474#msg1520474
Have to have won a natty and have a degree, otherwise the number doesn't go up. No participation trophies.
Quote from: The Lens on October 18, 2024, 10:22:55 AM
Scoring a bunch of points is just one part of the equation.
In that case Lazar finished 1st in games played, 3rd in points, 5th in rebounds, 7th in wins, 10th in steals.
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 18, 2024, 10:26:20 AM
Had a similar thought when this was discussed awhile back- https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64278.msg1520474#msg1520474
I like your list better. Let's go with that.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 18, 2024, 10:28:27 AM
Have to have won a natty and have a degree, otherwise the number doesn't go up. No participation trophies.
Jim Boylan is on board with this.
I'm on board with retiring jerseys and not numbers ever.
Awesome. We have such an incredible history. Love to continue to see our past celebrated and acknowledged.
You guys want to get weird? Let's get weird.
The man who put MU on his back and carried us to back to promience
The man who snubbed blue bloods and trusted in a young coach to create a program changing recruiting class
The man who led MU to it's first ever conference title
The man who carried MU to it's first S16 in over a decade
35 to the rafters
Damon Key. Do it.
That is weird.
Though I was a fan.
Quote from: The Lens on October 18, 2024, 10:46:41 AM
You guys want to get weird? Let's get weird.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/386ce394435bf71cb38ed2234e4083f2/tumblr_ofshmaIxZy1rm4mpho1_1280.jpg)
Has to be a bumblebee banner right?
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 18, 2024, 10:26:20 AM
Had a similar thought when this was discussed awhile back- https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64278.msg1520474#msg1520474
I'd add crowder & DJO if we're doing multiple names per jersey.
DJO?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 18, 2024, 10:04:10 AM
Did he get his degree?
Well deserved - long overdue
I know above is a schtick, but give the man his due
https://www.chicagotribune.com/1999/05/24/chones-gets-his-sheepskin/ (https://www.chicagotribune.com/1999/05/24/chones-gets-his-sheepskin/)
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 12:08:44 PM
DJO?
Stands for Darius Johnson-Odom, he's a former player from 2009/10-2011/12
Quote from: TallTitan34 on October 18, 2024, 10:21:03 AM
I'm just assuming everyone's jersey (not number) is retired to avoid future arguments.
I wouldn't mind a two-tier system where a select few have the number retired and the rest have their jerseys retired to honor more of that second tier of people. I'd consider something along the lines of:
Number: Wade (3), Lee (15), Chones (22), Thompson (24), Ellis (31), McGuire (77)
Jersey: Howard (0), Miller (10), Kolek/Apollo (11), Meminger (14), Lucas (20), McNeal (22), Doc (31), Crowder/Lazar (32), Diener/McIlvaine/Smith (34), Weingart (38), Tatum (43), Raymonds (HANK)
If we can also add coaches and significant contributers to the program, I would retire the initials of the dude who funded Wojo's buyout.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 12:44:42 PM
Stands for Darius Johnson-Odom, he's a former player from 2009/10-2011/12
Right. But his career was not rafter worthy.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:03:05 PM
Right. But his career was not rafter worthy.
That's fine if you feel that way, I disagree and feel his career is above others on that list. At least 4 without even diving into the data much.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:13:01 PM
That's fine if you feel that way, I disagree and feel his career is above others on that list. At least 4 without even diving into the data much.
Nah.
Pretty much the only reason I'd consider Crowder is because he won that BEPOY... which he won over DJO.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:16:31 PM
Nah.
Ok. Out of curiosity would you consider
first and second team all big east and being the leading scorer on teams to be a bigger achievement than 2x honorable mention?
Is second team old big east a bigger achievement than first team CUSA?
Is Second team big east bigger than CUSA 6th man of the year/freshman of the year?
Is first and second team all big east over 3 years a bigger deal than second team all big east over 4 years?
Player who lead us to zero ncaa tournaments and got zero national accolades?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:25:40 PM
Ok. Out of curiosity would you consider
first and second team all big east and being the leading scorer on teams to be a bigger achievement than 2x honorable mention?
Is second team old big east a bigger achievement than first team CUSA?
Is Second team big east bigger than CUSA 6th man of the year/freshman of the year?
Is first and second team all big east over 3 years a bigger deal than second team all big east over 4 years?
You place too much importance on all conference teams.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:28:32 PM
You place too much importance on all conference teams.
So you're saying collegiate accolades which are a direct indicator of individual success isn't your barometer for retirement? What would you say is?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:30:50 PM
So you're saying collegiate accolades which are a direct indicator of individual success isn't your barometer for retirement? What would you say is?
My opinion.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:32:05 PM
My opinion.
Which is what I said in the first place, to which you said "nah". I apologize for thinking you were trying to engage in a data driven debate about individuals deserving their jersey retired.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:35:38 PM
Which is what I said in the first place, to which you said "nah". I apologize for thinking you were trying to engage in a data driven debate about individuals deserving their jersey retired.
I'm not interested in engaging in a debate with someone who believes DJO is rafter-worthy.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:38:05 PM
I'm not interested in engaging in a debate with someone who believes DJO is rafter-worthy.
Which is not what I said. Based on the list provided I said I'd add him. I'm sorry you're misinterpreting my stance.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:40:09 PM
Which is not what I said. Based on the list provided I said I'd add him. I'm sorry you're misinterpreting my stance.
Maybe you should be more clear.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:41:28 PM
Maybe you should be more clear.
My responsibility isn't to ensure that for each of my posts the Hippie Satan of Hyperbole doesn't jump to conclusions. If you wanted clarity then a friendly request for clarification is always welcome.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 18, 2024, 01:42:49 PM
My responsibility isn't to ensure that for each of my posts the Hippie Satan of Hyperbole doesn't jump to conclusions. If you wanted clarity then a friendly request for clarification is always welcome.
It's not your responsibility to make your position clear?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 18, 2024, 01:44:17 PM
It's not your responsibility to make your position clear?
Not to specifically meet your needs. If most of the other posters understood and you did not then as I said a friendly request for clarification is always welcome Sultan.
Back to the discussion at hand. I would love to see a substitution. Chones jersey goes up, Rivers jersey comes down. I suffered through those years, and other than nailing Marotta's girlfriend and one half court shot, Rivers did not accomplish squat.
