Very concerning. Gut Scoop community feeling?
Unlikely, been a while since I bowled. It's not gonna be pretty
Quote from: MuggsyB on September 29, 2024, 08:02:05 PM
Very concerning. Gut Scoop community feeling?
Why is a strike concerning?
East Coast Port strike on October 1.
Will heavily disrupt container shipments to and from every East coast port.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 29, 2024, 08:32:01 PM
East Coast Port strike on October 1.
Will heavily disrupt container shipments to and from every East coast port.
Exactly. The supply chain issues could be a s-show.
Quote from: MuggsyB on September 29, 2024, 08:47:21 PM
Exactly. The supply chain issues could be a s-show.
Automation is a big issue in this strike.
https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/longshoremen-at-key-us-ports-threatening-to-strike-over-automation-and-pay/
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 29, 2024, 09:37:37 PM
Automation is a big issue in this strike.
https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/longshoremen-at-key-us-ports-threatening-to-strike-over-automation-and-pay/
The ILA etc. have been kicking/screaming to delay automation for years. It will eventually have to happen.
Yeah, the real issue here is the continued concentration of the benefits of automation, not that it exists.
Quote from: MuggsyB on September 29, 2024, 08:47:21 PM
Exactly. The supply chain issues could be a s-show.
So your concern is for possible supply chain disruption?
Any concern for the material conditions of the striking workers?
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 30, 2024, 08:52:29 AM
So your concern is for possible supply chain disruption?
Any concern for the material conditions of the striking workers?
On my list of sympathies with workers striking for better pay/working conditions, longshoremen are pretty far down the list. Extremely well compensated job that is passed down generationally with barriers to entry.
My cousin's husband is a VMI educated engineer with a masters from VT who works at the ports in Norfolk/Newport News and he's looking at an MBA needed to get into higher management cause he's low paid peasant compared to the longshoremen.
I respect their right to strike and I'm not suggesting some union busting nonsense, but I don't think it's callous for people to be focusing on worries about major supply chain disruptions and not the plight of 6 figure earning employees looking for a 75% raise while resisting technological progress implemented at other ports world wide.
Shut 'er down, aina?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 30, 2024, 01:38:04 PM
Why?
He's joyful when MU loses and joyful if the country loses.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2024, 01:44:28 PM
He's joyful when MU loses and joyful if the country loses.
Oh, I know the answer.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 30, 2024, 12:55:43 PM
On my list of sympathies with workers striking for better pay/working conditions, longshoremen are pretty far down the list. Extremely well compensated job that is passed down generationally with barriers to entry.
My cousin's husband is a VMI educated engineer with a masters from VT who works at the ports in Norfolk/Newport News and he's looking at an MBA needed to get into higher management cause he's low paid peasant compared to the longshoremen.
I respect their right to strike and I'm not suggesting some union busting nonsense, but I don't think it's callous for people to be focusing on worries about major supply chain disruptions and not the plight of 6 figure earning employees looking for a 75% raise while resisting technological progress implemented at other ports world wide.
This will have tremendous impact on truckers and farmers, not just these Union members.
When da goin' gets tough, da tough get goin', aina?
I'm cool with them striking, but I can confirm the longshoremen are the textbook example of the old-boys club. Membership and advancement are based upon who you know and not what you know. (I guess I should qualify, I know for the Pacific coast union)
Quote from: WhiteTrash on September 30, 2024, 02:35:18 PM
I'm cool with them striking, but I can confirm the longshoremen are the textbook example of the old-boys club. Membership and advancement are based upon who you know and not what you know. (I guess I should qualify, I know for the Pacific coast union)
They certainly have that right but I don't think they'll get a lot of sympathy from the public.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 30, 2024, 03:12:14 PM
They certainly have that right but I don't think they'll get a lot of sympathy from the public.
I can't believe that I'm admitting it, but I actually agree with Lenny.
With the scenes of destruction from Hurricane Helene this seems out-of-place. They should announce they are postponing striking for a week due to the natural disaster so as not to disturb recovery and to give them more time to negotiate a contract.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 30, 2024, 12:55:43 PM
On my list of sympathies with workers striking for better pay/working conditions, longshoremen are pretty far down the list. Extremely well compensated job that is passed down generationally with barriers to entry.
My cousin's husband is a VMI educated engineer with a masters from VT who works at the ports in Norfolk/Newport News and he's looking at an MBA needed to get into higher management cause he's low paid peasant compared to the longshoremen.
I respect their right to strike and I'm not suggesting some union busting nonsense, but I don't think it's callous for people to be focusing on worries about major supply chain disruptions and not the plight of 6 figure earning employees looking for a 75% raise while resisting technological progress implemented at other ports world wide.
Thank you for coming to this with legitimate discussion.
Decent article about longshoreman salaries ..
https://archive.is/20240930212521/https://www.barrons.com/articles/port-pay-dock-workers-pay-demands-7e5b52dd
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 01, 2024, 10:28:19 AM
Decent article about longshoreman salaries ..
https://archive.is/20240930212521/https://www.barrons.com/articles/port-pay-dock-workers-pay-demands-7e5b52dd
They are also against automation of gates, cranes, and on-site truck movement. This is, I think, of greater importance
long term. Modern day Luddites,
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 10:49:19 AM
They are also against automation of gates, cranes, and on-site truck movement. This is, I think, of greater importance long term. Modern day Luddites,
Right, MUScoop has thrived since we switched to 98% automated posts.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 01, 2024, 11:02:41 AM
Right, MUScoop has thrived since we switched to 98% automated posts.
This explains the celeb obits, Anders, Aaron, and Hauser updates.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 01, 2024, 11:34:20 AM
This explains the celeb obits, Anders, Aaron, and Hauser updates.
It's definitely AI...artificial ignorance.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 01, 2024, 11:02:41 AM
Right, MUScoop has thrived since we switched to 98% automated posters.
FIFY
Quote from: MuggsyB on September 30, 2024, 01:52:57 PM
This will have tremendous impact on truckers and farmers, not just these Union members.
I mean isn't that the point? The reason that they have what they perceive as leverage?
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 10:49:19 AM
They are also against automation of gates, cranes, and on-site truck movement. This is, I think, of greater importance long term. Modern day Luddites,
Its pretty eye opening to look at the offloading/dock process in the US compared to other places in the world as a result.
Also, a huge part of this whole issue is "touch fees". Basically, the process is far less efficient and shipments end up getting trucked farther by truck or rail because unions get huge fees anytime a crane is used (touched). So a shipment that might be moved by crane 2/3/4 times at a port in China or the EU is only moved once by a crane. That, combined with red tape in accordance with the Jones Act, leads to massive inefficiency protected fiercely by the Union.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 01, 2024, 10:28:19 AM
Decent article about longshoreman salaries ..
https://archive.is/20240930212521/https://www.barrons.com/articles/port-pay-dock-workers-pay-demands-7e5b52dd
This also reminded me of an old coworker of mine at Pepsi. Younger sales guy, from Seattle. At a company offsite, it came up that his dad worked at the docks in Seattle, specifically as a crane operator. One of the marketing managers, a classic Northwestern/UM/UofC MBA type, kind of panderingly asked "oh are you the first in your family to go to college?" cause he went to U of Washington on scholarship.
He was buzzed, so I think he got a bit cocky/defensive..."well no, I have an older sister who went to Gonzaga. We both got scholarships cause we got really good grades at the private school we went to for middle/high school. My dad didn't go to college but he has an $80K pick up truck and got my mom a Corvette for her 50th birthday..."
