Shaka said it looks like it's a serious knee injury. MRI coming.
You could see it when the trainer came up to him on the live telecast, the look on Shakas face said it all.
Then, in the post game handshake I think he told Matta too, you could tell they both look dejected.
Likely over a year long recovery, which unfortunately means SJ22 won't be the starting PG for this squad next season if TyKo leaves.
Brutal break for that kid but he's a warrior, and I hope he recovers to give MUbb 2 more seasons of his tenacity.
Brutal. Prayers up for Sean. He's been an absolute spark plug for this team.
Praying for Sean. Young man has heart of a lion.
Hope the kid has a speedy recovery.
Feel bad for the young man. Wishing him a full recovery,
Dang, just when he was turning the corner into something very special as well.
Speed and burst guy w a knee. Really unfortunate. Hoping for the best.
This is horrible for this young man, it's hard to improve your game when you can not play for almost a year, might have to redshirt next year, sad
Prayers for Sean. Hoping for the best.
Quote from: DoctorV on January 10, 2024, 10:35:01 PM
You could see it when the trainer came up to him on the live telecast, the look on Shakas face said it all.
Then, in the post game handshake I think he told Matta too, you could tell they both look dejected.
Likely over a year long recovery, which unfortunately means SJ22 won't be the starting PG for this squad next season if TyKo leaves.
Brutal break for that kid but he's a warrior, and I hope he recovers to give MUbb 2 more seasons of his tenacity.
other than to finish with another college program, where is Tyko going?
Lately, I have had a series of sinking feeling, stomach turning moments watching sports. Chubb from the Miami Dolphins screaming. Hopkins from Providence wailing on the floor. And Sean. Same reaction. I can't see any way that it is a significantly different result. Poor kid. Prayers up and good luck, young man.
Eerily reminiscent of Hopkins - noncontact, acceleration move - equals ACL in all likelihood. Hit the rehab hard, SJ22!
Terribly unfortunate and sad.
This has me more concerned than the losses or how we're playing. I'd be all about the "Hey, we got our regular season accolades last year. This year is about March. Let's pull a UCONN" if our first 2 off the bench aren't out with long term injuries.
With adversity comes opportunity, so guys like Zaide and Tre may step up, and maybe getting Kolek back on the ball full time helps the offense. But we got very thin very fast.
Sean's improvements were the brightest spot on this team. Playing through injury last year, it was nice to see what he was capable of fully healthy. Now going through this sucks.
Disclaimer---I like Sean Jones and feel badly he got injured and is likely out for quite some time. I have vowed since Shaka came on board not to say negative things about an individual player during the season and have not done so. So, this is an observation, not criticism aimed at Sean.
That said, if my memory is correct, Sean started seeing more and more minutes beginning with the UW game and played decent minutes in all of the losses. I think this team is not geared up for the type of PG style played by Jones. It might be perfect next year, but not this year. Every time he is dribbling the ball means it is not in the hands of 3-4 other guys that can make things happen on offense.
Kolek standing in the corner and pointing while Sean is dribbling is a missed opportunity, imo. I believe the offense changed dramatically beginning with increased PT for Sean. Again, his style will likely be the type of PG we see in the future, but maybe not a perfect fit for this group of guys.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2024, 11:32:23 AM
Disclaimer---I like Sean Jones and feel badly he got injured and is likely out for quite some time. I have vowed since Shaka came on board not to say negative things about an individual player during the season and have not done so. So, this is an observation, not criticism aimed at Sean.
That said, if my memory is correct, Sean started seeing more and more minutes beginning with the UW game and played decent minutes in all of the losses. I think this team is not geared up for the type of PG style played by Jones. It might be perfect next year, but not this year. Every time he is dribbling the ball means it is not in the hands of 3-4 other guys that can make things happen on offense.
Kolek standing in the corner and pointing while Sean is dribbling is a missed opportunity, imo. I believe the offense changed dramatically beginning with increased PT for Sean. Again, his style will likely be the type of PG we see in the future, but maybe not a perfect fit for this group of guys.
Idk. He absolutely took over against Creighton and was unstoppable to the basket against Kansas. 2 Quad1A wins. He's pretty damn good.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 11, 2024, 11:39:12 AM
Idk. He absolutely took over against Creighton and was unstoppable to the basket against Kansas. 2 Quad1A wins. He's pretty damn good.
He also hit that massive trifecta to beat UCLA.
He has big upside and has had some great games/moments this season.
He has some big holes in his game and can be a liability at times.
Both of these things can be (and are) true.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 11, 2024, 11:44:04 AM
He has big upside and has had some great games/moments this season.
He has some big holes in his game and can be a liability at times.
Both of these things can be (and are) true.
If Zaide and Tre can play defense (which I'm pretty confident they can) maybe they can shoot better from 3 than Sean and Chase did and give us a little boost in that sense. Then if Chase can get healthy it would be a boost in March that could come at the perfect time.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 11, 2024, 11:44:04 AM
He has big upside and has had some great games/moments this season.
He has some big holes in his game and can be a liability at times.
Both of these things can be (and are) true.
This. I think he got a bit too into "take over" mode at times. But is definitely a great piece for the team. Let's how tre and zaide can benefit from these minutes
I get what Goose is saying. Having Kolek and Sean in the game together takes the ball out of Kolek's hands where he is most dangerous.
But Sean has been a very valuable contributor this year and his shot was looking much better as well. We absolutely need him next year (and will miss him this year). Prayers for his recovery!
If Kam and Kolek continue their shooting woes, this team is sunk. Everything opens up if someone is a threat to hit from outside.
I think Sean Jones style is the future of PG play at MU, not just this year. This team is such a once in lifetime makeup of a roster that it blows my mind. Having TK and Oso become what they have become as players and styles is not going to ever happen again. Not taking advantage of two unique players is beyond silly in my mind and having Sean Jones running up the court dribbling the ball at 110mph with spotty success did not register with me.
Someone pointed out his play against Kansas and Creighton and there were some very good moments. That said, in a two minute stretch in the first half against Creighton he has three missed shots and two turnovers. On each possession the ball hardly left his hands. One of the missed shots was off of a rebound of his own missed shot.
IMO, the offense changed and stalled when Sean got more minutes. I think once it is a 100% Shake recruited roster that Sean Jones and other PG like him will be the star of the show. At the moment, MU has at least three better players to highlight on offense.
I agree with Goose. Sean is a blur with the ball, but over dribbles and is foul prone because he is a reach in culprit.
He is the consummate PG coming off the bench, providing an exciting lift, but has been inconsistent. Some games great, some extremely poor. Last night before his injury, he was not playing well.
If recovered, doubtful if ACL and recovery time, he could be the PG next year, which at this point the team might be abit underwhelming if no additions.
Looking for 2025 and hoping MU can get a commitment from Nigel James or Nyk Lewis, two big time point guard targets on Shaka's list. Both have been on ESPN's game coverage and their abilities have been noted on the recruiting thread and their interest/visits to MU.
Hope it all works out for Sean, probably a long and frustrating recovery process.
Quote from: nyg on January 11, 2024, 01:27:11 PM
I agree with Goose. Sean is a blur with the ball, but over dribbles and is foul prone because he is a reach in culprit.
He is the consummate PG coming off the bench, providing an exciting lift, but has been inconsistent. Some games great, some extremely poor. Last night before his injury, he was not playing well.
If recovered, doubtful if ACL and recovery time, he could be the PG next year, which at this point the team might be abit underwhelming if no additions.
Looking for 2025 and hoping MU can get a commitment from Nigel James or Nyk Lewis, two big time point guard targets on Shaka's list. Both have been on ESPN's game coverage and their abilities have been noted on the recruiting thread and their interest/visits to MU.
Hope it all works out for Sean, probably a long and frustrating recovery process.
Our MRIs must be slow developing. Providence had the bad news out on Hopkins in the morning.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 11, 2024, 01:36:29 PM
Our MRIs must be slow developing. Providence had the bad news out on Hopkins in the morning.
Working on a bionic leg
I'm still waiting on Chase's MRI from Monday...
East coast bias.
Sometimes need to let swelling decrease before obvesrving a conclusive MRI post injury
dr. panda has spoken.
Confirmed ACL. Dang.
Folks that don't watch MUBB night in and night out might look at Sean's metrics and not realize what a significant loss this is. Sean provided a much needed spark in several games this year, at least one or two of which we probably don't win without him. Kid is a winner and I wish him the very best in his recovery. Extremely bummed for him and the team.