PJDunn
I agree 100% with you. Great call on your part.
Quote from: PJDunn on October 18, 2024, 01:54:20 PM
Back to the discussion at hand. I would love to see a substitution. Chones jersey goes up, Rivers jersey comes down. I suffered through those years, and other than nailing Marotta's girlfriend and one half court shot, Rivers did not accomplish squat.
I was there as well. He certainly had talent, but when his jersey was retired I wasn't sold on it either.
This might be time for us to honor Apollo 11 again.
Quote from: romey on October 18, 2024, 02:13:41 PM
I was there as well. He certainly had talent, but when his jersey was retired I wasn't sold on it either.
I was there, too. Agree with you both. He is there more for his post-MU career. Alot of guys with better MU careers are not up there. Of course I would never want to take it down.
I am against Chones going up. I can't get past leaving during a season and costing us a shot at a potential final four/championship. Less than two seasons in the uniform and only eligible for one postseason doesn't do it for me. Just one meaningful NCAA tournament win and that was over Miami (Ohio). He also participated in the regional consolation win over Kentucky. I'm not upset about it or anything, but I just don't think that is enough.
Congratulations to him, anyway!
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 18, 2024, 02:43:40 PM
I was there, too. Agree with you both. He is there more for his post-MU career. Alot of guys with better MU careers are not up there. Of course I would never want to take it down.
I am against Chones going up. I can't get past leaving during a season and costing us a shot at a potential final four/championship. Less than two seasons in the uniform and only eligible for one postseason doesn't do it for me. Just one meaningful NCAA tournament win and that was over Miami (Ohio). He also participated in the regional consolation win over Kentucky. I'm not upset about it or anything, but I just don't think that is enough.
Congratulations to him, anyway!
Maybe you should've stocked his fridge for him, then.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 18, 2024, 03:00:54 PM
Maybe you should've stocked his fridge for him, then.
He could've played a couple more months and got paid by the NBA, although he probably didn't know it at the time. They accepted undergrads for the first time that year.
I knew someone would reply with this, and I have no problem with him leaving early to make money for his family. But I do think it left his career short of what it needed to be to have his number in the rafters.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 18, 2024, 02:43:40 PM
I am against Chones going up. I can't get past leaving during a season and costing us a shot at a potential final four/championship. Less than two seasons in the uniform and only eligible for one postseason doesn't do it for me. Just one meaningful NCAA tournament win and that was over Miami (Ohio). He also participated in the regional consolation win over Kentucky. I'm not upset about it or anything, but I just don't think that is enough.
Congratulations to him, anyway!
Jim Chones was a game changer for Marquette. Like Dean and George before him, he helped make Marquette the beast of the Midwest. The team nobody wanted to play. Ever.
Would we have recruited Bo, Butch, Maurice, Lloyd, Glenn and many others without Mr. Chones? Maybe, but his presence at Marquette made it easier for Coach McGuire to get who he wanted. When he was here, we were almost unbeatable.
At the time he turned pro, we were like 19-0 and ranked either 1 or 2 in the country. After he left, we lost to Detroit 70-49 in a horrible, disjointed game.
Had we had NIL in those days or had Coach McGuire had his version of Sam Gilbert at UCLA, Mr. Chones might have stayed. Had he stayed, we may well have had one, maybe two more Nattys. I can imagine a front life of Maurice Lucas, Larry McNeill and Jim Chones, with Lloyd and Marcus Washington as guards. We might have been the teamed that tamed Bill Walton. That would have been fun to watch.
Brother CT, my suspicion has been that your feeling about Mr. Chones is far more prevalent than mine. Before I knew more, I used to call what Mr. Chones did "the defection." I remember being furious when he left but I was thinking of myself and my desire for us to be the absolute best, not what Mr. Chones' needs or his family's needs were. Your view, and my old view, was likely the reason why his jersey took so long to make the rafters.
Again, thank you Mr. Chones for what you did for Marquette and the happiness you brought while you were here.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 18, 2024, 02:43:40 PM
I was there, too. Agree with you both. He is there more for his post-MU career. Alot of guys with better MU careers are not up there. Of course I would never want to take it down.
I am against Chones going up. I can't get past leaving during a season and costing us a shot at a potential final four/championship. Less than two seasons in the uniform and only eligible for one postseason doesn't do it for me. Just one meaningful NCAA tournament win and that was over Miami (Ohio). He also participated in the regional consolation win over Kentucky. I'm not upset about it or anything, but I just don't think that is enough.
Congratulations to him, anyway!
This is a fair take. You're not saying Chones lacked good reasons to leave when he did. You're simply saying that he didn't play enough games for Marquette or help the team achieve enough success while he was in a Marquette uniform, and it's hard to dispute those assertions. FWIW, I'm fine either way on his jersey being retired.
Isn't lack of team success the main reason that the posters that don't want Markus' jersey/number retired cite? Curious that a lot of those posters seem to be fine with Chones getting the nod. Personally I'm fine with both being up there, with TKO following shortly, but don't think anyone else has the resume to warrant the honor.
Doc is only up there because Crean fell in love with his celebrity.
This is a #mubb award. There's nothing wrong with #mubb fans holding it to a high standard.
Quote from: The Lens on October 19, 2024, 06:01:00 AM
Doc is only up there because Crean fell in love with his celebrity.
This is a #mubb award. There's nothing wrong with #mubb fans holding it to a high standard.
TC also wanted his son (the one who didn't play in the NBA) at MU.
I never saw Chones play. Before my time. But when I hear the story of Al looking in his refrigerator and telling Chones to go pro in mid-season, I wonder what might have been if NIL was a thing 50+ years ago. And I marvel that Al didn't 'know a booster' that could hook the kid up.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 18, 2024, 10:22:03 AM
Jim Chones was transformative, the way Dean the Dream and George Thompson.
Degree or no degree, this is long overdue.
Congratulations Jim, and thank you!
amen! 49-1 in his 50 games!
How many of you who are advocating for other MU greats in the rafters were actually alive when Jim Chones was at Marquette?