In a different situation it would have been douchey, but it was pretty funny that she clearly interpreted him as some modern day Loretta Lynn type from blue collar poverty and had no clue of the compensation for longshoremen and the like.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 10:49:19 AM
They are also against automation of gates, cranes, and on-site truck movement. This is, I think, of greater importance long term. Modern day Luddites,
Not any different than the writers and actors strike opposing AI and CGI generated content.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 01, 2024, 03:37:51 PM
Not any different than the writers and actors strike opposing AI and CGI generated content.
The small manufacturing business I had was a commercial woodshop operation. When the production workers worried about my purchasing more machinery that increased efficiency, I brought in a hand saw, a paint brush, some chisels, and a hand-cranked drill and laid them on a table. I told them we could use tools like those if they would like, but that the company would be bankrupt in less than a month and then they would have no jobs. They got a laugh out of my little act. Then I told them that the best job security was to out produce our competitors and take their business away. The business was expanding rapidly, and my investment in machinery, along with employees who "got it" and ran the shop efficiently, resulted in success. Our cross-town competitors struggled with slow, labor-intensive practices. We ran circles around them.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 03:53:18 PM
The small manufacturing business I had was a commercial woodshop operation. When the production workers worried about my purchasing more machinery that increased efficiency, I brought in a hand saw, a paint brush, some chisels, and a hand-cranked drill and laid them on a table. I told them we could use tools like those if they would like, but that the company would be bankrupt in less than a month and then they would have no jobs. They got a laugh out of my little act. Then I told them that the best job security was to out produce our competitors and take their business away. The business was expanding rapidly, and my investment in machinery, along with employees who "got it" and ran the shop efficiently, resulted in success. Our cross-town competitors struggled with slow, labor-intensive practices. We ran circles around them.
Did your workers share equally in the production gains? Or merely keep their jobs?
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 03:53:18 PM
The small manufacturing business I had was a commercial woodshop operation. When the production workers worried about my purchasing more machinery that increased efficiency, I brought in a hand saw, a paint brush, some chisels, and a hand-cranked drill and laid them on a table. I told them we could use tools like those if they would like, but that the company would be bankrupt in less than a month and then they would have no jobs. They got a laugh out of my little act. Then I told them that the best job security was to out produce our competitors and take their business away. The business was expanding rapidly, and my investment in machinery, along with employees who "got it" and ran the shop efficiently, resulted in success. Our cross-town competitors struggled with slow, labor-intensive practices. We ran circles around them.
When 45k long shoreman shutdown all the ports, except on the west coast, there is little chance they'll be put out of business.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 01, 2024, 05:19:32 PM
Did your workers share equally in the production gains? Or merely keep their jobs?
I cut their pay to minimum wage. And told them they were lucky that I didn't fire them.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 05:49:46 PM
I cut their pay to minimum wage. And told them they were lucky that I didn't fire them.
😂😂
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 01, 2024, 05:21:02 PM
When 45k long shoreman shutdown all the ports, except on the west coast, there is little chance they'll be put out of business.
I do not see how this is at all relevant. ::) My point was efficiency improvements are essential to increased profitability and increased profitability is essential to having money wage and benefit increases. I was able to not only increase wages and benefits but also institute a bonus system based upon productivity. My employees were much longer term than those in other small manufacturing companies, so I guess I must have done something right. They had the right to size up new employees to determine if they would be good team members. In other words, they could recommend that a slacker could be quickly booted out. I warned new employees about this, but some apparently did not think I was serious. Some didn't last an entire day they were such screw offs.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 01, 2024, 05:21:02 PM
except on the west coast
And the west coast guys are licking their chops at all the potential overtime, already being under a newish contract and all...
I was reading this morning that President Biden was remarking he was not happy to hear that the port strike was delaying deliveries of supplies to Helene stricken areas.
Leads me to think he is considering invoking Taft-Hartley sooner than later for hurricane relief if no progress is seen on strike resolution.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 03, 2024, 09:57:12 AM
I was reading this morning that President Biden was remarking he was not happy to hear that the port strike was delaying deliveries of supplies to Helene stricken areas.
Leads me to think he is considering invoking Taft-Hartley sooner than later for hurricane relief if no progress is seen on strike resolution.
Biden said he doesn't believe in Taft-Hartley.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 03, 2024, 10:10:55 AM
Biden said he doesn't believe in Taft-Hartley.
He has to say that.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 03, 2024, 10:10:55 AM
Biden said he doesn't believe in Taft-Hartley.
Someone would have to explain it to him first.
more context from the president
Quote
Q Mr. President, will you intervene in the dockworkers strike if they go on strike on Tuesday?
THE PRESIDENT: No.
Q Why not?
THE PRESIDENT: Because there's collective bargaining, and I don't believe in Taft-Hartley.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 03, 2024, 02:39:38 PM
more context from the president
Only the Railway Labor Act I guess
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 01, 2024, 03:53:18 PM
The small manufacturing business I had was a commercial woodshop operation. When the production workers worried about my purchasing more machinery that increased efficiency, I brought in a hand saw, a paint brush, some chisels, and a hand-cranked drill and laid them on a table. I told them we could use tools like those if they would like, but that the company would be bankrupt in less than a month and then they would have no jobs. They got a laugh out of my little act. Then I told them that the best job security was to out produce our competitors and take their business away. The business was expanding rapidly, and my investment in machinery, along with employees who "got it" and ran the shop efficiently, resulted in success. Our cross-town competitors struggled with slow, labor-intensive practices. We ran circles around them.
Union or non union shop?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 03, 2024, 03:53:57 PM
Union or non union shop?
Non union. Once I got the right guys in place,
everyone was happier. There is a whole lot to be said for listening to employee's thoughts, concerns, and ideas. The "right guys" group loved running their own show to a large degree and earning extra money via the bonus (based entirely of exceeding the very attainable production goals). On their own, they came up with little modifications to their workstations to make them more efficient. When I noticed that, I went to the bank and got some $100 bills and handed them to the clever workers.
Buffoon can't spell Taft-Hartley let alone know what it is, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 03, 2024, 06:06:52 PM
Buffoon can't spell Taft-Hartley let alone know what it is, aina?
Yeah, I have little doubt Rocket could spell it or explain it
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 03, 2024, 06:06:52 PM
Buffoon can't spell Taft-Hartley let alone know what it is, aina?
If only he were smart enough to accomplish something truly impressive in life, like drilling teeth.
Instead, he and his feeble brain had to settle for being leader of the free world.
Strike suspended until Jan. 15
https://apnews.com/article/longshoremen-strike-ports-dockworkers-agreement-86fac07d1189e11ca4816b2cbf37affb
Quote from: Pakuni on October 03, 2024, 06:56:47 PM
Strike suspended until Jan. 15
https://apnews.com/article/longshoremen-strike-ports-dockworkers-agreement-86fac07d1189e11ca4816b2cbf37affb
Union asked for 77% increase. Management previous offered 50%. The strike led to agreement at 62%.
Good all around
The republican party used to be free traders, for good reason. I agree. Learned their lesson in the 1930s. Until trump came on the scene and changed it all. I don't agree.
The Econ teacher in Ferris Buellers Day off mentioned it in a classic manner.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 07:07:01 PM
Union asked for 77% increase. Management previous offered 50%. The strike led to agreement at 62%.