Quote from: PistolPete on January 11, 2024, 05:20:15 PM
Folks that don't watch MUBB night in and night out might look at Sean's metrics and not realize what a significant loss this is. Sean provided a much needed spark in several games this year, at least one or two of which we probably don't win without him. Kid is a winner and I wish him the very best in his recovery. Extremely bummed for him and the team.
Agreed
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2024, 05:19:24 PM
Source?
https://twitter.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1745584349041291295?t=2Y8aZzVLH2VdzISISynpOw&s=19
Get well soon, Sean. Prayers up.
Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks for Sean. Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks. The suckiest suck sucking sucky sucks. Just awful
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 11, 2024, 05:38:08 PM
Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks for Sean. Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks. The suckiest suck sucking sucky sucks. Just awful
This about sums it up
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 11, 2024, 05:38:08 PM
Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks for Sean. Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks. The suckiest suck sucking sucky sucks. Just awful
Exactly right. Sucks to high heaven. Get well soon young man and stay strong.
Here I thought last night's game couldn't get any worse after I walked out of Fiserv. Brutal
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 11, 2024, 05:38:08 PM
Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks for Sean. Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks. The suckiest suck sucking sucky sucks. Just awful
It was almost as quiet in FiFo as when Dom fractured his foot. Everyone around me whispered to their neighbor: "ACL"
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 11, 2024, 06:36:03 PM
It was almost as quiet in FiFo as when Dom fractured his foot. Everyone around me whispered to their neighbor: "ACL"
You could tell by the look on Lowery's face that he knew what it was.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2024, 12:55:16 PM
I think Sean Jones style is the future of PG play at MU, not just this year. This team is such a once in lifetime makeup of a roster that it blows my mind. Having TK and Oso become what they have become as players and styles is not going to ever happen again. Not taking advantage of two unique players is beyond silly in my mind and having Sean Jones running up the court dribbling the ball at 110mph with spotty success did not register with me.
Someone pointed out his play against Kansas and Creighton and there were some very good moments. That said, in a two minute stretch in the first half against Creighton he has three missed shots and two turnovers. On each possession the ball hardly left his hands. One of the missed shots was off of a rebound of his own missed shot.
IMO, the offense changed and stalled when Sean got more minutes. I think once it is a 100% Shake recruited roster that Sean Jones and other PG like him will be the star of the show. At the moment, MU has at least three better players to highlight on offense.
Nah. You know a decent amount of ball but this ain't it.
You're used to the wizardry and passing ability of Tyler, his surgical ability to read the game, diagnose an angle, and deliver the perfect pass that when someone like Sean comes roaring down the court with his "over dribbling" and makes a mistake it's magnified.
Sean had some of the most impressive 13 minutes offensively of any guard on Marquettes roster this season in the game against Creighton.
In that moment in time in the 2nd half, with the game on the line, he was tough, calculated, and effective scoring inside and out.
And that wasn't the only time. His speed breaks down good organized defenses in a way the other guards can't.
Whether playing him with TyKo was a correct move, versus as a complete dichotomous change of pace in his place I won't argue, that's the coaches call.
-How can the offense change and stall when Sean Jones got more minutes when he literally single handedly scored like 8 or Marquettes 10 points in the most crucial 8 minutes of the Creighton game, when he only played 13?
-Or how about at SH when he came in and the team went on an immediate run offensively, he sat and SH went up 10, he came in under 2:30 and MU immediately got within 1?
The kid had his two best games of the season in the last 3 and it's a shame and a huge loss that his season is over. Claiming that the team suffered offensively because of him after the last few games is a huge reach.
If Tre sticks around he's gonna be the point guard. He hasn't shown it quite yet, but at the prep level he was really good at controlling pace and not getting sped up.
Sean is a perfect change of pace back up off the bench. But his size and shooting are huge limitations.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2024, 11:42:24 PM
If Tre sticks around he's gonna be the point guard. He hasn't shown it quite yet, but at the prep level he was really good at controlling pace and not getting sped up.
Sean is a perfect change of pace back up off the bench. But his size and shooting are huge limitations.
There's a reason Tre gets off the bench before Zaide despite Zaide playing better than him so far. The staff really like Tre but he has not shown it in games yet
Doctor V
Not sure if you read my entire posts on Sean or not, but I like him as a player. Yes, he had a great second half against Creighton and provided a big spark at SH. That said, the beauty of the MU offense the past two years has been it moves the ball quickly and everyone is involved.
Actually, Sean was on the court in the Kansas game when the offense had its finest possession this season. In the first half there were four passes made without a dribble, two guys passed up up pretty open 3's to hit Ben Gold with no one within 7-8 feet of him. That is the offense looks the best. That has been MIA more than not the past month.
As I noted in earlier post, I do not think we will ever see this type of roster ever again. Unique players that ran an offense almost to perfection for 1+ years and then it stalled. I am not blaming Sean, just pointing out his style might not be a great fit for this years team.
There is no doubt in my mind that his style will be perfect in the post TK, Oso era because the style of play will be different.
Lastly, IMO the offense was exceptional for a long time because it was team driven. If a 13 minute run by one guy is how you evaluate the big picture, that's fine. Again, I like Sean as a player and might really like him down the road when the team has a different look.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 12, 2024, 12:23:10 AM
There's a reason Tre gets off the bench before Zaide despite Zaide playing better than him so far. The staff really like Tre but he has not shown it in games yet
It would be great if Tre starts showing something in games. I'm not sure what offensive skills or tools he has to be a high impact offensive player.
What I've seen so far:
He's not that quick or explosive
His handle can't break down a defense
His passing looks average
He's not a great shooter
I know freshman can improve a lot as their careers progress. But right now, I expect Tre to have a Stevie Mitchell or Sacar Anim level career. But when he signed, I was hoping for more of a Jerel McNeal type trajectory.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on January 12, 2024, 08:04:54 AM
It would be great if Tre starts showing something in games. I'm not sure what offensive skills or tools he has to be a high impact offensive player.
What I've seen so far:
He's not that quick or explosive
His handle can't break down a defense
His passing looks average
He's not a great shooter
I know freshman can improve a lot as their careers progress. But right now, I expect Tre to have a Stevie Mitchell or Sacar Anim level career. But when he signed, I was hoping for more of a Jerel McNeal type trajectory.
You were hoping that a borderline top 100 recruit would be on the same trajectory as the programs 2nd all time leading scorer?
Don't know if Sean will fully recover his speed and quickness or not, but I sure hope so. Yes, he periodically still lets his speed get out of control, and he plays a different pg game than Tyler. But, he sure is fun to watch when he is playing well. And his defense will certainly be missed. Maybe he can recover and rehab in time to be ready for next season. In the meantime, we will find out if Tre Norman can play or not because Tyler cannot play forty minutes. Kam and perhaps even Stevie can give a little help at the point, but Tre is going to have to play.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 08:29:25 AM
You were hoping that a borderline top 100 recruit would be on the same trajectory as the programs 2nd all time leading scorer?
Wasn't Shaka hyping Tre up at one of the Chicago luncheons? "Best guard" he's ever recruited, I believe.
Based on that, I was expecting a player that could compete for immediate playing time as a freshman. Someone with star upside as a junior/senior. Someone like Jerel McNeal (not necessarily being a top 5 Marquette all time scorer, mind you, but in general terms).
In the preseason, TAMU was saying Tre would be better than Sean Jones. TAMU seems well connected to MUBB, so I put stock in what he posts. Not only was Sean playing better than Tre, but it wasn't even close.
Instead, Tre has played fewer minutes than freshman Stevie Mitchell. Sure, this team is better than the one from 3 years ago. But Tre hasn't even shown flashes in games.
For example, against Notre Dame, Tre struggled to generate shots with the 2nd unit. The bench offense was basically Sean Jones drive, and either shoot or kick out to Ben Gold.
Hopefully, Tre starts to find his groove. Shaka's hand is forced. He has to play Tre and Zaide now.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on January 12, 2024, 09:13:09 AM
Wasn't Shaka hyping Tre up at one of the Chicago luncheons? "Best guard" he's ever recruited, I believe.
Based on that, I was expecting a player that could compete for immediate playing time as a freshman. Someone with star upside as a junior/senior. Someone like Jerel McNeal (not necessarily being a top 5 Marquette all time scorer, mind you, but in general terms).