I suspect not many. Those of us who were there know the impact Mr. Chones had. We were a good team before Mr. Chones arrived. We were an elite team afterward. He was a game changer. The fact that we were crestfallen when he turned pro is endemic of what he meant to us.
My feelings are well known about Markus. I'm not going to rehash them here. There's a few other folks that deserve jersey retirement, notably TKO, because they were gamechangers for our program.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 07:56:43 AM
How many of you who are advocating for other MU greats in the rafters were actually alive when Jim Chones was at Marquette?
I suspect not many. Those of us who were there know the impact Mr. Chones had. We were a good team before Mr. Chones arrived. We were an elite team afterward. He was a game changer. The fact that we were crestfallen when he turned pro is endemic of what he meant to us.
My feelings are well known about Markus. I'm not going to rehash them here. There's a few other folks that deserve jersey retirement, notably TKO, because they were gamechangers for our program.
Is anyone saying Chones shouldn't be up there? If anything it should have happened years ago.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 19, 2024, 07:58:54 AM
If anything it should have happened years ago.
Brother Hippie:
You and I are on the same page with this point.
The fact that it took so damn long is reflective of a lot of people who are still hurting about the way he left.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 08:01:41 AM
Brother Hippie:
You and I are on the same page with this point.
The fact that it took so damn long is reflective of a lot of people who are still hurting about the way he left.
Nobody at Marquette has cared how he left for decades
Yeah I think it was the lack of a degree thing for a while, and then I just think he was overlooked. No one around cares how he left. That was 50 years ago!
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 07:33:03 AM
I never saw Chones play. Before my time. But when I hear the story of Al looking in his refrigerator and telling Chones to go pro in mid-season, I wonder what might have been if NIL was a thing 50+ years ago. And I marvel that Al didn't 'know a booster' that could hook the kid up.
Most dominant big man ever at MU, second best player at that time, Bill Walton was better. Chones wanted to finish the season, it was a shame Al did not let that happen, quit like in February
So the season was almost done. As a fan, it was disappointing!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2024, 08:02:54 AM
Nobody at Marquette has cared how he left for decades
I don't think that's true.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2024, 08:02:54 AM
Nobody at Marquette has cared how he left for decades
Brother Rico:
Are you kidding me??????????Most fans of that era who are still alive just don't talk about it. The situation was too painful.
If we didn't care, Mr. Chones' jersey would have been retired in 1985 or so.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 08:09:38 AM
Brother Rico:
Are you kidding me??????????
Most fans of that era who are still alive just don't talk about it. The situation was too painful.
If we didn't care, Mr. Chones' jersey would have been retired in 1985 or so.
So, all the administrations of the last 30+ years have said no to it? Come on.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2024, 08:11:24 AM
So, all the administrations of the last 30+ years have said no to it? Come on.
NO, the memories of what could and probably should have been were too painful.
I believe administrators didn't want to reopen the Chones matter.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 08:13:39 AM
NO, the memories of what could and probably should have been were too painful.
I believe administrators didn't want to reopen the Chones matter.
Well, I'll defer to the older gen of Marquette fans but if that's the case, what a bunch of snowflakes
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 18, 2024, 03:18:56 PM
Jim Chones was a game changer for Marquette. When he was here, we were almost unbeatable.
Again, thank you Mr. Chones for what you did for Marquette and the happiness you brought while you were here.
Amen.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 08:13:39 AM
NO, the memories of what could and probably should have been were too painful.
I believe administrators didn't want to reopen the Chones matter.
That's absurd. Nobody has cared for a long time.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 19, 2024, 08:56:01 AM
That's absurd. Nobody has cared for a long time.
I don't know, if you told me there were some wealthy septuagenarians still fueled by grievances from 40-50 years ago tying up the system, that feels believable.
I'm with you Brew. People get unreasonably mad about silly things. All it takes is one or two of the right boosters. I don't know it's the case but it's certainly plausible.
While certainly possible, that situation feels very doubtful to me.
And if that was the case, I'm extremely disappointed in Marquette for caving like that.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 19, 2024, 09:34:45 AM
While certainly possible, that situation feels very doubtful to me.
And if that was the case, I'm extremely disappointed in Marquette for caving like that.
How often does the topic even come up? Maybe every 5-10 years? And if those donors were also board members reinforcing past criteria like postseason accomplishments and a diploma, is it that far fetched? It's not like this has been a constant cry from the fans going unresolved.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 19, 2024, 10:39:12 AM
How often does the topic even come up? Maybe every 5-10 years? And if those donors were also board members reinforcing past criteria like postseason accomplishments and a diploma, is it that far fetched? It's not like this has been a constant cry from the fans going unresolved.
He did graduate in 1999.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 19, 2024, 10:39:12 AM
How often does the topic even come up? Maybe every 5-10 years? And if those donors were also board members reinforcing past criteria like postseason accomplishments and a diploma, is it that far fetched? It's not like this has been a constant cry from the fans going unresolved.
Yes. It's far fetched.
I have no strong opinion either way about Chones. A name of legend for me. I have no objection to hanging more jerseys. But in the name of consistency... and because it is sometimes fun to play devil's advocate...
Why hang a jersey for a guy who never won anything and went pro in the middle of his second season, leaving his teammates in the lurch?
Marquette was 50-1 in games Chones played. If not for multiple bad calls against Dean Meminger vs Ohio State, that record would be 51-0. His family was dirt poor. He didn't desert his team, he followed the advice of his coach and mentor. This is long overdue. Anyone who has a problem with that he left or how he left needs to get over it.
I have no problem. I wasn't there. Just like I have no opinion of Kojis or George Thompson. I get that he was poor. Hence my earlier reference to the legendary empty refrigerator story and NIL contemplation. But, he won nothing and left midseason. Those are facts, too.
So, what is the standard? Is there one?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 11:32:36 AM
Marquette was 50-1 in games Chones played. If not for multiple bad calls against Dean Meminger vs Ohio State, that record would be 51-0. His family was dirt poor. He didn't desert his team, he followed the advice of his coach and mentor. This is long overdue. Anyone who has a problem with that he left or how he left needs to get over it.
Nailed it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 11:32:36 AM
Marquette was 50-1 in games Chones played. If not for multiple bad calls against Dean Meminger vs Ohio State, that record would be 51-0.