Good all around
Not if they continue to be antiquated doofuses about technology.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2024, 07:59:11 PM
Not if they continue to be antiquated doofuses about technology.
Excellent point JWags.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2024, 07:59:11 PM
Not if they continue to be antiquated doofuses about technology.
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 08:51:12 PM
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
You're not looking at the whole picture.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 08:51:12 PM
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
That's not really how it works.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2024, 07:59:11 PM
Not if they continue to be antiquated doofuses about technology.
I would think the union would want to negotiate fully paid retraining so the workers could take a new job at the port that automation would open up.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 04, 2024, 04:48:15 AM
I would think the union would want to negotiate fully paid retraining so the workers could take a new job at the port that automation would open up.
Yes. I'm sure there will be something in the new deal to automate.
JWags85 and Scoop Snoop, appreciate your posts on this 👌
Unions are gr8 if u don't believe in urself
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 08:51:12 PM
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
Our ports are terrible when ranked by Turn Times which is critical towards costs. This report shows that the best US port for turn times is Charleston, SC. Unfortunately it comes in at a lowly 53rd. They absolutely need to automate just to
get competitive.
https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content (https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content)
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on October 04, 2024, 08:51:36 AM
Our ports are terrible when ranked by Turn Times which is critical towards costs. This report shows that the best US port for turn times is Charleston, SC. Unfortunately it comes in at a lowly 53rd. They absolutely need to automate just to get competitive.
https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content (https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content)
I think the implication that jesmu was making was that there needs to be a balance between automation and worker compensation.
Many places automate processes and then cut labor and pass the profits to management/ownership.
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 04, 2024, 08:46:08 AM
Unions are gr8 if u don't believe in urself
Or if you don't think 8 year olds should work in coal mines.
Or if you don't want to be punished/fired for petty, personal, or political reasons.
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 04, 2024, 08:46:08 AM
Unions are gr8 if u don't believe in urself
True.
Professional sports leagues are filled with people who lack self-confidence.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 03, 2024, 09:10:55 PM
That's not really how it works.
I'll reply here because jesmu's post is so laughingly naive, it does not deserve a direct response. I would like to say that jesmu lives in La La land, but Muggsy has informed me that the phrase is
his "terminology", and I do not want to be guilty of copyright infringement. Therefore, I will not mention the phrase "La La land" here.
My company was very small, and I had to sign all loans, leases etc.
personally, but I did not mind that at all. I mean....the whole purpose of starting up my own company that statistically had a high risk of failure was to
create jobs, so I knew it was worth literally risking personal bankruptcy.
So what if I lost our house?
I think agriculture may be the best way to expose jesmu's (alleged) thought process. Let's begin about 200 years ago. Cows were milked by hand, plowing was done via a single blade often pulled by a mule. Wheat was harvested by scythes. Tractors were unimaginable back then. Human, and equine power was the norm. Now let's go to today. Think of all those agricultural jobs lost! Oh my God!
Another scenario-commercial woodshop operations, which is something that I have a fair of knowledge and personal experience of. Of course jesmu's lofty, sanctimonious opinions trump my humble observations, but here we go. Just a reminder-I was never interested in making a profit. No no no! That's
disgusting!
I'm very confident that you all have some really nice furniture in your homes. Let's get into a time machine and go back to say 1800. Unless you were quite wealthy, you could not afford the beautifully hand-crafted furniture from the local maker. Now if we get back into the time machine again and get off say in the post-Civil War period, you are able to afford nicely made furniture at reasonable prices produced by furniture factories with their automated and semi-automated machinery.
One more example- years ago, I had a color darkroom and developed the skills and knowledge to get the most out of a negative. Had I decided to start up a commercial photo lab, I would have been put out of business many years ago and taken a heavy hit financially on a business that suddenly was worthless.
I will end by conceding to jesmu that the only legitimate purpose of any commercial enterprise is to create and maintain jobs at all costs, and those costs must never, ever be challenged by greedy, capitalists business owners.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on October 04, 2024, 08:51:36 AM
Our ports are terrible when ranked by Turn Times which is critical towards costs. This report shows that the best US port for turn times is Charleston, SC. Unfortunately it comes in at a lowly 53rd. They absolutely need to automate just to get competitive.
https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content (https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/6cebb847-6f46-44e7-9533-12ac893b3693/content)
None of our ports are in the top 50, 6 (Tacoma -401, Oakland-397, Savannah 395, Los Angeles 375, Long Beach 373, Seattle 360) are in the bottom 50. Overall got the costliest and the least efficient. What decades of what coming to agreements that (according to jesmu) are "good for both sides" has wrought.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 08:51:12 PM
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
Little known fact, jes carved this in the wall of his cave, paid someone to come out to the cave and write it down on paper, then transport that paper to the nearest place with technology. More payment was required to transfer those words onto the Internet. Of course jes also paid transportation, technology and safety supervisors all along the way to insure every job was done correctly by a properly trained professional.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 03, 2024, 08:51:12 PM
If organizations want to use technology and automation to enhance productivity while maintaining worker jobs, I don't have a problem with that.
If organizations want to use technology and automation solely to eliminate jobs as means to generate more profit by lowering labor costs through job elimination, I don't agree with that.
I don't have a problem with unions fighting the latter.
It sounds like our poster scoop was the former.
Daggett gave an interview complaning that the EZ-Pass system was terrible cause it stole a bunch of union toll taker jobs. Im skeptical that he has a pragmatic outlook on technology at all, cause he deems it a threat to his power and control.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 04, 2024, 09:20:59 AM
True.
Professional sports leagues are filled with people who lack self-confidence.
Sports Unions are outliers/exceptions. Their members are elite in their field. 550 NBA players, 750 MLB players as an example. Conversely, there are 4,000,000 teachers, 10,000,000 construction workers - their strength is not in any elite skill but rather their sheer numbers.
I am guessing some of the employees at Impact Plastic wish they had a union and the power to say no.
Quote from: tower912 on October 04, 2024, 09:53:08 AM
I am guessing some of the employees at Impact Plastic wish they had a union and the power to say no.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going
Quote from: tower912 on October 04, 2024, 09:53:08 AM
I am guessing some of the employees at Impact Plastic wish they had a union and the power to say no.
Union members just leave work cause they get a severe storm notification?
I read the initial report and it seems like a justifiably emotional response to a tragic fluke weather event. Some of the social media response makes it seem like management remotely told people to keep working as the plant flooded, which isn't true. I'll wait for the OSHA/local government reports, but it seems like a lot of he said she said.
And its not some corporate apologist/shill stance, from what I saw, the company is under 100 employees and $25MM in revenue, which is not big at all for a manufacturing outfit. I just see both sides of complex decisions in a smaller business setting.
They can refuse to come in and not get fired. They can argue with a manager who is clearly focused on the wrong thing without getting fired.
I also see both sides. In this case, management was wrong and people died.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2024, 10:30:56 AM
Union members just leave work cause they get a severe storm notification?
I read the initial report and it seems like a justifiably emotional response to a tragic fluke weather event. Some of the social media response makes it seem like management remotely told people to keep working as the plant flooded, which isn't true. I'll wait for the OSHA/local government reports, but it seems like a lot of he said she said.
And its not some corporate apologist/shill stance, from what I saw, the company is under 100 employees and $25MM in revenue, which is not big at all for a manufacturing outfit. I just see both sides of complex decisions in a smaller business setting.
That's not allowed here!
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 04, 2024, 08:57:34 AM
I think the implication that jesmu was making was that there needs to be a balance between automation and worker compensation.