In the preseason, TAMU was saying Tre would be better than Sean Jones. TAMU seems well connected to MUBB, so I put stock in what he posts. Not only was Sean playing better than Tre, but it wasn't even close.
Instead, Tre has played fewer minutes than freshman Stevie Mitchell. Sure, this team is better than the one from 3 years ago. But Tre hasn't even shown flashes in games.
For example, against Notre Dame, Tre struggled to generate shots with the 2nd unit. The bench offense was basically Sean Jones drive, and either shoot or kick out to Ben Gold.
Hopefully, Tre starts to find his groove. Shaka's hand is forced. He has to play Tre and Zaide now.
I think you were taking "coach talk" a little to seriously. When we returned our entire backcourt from a conference championship team my expectations for a borderline top 100 Freshman were very low. I think he has the potential to be a great player as an upperclassman, and you're right that Shaka's hand is now forced, but man, this board has a history of overhyping Freshman before they step foot on a court.
To me, at least offensively, Tre looks like a guy who has played PG, with the ball in his hands, his entire basketball career who has had to adjust to playing off ball while Kolek and Sean Jones handle it. Still trying to find his spots and get comfortable attacking from different spots.
Hopefully playing a little more on ball now gets him a little more comfortable.
Tre Norman put up EYBL numbers that had only been matched previously by All-Americans and #1 overall NBA Draft picks. I thought he would be a lot more ready than he's looked. So far, Zaide has been the best freshman, IMO.
Tre's shot is flatter than Gold's. And a lot of people here complain about Ben's shot. Seems like an easy fix but it's also getting flatter as the season goes on
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 08:29:25 AM
You were hoping that a borderline top 100 recruit would be on the same trajectory as the programs 2nd all time leading scorer?
Jerel was a borderline top 100 recruit too
Well, for those who wanted to see the ball in Kolek's hands even more, your wish has been granted.
Assuming Norman isn't quite ready for the task, the backup PG probably will be Kam, right? Or a Kam/Stevie combo.
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 09:43:33 AM
Jerel was a borderline top 100 recruit too
That greatly exceeded his HS ranking. Expecting that from every borderline top 100 recruit is fools gold IMO.
Has to be a Kam/Stevie combo. I still think Norman is best suited as 8th man, coming in more as a wing or ball-handling duties only when a game is out of hand.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 09:52:50 AM
That greatly exceeded his HS ranking. Expecting that from every borderline top 100 recruit is fools gold IMO.
Would love to see your timestamps saying Jerel would be the schools 2nd leading scorer during his freshman year.
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 09:54:51 AM
Would love to see your timestamps saying Jerel would be the schools 2nd leading scorer during his freshman year.
It doesn't exist bc nobody expected that. The same way nobody should have expected Tre to be on the same trajectory (especially when he was walking into a full backcourt rather than being thrown into the starting lineup from day one).
Not really sure what point you're trying to make. Mine is, in general, keep expectations low for borderline top 100 recruits during their Freshman season.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 09:57:53 AM
It doesn't exist bc nobody expected that. The same way nobody should have expected Tre to be on the same trajectory (especially when he was walking into a full backcourt rather than being thrown into the starting lineup from day one).
Not really sure what point you're trying to make. Mine is, in general, keep expectations low for borderline top 100 recruits during their Freshman season.
Using Jerel as a point of reference in this instance is flawed.
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 10:02:07 AM
Using Jerel as a point of reference in this instance is flawed.
I agree, I was also not the one that first made that reference.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 09:31:31 AM
Tre Norman put up EYBL numbers that had only been matched previously by All-Americans and #1 overall NBA Draft picks. I thought he would be a lot more ready than he's looked. So far, Zaide has been the best freshman, IMO.
This is another data point worth mentioning. When Tre signed, he was coming off a very good summer. Stevie was coming off a pretty 'meh' freshman year.
Obviously, Stevie became entrenched as a starter by the end of his sophomore year. But as I mentioned, when Tre *signed* there were different expectations.
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 10:02:07 AM
Using Jerel as a point of reference in this instance is flawed.
Yeah, I'm done comparing recruits to past players or having any expectations for them. Expectations just lead to disappointment.
Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2024, 09:49:11 AM
Well, for those who wanted to see the ball in Kolek's hands even more, your wish has been granted.
Good. Best thing for the team IMO. I think taking Kolek off the ball was a huge mistake, perhaps made as part of longer term thinking, but has been bad for the team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 09:31:31 AM
Tre Norman put up EYBL numbers that had only been matched previously by All-Americans and #1 overall NBA Draft picks.
#FakeNews #Lies
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 10:02:07 AM
Using Jerel as a point of reference in this instance is flawed.
Agree. Scoop should comp him to the lower rated DWade.
#expectexcellence
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 12, 2024, 10:26:47 AM
#FakeNews #Lies
https://twitter.com/MikeYagmin/status/1567303891187863554
#1 NBA Draft picks: Cade Cunningham, Ben Simmons, Paolo Banchero
McDonald's All-Americans: Isaiah Briscoe, B.J. Boston, Simi Shittu, Keldon Johnson, Cam Reddish
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 12, 2024, 10:29:27 AM
Agree. Scoop should comp him to the lower rated DWade.
#expectexcellence
Mixtape made a fair comparison of two similarly ranked freshman players coming out of high school.
Djo made a bad comparison (imo) initially. No one predicted Jerel would be second leading scorer in school history as a freshman. He was simply a valued contributor his first year. Tre isn't that yet, but with his role about to expand, he has a golden opportunity to prove the doubters wrong.
Sorry to delve into low level pedantics. snow day sadness
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on January 12, 2024, 10:25:25 AM
Yeah, I'm done comparing recruits to past players or having any expectations for them. Expectations just lead to disappointment.
When you set the bar that high for a Freshman, more often than not, yes those expectations will lead to disappointment. Tre was never going to walk into a starting role from day one and get 27 minutes per game. If you don't want to get called out for a bad comparison, don't make a bad comparison.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 10:40:13 AM
When you set the bar that high for a Freshman, more often than not, yes those expectations will lead to disappointment. Tre was never going to walk into a starting role from day one and get 27 minutes per game. If you don't want to get called out for a bad comparison, don't make a bad comparison.
Also, I'm not comparing Tre to those players or saying my expectations for him were to be a one-and-done lottery pick. I did expect that he would be able to be an immediate positive bench contributor, similar to what we've seen with Kam Jones in 2022 and Chase Ross in 2023. That doesn't feel like an unrealistic expectation for a guy who was putting up the numbers he did in AAU.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2024, 10:25:39 AM
Good. Best thing for the team IMO. I think taking Kolek off the ball was a huge mistake, perhaps made as part of longer term thinking, but has been bad for the team.
Agree. I'm one who wanted to see the ball in Kolek's hands more.
But I do get why Kolek had to play off the ball more when he was on the court with Sean. While Sean is not an effective off-the-ball guy at all, Kolek had become a reliable 3-point shooter (until lately). So if you were gonna get Sean 10-15 minutes, and you didn't want to sit Kolek that entire 10-15 minutes, you had to mostly play Kolek off the ball.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 10:44:31 AM
Also, I'm not comparing Tre to those players or saying my expectations for him were to be a one-and-done lottery pick. I did expect that he would be able to be an immediate positive bench contributor, similar to what we've seen with Kam Jones in 2022 and Chase Ross in 2023. That doesn't feel like an unrealistic expectation for a guy who was putting up the numbers he did in AAU.
I guess it's just a different philosophy that I would rather have low expectations and be pleasantly surprised by Freshman Kam/Chase than be disappointed by Tre.
My general rule of thumb (obvious Henry-esque exception) is that on day one Freshman don't look lost. IMO Tre hasn't, his minutes were inconsistent pre injury crisis but he was getting in, working hard, learning, and not just running around with a deer in the headlights look. By the end of a Freshman season, I want to be able to think that there's a good chance that they can make a jump next year. I don't think Tre's at that point yet, but he still has 15+ games to get there, and will certainly get the opportunity with the current injuries.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 10:40:13 AM
When you set the bar that high for a Freshman, more often than not, yes those expectations will lead to disappointment. Tre was never going to walk into a starting role from day one and get 27 minutes per game. If you don't want to get called out for a bad comparison, don't make a bad comparison.
I don't give a crap about getting called out. I'm an adult and can admit when I'm wrong.
Yep, I was wrong. Happy?