Brother Tower:
You can cite a lot of statistics but this is the one that mattered. Never before or since has a Marquette University basketball team performed like that.
Mike Mills, Mr. Chones' replacement, was a serviceable center but he wasn't Mr. Chones. He could not lead our team as Mr. Chones did.
You can talk about scoring titles, about BEast POYs and as many statistics as you want. But 50-1 says it all. I suspect there isn't a Scooper today that wouldn't settle for a 50-1 record in the next two years!
If we go 50-1 over the next 51 games, I'd put the whole team in the rafters — and Coach Shaka too!
So, no standards.
How is Chones leaving for the NBA substantively different than kids today transferring for more NIL money?
Other than timing, how is Bennett substantively different from Coach McGuire? Both felt burned out and didn't like where the game was heading.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 12:29:54 PM
How is Chones leaving for the NBA substantively different than kids today transferring for more NIL money?
Other than timing, how is Bennett substantively different from Coach McGuire? Both felt burned out and didn't like where the game was heading.
It isn't. If one of our guys stayed two years and was the core of a 50-1 team, if he's not up there it would be sinful.
50-1 is the standard.
dgies
You are 100% correct. Silly that this topic is even being debated.
Brother Goose:
We were there. We know!
Funny, I remember being told for years that the only thing that matters is March success. November/December wins mean nothing. How the goal posts have shifted.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 12:29:54 PM
So, no standards.
How is Chones leaving for the NBA substantively different than kids today transferring for more NIL money?
Other than timing, how is Bennett substantively different from Coach McGuire? Both felt burned out and didn't like where the game was heading.
Al was a charming free spirit whose life was not defined by basketball or being a coach. He had lots of interests and things he liked to do besides basketball.
I don't think anyone would confuse Bennett with these traits. I think reasons for their exits were mostly for very different reasons.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 19, 2024, 01:13:44 PM
Funny, I remember being told for years that the only thing that matters is March success. November/December wins mean nothing. How the goal posts have shifted.
Brother DJ:
We were badly screwed in Athens, GA in 1971. Lot of theories as to why (perhaps Adolph the Bigot whispered) but the fact was that game against tOSU was the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
Too many people fighting against what Marquette stood for. Lots of coaches hated our physical style of play, especially teams in finess leagues.
Please read what I said earlier about what Mr. Chones meant to us.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 19, 2024, 10:56:18 AM
Yes. It's far fetched.
About as far fetched as Donald Trump becoming president.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 01:21:58 PM
Brother DJ:
We were badly screwed in Athens, GA in 1971. Lot of theories as to why (perhaps Adolph the Bigot whispered) but the fact was that game against tOSU was the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
Too many people fighting against what Marquette stood for. Lots of coaches hated our physical style of play, especially teams in finess leagues.
Please read what I said earlier about what Mr. Chones meant to us.
Please read what I wrote earlier when I said that he should be honored the way he will be.
What I find hilariously ironic is that when discussing something where there is no set standard on what accomplishments someone needs to receive this honor, posters will cite statistics that reinforce their view that a player should/should not be recognized, and then completely ignore those exact same statistics when discussing another player.
Also, complaining about refs 50 years after the fact is pretty pathetic. Say it to the players in the moment if they play better with a chip on their shoulder, but carrying onto it for decades is just petty.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 12:29:54 PM
So, no standards.
How is Chones leaving for the NBA substantively different than kids today transferring for more NIL money?
Other than timing, how is Bennett substantively different from Coach McGuire? Both felt burned out and didn't like where the game was heading.
Chones did not not go to another school and he did get his MU degree in 1999 and he he left mostly at Al's behest. Re Al, he said he was retiring at the end of the season...far different than just walking away almost 2 months into the school year.
As I said, other than timing. Both burned out. Both unhappy with where the game was headed
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 19, 2024, 01:28:33 PM
Please read what I wrote earlier when I said that he should be honored the way he will be.
What I find hilariously ironic is that when discussing something where there is no set standard on what accomplishments someone needs to receive this honor, posters will cite statistics that reinforce their view that a player should/should not be recognized, and then completely ignore those exact same statistics when discussing another player.
Also, complaining about refs 50 years after the fact is pretty pathetic. Say it to the players in the moment if they play better with a chip on their shoulder, but carrying onto it for decades is just petty.
I'll take the Fail Mary in Seattle to my grave. Egregiously bad officiating masquerading as being fair and impartial has that effect. Being a true fan is all about passion, win or lose.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 01:34:58 PM
As I said, other than timing. Both burned out. Both unhappy with where the game was headed
Dramatically different timing though. Al mostly wanted to pursue other avenues in life and felt underpaid.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 01:21:58 PM
Brother DJ:
We were badly screwed in Athens, GA in 1971. Lot of theories as to why (perhaps Adolph the Bigot whispered) but the fact was that game against tOSU was the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
We had 19 fouls called on us. They had 17 fouls called on them. I'm willing to believe it was a badly reffed game, but a foul disparity of 2 is likely not the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
FTR, I support Chones jersey bring retired.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 01:11:57 PM
Brother Goose:
We were there. We know!
I wasn't there and agree. If he was that dominant of a force, and no one is disagreeing that he was (very telling), hang the banner.
There is nuance to all these arguments for player's numbers being hung in the rafters. 50-1 seems to steam roll nuance.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 AM
I have no problem. I wasn't there. Just like I have no opinion of Kojis or George Thompson. I get that he was poor. Hence my earlier reference to the legendary empty refrigerator story and NIL contemplation. But, he won nothing and left midseason. Those are facts, too.
So, what is the standard? Is there one?
By that standard only the guys who played on the 77 team should have their Jerseys retired.
During the last decade on Scoop, there seemingly have been dozens of "worst officiated games in Marquette history."
The refs hate us. That's just science.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 19, 2024, 01:52:17 PM
By that standard only the guys who played on the 77 team should have their Jerseys retired.
Yup. I don't care if Chones jersey is in the rafters. Good for him and good for MU.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 19, 2024, 01:45:52 PM
We had 19 fouls called on us. They had 17 fouls called on them. I'm willing to believe it was a badly reffed game, but a foul disparity of 2 is likely not the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
FTR, I support Chones jersey bring retired.