Many places automate processes and then cut labor and pass the profits to management/ownership.
Bump.
Hards said it better than I
Edit: In my post, I didn't say making profits was bad. I didn't say technology or automation was bad. I didn't say increasing productivity was bad
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 04, 2024, 09:50:41 AM
Sports Unions are outliers/exceptions. Their members are elite in their field. 550 NBA players, 750 MLB players as an example. Conversely, there are 4,000,000 teachers, 10,000,000 construction workers - their strength is not in any elite skill but rather their sheer numbers.
They're not exceptions.
Professional athletes unionize for the same reasons teachers unionize for the same reason construction workers unionize. That's because, as history has proven, that left to its own devices, management will take advantage of labor.
"Elite"-ness clearly has nothing to do with it. Pro athletes were elite in the 40s, 50s and 60s, too - arguably moreso since there were fewer of them - and that didn't prevent their exploitation. What prevented their exploitation was forming a union.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 04, 2024, 10:52:27 AM
They're not exceptions.
Professional athletes unionize for the same reasons teachers unionize for the same reason construction workers unionize. That's because, as history has proven, that left to its own devices, management will take advantage of labor.
"Elite"-ness clearly has nothing to do with it. Pro athletes were elite in the 40s, 50s and 60s, too - arguably moreso since there were fewer of them - and that didn't prevent their exploitation. What prevented their exploitation was forming a union.
I agree with this.
In defense of folks like scoop, it's much more prevalent at large firms
JWags, I appreciate your approach very much. And I would not argue that unions are never wrong. I know better. I am probably the only poster here who has been on a union executive board, bargained a contact on the union side, helped found and run a union PAC, gotten to pound the table and yell at management. I know the good and the excess.
I look at what happened at Impact Plastics and what happened last spring in Baltimore harbor as examples of why unions are still essential. Because, as posted above, it is inevitable that management is going to try to exploit labor and cut corners on safety.
I believe in capitalism. I believe we need entrepreneurs. I believe that the people who do the physical labor need to be rewarded and protected.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 04, 2024, 11:01:33 AM
I agree with this.
In defense of folks like scoop, it's much more prevalent at large firms
I have no idea if that's true or not.
That said, I don't villainize either side here. Management's job is to maximize profits, and companies seeking to maximize profits is a necessary part of a healthy economy. And unions' job is to maximize compensation and benefits for employees, and a well-compensated and fairly treated labor force is a necessary part of a healthy society.
The friction between the two is good. It ideally strikes a fair balance between the interests of both sides and everyone thrives.
Amen.
Quote from: tower912 on October 04, 2024, 10:32:58 AM
They can refuse to come in and not get fired. They can argue with a manager who is clearly focused on the wrong thing without getting fired.
I also see both sides. In this case, management was wrong and people died.
There were no storm warnings or indications this would happen the morning of, the first warnings/notifications happened during the work day.
And from what I read, I never saw "we asked management and they said no". I saw employees say they asked other employees who said they should wait to hear what management said. I saw no stories of arguing with management who refused to let them leave. It seems like a lot of retrospective "management should have done this". Which like I said, is an emotionally justified response to a tragic event, but isn't some direct indictment of cruel capitalistic labor practices.
I guess my stance is more that I don't think a union would have necessarily prevented this, unless it comes out in findings that management acted far more inappropriately than has been presented. If thats the case, the articles will come out fast and furious and IP will be sued to high heaven.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 04, 2024, 11:19:35 AM
I have no idea if that's true or not.
That said, I don't villainize either side here. Management's job is to maximize profits, and companies seeking to maximize profits is a necessary part of a healthy economy. And unions' job is to maximize compensation and benefits for employees, and a well-compensated and fairly treated labor force is a necessary part of a healthy society.
The friction between the two is good. It ideally strikes a fair balance between the interests of both sides and everyone thrives.
Well said Pak
Technology and automation, which include monstrous shifts in the economy (industrial revolution, internet revolution, etc.), will never be adequately held back by labor or regulation. I'm thankful for that. Technology will march forward, and the old way of doing things will be crushed repeatedly.
People will have to move cities and professions to keep up with technology sometimes, and it will always be a benefit to humanity when looked at through a historical lens.
Much like the Industrial Revolution, I'm sure there was unending whining from all laborers getting automated out of their jobs. Thankfully, those people pining for the agrarian society of yesteryear.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 04, 2024, 10:14:27 AM
When the going gets tough, the tough get going
Damn straight, Bro, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 04, 2024, 04:58:01 PM
Damn straight, Bro, hey?
Or declare bankruptcy and stiff contractors.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 04, 2024, 04:06:16 PM
Technology and automation, which include monstrous shifts in the economy (industrial revolution, internet revolution, etc.), will never be adequately held back by labor or regulation. I'm thankful for that. Technology will march forward, and the old way of doing things will be crushed repeatedly.
People will have to move cities and professions to keep up with technology sometimes, and it will always be a benefit to humanity when looked at through a historical lens.
Much like the Industrial Revolution, I'm sure there was unending whining from all laborers getting automated out of their jobs. Thankfully, those people pining for the agrarian society of yesteryear.
I just finished reading
1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.
I get that human lives, families, and communities suffer terribly when jobs are lost. The
reality is that payroll, like materials, commercial property leases, equipment, supplies, marketing, sales reps, vehicles, etc., is an
expense. The idea that the labor expense of manually operated gates is a sacred cow is totally ridiculous.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 04, 2024, 05:05:34 PM
Or declare bankruptcy and stiff contractors.
Or show up for 2 WH briefin's in 2+ months, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 04, 2024, 05:22:14 PM
Or show up for 2 WH briefin's in 2+ months, hey?
Or bang a pornstar while your 3rd wife is home pregnant and try to cover it up with campaign donations, hey?
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 04, 2024, 08:46:08 AM
Unions are gr8 if u don't believe in urself
When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.
I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.
Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.
The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "
I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.
I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.
Having the experience colored my view toward how to treat employees. In my company we treat everyone with Dignity , Respect and work to have everyone at the higher end of compensation in the industry for their respective skills sets. We have total flexibility when family emergencies and have flexible paid leave policies. Employees value this very much. We have never had anyone desire to unionize and in fact the employees help weed out the lousy workers as everyone wants to see the business thrive because we constantly take care of people.
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 04, 2024, 06:48:37 PM
When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.
I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.
Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.
The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "
I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.
I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.
This totally happened. Nothing has ever happened more than this.
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 04, 2024, 06:48:37 PM
When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.
I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.
Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.
The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "
I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.
I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.
Having the experience colored my view toward how to treat employees. In my company we treat everyone with Dignity , Respect and work to have everyone at the higher end of compensation in the industry for their respective skills sets. We have total flexibility when family emergencies and have flexible paid leave policies. Employees value this very much. We have never had anyone desire to unionize and in fact the employees help weed out the lousy workers as everyone wants to see the business thrive because we constantly take care of people.
Then you had sex with Seka
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 04, 2024, 06:15:57 PM
Or bang a pornstar while your 3rd wife is home pregnant and try to cover it up with campaign donations, hey?
bribes, money laundering, tax evasion...clink time for 46?
Quote from: Viper on October 04, 2024, 06:59:52 PM
bribes, money laundering, tax evasion...clink time for 46?
If he's convicted of 34 felonies like 45
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 04, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
I just finished reading 1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.