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on January 12, 2024, 11:11:05 AM
I don't give a crap about getting called out. I'm an adult and can admit when I'm wrong.
Yep, I was wrong. Happy?
It seems like you give a crap about getting called out because you're getting pretty defensive about it, but it also seems like you'd like to move on.
Tre hasn't met your expectations as of yet. Nothing wrong with having that opinion, I just disagree with where that expectation level should be.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 11:13:44 AM
It seems like you give a crap about getting called out because you're getting pretty defensive about it, but it also seems like you'd like to move on.
Tre hasn't met your expectations as of yet. Nothing wrong with having that opinion, I just disagree with where that expectation level should be.
"Have a nice day. -Bon Jovi-"
-Juan Anderson's Mixtape
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 10:38:19 AM
Mixtape made a fair comparison of two similarly ranked freshman players coming out of high school.
Djo made a bad comparison (imo) initially. No one predicted Jerel would be second leading scorer in school history as a freshman. He was simply a valued contributor his first year. Tre isn't that yet, but with his role about to expand, he has a golden opportunity to prove the doubters wrong.
Sorry to delve into low level pedantics. snow day sadness
We made the same comparison, how is one fair and one bad?
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 10:35:50 AM
https://twitter.com/MikeYagmin/status/1567303891187863554
#1 NBA Draft picks: Cade Cunningham, Ben Simmons, Paolo Banchero
McDonald's All-Americans: Isaiah Briscoe, B.J. Boston, Simi Shittu, Keldon Johnson, Cam Reddish
We're looking at per game averages these days? Yikes
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 12, 2024, 11:34:25 AM
We made the same comparison, how is one fair and one bad?
I don't think it's too far fetched comparing on a Marquette message board, two similarly ranked, high performing high school standouts with similar profiles, both attending marquette.
That's just me.
Quote from: panda on January 12, 2024, 12:01:58 PM
I don't think it's too far fetched comparing on a Marquette message board, two similarly ranked, high performing high school standouts with similar profiles, both attending marquette.
That's just me.
I'm having a real hard time understanding your train of thought here.
Comparing them by saying that they're similarly ranked is one thing. But hoping for Jerel's career trajectory is another completely. My only point is that if we hope that every incoming borderline top 100 Freshman has Jerel's trajectory, we're going to be disappointed 99% of the time (no matter what kind of AAU number they put up).
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 12, 2024, 11:50:52 AM
We're looking at per game averages these days? Yikes
I believe the phrase you're looking for was "I was wrong."
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 02:05:52 PM
I believe the phrase you're looking for was "I was wrong."
Not at all. He's got bad per game data to boot.
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 12, 2024, 02:38:49 PM
Not at all. He's got bad per game data to boot.
Jon Rothstien begs to differ
Quote from: Goose on January 12, 2024, 04:19:29 AM
Doctor V
Not sure if you read my entire posts on Sean or not, but I like him as a player. Yes, he had a great second half against Creighton and provided a big spark at SH. That said, the beauty of the MU offense the past two years has been it moves the ball quickly and everyone is involved.
Actually, Sean was on the court in the Kansas game when the offense had its finest possession this season. In the first half there were four passes made without a dribble, two guys passed up up pretty open 3's to hit Ben Gold with no one within 7-8 feet of him. That is the offense looks the best. That has been MIA more than not the past month.
As I noted in earlier post, I do not think we will ever see this type of roster ever again. Unique players that ran an offense almost to perfection for 1+ years and then it stalled. I am not blaming Sean, just pointing out his style might not be a great fit for this years team.
There is no doubt in my mind that his style will be perfect in the post TK, Oso era because the style of play will be different.
Lastly, IMO the offense was exceptional for a long time because it was team driven. If a 13 minute run by one guy is how you evaluate the big picture, that's fine. Again, I like Sean as a player and might really like him down the road when the team has a different look.
Good post, thanks for clarifying.
I remember that play versus Kansas, it was a beauty.
Two of my other favorite Sean plays of the season were the reverse layup with contact versus Creighton- I was sitting behind that basket and it was a game changer- and the pass up of a wide open 3 and dish to Oso at SH to get MU back within 1.
As for the 13 minute run by one guy thing- that's more of "this team is in a bad funk right now and needs a massive spark" and here comes Sean to save the day a few times of late.
Definitely not how I evaluate the big picture, but also definitely a necessary part of a quality team over a long season and especially into single elimination play.
Maybe the problem is that the team and offense have been having too many of these types of funks in the first place.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2024, 09:31:31 AM
Tre Norman put up EYBL numbers that had only been matched previously by All-Americans and #1 overall NBA Draft picks. I thought he would be a lot more ready than he's looked. So far, Zaide has been the best freshman, IMO.
100%. Just as Ross was clearly by far the best frosh last year.
Like everyone else, I really love Sean's heart, motor and D-tenancity and wish him all the best for a speedy and full recovery.
But - is this particular team better with him off the floor - particularly on the offensive end - at least given how he was being utilized? On a macro level, we're 6-0 since he went down and were 3-3 in the six before that. Our Torvik game score average over our last six is 93 - in the previous 6 just 75, our O efficiency to 126 from 104, while our D efficiency has slipped from 92 to 98. Roughly, it seems like his 15-20 minutes have largely gone to Tyler (~3 or 4), Stevie (~5 or 6) and the Freshman/Chase. Both Tyler (+4.9) and Stevie (+2.2) much higher PRPG than Sean (+1.1) although he beats out the freshmen. I don't know how to pull the advanced O and D stats by who is on the floor, but if someone can that would be interesting too.
But tactically, and I also don't know where to find these stats to hand, in addition to Tyler playing more, my strong impression is that he is playing on the ball more. I think it's safe to say Tyler and the team are much better offensively when Tyler is on the ball. Of course it's hard to attribute the team-wide poor shooting during the 3-3 stretch to Sean (especially since a lot of those were open looks) but is it just coincidence that the offensive has been flowing much better with no Sean on the floor (and more Tyler on the ball)?
Obviously it would be better to have a healthy Sean on the bench - but was Shaka actually utilizing him (and the team) correctly when he was healthy? The numbers suggest perhaps not.
Quote from: 1SE on February 05, 2024, 01:13:06 AM
Like everyone else, I really love Sean's heart, motor and D-tenancity and wish him all the best for a speedy and full recovery.
But - is this particular team better with him off the floor - particularly on the offensive end - at least given how he was being utilized? On a macro level, we're 6-0 since he went down and were 3-3 in the six before that. Our Torvik game score average over our last six is 93 - in the previous 6 just 75, our O efficiency to 126 from 104, while our D efficiency has slipped from 92 to 98. Roughly, it seems like his 15-20 minutes have largely gone to Tyler (~3 or 4), Stevie (~5 or 6) and the Freshman/Chase. Both Tyler (+4.9) and Stevie (+2.2) much higher PRPG than Sean (+1.1) although he beats out the freshmen. I don't know how to pull the advanced O and D stats by who is on the floor, but if someone can that would be interesting too.
But tactically, and I also don't know where to find these stats to hand, in addition to Tyler playing more, my strong impression is that he is playing on the ball more. I think it's safe to say Tyler and the team are much better offensively when Tyler is on the ball. Of course it's hard to attribute the team-wide poor shooting during the 3-3 stretch to Sean (especially since a lot of those were open looks) but is it just coincidence that the offensive has been flowing much better with no Sean on the floor (and more Tyler on the ball)?
Obviously it would be better to have a healthy Sean on the bench - but was Shaka actually utilizing him (and the team) correctly when he was healthy? The numbers suggest perhaps not.
Yeah I've already said this, that I think imo the team is better this year the way we are currently constructed if everyone else is healthy.
Injury obviously blows for Sean, hurts our depth and hurts progress for next year.
But having TK on the ball almost exclusively now and more minutes for Stevie seems to be a big positive. Plus it's developing other younger guys.
Well, there is no other way to use Sean Jones than to have him on the ball. He would not help space the court at all standing outside the 3-point line and waiting for passes.
Numerous Scoopers, while expressing disappointment on behalf of Sean, did opine that the offense likely would operate better with Kolek on the ball more. And that has proven correct.
Sean's contributions this season - huge shots against Illinois and UCLA, and a great performance against Creighton - will not and should not be forgotten. We quite possibly go 0-3 in those games without him. I love the kid's energy and tenacity, too. But it's hard to argue against the notion that this team's best chance at March/April success will come with Kolek on the ball as much as possible.