The issue was definitely not the number of fouls but the very questionable offensive fouls called on Dean Meminger that led to him fouling out with the game on the line.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 01:34:58 PM
As I said, other than timing. Both burned out. Both unhappy with where the game was headed
This is the second time you've asserted that McGuire was "unhappy with where the game was going". This is false. Al loved where the game was going and celebrated it for years as a broadcaster. He just didn't want to coach anymore.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 19, 2024, 01:22:02 PM
About as far fetched as Donald Trump becoming president.
Whoops! See you after November 5th. You must have missed Rocky's edict.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 11:32:36 AM
Marquette was 50-1 in games Chones played. If not for multiple bad calls against Dean Meminger vs Ohio State, that record would be 51-0. His family was dirt poor. He didn't desert his team, he followed the advice of his coach and mentor. This is long overdue. Anyone who has a problem with that he left or how he left needs to get over it.
Solid and spot on, per usual, Lenny Man! Also, Al showed us, time and time again, that he was a visionary and so far ahead of his time, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 19, 2024, 02:51:01 PM
Solid and spot on, per usual, Lenny Man! Also, Al showed us, time and time again, that he was a visionary and so far ahead of his time, hey?
Huh.
Follow along Fluffy BM. Doesn't get much easier to comprehend than this. Basically elementary stuff, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on October 19, 2024, 01:53:00 PM
During the last decade on Scoop, there seemingly have been dozens of "worst officiated games in Marquette history."
The refs hate us. That's just science.
Honestly, I've rarely complained about refs. But the tOSU game in 1971 is the only one in which we were screwed. Even the Miami of Ohio game in 1978, we did it to ourselves.
You adjust to refs and hope they are consistent. Good or bad. Im not sure we could have that day.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 02:26:20 PM
This is the second time you've asserted that McGuire was "unhappy with where the game was going". This is false. Al loved where the game was going and celebrated it for years as a broadcaster. He just didn't want to coach anymore.
I just reread the chapter in the the Pipines book where Majerus talks about Al. All Majerus quotes
...after 26 years, he was looking for a change
...he admitted he had lost interest in the game.
...He didn't feel appreciated by the administration at Marquette. It was time for him to quit anyway, but it felt like a magical moment.
Majerus, quoting Al, 'I couldn't have made it today.'
George Thompson: As far as the Big East, that's the reason Al quit.
...Al was just basically fed up with the game from the standpoint of all the stuff a college coach had to do.
I guess that book is where I got that idea.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 19, 2024, 01:52:17 PM
By that standard only the guys who played on the 77 team should have their Jerseys retired.
That's not quite true it'd create a mandate where you'd have to have been on a conference championship team or team that made a FF (which is referred to as a regional championship) that limits us to anyone on 74 77 94 97 03 13 23 which is plenty of great players.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 03:25:51 PM
I just reread the chapter in the the Pipines book where Majerus talks about Al. All Majerus quotes
...after 26 years, he was looking for a change
...he admitted he had lost interest in the game.
...He didn't feel appreciated by the administration at Marquette. It was time for him to quit anyway, but it felt like a magical moment.
Majerus, quoting Al, 'I couldn't have made it today.'
George Thompson: As far as the Big East, that's the reason Al quit.
...Al was just basically fed up with the game from the standpoint of all the stuff a college coach had to do.
I guess that book is where I got that idea.
???
After 26 years, looking for a change.
Lost interest in coaching.
Didn't feel appreciated by the administration.
Fed up with all the stuff a coach had to do.
Years later, "I couldn't have made it today".
None of this indicates someone who's had it with where the game was going. 1,2 and 4 are a guy just tired of coaching. 3 is a guy pissed at MU. 5 is a guy saying sometime in the future that he wouldn't fit in with how the game was then (in the future).
How you got the idea you got reading that book I don't know.
Al never liked anything about coaching but the games - he ditched practice on a regular basis and left most of the teaching to Hank. He was 47 years old, pretty well off financially and had other, more lucrative opportunities. He'd spent enough years being happy at his job 30+ days a year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 02:34:55 PM
Whoops! See you after November 5th. You must have missed Rocky's edict.
Nothing in my DMs, nothing in the site rules thread, and I don't read every thread on here. If there's an edict, it wasn't made public very far or wide. 🤷♂️
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2024, 01:34:58 PM
As I said, other than timing. Both burned out. Both unhappy with where the game was headed
Other than timing??? The only complaint is the timing!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 19, 2024, 03:18:02 PM
Follow along Fluffy BM. Doesn't get much easier to comprehend than this. Basically elementary stuff, aina?
It's just ironic. That's all.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 03:58:03 PM
???
After 26 years, looking for a change.
Lost interest in coaching.
Didn't feel appreciated by the administration.
Fed up with all the stuff a coach had to do.
Years later, "I couldn't have made it today".
None of this indicates someone who's had it with where the game was going. 1,2 and 4 are a guy just tired of coaching. 3 is a guy pissed at MU. 5 is a guy saying sometime in the future that he wouldn't fit in with how the game was then (in the future).
How you got the idea you got reading that book I don't know.
Al never liked anything about coaching but the games - he ditched practice on a regular basis and left most of the teaching to Hank. He was 47 years old, pretty well off financially and had other, more lucrative opportunities. He'd spent enough years being happy at his job 30+ days a year.
The least surprising thing is that we would disagree on this.
Al quit bc he wanted to make some real money. He thought Medalist was his ticket. Turns out that it was TV & speaking fees.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2024, 03:58:03 PM
???
After 26 years, looking for a change.
Lost interest in coaching.
Didn't feel appreciated by the administration.
Fed up with all the stuff a coach had to do.
Years later, "I couldn't have made it today".
None of this indicates someone who's had it with where the game was going. 1,2 and 4 are a guy just tired of coaching. 3 is a guy pissed at MU. 5 is a guy saying sometime in the future that he wouldn't fit in with how the game was then (in the future).
How you got the idea you got reading that book I don't know.
Al never liked anything about coaching but the games - he ditched practice on a regular basis and left most of the teaching to Hank. He was 47 years old, pretty well off financially and had other, more lucrative opportunities. He'd spent enough years being happy at his job 30+ days a year.
