Potential Strike Tomorrow

[Scoop Snoop]

Union members just leave work cause they get a severe storm notification?

I read the initial report and it seems like a justifiably emotional response to a tragic fluke weather event.  Some of the social media response makes it seem like management remotely told people to keep working as the plant flooded, which isn't true.  I'll wait for the OSHA/local government reports, but it seems like a lot of he said she said.

And its not some corporate apologist/shill stance, from what I saw, the company is under 100 employees and $25MM in revenue, which is not big at all for a manufacturing outfit. I just see both sides of complex decisions in a smaller business setting.

That's not allowed here!

[jesmu84]

I think the implication that jesmu was making was that there needs to be a balance between automation and worker compensation.

Many places automate processes and then cut labor and pass the profits to management/ownership.

Bump.

Hards said it better than I

Edit: In my post, I didn't say making profits was bad. I didn't say technology or automation was bad. I didn't say increasing productivity was bad

[Pakuni]

Sports Unions are outliers/exceptions. Their members are elite in their field. 550 NBA players, 750 MLB players as an example. Conversely, there are 4,000,000 teachers, 10,000,000 construction workers - their strength is not in any elite skill but rather their sheer numbers.

They're not exceptions.
Professional athletes unionize for the same reasons teachers unionize for the same reason construction workers unionize. That's because, as history has proven, that left to its own devices, management will take advantage of labor.
"Elite"-ness clearly has nothing to do with it. Pro athletes were elite in the 40s, 50s and 60s, too - arguably moreso since there were fewer of them - and that didn't prevent their exploitation. What prevented their exploitation was forming a union.

[jesmu84]

They're not exceptions.
Professional athletes unionize for the same reasons teachers unionize for the same reason construction workers unionize. That's because, as history has proven, that left to its own devices, management will take advantage of labor.
"Elite"-ness clearly has nothing to do with it. Pro athletes were elite in the 40s, 50s and 60s, too - arguably moreso since there were fewer of them - and that didn't prevent their exploitation. What prevented their exploitation was forming a union.

I agree with this.

In defense of folks like scoop, it's much more prevalent at large firms

[tower912]

JWags, I appreciate your approach very much.  And I would not argue that unions are never wrong.   I know better.  I am probably the only poster here who has been on a union executive board, bargained a contact on the union side, helped found and run a union PAC, gotten to pound the table and yell at management.  I know the good and the excess.
      I look at what happened at Impact Plastics and what happened last spring in Baltimore harbor as examples of why unions are still essential.   Because, as posted above, it is inevitable that management is going to try to exploit labor and cut corners on safety.
   I believe in capitalism.  I believe we need entrepreneurs.   I believe that the people who do the physical labor need to be rewarded and protected.

[Pakuni]

I agree with this.

In defense of folks like scoop, it's much more prevalent at large firms

I have no idea if that's true or not.
That said, I don't villainize either side here. Management's job is to maximize profits, and companies seeking to maximize profits is a necessary part of a healthy economy. And unions' job is to maximize compensation and benefits for employees, and a well-compensated and fairly treated labor force is a necessary part of a healthy society.
The friction between the two is good. It ideally strikes a fair balance between the interests of both sides and everyone thrives.

[tower912]

Amen.

[JWags85]

They can refuse to come in and not get fired.   They can argue with a manager who is clearly focused on the wrong thing without getting fired.

I also see both sides.   In this case, management was wrong and people died.

There were no storm warnings or indications this would happen the morning of, the first warnings/notifications happened during the work day.

And from what I read, I never saw "we asked management and they said no".  I saw employees say they asked other employees who said they should wait to hear what management said.  I saw no stories of arguing with management who refused to let them leave.  It seems like a lot of retrospective "management should have done this".  Which like I said, is an emotionally justified response to a tragic event, but isn't some direct indictment of cruel capitalistic labor practices.

I guess my stance is more that I don't think a union would have necessarily prevented this, unless it comes out in findings that management acted far more inappropriately than has been presented.  If thats the case, the articles will come out fast and furious and IP will be sued to high heaven.