Bayesian Performance Rating.
Points per 100 possessions of offense and defense per player better than the average college player.
Tyler Kolek- 7.01
Oso Igodaharo - 6.22
Stevie Mitchell- 5.44
Kam Jones- 5.18
David Joplin- 4.34
Chase Ross- 4.22
Ben Gold- 3.45
Tre Norman- 2.07
Zaide Lowery- 1.39
Sean Jones - 1.1
Al Amadou- -0.79 (playing next to walkons 80% of the time)
Quote from: jfp61 on February 05, 2024, 08:06:46 AM
Bayesian Performance Rating.
Points per 100 possessions of offense and defense per player better than the average college player.
Tyler Kolek- 7.01
Oso Igodaharo - 6.22
Stevie Mitchell- 5.44
Kam Jones- 5.18
David Joplin- 4.34
Chase Ross- 4.22
Ben Gold- 3.45
Tre Norman- 2.07
Zaide Lowery- 1.39
Sean Jones - 1.1
Al Amadou- -0.79 (playing next to walkons 80% of the time)
That's an interesting stat. Thanks for providing.
Curious how many players rank higher than Kolek, and what their scores are.
Quote from: MU82 on February 05, 2024, 09:08:29 AM
That's an interesting stat. Thanks for providing.
Curious how many players rank higher than Kolek, and what their scores are.
https://evanmiya.com/
Kolek is 18th.
It's per possession rated. Pretty much all players on top 10 teams ahead
Quote from: jfp61 on February 05, 2024, 09:17:39 AM
https://evanmiya.com/
Kolek is 18th.
It's per possession rated. Pretty much all players on top 10 teams ahead
Super interesting. Thanks jfb.
We'll see how it goes the rest of the season. Our last 6 hasn't exactly been a murderer's row, but the offense definitely looks crisper. Offenses will do that when they're making open shots, though.
Sean had a huge game against Creighton and was huge for MU against UCONN last year. He can get into guys like Newton and Ashworth defensively. Stevie obviously can too, but having them both available can be huge.
Sean's had some big moments against some of the stronger competition we've played against.
There is no doubt in my mind that the offense runs far better without Sean on the court. He really cannot play anything other than PG and his style changes the flow of the offense. I am looking forward to watching him in the future, but this team needs to be led by the two AA's on the team. MU needs to ride TK and Oso for as long as they can this season.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 10:08:04 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that the offense runs far better without Sean on the court. He really cannot play anything other than PG and his style changes the flow of the offense. I am looking forward to watching him in the future, but this team needs to be led by the two AA's on the team. MU needs to ride TK and Oso for as long as they can this season.
I think they need to pack TKO. Oso, and Kam in bubble wrap after the regular season until the NCAA tourney
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 10:08:04 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that the offense runs far better without Sean on the court. He really cannot play anything other than PG and his style changes the flow of the offense. I am looking forward to watching him in the future, but this team needs to be led by the two AA's on the team. MU needs to ride TK and Oso for as long as they can this season.
Defensively JTY can be a game changer and he's got some swag Goose. So while I agree with your points on offensive flow, I still think he's missed as someone who can provide.a needed spark or spell Tyko. You are absolutely correct that our two A-A's must lead us to the promised land but this team is at its best when we get solid contributions across the board.
I'm hopeful that Kam's recent shredding of Georgetown will elevate his confidence down the homestretch. MU is really good when we are turning teams over and attacking all over the floor. When Kam and Jop in particular are splashing threes we're exceedingly dangerous and can beat anyone in the country. We are also the most exciting team in college basketball when we're clicking on all cylinders.
Muggsy
I like Sean Jones, but the offense stalled when he was running the point. There definitely is a big enough body of work to look at and the offense is much better with TK running the show. Sean definitely adds an added dimension on both of sides of the ball and it should be on full display when he returns. For now, I am very happy that TK is not playing off the ball for extended time.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 10:37:43 AM
Muggsy
I like Sean Jones, but the offense stalled when he was running the point. There definitely is a big enough body of work to look at and the offense is much better with TK running the show. Sean definitely adds an added dimension on both of sides of the ball and it should be on full display when he returns. For now, I am very happy that TK is not playing off the ball for extended time.
That's fair. I think that having our 3 toughest conf games to close the season is a huge plus Goose. This team should be primed and ready. We control our own destiny and must seize this tremendous opportunity moving forward. A deep run is right there for us imo.
muggsy
Pretty easy formula for MU, keep playing lockdown D, pass the ball and make their shots. It is going to be a fun next couple of months.
Quote from: MU82 on February 05, 2024, 07:48:32 AM
Well, there is no other way to use Sean Jones than to have him on the ball. He would not help space the court at all standing outside the 3-point line and waiting for passes.
Numerous Scoopers, while expressing disappointment on behalf of Sean, did opine that the offense likely would operate better with Kolek on the ball more. And that has proven correct.
Sean's contributions this season - huge shots against Illinois and UCLA, and a great performance against Creighton - will not and should not be forgotten. We quite possibly go 0-3 in those games without him. I love the kid's energy and tenacity, too. But it's hard to argue against the notion that this team's best chance at March/April success will come with Kolek on the ball as much as possible.
Phenomenal post! Could not encapsulate my feelings any more. And of course, with an emphasis on appreciating Sean's massive leap this year and also adding how he's lately become a valuable coach with a keen eye.
Wishing him a speedy recovery and that he comes back better than ever next year.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 10:53:21 AM
muggsy
Pretty easy formula for MU, keep playing lockdown D, pass the ball and make their shots. It is going to be a fun next couple of months.
Exactly, Goose.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, no pun intended, as I started a thread on the subject of the speed at which we play, both in the half court and in transition... but I would add only that we continue to look to pick apart defenses with our amazing combination of decisive speed and precision.
As we get nearer to March, I expect the coaching staff to prepare our guys to exhort and exploit this same level of decisiveness, speed, and precision against more physical teams. Shaka and his brilliant staff know how to press our advantages, and I can't wait for the post-season.
GoFast
I watched a good amount of basketball this weekend and UConn looked like the best of the bunch from what I saw. Watching UW-Purdue game and thought if MU is playing well, I would take MU in a best of seven series against both of them. Having two AA's is a special treat especially when you have the additional pieces MU has on the roster. I was very high on them in November, like many MU fans, and higher on them now. I am very much looking forward to the UConn game to see how they matchup.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 11:17:44 AM
GoFast
I watched a good amount of basketball this weekend and UConn looked like the best of the bunch from what I saw. Watching UW-Purdue game and thought if MU is playing well, I would take MU in a best of seven series against both of them. Having two AA's is a special treat especially when you have the additional pieces MU has on the roster. I was very high on them in November, like many MU fans, and higher on them now. I am very much looking forward to the UConn game to see how they matchup.
I think Purdue is the real deal as well. Not many teams go into the Troll Center and shoot more FTs than UW-Madison.
They waxed them on the glass, too, a key advantage the Badgers have had all season. Doing that against them in Madison impressed me.
They're 5th in the nation in 3-point shooting and won yesterday only making 3. They got help from Wisconsin going 3-19 in the same category but that place was hype yesterday for that game and Purdue never looked rattled until the final minute and even then, they made their free throws and got good shots.
I think they're a terrible matchup for Marquette and hope to avoid them until the Final 4, tbh.
Regarding Purdue, I wonder if we could pressure their guards more on the perimeter to make it harder to initiate their offense. I know they tried to do that with only occasional success in Maui, but I wonder if it would be different not having played two games the two days prior.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 05, 2024, 11:24:43 AM
I think Purdue is the real deal as well. Not many teams go into the Troll Center and shoot more FTs than UW-Madison.
They waxed them on the glass, too, a key advantage the Badgers have had all season. Doing that against them in Madison impressed me.
They're 5th in the nation in 3-point shooting and won yesterday only making 3. They got help from Wisconsin going 3-19 in the same category but that place was hype yesterday for that game and Purdue never looked rattled until the final minute and even then, they made their free throws and got good shots.
I think they're a terrible matchup for Marquette and hope to avoid them until the Final 4, tbh.