Yup, he just wanted to do something else in life and wanted to make more money. Medalist provided that opportunity but he diverted then to TV.
The interesting thing about Jim Chones and Marquette is that he had committed to Michigan State and opened up his recruiting after the Michigan State head coach died. Those were Chones words at the reunion. I think he also said Marquette hadn't shown much interest in him up to this point.
I'm asking because I was too young to follow Marquette in 1969. Is this true that Al McGuire hadn't shown much interest in Chones until the spring of his senior year after he decommitted? Hard for me to believe with Marquette only 30 miles away and in that era where Marquette recruited the Catholic Conference pretty hard. Al had his own son in the same recruiting class.
Would love to hear about this recruiting.
It's definitely a bummer to not have seen how the rest of the year would have gone if Chines stayed. However, the looking in the refrigerator story is one of those things that makes Al the legend he was. The whole using basketball and not letting it use you.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 19, 2024, 01:45:52 PM
We had 19 fouls called on us. They had 17 fouls called on them. I'm willing to believe it was a badly reffed game, but a foul disparity of 2 is likely not the worst reffed game in Marquette history.
FTR, I support Chones jersey bring retired.
when were you born, 1990? Commenting based on an on-line stat sheet? Some of the fouls called on MU were ridiculous. The discrepancy was not the issue...it was what was called.
Quote from: Nukem2 on October 19, 2024, 02:17:58 PM
The issue was definitely not the number of fouls but the very questionable offensive fouls called on Dean Meminger that led to him fouling out with the game on the line.
I should have read your comment before posting. You are 100% correct.
Retiring Jim Chones jersey is a no brainer. 50 wins 1 loss, nba player, leading scorer and rebounder on great teams. If you don't have Chones, do you get McNeil, Lucas, Ellis etc?
He was a very important foundational piece in marquette's success, in an important time in the formation of the nba's success.
Quote from: TedBaxter on October 20, 2024, 09:19:13 AM
The interesting thing about Jim Chones and Marquette is that he had committed to Michigan State and opened up his recruiting after the Michigan State head coach died. Those were Chones words at the reunion. I think he also said Marquette hadn't shown much interest in him up to this point.
I'm asking because I was too young to follow Marquette in 1969. Is this true that Al McGuire hadn't shown much interest in Chones until the spring of his senior year after he decommitted? Hard for me to believe with Marquette only 30 miles away and in that era where Marquette recruited the Catholic Conference pretty hard. Al had his own son in the same recruiting class.
Would love to hear about this recruiting.
I honestly don't remember much news on Jim's recruiting. Back in those days recruiting rankings were pretty much non existent and so was news on the subject. Fans basically found out things after the fact. I do recall it was us and MSU for Chones but did not know he had committed to MSU. Hard to believe Al wasn't all in - he valued the "aircraft carrier" and Chones was the best one he ever had.
Don't know that he actually committed to MSU but rather leaning that way to go away from home until his dad got cancer and he decided to stay closer to home. Per an SI archived article, George Thompson then convinced Jim on his visit to go to MU.
Quote from: Nukem2 on October 20, 2024, 01:44:11 PM
Don't know that he actually committed to MSU but rather leaning that way to go away from home until his dad got cancer and he decided to stay closer to home. Per an SI archived article, George Thompson then convinced Jim on his visit to go to MU.
Chones actually comitted to Michigan State but the coach died so he opened it backup.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 19, 2024, 01:11:57 PM
Brother Goose:
We were there. We know!
I was there also. While Marquette had already earned the respect of college bball fans, with Chones we had become the top college team. If I recall, we were preseason #1 and the early favorite to win the natty. Good thing I was young when I heard the news, or I might have had a coronary. I remember being first in shock, then numb.
This is a case of "you had to be there!". I think that's the reason for the disconnect with some of the younger scoopers here.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 20, 2024, 04:40:41 PM
I was there also. While Marquette had already earned the respect of college bball fans, with Chones we had become the top college team. If I recall, we were preseason #1 and the early favorite to win the natty. Good thing I was young when I heard the news, or I might have had a coronary. I remember being first in shock, then numb.
This is a case of "you had to be there!". I think that's the reason for the disconnect with some of the younger scoopers here.
Not sure there is a disconnect. I think people are being obtuse.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 20, 2024, 04:45:39 PM
Not sure there is a disconnect. I think people are being obtuse.
Some are, but some who weren't there (like Lens) really know the history.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2024, 04:57:54 PM
Some are, but some who weren't there (like Lens) really know the history.
Agree Lenny. One of the greatest players from the greatest era of MU basketball. Knowing what we know of modern basketball (NIL and going pro early) makes it even a more modern argument and no brainer for his number to be up there.
Quote from: Goose on October 19, 2024, 01:07:15 PM
dgies
You are 100% correct. Silly that this topic is even being debated.
I don't think anyone disagrees that Chones should have his number up there. Tower is just pointing out that dgies isn't being consistent with his criteria between Chones and Howard.
I said right up front that I had no problem with Chones jersey going up and was simply playing devil's adcovate. It was fun.
I never mentioned Markus.
Sometimes, the simplest questions get the most entertaining answers.
Those who are pro chines retirement should Kentucky retire Towns' or Booker's jerseys?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 20, 2024, 06:35:55 PM
Those who are pro chines retirement should Kentucky retire Towns' or Booker's jerseys?
No. Not even close.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2024, 07:37:38 PM
No. Not even close.
So 38-1 and FF is a "not even close", but 50-1 with no major hardware is a for sure yes and anyone who's ever questioned it is a lunatic?
I'm apathetic on the matter for what it's worth.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 20, 2024, 08:37:42 PM
So 38-1 and FF is a "not even close", but 50-1 with no major hardware is a for sure yes and anyone who's ever questioned it is a lunatic?
I'm apathetic on the matter for what it's worth.
They both averaged 10 points. Booker 2 rebounds, Townes 6.7. They were really good part time players. Booker didn't even start! Chones was a star - a 1st team All American.