I get that human lives, families, and communities suffer terribly when jobs are lost. The reality is that payroll, like materials, commercial property leases, equipment, supplies, marketing, sales reps, vehicles, etc., is an expense. The idea that the labor expense of manually operated gates is a sacred cow is totally ridiculous.
That book was interesting, but a tedious read
Quote from: Pakuni on October 04, 2024, 06:52:10 PM
This totally happened. Nothing has ever happened more than this.
The dead man has told some whoppers here, but this takes the cake.
Only thing missing is the union boss calling him sir.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 04, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
I just finished reading 1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.
Something similar happened with the diamond industry in Antwerp. The common understanding is in the 60s and 70s the Indians entered the marketplace and destroyed the cutting industry in places like Antwerp, Hatton Garden in London, NYC, etc... because they moved production to India where it was vastly cheaper. While that is true, the change in a place like Antwerp vs NYC is related to the mentality you spoke about above.
When the Indians started stealing market share, shifting cutting volumes from Antwerp, there was a push for aggressive modernization with cutting equipment, mapping tech, etc... Stuff that is commonplace today, but wasn't as wide spread back then. But there was pushback from the diamantaire guild in Antwerp. These were master craftsmen and artists, but their opinion shouldn't sway an entire industry. Its like taking the opinion of an impressionist on house painting. They could cut a few stones a month for large contract commissions and remain wealthy as they had for years whereas the diamond houses obviously needed volume. But they played to the vanity and ego and the perceived je ne sais quoi of the industry there to continue the traditional ways they always had...and they got their lunch ate. Within 20 years, Indian companies took over many old diamond houses, some of the ones that remained moved their cutting abroad to places like Thailand, Eastern Europe, etc.... Funny enough, the diamantaires were fine. Cause there was still money and demand for huge intricate and valuable single stones to be cut there. But now these guys are all elderly and/or deceased and there is this cry out that there is nobody young to take the reins and continue the legacy. Well when you contribute to all the entry and mid level jobs in the industry, there is nothing to build up to being at that level. No kid in Antwerp is growing up wanting to learn a dying art from a handful of wealthy and arrogant geriatric guys.
Would we have ended up in the same place now? Sure, cost efficiency rules all. But it would have been a much longer runway and different path upwards or pivots. NYC did the opposite. They adopted technology readily, did what they could to remain lean, etc... Its faded the last 10 years, but there was still large scale cutting all over NYC/NJ long after Antwerp fell off.
Hey tower, I was a union steward and also sat on our bargaining committee. Maybe we are the only two...
You rock.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 04, 2024, 07:20:15 PM
That book was interesting, but a tedious read
I felt like I needed several spread sheets to keep track of all the people, parties, battles, uprisings, demands, reactionary activity, strategy of the Habsburgs and other royal houses on playing ethnic, religious, and social groups off of one another. etc. etc.
This is the kind of book a guy like Muggsy should read but never will because it is the polar opposite of his simplistic, childishly naive takes on things.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 04, 2024, 10:09:01 PM
I felt like I needed several spread sheets to keep track of all the people, parties, battles, uprisings, demands, reactionary activity, strategy of the Habsburgs and other royal houses on playing ethnic, religious, and social groups off of one another. etc. etc.
This is the kind of book a guy like Muggsy should read but never will because it is the polar opposite of his simplistic, childishly naive takes on things.
Out of the blue you turn a discussion of a book you've read into a personal attack on Muggsy - who's not even involved in the conversation . And you call him childish? The lack of self awareness here is at times mind blowing.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 04, 2024, 10:09:01 PM
I felt like I needed several spread sheets to keep track of all the people, parties, battles, uprisings, demands, reactionary activity, strategy of the Habsburgs and other royal houses on playing ethnic, religious, and social groups off of one another. etc. etc.
This is the kind of book a guy like Muggsy should read but never will because it is the polar opposite of his simplistic, childishly naive takes on things.
It does encapsulate the inherent problems of European borders and such, even though that's not what the book is trying to be about.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 04, 2024, 10:36:15 PM
Out of the blue you turn a discussion of a book you've read into a personal attack on Muggsy - who's not even involved in the conversation . And you call him childish? The lack of self awareness here is at times mind blowing.
Huh.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 04, 2024, 10:36:15 PM
Out of the blue you turn a discussion of a book you've read into a personal attack on Muggsy - who's not even involved in the conversation . And you call him childish? The lack of self awareness here is at times mind blowing.
Read some of his posts. Among other gems, he thought that perhaps we should have seized the oil fields in the Mideast. And we should take out the world's bad guys. Of course, there would be no repercussions.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on October 04, 2024, 09:01:36 PM
Hey tower, I was a union steward and also sat on our bargaining committee. Maybe we are the only two...
I was on our union's bargaining committee, but wasn't a steward, so ya got me!
And speaking of bargaining, nice job by President Biden and his team to help settle the Longshoremen strike so quickly.
IDF should take out Iran's nukes first and end this bullchit, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 05, 2024, 10:42:38 AM
IDF should take out Iran's nukes first and this bullchit, hey?
That's just for starters.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 05, 2024, 10:42:38 AM
IDF should take out Iran's nukes first and end this bullchit, hey?
Obama took out Iran's nukes.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 05, 2024, 09:35:16 AM
Read some of his posts. Among other gems, he thought that perhaps we should have seized the oil fields in the Mideast. And we should take out the world's bad guys. Of course, there would be no repercussions.
So when he says something you disagree with address it/him. But why take cheap shots in a discussion of a book in which he's not even included? That's just being a dick.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 04, 2024, 10:09:01 PM
I felt like I needed several spread sheets to keep track of all the people, parties, battles, uprisings, demands, reactionary activity, strategy of the Habsburgs and other royal houses on playing ethnic, religious, and social groups off of one another. etc. etc.
This is the kind of book a guy like Muggsy should read but never will because it is the polar opposite of his simplistic, childishly naive takes on things.
They called Churchill naive and a warmonger.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 05, 2024, 02:57:22 PM
So when he says something you disagree with address it/him. But why take cheap shots in a discussion of a book in which he's not even included? That's just being a dick.
[/quote
I don't have a problem with it Lenny. I won't share my comprehensive 5 point plan, and all of its iterations, because I know SScoop and others will cry about it and pretend they are morally superior.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 05, 2024, 03:08:31 PM
They called Churchill naive and a warmonger.
Raging racist who loved Eugenics tho. Pobody's Nerfect!
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 05, 2024, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 05, 2024, 02:57:22 PM
So when he says something you disagree with address it/him. But why take cheap shots in a discussion of a book in which he's not even included? That's just being a dick.
[/quote
I don't have a problem with it Lenny. I won't share my comprehensive 5 point plan, and all of its iterations, because I know SScoop and others will cry about it and pretend they are morally superior.
I am morally superior
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 04, 2024, 10:36:15 PM
Out of the blue you turn a discussion of a book you've read into a personal attack on Muggsy - who's not even involved in the conversation . And you call him childish? The lack of self awareness here is at times mind blowing.
After reflecting upon your reply, I admit that there really is no connection between Muggsy and the book. The book is a scholarly work written by someone who has researched his subject thoroughly rather than someone like Muggsy just blurting out "ideas" that a fifth grader would recognize as nothing more than brainfarts. The author based his points upon a mountain of facts. Muggsy does not have facts. Doesn't
need them. He also doesn't need to be rational, accountable, deal with reality, or present any credentials to support his declarations like his oh-so-secret 5-point plan. ;D If he says that orcas got together to send humans a message or the moose have the right to kill humans "without mercy", it is
de facto truth. His comparing himself to Winston Churchill was a nice touch. That dovetails very nicely with his beginning a sentence "If I was in charge.... ;D Sounds like a drunk in a bar. "If I waazzz the prez she...dunt, I woouuuld..."