[jesmu84]

I have no idea if that's true or not.
That said, I don't villainize either side here. Management's job is to maximize profits, and companies seeking to maximize profits is a necessary part of a healthy economy. And unions' job is to maximize compensation and benefits for employees, and a well-compensated and fairly treated labor force is a necessary part of a healthy society.
The friction between the two is good. It ideally strikes a fair balance between the interests of both sides and everyone thrives.

Well said Pak

[Skatastrophy]

Technology and automation, which include monstrous shifts in the economy (industrial revolution, internet revolution, etc.), will never be adequately held back by labor or regulation. I'm thankful for that. Technology will march forward, and the old way of doing things will be crushed repeatedly.

People will have to move cities and professions to keep up with technology sometimes, and it will always be a benefit to humanity when looked at through a historical lens.

Much like the Industrial Revolution, I'm sure there was unending whining from all laborers getting automated out of their jobs. Thankfully, those people pining for the agrarian society of yesteryear.

[4everwarriors]

When the going gets tough, the tough get going

Damn straight, Bro, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Damn straight, Bro, hey?

Or declare bankruptcy and stiff contractors.

[Scoop Snoop]

Technology and automation, which include monstrous shifts in the economy (industrial revolution, internet revolution, etc.), will never be adequately held back by labor or regulation. I'm thankful for that. Technology will march forward, and the old way of doing things will be crushed repeatedly.

People will have to move cities and professions to keep up with technology sometimes, and it will always be a benefit to humanity when looked at through a historical lens.

Much like the Industrial Revolution, I'm sure there was unending whining from all laborers getting automated out of their jobs. Thankfully, those people pining for the agrarian society of yesteryear.

I just finished reading 1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.

I get that human lives, families, and communities suffer terribly when jobs are lost. The reality is that payroll, like materials, commercial property leases, equipment, supplies, marketing, sales reps, vehicles, etc., is an expense. The idea that the labor expense of manually operated gates is a sacred cow is totally ridiculous.

[4everwarriors]

Or declare bankruptcy and stiff contractors.

Or show up for 2 WH briefin's in 2+ months, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Or show up for 2 WH briefin's in 2+ months, hey?

Or bang a pornstar while your 3rd wife is home pregnant and try to cover it up with campaign donations, hey?

[Herman Cain]

Unions are gr8 if u don't believe in urself

When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.

I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.

Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.

The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "

I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.

I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.

Having the experience colored my view toward how to treat employees. In my company we treat everyone with Dignity , Respect and work to have everyone at the higher end of compensation in the industry for their respective skills sets. We have total flexibility when family emergencies and have flexible paid leave policies.  Employees value this very much.  We have never had anyone desire to unionize and in fact the employees help weed out the lousy workers as everyone wants to see the business thrive because we constantly take care of people.

[Pakuni]

When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.

I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.

Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.

The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "

I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.

I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.

This totally happened. Nothing has ever happened more than this.

[Uncle Rico]

When I was a young I worked in the grocery warehouses off of Burleigh in Milwaukee. Had no choice but to become a member of Teamsters Union Local 200.

I sucked at my job. Couldn't build my Pallet properly. Always looked like crap when they went into Truck. Was terrible on the Fork Lift. Didn't have the seniority for the easiest job which was driving the sweeper.

Management could not fire me cause I was in the union. So our of desperation , they put me in the freezer, hoping I would quit. It was -15 in that freezer. So I worked my ass off and set the all time record for picking got my picks done faster than anyone else . Management was delighted.

The Union on the other hand was pissed off. The Union Steward pulled me aside and said "Herman you have to slow down and pace yourself. Come in from the cold and enjoy the break we negotiated, we have plenty of magazines, Sports Illustrated, Playboy etc just relax and have a cup of hot cocoa. "

I kept working at record speed as I was freezing. Union Steward almost came blows with me. He did not want any evidence that the job could be done faster. I was screwing up the overtime hours for every one. I didn't care , because on what would have been overtime, I was able to get work from Truckers who needed help lumping their loads. Heavy Bananas and Meat paid more than overtime.