Jerome Whitehead, Jim Boylan (National Champs) and Marcus Washington (National runner up) would be miles ahead of Booker and Townes for jersey hanging. And they're way behind Chones. So yeah, suggesting those 2 (Booker and Townes) are in Jimmy C's league in this regard is lunacy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2024, 08:59:41 PM
They both averaged 10 points. Booker 2 rebounds, Townes 6.7. They were really good part time players. Chinese was a star.
Jerome Whitehead, Jim Boylan (National Champs) and Marcus Washington (National runner up) would be miles ahead of Booker and Townes for jersey hanging. And they're way behind Chones. So yeah, suggesting those 2 (Booker and Townes) are in Jimmy C's league in this regard is lunacy.
KAT was a second team all American... ppg with that much talent isn't a great barometer of how impactful they were
Quote from: Nukem2 on October 19, 2024, 02:17:58 PM
The issue was definitely not the number of fouls but the very questionable offensive fouls called on Dean Meminger that led to him fouling out with the game on the line.
I didn't see the calls, and as far as I know they aren't online. So I'll accept that the calls on Meminger may have been atrocious. Maybe even the most atrocious calls in MU history. I just don't see any way that it was the "worst reffed game in MU history". Especially when I've seen one where we were outshot from the FT line 49-19 and another one where the refs decided that traveling doesn't exist anymore because PC can't afford a proper stadium.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 20, 2024, 10:12:22 PM
KAT was a second team all American... ppg with that much talent isn't a great barometer of how impactful they were
At least they made a Final Four
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2024, 04:57:54 PM
Some are, but some who weren't there (like Lens) really know the history.
Thank you. Helps to know people with a front row seat.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 20, 2024, 05:23:15 PM
I don't think anyone disagrees that Chones should have his number up there. Tower is just pointing out that dgies isn't being consistent with his criteria between Chones and Howard.
That's not correct. The standard I've suggested from the beginning -- including the Markus Howard debate -- is whether the player was "transformative."
Transformative for this application is defined as a player or group of players who because of their commitment to and body of work for Marquette, led the basketball team or the university to greater heights than it was before they arrived.
This is the standard by which Mr. Chones is in the rafters. I could argue Glenn Rivers,
while at Marquette was not transformative and therefore didn't belong with a retired jersey. His body of work since really has carried him, including a stint on our Board of Trustees. I guess where I disagree with some who question me on standards is I would expect for someone to be in the rafters, their strong personal stat sheet had to lead the university to someplace it previously not been.
That, obviously, penalizes players who played for bad teams or bad coaches and had great stat sheets.
Maybe Buzz should be up there! ;D . OK, that's a bit much, I agree.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 21, 2024, 08:40:26 AM
That's not correct. The standard I've suggested from the beginning -- including the Markus Howard debate -- is whether the player was "transformative."
Transformative for this application is defined as a player or group of players who because of their commitment to and body of work for Marquette, led the basketball team or the university to greater heights than it was before they arrived.
This is the standard by which Mr. Chones is in the rafters. I could argue Glenn Rivers, while at Marquette was not transformative and therefore didn't belong with a retired jersey. His body of work since really has carried him, including a stint on our Board of Trustees. I guess where I disagree with some who question me on standards is I would expect for someone to be in the rafters, their strong personal stat sheet had to lead the university to someplace it previously not been.
That, obviously, penalizes players who played for bad teams or bad coaches and had great stat sheets.
Maybe Buzz should be up there! ;D . OK, that's a bit much, I agree.
And yet I haven't seen you advocating for Terry Rand.
Just say that you're overly biased to the Al era. That's totally fine, and no one would care, but throwing all this pretzel logic out there to try to justify it makes you look silly.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 21, 2024, 08:40:26 AM
That's not correct. The standard I've suggested from the beginning -- including the Markus Howard debate -- is whether the player was "transformative."
Transformative for this application is defined as a player or group of players who because of their commitment to and body of work for Marquette, led the basketball team or the university to greater heights than it was before they arrived.
So Jim Chones was "transformative" because he ended Marquette's one year NCAA drought, but Markus Howard wasn't "transformative" because he ended Marquette's four year NCAA drought?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 21, 2024, 08:56:53 AM
So Jim Chones was "transformative" because he ended Marquette's one year NCAA drought, but Markus Howard wasn't "transformative" because he ended Marquette's four year NCAA drought?
Markus being a two time AA isn't "new heights" because Butch did it 40 years earlier, therefore Markus' achievements are not noteworthy.
Are we just trolling Dgies? Chones clearly belongs up there more than anyone besides maybe TKO. I think Markus deserves it too, but after Chones for sure
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 21, 2024, 09:01:47 AM
Are we just trolling Dgies? Chones clearly belongs up there more than anyone besides maybe TKO. I think Markus deserves it too, but after Chones for sure
I 100% think Chones should be there. I just think the dialouge around him deserving it, versus other players, feels vibes and nostalgia based.
#0 can't carry #22's Bike, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2024, 09:34:12 AM
#0 can't carry #22's Bike, aina?
That's true. He didn't quit on a program and leave another at the altar. But he played well against plumbers and dentists
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2024, 09:34:12 AM
#0 can't carry #22's Bike, aina?
While its hard to compare across eras and different positions, I think Chones is the better player. He had the longer NBA career too.
But I don't think its as far apart as you are portraying. Chones had the better coach and had more talent around him. But both were considered amongst the best playing the game during their respective eras.
Yep. Markus with competent coaching and development would have won a ton of games. People view the lack of success as a result of his playstyle, when really he was the only reason we were any good for those few years.
Sam was obviously a good player as well but his ceiling was always going to be complementary piece.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 21, 2024, 08:56:53 AM
So Jim Chones was "transformative" because he ended Marquette's one year NCAA drought, but Markus Howard wasn't "transformative" because he ended Marquette's four year NCAA drought?
Are you in a NCAA tourney drought when you refuse an invitation?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 21, 2024, 12:56:41 PM
Are you in a NCAA tourney drought when you refuse an invitation?
Ah. Of course. That slipped my mind.
So they practically were not in a drought. Jim Chones "transformed" Marquette from a program that turned down an NCAA invite and won the NIT, to one that lost in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 21, 2024, 01:00:42 PM
Ah. Of course. That slipped my mind.