When scoopers challenged him in the thread about the Israeli/Hamas conflict, he was shocked by the "immorality" of his opponents' takes. Another
de facto-that makes him "morally superior". I will add that to the long list of his projections of his characteristics upon his critics including myself. I am happy to hear that you also are morally superior.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 06, 2024, 07:36:08 AM
After reflecting upon your reply, I admit that there really is no connection between Muggsy and the book. The book is a scholarly work written by someone who has researched his subject thoroughly rather than someone like Muggsy just blurting out "ideas" that a fifth grader would recognize as nothing more than brainfarts. The author based his points upon a mountain of facts. Muggsy does not have facts. Doesn't need them. He also doesn't need to be rational, accountable, deal with reality, or present any credentials to support his declarations like his oh-so-secret 5-point plan. ;D If he says that orcas got together to send humans a message or the moose have the right to kill humans "without mercy", it is de facto truth. His comparing himself to Winston Churchill was a nice touch. That dovetails very nicely with his beginning a sentence "If I was in charge.... ;D Sounds like a drunk in a bar. "If I waazzz the prez she...dunt, I woouuuld..."
When scoopers challenged him in the thread about the Israeli/Hamas conflict, he was shocked by the "immorality" of his opponents' takes. Another de facto-that makes him "morally superior". I will add that to the long list of his projections of his characteristics upon his critics including myself. I am happy to hear that you also are morally superior.
So doubling, tripling, quadrupling and quintupling on being a dick just because. Cool.
Lenny, I would be more sympathetic to your point if you hadn't recently come unglued.
Quote from: tower912 on October 06, 2024, 08:40:47 AM
Lenny, I would be more sympathetic to your point if you hadn't recently come unglued.
Tower, I would be more sympathetic to your personal attack if it was true.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 06, 2024, 07:36:08 AM
After reflecting upon your reply, I admit that there really is no connection between Muggsy and the book. The book is a scholarly work written by someone who has researched his subject thoroughly rather than someone like Muggsy just blurting out "ideas" that a fifth grader would recognize as nothing more than brainfarts. The author based his points upon a mountain of facts. Muggsy does not have facts. Doesn't need them. He also doesn't need to be rational, accountable, deal with reality, or present any credentials to support his declarations like his oh-so-secret 5-point plan. ;D If he says that orcas got together to send humans a message or the moose have the right to kill humans "without mercy", it is de facto truth. His comparing himself to Winston Churchill was a nice touch. That dovetails very nicely with his beginning a sentence "If I was in charge.... ;D Sounds like a drunk in a bar. "If I waazzz the prez she...dunt, I woouuuld..."
When scoopers challenged him in the thread about the Israeli/Hamas conflict, he was shocked by the "immorality" of his opponents' takes. Another de facto-that makes him "morally superior". I will add that to the long list of his projections of his characteristics upon his critics including myself. I am happy to hear that you also are morally superior.
You're conflating "facts" with a concrete plan that eliminates scumbags and worldwide threats. Let me assure you both "conflicts" would be over and the world would be 1000 times safer if people got their head out of their asses, extricated themselves from la-la-land, and understood that appeasement does not work in certain cases.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 09:05:51 AM
You're conflating "facts" with a concrete plan that eliminates scumbags and worldwide threats. Let me assure you both "conflicts" would be over and the world would be 1000 times safer if people got their head out of their asses, extricated themselves from la-la-land, and understood that appeasement does not work in certain cases.
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 09:05:51 AM
You're conflating "facts" with a concrete plan that eliminates scumbags and worldwide threats. Let me assure you both "conflicts" would be over and the world would be 1000 times safer if people got their head out of their asses, extricated themselves from la-la-land, and understood that appeasement does not work in certain cases.
Well, as long as you offer assurance, anyone who disagrees with you ever is obviously stoopid and morally inferior.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 09:05:51 AM
You're conflating "facts" with a concrete plan that eliminates scumbags and worldwide threats. Let me assure you both "conflicts" would be over and the world would be 1000 times safer if people got their head out of their asses, extricated themselves from la-la-land, and understood that appeasement does not work in certain cases.
Do you support trump's appeasement with Ukraine?
Quote from: MU82 on October 06, 2024, 10:34:09 AM
Well, as long as you offer assurance, anyone who disagrees with you ever is obviously stoopid and morally inferior.
Not only did he provide assurance, but as details of his 5-point plan emerge, we now know that the plan is
concrete. Interesting use of the word conflating (a Muggsy favorite) but I noticed that as usual, he carefully sidestepped addressing my 5 points. Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead.
I really hope he has sent copies to the White House, Joint Chiefs of Staff, the NSA and the UN.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 06, 2024, 08:35:55 AM
So doubling, tripling, quadrupling and quintupling on being a dick just because. Cool.
Your hero does this
all the time. Why can't I?
Quote from: Jockey on October 06, 2024, 02:46:24 PM
Do you support trump's appeasement with Ukraine?
Of course not. I mentioned within 2 weeks of the invasion that Putin should be introduced to darkness.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on October 06, 2024, 03:05:21 PM
Your hero does this all the time. Why can't I?
1. Who do you think is my hero? 100% you're wrong.
2. Why would you want to imitate someone you despise?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 06, 2024, 03:59:12 PM
1. Who do you think is my hero? 100% you're wrong.
2. Why would you want to imitate someone you despise?
You take bait just as quickly as Muggsy. ;D
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 03:14:06 PM
Of course not. I mentioned within 2 weeks of the invasion that Putin should be introduced to darkness.
How?
War crimes don't exist when we are in the drivers seat
Quote from: Pakuni on October 06, 2024, 04:48:33 PM
How?
Who cares? Like the Nike ads said..."Just
DO it!"
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 06, 2024, 04:48:47 PM
War crimes
Wat Crimes? Like members of the UN who were part of the 10/7 attack on 🇮🇱? Taking out colossal scumbags and preventing future loss of life isn't controversial for those that are rational.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:14:25 PM
Wat Crimes? Like members of the UN who were part of the 10/7 attack on 🇮🇱? Taking out colossal scumbags and preventing future loss of life isn't controversial for those that are rational.
You're dodging the question, Mugs.
How would you go about introducing Putin to darkness. Poison him? Sniper? Bomb him?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 06, 2024, 05:28:02 PM
You're dodging the question, Mugs.
How would you go about introducing Putin to darkness. Poison him? Sniper? Bomb him?
Covert op Pakuni which I mentioned soon after he invaded Ukraine. Delta Force snipers and immediate darkness.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:30:00 PM
Covert op Pakuni which I mentioned soon after he invaded Ukraine. Delta Force snipers and immediate darkness.
And if it fails you're good with a full out war with Russia?
Quote from: BM1090 on October 06, 2024, 05:38:23 PM
And if it fails you're good with a full out war with Russia?
It wouldn't fail. And if by an infinitesimal chance it did yes, as Gallant said with regards to Iran, everything would be on the table. We're not living in an age of conventional warfare. We never should have slow rolled Ukraine with weapons or worried about Putin's threats. Attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:30:00 PM
Covert op Pakuni which I mentioned soon after he invaded Ukraine. Delta Force snipers and immediate darkness.