We matched up pretty well with them in Honolulu but they made a lot of threes. Remember we can turn them over. That potential match-up doesn't scare me at all.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 11:17:44 AM
GoFast
I watched a good amount of basketball this weekend and UConn looked like the best of the bunch from what I saw. Watching UW-Purdue game and thought if MU is playing well, I would take MU in a best of seven series against both of them. Having two AA's is a special treat especially when you have the additional pieces MU has on the roster. I was very high on them in November, like many MU fans, and higher on them now. I am very much looking forward to the UConn game to see how they matchup.
Goose,
It's going to be very difficult to foist two losses upon UCONN, and I believe that's our only route to a repeat regular season title, as it would give us a tie-breaker, assuming no losses for either team in remaining games. I expected St John's to eek out a W over the Huskies this past weekend; didn't happen.
All this being said, this year I don't care about non-NCAA hardware. Shaka and staff have done a masterful job all year at keeping one eye on the postseason, while still getting the team supremely focused on each game.
Just as TKO has used the peripheral "noise" as motivation, don't think that Shaka hasn't heard the questions about his supposed post-season coaching shortcomings.
This should be fun. 🤩 🏀
Quote from: Uncle Rico link=topic=65551.msg1619593#msg1619593 date=1707153883
I think they're a terrible matchup for Marquette and hope to avoid them until the Final 4, tbh.
/quote]
Besides Edey being a problem for almost any team, I'm curious on the specifics as to your reasoning that they are a bad matchup. Not disagreeing-just asking.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 05, 2024, 11:46:38 AM
[quote author=Uncle Rico link=topic=65551.msg1619593#msg1619593 date=1707153883
I think they're a terrible matchup for Marquette and hope to avoid them until the Final 4, tbh.
Besides Edey being a problem for almost any team, I'm curious on the specifics as to your reasoning that they are a bad matchup. Not disagreeing-just asking.
Killing Marquette on the glass and getting to the FT line. You can't give Purdue extra possessions.
Muggsy is correct, you want to turn them over.
Purdue "has to" prove it this year. There will be a lot of pressure on them to make the second weekend at the minimum and probably a Final 4 at this point. I think that helps.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 10:53:21 AM
muggsy
Pretty easy formula for MU, keep playing lockdown D, pass the ball and make their shots. It is going to be a fun next couple of months.
Are you saying that even if we are scouted already but keep making open shots we'll be ok?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 05, 2024, 11:24:43 AM
I think Purdue is the real deal as well. Not many teams go into the Troll Center and shoot more FTs than UW-Madison.
They waxed them on the glass, too, a key advantage the Badgers have had all season. Doing that against them in Madison impressed me.
They're 5th in the nation in 3-point shooting and won yesterday only making 3. They got help from Wisconsin going 3-19 in the same category but that place was hype yesterday for that game and Purdue never looked rattled until the final minute and even then, they made their free throws and got good shots.
I think they're a terrible matchup for Marquette and hope to avoid them until the Final 4, tbh.
I respect Purdue - especially Edey, who takes a lot of shyte from other teams' jealous fans.
But if memory serves, we outscored them by something like 8-10 points when Oso was on the floor.
They're a tough matchup for us or anybody else ... but the opposite also is true - Marquette's a tough matchup. I believe it could come down to something as simple as whichever team shoots better from 3 winning the game.
Like you, I'd prefer we don't play them until the Final Four ... but then again, I'd say that about any possible opponent because it would mean we're in the Final Four!
Getting back to the title of this thread...we match up better against Purdue if we have Sean Jones. He the kind of quick, defensive nightmare that bothers Purdue's guards.
Quote from: PJDunn on February 05, 2024, 02:56:19 PM
Getting back to the title of this thread...we match up better against Purdue if we have Sean Jones. He the kind of quick, defensive nightmare that bothers Purdue's guards.
Well, we seem to play them every year, so he'll get the chance next season.
This is some Scoop whack. So Sean blowing out his ACL sooner against Butler would have prevented Tyler from going 1-13 from the field?
Probably a meat eater take, let's not disparage all of scoop.
No one seems to care how Sean is doing? How's his recovery going? Despite the negativity expressed here, we need Sean as a vital member of next season's team. He's a difference maker!
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 05, 2024, 04:21:36 PM
No one seems to care how Sean is doing? How's his recovery going? Despite the negativity expressed here, we need Sean as a vital member of next season's team. He's a difference maker!
There has not been a single negative post or one saying hes not going to be a vital member of the team next year.
Sean gave a postgame speech after the Georgetown game. Leaning on crutches. Only 3 ish weeks post surgery. I hope he is well, but there probably isn't much to tell.
Quote from: tower912 on February 05, 2024, 04:25:24 PM
Sean gave a postgame speech after the Georgetown game. Leaning on crutches. Only 3 ish weeks post surgery. I hope he is well, but there probably isn't much to tell.
Depending on what Tyler is going to do, Sean is a nice backup point, Norman does not look like Tyler's replacement so Shaka has to be thinking portal.
I like Sean a lot but I think that it's important to ask if he can regain his best asset which is his speed. He's not a knock down 3pt shooter, he's not some crazy athlete, had a few great dishes but not to the level we saw from Tyler his sophomore year. In order to be effective Sean needs that blow by speed again and if Shaka doesn't see that returning I hope he strongly considers the portal or really throwing Tre into the fire.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 05, 2024, 04:46:06 PM
I like Sean a lot but I think that it's important to ask if he can regain his best asset which is his speed. He's not a knock down 3pt shooter, he's not some crazy athlete, had a few great dishes but not to the level we saw from Tyler his sophomore year. In order to be effective Sean needs that blow by speed again and if Shaka doesn't see that returning I hope he strongly considers the portal or really throwing Tre into the fire.
Expecting Sean to be fully effective next year seems unlikely.
I hope MUDPT weighs in with some professional based comments. Meanwhile, here's something from Cleveland Clinic that includes info about recovery:
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/16576-acl-tear
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 05, 2024, 04:25:03 PM
There has not been a single negative post or one saying hes not going to be a vital member of the team next year.
Sean will not be a vital member of the team next season. Maybe the season after. He's gotta long recovery ahead
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 05, 2024, 09:19:33 PM
Sean will not be a vital member of the team next season. Maybe the season after. He's gotta long recovery ahead
Have heard similar.
Oof. That's too bad. I actually think he would be fine as a PG with shooters around him. So I guess its Tre... Kam if he sticks around... or a portal guy.
Feel really bad for the kid. Gave every ounce of energy he had whenever he took the court.
The only bright side for the team if there is one, is it might force Shaka to use the portal and he was exceptional using it the first time around. Of course he didn't have to drop a bag of money to get Darryl, Tyler, Omax and Kur.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 11:17:44 AM
GoFast
I watched a good amount of basketball this weekend and UConn looked like the best of the bunch from what I saw. Watching UW-Purdue game and thought if MU is playing well, I would take MU in a best of seven series against both of them. Having two AA's is a special treat especially when you have the additional pieces MU has on the roster. I was very high on them in November, like many MU fans, and higher on them now. I am very much looking forward to the UConn game to see how they matchup.
Shaka is 0-3 vs. Bucky, so I guess we are due for 7 straight. I would be thrilled with one win over Bucky.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 05, 2024, 04:38:57 PM
Depending on what Tyler is going to do, Sean is a nice backup point, Norman does not look like Tyler's replacement so Shaka has to be thinking portal.
Hes not.
Honest question for those who seem to believe that Sean's recovery will be too long for him to be a major factor next season- do you know that? I'm looking for specifics. I am well aware that the recovery is typically very long, but I posted a link to the Cleveland Clinic's site where ACL and recovery from ACL is addressed, including comments about athletes' recovery time. No one commented. Why?
It seems to me that many here are writing Sean off for next season. I wonder if we have some self-appointed doctors here.
Every knee is different. Ive been through ACL reconstruction twice. The recovery could not have been more different from the 2 knees. Best case scenario - he'll be ready. Worst case scenario - he won't. Nobody knows, not him, not his surgeon, not his PT, so an uneducated guess from someone on a message board is meaningless at this point. We probably wont hear anything til August or Sept.
Quote from: 94Warrior on February 06, 2024, 10:35:41 AM
Every knee is different. Ive been through ACL reconstruction twice. The recovery could not have been more different from the 2 knees. Best case scenario - he'll be ready. Worst case scenario - he won't. Nobody knows, not him, not his surgeon, not his PT, so an uneducated guess from someone on a message board is meaningless at this point. We probably wont hear anything til August or Sept.