So they practically were not in a drought. Jim Chones "transformed" Marquette from a program that turned down an NCAA invite and won the NIT, to one that lost in the NCAA tournament.
We had already been transformed into a consistent top 10 team. Jimmy transformed us into a team that was #1 or #2 team - somewhere Marquette had never been before and very, very rarely been since. So yes, he was transformative.
Huh. We were a top ten team with Markus Howard too, but was told that was meaningless because we didn't win anything. ;)
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 21, 2024, 03:12:01 PM
Huh. We were a top ten team with Markus Howard too, but was told that was meaningless because we didn't win anything. ;)
Markus played here what? 85 weeks? How many of those were spent in the top 10? In year 1 BC (before Chones) we won the NIT and FINISHED the season #6. The prior year we made the Elite 8 and were a Rick Mount 25' overtime jump shot from the FF. We were established asa program. Chones took us to the next level.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 21, 2024, 03:21:58 PM
Markus played here what? 85 weeks? How many of those were spent in the top 10? In year 1 BC (before Chones) we won the NIT and FINISHED the season #6. The prior year we made the Elite 8 and were a Rick Mount 25' overtime jump shot from the FF. We were established asa program. Chones took us to the next level.
I was winking for a reason.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 21, 2024, 03:25:28 PM
I was winking for a reason.
Sorry, I don't do emojis - my old eyes can't tell one from another!
#22 would have been the consensus #1 pick in the draft. #0 barely made a roster. But hey, its not his fault that he stood 5'9", hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2024, 03:56:00 PM
#22 would have been the consensus #1 pick in the draft. #0 barely made a roster. But hey, its not his fault that he stood 5'9", hey?
Larue Martin outscored and outrebounded him in the head to head. I'm guessing Chones becomes another name that is drafted behind one of the worst top picks in NBA history.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 21, 2024, 06:06:33 PM
Larue Martin outscored and outrebounded him in the head to head. I'm guessing Chones becomes another name that is drafted behind one of the worst top picks in NBA history.
One night later Martin outscored and out rebounded Bill Walton. Safe to say he didn't turn out better than either. Chones wasn't drafted until the 2nd round because he had already signed with the ABA. He very likely goes #1 ahead of Martin otherwise.
Al played small for his first few years, then Chones, MCNeil, Lucas , Ellis and Whitehead, MU was like Duke now, except UCLA who was better then both programs due to Alcindor and Walton
Quote from: BCHoopster on October 21, 2024, 09:02:21 PM
Al played small for his first few years, then Chones, MCNeil, Lucas , Ellis and Whitehead, MU was like Duke now, except UCLA who was better then both programs due to Alcindor and Walton
This is some major rewriting of history and math ain't mathing here. You're saying UCLA's whole era was due to two players, neither of which could play as freshmen, but UCLA went to the Final four in 62, 74 and 76 and were Champions in 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 75
I guess Hazzard, Goodrich, Wilkes, Wicks etc didn't do squat.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 21, 2024, 10:14:15 PM
This is some major rewriting of history and math ain't mathing here. You're saying UCLA's whole era was due to two players, neither of which could play as freshmen, but UCLA went to the Final four in 62, 74 and 76 and were Champions in 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 75
I guess Hazzard, Goodrich, Wilkes, Wicks etc didn't do squat.
Yes they had more than those two, but that was enough in this discussion
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2024, 03:56:00 PM
#22 would have been the consensus #1 pick in the draft. #0 barely made a roster. But hey, its not his fault that he stood 5'9", hey?
He was the 6th pick in the ABA draft. Not trying to demean Chones at all, but why would he have been the #1 pick in the NBA draft when three guys selected ahead of him in the ABA were top-8 picks in that NBA Draft? (Honestly don't know, just seems unlikely he'd vault all of them)
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 22, 2024, 10:06:50 AM
He was the 6th pick in the ABA draft. Not trying to demean Chones at all, but why would he have been the #1 pick in the NBA draft when three guys selected ahead of him in the ABA were top-8 picks in that NBA Draft? (Honestly don't know, just seems unlikely he'd vault all of them)
Could it be contract related? Did he sign an ABA contract before the season ending NBA draft and the others didn't?
My guess is that the ABA draft included a lot of guesswork on whether or not players would even be interested in signing. Of the top ten in that draft, only Chones and Dr. J went on to play in the ABA. Chones left early while Dr. J played out the rest of the season.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 22, 2024, 10:51:12 AM
My guess is that the ABA draft included a lot of guesswork on whether or not players would even be interested in signing. Of the top ten in that draft, only Chones and Dr. J went on to play in the ABA. Chones left early while Dr. J played out the rest of the season.
No guess work with Chones. They made him sign before the draft.
Quote from: Gato78 on October 22, 2024, 10:54:40 AM
No guess work with Chones. They made him sign before the draft.
OK, I didn't get the entire timeline until I looked it up. That was an interesting time to say the least.
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/02/19/archives/marquette-star-quits-team-in-junior-year-nets-sign-chones-for.html
Regardless, they have him listed as pick #6 on a couple of sites even though that's not entirely accurate.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 22, 2024, 10:06:50 AM
He was the 6th pick in the ABA draft. Not trying to demean Chones at all, but why would he have been the #1 pick in the NBA draft when three guys selected ahead of him in the ABA were top-8 picks in that NBA Draft? (Honestly don't know, just seems unlikely he'd vault all of them)
Averaging 20 and 10 during the tourney while leading Marquette to the title would have vaulted him to #1.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 22, 2024, 10:06:50 AM
He was the 6th pick in the ABA draft. Not trying to demean Chones at all, but why would he have been the #1 pick in the NBA draft when three guys selected ahead of him in the ABA were top-8 picks in that NBA Draft? (Honestly don't know, just seems unlikely he'd vault all of them)
Technically the 6th pick, but not really. The league needed a solid presence in New York and star players - so when New York went to the league and told them "If we can sign Chones now (pre draft) is it OK?" League said OK, it'll cost you your 1st round pick.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 22, 2024, 03:18:28 PM
Technically the 6th pick, but not really. The league needed a solid presence in New York and star players - so when New York went to the league and told them "If we can sign Chones now (pre draft) is it OK?" League said OK, it'll cost you your 1st round pick.
This