The name of the sniper?
Jason Bourne.
In fact, I've had about enough of the Mullahs and Putin. The perception is we're weak now with a lame duck president and pinprick responses. Perfect time to say hello with a forceful and emphatic message.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:44:08 PM
It wouldn't fail. And if by an infinitesimal chance it did yes, as Gallant said with regards to Iran, everything would be on the table. We're not living in an age of conventional warfare. We never should have slow rolled Ukraine with weapons or worried about Putin's threats. Attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately.
This is why people don't take you seriously.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 06, 2024, 05:47:57 PM
This is why people don't take you seriously.
Wrong. Because we don't do diddly squat is the reason Putin and the Mullahs don't take our leadership seriously. China as well.
And let me tell you something else Fluffy:
About 10% of Gallup polls, as late as Fall of 1940, believed we shouldn't go to Wat. 90% of our country couldn't have been more wrong.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:51:31 PM
Wrong. Because we don't do diddly squat is the reason Putin and the Mullahs don't take our leadership seriously. China as well.
That's an interesting take considering the respective positions of those three compared to the U.S. right now.
Again learn up on something, make a cogent point, then we might not simply snicker at your posts.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 06, 2024, 05:55:58 PM
That's an interesting take considering the respective positions of those three compared to the U.S. right now.
There's a reason Netanyahu called out Macron.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:57:12 PM
There's a reason Netanyahu called out Macron.
Uh. Ok?
On another subject I think Trudeau loses badly.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:57:12 PM
There's a reason Netanyahu called out Macron.
Nethanyahu ... now there's a guy we should be taking a cues from.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 06, 2024, 06:00:05 PM
Nethanyahu ... now there's a guy we should be taking a cues from.
He's doing the right thing now.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 06:01:28 PM
He's doing the right thing now.
Committing war crimes?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 06, 2024, 06:05:23 PM
Committing war crimes?
To be fair, that seems to be what Muggs wants.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:44:08 PM
It wouldn't fail. And if by an infinitesimal chance it did yes, as Gallant said with regards to Iran, everything would be on the table. We're not living in an age of conventional warfare. We never should have slow rolled Ukraine with weapons or worried about Putin's threats. Attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately.
So we try to assassinate Putin and fail, so we're in open war.
And you're okay with that scenario against a nuclear power?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 06, 2024, 06:06:51 PM
So we try to assassinate Putin and fail, so we're in open war.
And you're okay with that scenario against a nuclear power?
Putin will be toppled internally if pressure continues. But I'm not sure the devil we don't know is a better choice.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 06, 2024, 06:12:50 PM
Putin will be toppled internally if pressure continues. But I'm not sure the devil we don't know is a better choice.
Pretty ballsy to post here with logical comments.
I agree pretty much with your first comment, but the "savvy genius" has managed to stay in power against all odds, so I'm not quite ready to agree that he will
definitely go down. But I'm
close.
Your second comment? Agree Big Time.
But since Mr.
If I Was In Charge has made it clear that conventional warfare is not enough, so let's light it up and get this done.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 06, 2024, 06:12:50 PM
Putin will be toppled internally if pressure continues. But I'm not sure the devil we don't know is a better choice.
The alternative is/was always a better choice. He should be fertilizer and is a colossal fkbag.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 06, 2024, 06:06:51 PM
So we try to assassinate Putin and fail, so we're in open war.
And you're okay with that scenario against a nuclear power?
That's not what I said.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 08:30:28 PM
That's not what I said.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:44:08 PM
It wouldn't fail. And if by an infinitesimal chance it did yes, as Gallant said with regards to Iran, everything would be on the table. We're not living in an age of conventional warfare. We never should have slow rolled Ukraine with weapons or worried about Putin's threats. Attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately.
So when you said "everything would be on the table" and "attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately" you weren't stating that you would be okay with open war against Russia?
Do your research. Then write letters, send e-mails, make phone calls to the politicians that are taking Putin's side in this. If they were against sending aid to Ukraine, chastise them severely for their wrongheadness. It is difficult to imagine politicians siding with Putin, but some do. Focus your energy upon them.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 06, 2024, 09:02:49 PM
So when you said "everything would be on the table" and "attack with zero hesitation and they would surrender immediately" you weren't stating that you would be okay with open war against Russia?
I'm not concerned with Putin's ability to counterattack to be blunt.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 10:12:58 PM
I'm not concerned with Putin's ability to counterattack to be blunt.
You aren't concerned with Russia using it's nuclear arsenal? Why not?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 10:12:58 PM
I'm not concerned with Putin's ability to counterattack to be blunt.
So youre good with open war, you just think Russia can't fight back.... despite them having enough nukes to blow up the world a few times over
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 08:28:28 PM
The alternative is/was always a better choice.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 10:12:58 PM
I'm not concerned with Putin's ability to counterattack to be blunt.
These are simply inane statements.
Putin has been severely weakened through this entire affair. He is bogged down in eastern Ukraine, has seen Russia invaded for the first time since WW2, had two longtime neutrals, one on its border, join NATO, and has crapped away all the goodwill Russia has built up in Europe.
Furthermore Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger. Its military is technologically obsolete and bereft with corruption and mismanagement. And he is increasingly unpopular at home, both with the masses and the elites. And it is the latter who will control if he stays or goes.
But if you would have attacked him, killed him and made him a martyr, that would have caused a much broader and deadlier war.
Your ideas are full of silliness.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 07, 2024, 08:06:22 AM
These are simply inane statements.
Putin has been severely weakened through this entire affair. He is bogged down in eastern Ukraine, has seen Russia invaded for the first time since WW2, had two longtime neutrals, one on its border, join NATO, and has crapped away all the goodwill Russia has built up in Europe.
Furthermore Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger. Its military is technologically obsolete and bereft with corruption and mismanagement. And he is increasingly unpopular at home, both with the masses and the elites. And it is the latter who will control if he stays or goes.
But if you would have attacked him, killed him and made him a martyr, that would have caused a much broader and deadlier war.
Your ideas are full of silliness.
Ukraine was invaded by this fkbag in February of '22. Countless numbers of lives have been lost on both sides. If Putin had been introduced to darkness 2.5 years ago the entire world would be in a far better place, he would not be a martyr, and alternative leadership in Russia could not conceivable be worse. This "martyr" narrative is also stupid. Being hated more than we're already hated by certain dictatorships is not the least bit concerning to me.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2024, 08:50:28 AM
Ukraine was invaded by this fkbag in February of '22. Countless numbers of lives have been lost on both sides. If Putin had been introduced to darkness 2.5 years ago the entire world would be in a far better place, he would not be a martyr, and alternative leadership in Russia could not conceivable be worse. This "martyr" narrative is also stupid. Being hated more than we're already hated by certain dictatorships is not the least bit concerning to me.
You simply do not understand. If Putin would have been taken out, which would have been incredibly difficult to do, you just gave Russia a reason to expand the war WITH their citizen's support. What do you think China would think about that? That the United States and the west decides to kill a leader for invading a country that isn't even an ally?
And finally, if you don't think there are options worse than Putin, you lack imagination.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 07, 2024, 09:01:20 AM
You simply do not understand. If Putin would have been taken out, which would have been incredibly difficult to do, you just gave Russia a reason to expand the war WITH their citizen's support. What do you think China would think about that? That the United States and the west decides to kill a leader for invading a country that isn't even an ally?