I did not last long in that environment and ended up focusing on school and never looked back. My fellow workers said don't forget to get your withdrawal card from the Union. It was 50 Cents. I said no , I didn't want to waste the money as I never had any intention of working for the Union again.

Having the experience colored my view toward how to treat employees. In my company we treat everyone with Dignity , Respect and work to have everyone at the higher end of compensation in the industry for their respective skills sets. We have total flexibility when family emergencies and have flexible paid leave policies.  Employees value this very much.  We have never had anyone desire to unionize and in fact the employees help weed out the lousy workers as everyone wants to see the business thrive because we constantly take care of people.

Then you had sex with Seka

[Viper]

Or bang a pornstar while your 3rd wife is home pregnant and try to cover it up with campaign donations, hey?

bribes, money laundering, tax evasion...clink time for 46?

[Uncle Rico]

bribes, money laundering, tax evasion...clink time for 46?

If he's convicted of 34 felonies like 45

[Uncle Rico]

I just finished reading 1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.

I get that human lives, families, and communities suffer terribly when jobs are lost. The reality is that payroll, like materials, commercial property leases, equipment, supplies, marketing, sales reps, vehicles, etc., is an expense. The idea that the labor expense of manually operated gates is a sacred cow is totally ridiculous.

That book was interesting, but a tedious read

[Jockey]

This totally happened. Nothing has ever happened more than this.

The dead man has told some whoppers here, but this takes the cake.

Only thing missing is the union boss calling him sir.

[JWags85]

I just finished reading 1848, the Year of Revolution. There were about 70 artisan/craftsman guilds, and they were the ones who barged into factories and took hammers to the cast iron machinery. Note that I made a reference to the furniture makers in an earlier post, pointing out the drastic decline in the cost of furniture via manufacturing efficiencies. The same mentality was present in the earlier part of the century in England when farms with mechanical equipment were invaded by hammer-wielding farm workers. One of the guilds-furniture makers -demanded that the governments require furniture factories to raise their prices so that their guild could be competitive. Here we are in 2024 and there are people who believe that the dockworkers' demand that the gates not be automated are reasonable if it means that jobs may be lost.

Something similar happened with the diamond industry in Antwerp.  The common understanding is in the 60s and 70s the Indians entered the marketplace and destroyed the cutting industry in places like Antwerp, Hatton Garden in London, NYC, etc... because they moved production to India where it was vastly cheaper.  While that is true, the change in a place like Antwerp vs NYC is related to the mentality you spoke about above.

When the Indians started stealing market share, shifting cutting volumes from Antwerp, there was a push for aggressive modernization with cutting equipment, mapping tech, etc...  Stuff that is commonplace today, but wasn't as wide spread back then.  But there was pushback from the diamantaire guild in Antwerp.  These were master craftsmen and artists, but their opinion shouldn't sway an entire industry.  Its like taking the opinion of an impressionist on house painting.  They could cut a few stones a month for large contract commissions and remain wealthy as they had for years whereas the diamond houses obviously needed volume.  But they played to the vanity and ego and the perceived je ne sais quoi of the industry there to continue the traditional ways they always had...and they got their lunch ate.  Within 20 years, Indian companies took over many old diamond houses, some of the ones that remained moved their cutting abroad to places like Thailand, Eastern Europe, etc....  Funny enough, the diamantaires were fine.  Cause there was still money and demand for huge intricate and valuable single stones to be cut there.  But now these guys are all elderly and/or deceased and there is this cry out that there is nobody young to take the reins and continue the legacy.  Well when you contribute to all the entry and mid level jobs in the industry, there is nothing to build up to being at that level.  No kid in Antwerp is growing up wanting to learn a dying art from a handful of wealthy and arrogant geriatric guys.

Would we have ended up in the same place now?  Sure, cost efficiency rules all.  But it would have been a much longer runway and different path upwards or pivots.  NYC did the opposite.  They adopted technology readily, did what they could to remain lean, etc...  Its faded the last 10 years, but there was still large scale cutting all over NYC/NJ long after Antwerp fell off.

[Warriors4ever]

Hey tower, I was a union steward and also sat on our bargaining committee. Maybe we are the only two...

[tower912]

You rock.