Nobody "knows" sure. But I'm sure his doctor and his PT have a pretty darn good idea. And when its TAMU and Lens making these statements, they aren't mere uneducated guesses.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 06, 2024, 10:27:09 AM
Honest question for those who seem to believe that Sean's recovery will be too long for him to be a major factor next season- do you know that? I'm looking for specifics. I am well aware that the recovery is typically very long, but I posted a link to the Cleveland Clinic's site where ACL and recovery from ACL is addressed, including comments about athletes' recovery time. No one commented. Why?
It seems to me that many here are writing Sean off for next season. I wonder if we have some self-appointed doctors here.
You won't get those specifics on a public message board. But there are people that post on this public message board that have legitimate information, even if they can't provide sources and details. In this case, I would say this information is the best and most reliable you will get. But maybe I'm just another self-appointed doctor.
Quote from: 94Warrior on February 06, 2024, 10:35:41 AM
Every knee is different. Ive been through ACL reconstruction twice. The recovery could not have been more different from the 2 knees. Best case scenario - he'll be ready. Worst case scenario - he won't. Nobody knows, not him, not his surgeon, not his PT, so an uneducated guess from someone on a message board is meaningless at this point. We probably wont hear anything til August or Sept.
Thanks for posting this.
All I was looking for was some admission that there was a possibility that he might be able to play, and hopefully even at the beginning of the season. You provided a narrative that I was hoping to read.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2024, 10:49:39 AM
You won't get those specifics on a public message board. But there are people that post on this public message board that have legitimate information, even if they can't provide sources and details. In this case, I would say this information is the best and most reliable you will get. But maybe I'm just another self-appointed doctor.
Very fair.
You dont like my answer - I get it. I dont like not knowing either. But, there are hundreds of hurdles to get over between now and next season. Knees heal and respond differently.
For every Adrian Peterson success story, there is a Terrell Davis, Jordy Nelson or RGIII who were never the same.
Quote from: 94Warrior on February 06, 2024, 10:56:48 AM
You dont like my answer - I get it. I dont like not knowing either. But, there are hundreds of hurdles to get over between now and next season. Knees heal and respond differently.
For every Adrian Peterson success story, there is a Terrell Davis, Jordy Nelson or RGIII who were never the same.
Derrick rose as well. Probably a good comp stylistically for Sean as he relied on his speed a ton to be as effective as he was. Eventually he got his stuff together to be an adequate player again but that took years.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 06, 2024, 11:18:51 AM
Derrick rose as well. Probably a good comp stylistically for Sean as he relied on his speed a ton to be as effective as he was. Eventually he got his stuff together to be an adequate player again but that took years.
Yes - Rose is a perfect example. And, I'd be willing to bet the initial report following each of those surgeries was 'Surgery went well. We are encouraged by what we saw and anticipate _______ will experience a full and complete recovery. ______ has a long recovery ahead, but we are optimistic he will be back running, jumping, skipping and hopping before you know it.'
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
B. Convince Tyler to return!!!!
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2024, 12:14:19 PM
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
Not sure what he should do, but I believe that E. Is most likely approach from Shaka.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 06, 2024, 10:27:09 AM
Honest question for those who seem to believe that Sean's recovery will be too long for him to be a major factor next season- do you know that? I'm looking for specifics. I am well aware that the recovery is typically very long, but I posted a link to the Cleveland Clinic's site where ACL and recovery from ACL is addressed, including comments about athletes' recovery time. No one commented. Why?
It seems to me that many here are writing Sean off for next season. I wonder if we have some self-appointed doctors here.
I expect a long recovery, because of the type of player he is. He relies on speed and changing direction quickly. I do not think he recovers like a jump shooter would.
I expect Tyler to be gone, Jones may or may not ready by the start of the season, so then gets Tre. To me he has not shown enough yet so in saying that, go get a one year player with experience. MU will have a decent nucleus back next year, next year should not be a true rebuild, the following year maybe.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2024, 12:14:19 PM
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
What? No "All of the above"?
So, who is an NBA comp for Tyler?
Colin Gillespie went undrafted, but has a 2 way contract and has appeared in 15 games for the Nuggets.
Would this be enough for Tyler to test the waters? Or would he need a guarantee of being drafted?
Is a Gillespie comp underselling Tyler? Is he more of an Alex Caruso or Spencer Dinwidde?
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2024, 12:14:19 PM
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
I think I'd rather us ride with who we have. 2011 Buycks wasn't a pure PG and Cadougan wasn't getting a ton of time. Yet that season worked out well on the court... in march
MU will be in trouble without Kolek and a true PG next year. Think he's gotta hit the portal for someone experienced.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2024, 12:14:19 PM
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
Well, darn near 100% of Scoopers would choose B ... if it only were that simple. Time to increase our NIL donations!
Assuming that's not gonna happen, and if Shaka assesses next season's prospects and honestly believes we're a legit NCAAT team and Big East contender, I'd think he could pretty easily justify D without putting his culture at risk. Otherwise, E, especially if Kam and Stevie return (and why wouldn't they?).
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2024, 11:17:44 AM
GoFast
I watched a good amount of basketball this weekend and UConn looked like the best of the bunch from what I saw. Watching UW-Purdue game and thought if MU is playing well, I would take MU in a best of seven series against both of them. Having two AA's is a special treat especially when you have the additional pieces MU has on the roster. I was very high on them in November, like many MU fans, and higher on them now. I am very much looking forward to the UConn game to see how they matchup.
I think I'd take MU to win it all if the playoffs were NBA style. We're not the tallest or most athletic team, but I do think the guys are really good at understanding the sport and figuring out their opponents. Sometimes that comes too late in a 40 minute game. But I'd have a lot of confidence if it were a series.
Quote from: 94Warrior on February 06, 2024, 01:21:58 PM
So, who is an NBA comp for Tyler?
Colin Gillespie went undrafted, but has a 2 way contract and has appeared in 15 games for the Nuggets.
Would this be enough for Tyler to test the waters? Or would he need a guarantee of being drafted?
Is a Gillespie comp underselling Tyler? Is he more of an Alex Caruso or Spencer Dinwidde?
A poor man's Jalen Brunson.
"rebuilds" are part of the COLE platform.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 06, 2024, 12:47:55 PM
I expect Tyler to be gone, Jones may or may not ready by the start of the season, so then gets Tre. To me he has not shown enough yet so in saying that, go get a one year player with experience. MU will have a decent nucleus back next year, next year should not be a true rebuild, the following year maybe.
Why don't scoopers believe Shaka when he says he isn't going to use the portal as a way to build his team? He didn't say he wouldn't ever use it, but it's not the way he's doing things moving forward. He needed yo field a competitive team his first year and went out and got some players....prior to NIL.
Shaka and staff will work Tre 8 hours a day from April til November to make him the beat PG he can be (if they believe he is the guy) before he goes our and pays for a transfer.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 05, 2024, 05:03:39 PM
I hope MUDPT weighs in with some professional based comments. Meanwhile, here's something from Cleveland Clinic that includes info about recovery:
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/16576-acl-tear
Best case scenario is someone like Zakai Ziegler from Tennessee who tore his in Feb, really struggled in Maui, but has been better recently. I wouldn't expect him to be the old Sean Jones until at least conference season. That being said, from what other have said regarding his injury, it probably is more that just a "simple ACL." I did notice that he was not putting weight on his leg on crutches at the Seton Hall game, which indicates more damage.
(This is all speculation, really just educated guessing)
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 02:19:45 PM
Why don't scoopers believe Shaka when he says he isn't going to use the portal as a way to build his team? He didn't say he wouldn't ever use it, but it's not the way he's doing things moving forward. He needed yo field a competitive team his first year and went out and got some players....prior to NIL.
Shaka and staff will work Tre 8 hours a day from April til November to make him the beat PG he can be (if they believe he is the guy) before he goes our and pays for a transfer.
But that's not what he said. Shaka has stated clearly that he would use the portal to fill needs, but the player needs to buy into the program. I believe he said as much the last time he was on with Jen Lada.
As recently as 2022, they reached out and kicked the tires on Noah Carter, who eventually went to Missouri. He also brought in Wrightsil, who got hurt and obviously was never a factor.
If Shaka has doubts about the PG position, I most definitely think that is where he is going to look.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2024, 12:14:19 PM
So, should Shaka...