And finally, if you don't think there are options worse than Putin, you lack imagination.
You've obviously never watched any of The Bourne movies. It's not that hard
I feel like Muggsy never has a Plan B since he is certain Plan A will work as long as he's the one enacting it.
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 07, 2024, 09:20:05 AM
I feel like Muggsy never has a Plan B since he is certain Plan A will work as long as he's the one enacting it.
No need to worry. 1) He's not in charge of himself, so he will never be in charge of anything anywhere. 2) He doesn't
have a plan A, so a plan B is unnecessary.
I can't believe people try to rationalize with Muggsy.
Has anyone contracted the avengers about Putin?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 08:30:28 PM
That's not what I said.
That's exactly what you said, Muggs.
Quote from: BM1090 on October 07, 2024, 02:53:33 PM
That's exactly what you said, Muggs.
I didn't know there'd be fact-checking
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 07, 2024, 02:59:56 PM
I didn't know there'd be fact-checking
Muggsy was promised there would be none. It's right there in the Superbar rules.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 07, 2024, 11:29:26 AM
Has anyone contracted the avengers about Putin?
It is a job for The Thunderbolts*.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 06, 2024, 05:47:51 PM
In fact, I've had about enough of the Mullahs and Putin. The perception is we're weak now with a lame duck president and pinprick responses. Perfect time to say hello with a forceful and emphatic message.
If you think there's an impression that we're weak now, I wonder what will happen if we re-elect a former president who has apparently been regularly talking with Putin since the invasion began?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 09, 2024, 06:59:50 AM
If you think there's an impression that we're weak now, I wonder what will happen if we re-elect a former president who has apparently been regularly talking with Putin since the invasion began?
oh...so the lame street media "reports" this of curse u belief it but "heels up" is...letting illlegles vote and steel houses and ur quite 🤔
Get out of ur ocho chaimburr of msnbc and the view
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 09, 2024, 06:59:50 AM
If you think there's an impression that we're weak now, I wonder what will happen if we re-elect a former president who has apparently been regularly talking with Putin since the invasion began?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-covid-testing-devices-phone-calls-kremlin-rcna174632
That was a thoughtful gift. I imagine the attached card had hearts and 🦄 s and glitter.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 09, 2024, 07:43:48 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-covid-testing-devices-phone-calls-kremlin-rcna174632
America First!
Giving food to immigrants who escaped war-torn countries: BAD! JESUS WOULD HAVE HATED THAT!
Giving Covid supplies to a dictator who wants to wipe the United States off the face of the earth instead of to Americans, who desperately needed the supplies during the worst part of the pandemic: WONDERFUL! JESUS LOVES MURDEROUS DICTATORS!
Also: Bob Woodward is a "HACK"!
Yep. A hack who played a role in ending two presidencies, including the 45th.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on October 09, 2024, 06:59:50 AM
If you think there's an impression that we're weak now, I wonder what will happen if we re-elect a former president who has apparently been regularly talking with Putin since the invasion began?
The only people in the world that think that our previous president was strong, and respected in international relations, are republicans who don't have friends overseas, and do not travel overseas.
The former president was feared internationally, only because he disregarded alliances, and bowed down to dictators threatening the safety of the entire world. He had zero respect from anyone. Even the dictators didn't respect him, they just viewed him as an imbecile that was easy to manipulate.
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2024, 10:17:49 AM
The only people in the world that think that our previous president was strong, and respected in international relations, are republicans who don't have friends overseas, and do not travel overseas.
The former president was feared internationally, only because he disregarded alliances, and bowed down to dictators threatening the safety of the entire world. He had zero respect from anyone. Even the dictators didn't respect him, they just viewed him as an imbecile that was easy to manipulate.
My very exact thought every time I hear this stated about TFG. My international contacts state exactly as you say. My immediate family in Poland wants to know why TFG wants to just hand Poland over to Putin.
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2024, 10:17:49 AM
The only people in the world that think that our previous president was strong, and respected in international relations, are republicans who don't have friends overseas, and do not travel overseas.
The former president was feared internationally, only because he disregarded alliances, and bowed down to dictators threatening the safety of the entire world. He had zero respect from anyone. Even the dictators didn't respect him, they just viewed him as an imbecile that was easy to manipulate.
I would caveat this, I think it very much depends on the mindset and perspective of people aboard. I don't care for that sort of monolithic thinking. Nor the idea that anyone who thinks Trump is not universally reviled in decent circles internationally is a sheltered pollyanna.
Though my issues with their business and political climate/attitudes are well known, this isn't the case in India. The business people I know there love Trump and he's still viewed favorably in a decent number of circles.
I also know a few Europeans who lean heavily left socially who liked a Trump presidency for its positive impacts on their businesses/jobs. They don't live in the US, don't have family in the US, so they didn't really care about the domestic policies outside of that.
YMMV, but he biggest mockers/dislikers of Trump I run into internationally tend to scoff at American politics/culture in general, regardless of who is in charge, and they just view him as an embodiment of everything they dislike about America.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2024, 11:16:16 AM
I would caveat this, I think it very much depends on the mindset and perspective of people aboard. I don't care for that sort of monolithic thinking. Nor the idea that anyone who thinks Trump is not universally reviled in decent circles internationally is a sheltered pollyanna.
Though my issues with their business and political climate/attitudes are well known, this isn't the case in India. The business people I know there love Trump and he's still viewed favorably in a decent number of circles.
I also know a few Europeans who lean heavily left socially who liked a Trump presidency for its positive impacts on their businesses/jobs. They don't live in the US, don't have family in the US, so they didn't really care about the domestic policies outside of that.
YMMV, but he biggest mockers/dislikers of Trump I run into internationally tend to scoff at American politics/culture in general, regardless of who is in charge, and they just view him as an embodiment of everything they dislike about America.
Doesn't seem like many Europeans - outside Hungary - think much of Trump. But you're right about India, sort of, if you consider a 56% confidence rating much of a win. Then again, the people of India still think better of Biden than Trump.
What's not surprising - see second link - is that the right wing populists in Europe like him. The Alternative for German and UKIP people love him. I don't consider that a positive attribute for him.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/globally-biden-receives-higher-ratings-than-trump/
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/01/08/trump-ratings-remain-low-around-globe-while-views-of-u-s-stay-mostly-favorable/
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2024, 11:16:16 AM
I would caveat this, I think it very much depends on the mindset and perspective of people aboard. I don't care for that sort of monolithic thinking. Nor the idea that anyone who thinks Trump is not universally reviled in decent circles internationally is a sheltered pollyanna.
Though my issues with their business and political climate/attitudes are well known, this isn't the case in India. The business people I know there love Trump and he's still viewed favorably in a decent number of circles.
I also know a few Europeans who lean heavily left socially who liked a Trump presidency for its positive impacts on their businesses/jobs. They don't live in the US, don't have family in the US, so they didn't really care about the domestic policies outside of that.
YMMV, but he biggest mockers/dislikers of Trump I run into internationally tend to scoff at American politics/culture in general, regardless of who is in charge, and they just view him as an embodiment of everything they dislike about America.
I have numerous relatives in Europe, know many others there (mostly through investing circles), and do a lot of reading. The previous president is mostly viewed as a joke, but also as a potential danger. He certainly wasn't (and isn't) respected by the vast majority.
As my British niece said: "How the hell could you Americans possibly elect that clown again after he almost destroyed your country? I mean, we're stupid, too, but we only elected Boris Johnson once."