A. Assume he will recover and be effective next season and do nothing.
B. Convince Tyler to return.
C. Recruit a HS PG with the last scholarship.
D. Hit the portal
E. Go with PG by committee. Assuming the other 5 guards all return.
Don't believe Sean will return, but maybe before BE play if lucky. Aggressive as in past? He is always going to worry about blowing it out again.
Tyler getting up in age, not in Caitlin Clark NIL (close to million and may return as opposed to very low WNBA $$$) Don't see him returning.
I think Tyler has 50/50 chance to make an NBA roster for short timeframe and would definitely be a G League player. Just a hunch, but down the road I think he is coaching. Just a basketball junkie.
No highly recruited 2024 PGs left and Shaka going hard after 2025 Pgs James and Lewis
I believe Shaka changes philosophy and goes portal. Tre Norman appears bit overwhelmed and has not been impressive. He is 2 for 15 from three and has not made a three in 18 games, last in Maui. In Shaka system, three ball from guard play is crucial. Is it me or does he fall down a lot like Omax? Maybe he improves in next nine months, who knows. Hope so, he does have the size. I am just hoping Kam stays, he goes and it could get ugly.
No committee, as above, its portal time.
Quote from: nyg on February 06, 2024, 02:31:24 PM
Tre Norman appears bit overwhelmed and has not been impressive.
1. This is true but Tre has been better than the player this thread is about.
2. Stevie and Kam will run the point next year ahead of anyone that gets mentioned in this thread.
I think Shaka rolls with the other 5 guards. Chase brought the ball up a couple of times against Georgetown. Stevie is getting into the lane almost at will and is starting to share the ball while he is there. Kam has run the point. Tre and Zaide will only get better.
I would be stunned if Shaka found a PG in the portal he likes more than what he has and the obligatory bag drop occurred.
I can see adding one more guard for depth, whether it be a transfer or late HS add.
But Im totally comfortable if we start Kam, Stevie and Chase, our three best guards, and rotate the ballhandling duties between them. Start your 3 best and theyre good enough to figure it out, it just will look different than this year wich is fine. Tre Norman can play a bigger role off the bench both on and off ball too.
I have been 100% wrong on how Shaka has used the portal to date and definitely understand how he is building this program. That said, on his radio program last week he mentioned the portal three different times and sounded a tad more open to it. He mentioned building with his own his guys is top option, but he was not against the portal on a case-to-case basis. Now, I have heard him say similar things, but it almost sounded like he was floating the idea out there.
As I mentioned, 0 for 2 years on predicting Shaka's use of the portal and not making predictions. Just thought his choice of wording sounded far more open to the portal going into this offseason. I had thought Shaka would get guys with 2-3 years left vs. 1 and that never happened after his first year. It will be an interesting offseason, imo.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 06, 2024, 02:39:27 PM
1. This is true but Tre has been better than the player this thread is about.
What?
Quote from: Goose on February 06, 2024, 02:50:37 PM
I have been 100% wrong on how Shaka has used the portal to date and definitely understand how he is building this program. That said, on his radio program last week he mentioned the portal three different times and sounded a tad more open to it. He mentioned building with his own his guys is top option, but he was not against the portal on a case-to-case basis. Now, I have heard him say similar things, but it almost sounded like he was floating the idea out there.
As I mentioned, 0 for 2 years on predicting Shaka's use of the portal and not making predictions. Just thought his choice of wording sounded far more open to the portal going into this offseason. I had thought Shaka would get guys with 2-3 years left vs. 1 and that never happened after his first year. It will be an interesting offseason, imo.
Agree Goose. He is letting it be known that it is a strong consideration. And it should be with Sean's injury. Gentle reminder to fans, players, players families, boosters, etc. what he is thinking.
I hear Chucky Hepburn is looking around
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 06, 2024, 02:27:40 PM
But that's not what he said. Shaka has stated clearly that he would use the portal to fill needs, but the player needs to buy into the program. I believe he said as much the last time he was on with Jen Lada.
As recently as 2022, they reached out and kicked the tires on Noah Carter, who eventually went to Missouri. He also brought in Wrightsil, who got hurt and obviously was never a factor.
If Shaka has doubts about the PG position, I most definitely think that is where he is going to look.
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
Man I didn't realize wrightsil was only getting 9min per game before the injury.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
I think your take is going to be right 9 out of 10 times and definitely not emphatically disagreeing with you or Sultan. But I just think this year might be an exception because of the injury.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
Zach's injury was discovered in the summer and he tried to play through it for a couple of games. His lift was gone and rest didn't help. If healthy, he would have earned more minutes.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
Right. I don't think he is "building" a team through the portal by filling a hole due to injury. When OMax left, he had the BE sixth man of the year behind him. Assuming Tyler leaves, who is there to fill a role? Either a guy averaging 8 minutes a game or two guys who don't usually play the position.
And you may ultimately be right, but it looks like if there were ever a time to look at portal transfers, this off-season may be it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 06, 2024, 03:24:23 PM
And you may ultimately be right, but it looks like if there were ever a time to look at portal transfers, this off-season may be it.
Yep. Unless he plans on throwing Tre into the deep end.
Going point guard by committee usually doesn't end up going well. If Sean never tore his ACL and we knew he'd be the point guard going into next season, I think Shaka would be fine going 25 minutes from Sean and 15 minutes point guard by committee. 40 minutes of point guard by committee would be a disaster.
I think Shaka's smart enough to know when he needs to hit the portal and when he's got guys ready to step up from within. Even if he believes in Tre's ability, there isn't proof of concept out there like there was with Jop stepping into the OMax roll, and my guess is the plan was Sean is the starting point guard and Tre back him up. I'd guess if Tyler leaves (which I expect), Shaka will hit the portal for a transfer.
That's not building a team through the portal. It's filling a need.
Earlier in the year (perhaps on MU basketball hour) Tyler said he was unsure if he would come back or if he was willing to put his time in and do the grind in the G-League.
I don't know he has commented further on that. I do know this a weak draft year, he has said he is all in this year, so he very well could leave. However, I believe he is making substantial NIL $.
Has TK commented or hinted on leaving or just assumptions?
Quote from: wadesworld on February 06, 2024, 03:37:41 PM
Going point guard by committee usually doesn't end up going well. If Sean never tore his ACL and we knew he'd be the point guard going into next season, I think Shaka would be fine going 25 minutes from Sean and 15 minutes point guard by committee. 40 minutes of point guard by committee would be a disaster.
I think Shaka's smart enough to know when he needs to hit the portal and when he's got guys ready to step up from within. Even if he believes in Tre's ability, there isn't proof of concept out there like there was with Jop stepping into the OMax roll, and my guess is the plan was Sean is the starting point guard and Tre back him up. I'd guess if Tyler leaves (which I expect), Shaka will hit the portal for a transfer.
That's not building a team through the portal. It's filling a need.
Yes, makes perfect sense. We will see.
Regarding Jop......scoopers still pushed for an outside replacement for OMax, when we knew Shaka would utilize Jop albeit differently than he used OMax.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams.
As a few others have said, bringing in one player for one position whom you've vetted and whom you believe fits your culture is not the same as "building a team through the portal."
That said, I have no idea if Shaka would do it, or even if he should do it. He might believe Norman can make the kind of major improvement that Oso and O-Max did in 2021-22. I think some forget that O-Max had barely played as a freshman at Clemson in 2020-21, and we know that Oso played, like 8 seconds as an MU frosh. But Shaka felt they could be players.
And if he ultimately feels that way about Tre, who will be surrounded by Kam, Stevie, Chase and others, then I trust his judgment until Shaka's judgment proves untrustworthy. It sure hasn't yet.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 06, 2024, 02:39:27 PM
Tre has been better than the player this thread is about.
Very curious to hear what this is supposed to mean.
If Kolek leaves, we could use another guard even if Tre is the real deal, so I think Shaka hits the portal. Likely a combo guard that plays any guard spot that is a current freshman or sophomore. Won't be a splash. More of a culture (ie role player) guy with multiple years I am thinking. I don't think we'll see any more of the Morsell and Kur types that only have one year left.
CountryRoads
I agree that if Shaka hits the portal, it will be a guy with multiple years ahead of him. In addition, I would think it was a guy he recruited and has known the kid and the family for quite some time. IMO, re-recruited guys in the program and guys he missed out on it are part of the process.
Quote from: Goose on February 06, 2024, 04:55:19 PM
CountryRoads
I agree that if Shaka hits the portal, it will be a guy with multiple years ahead of him. In addition, I would think it was a guy he recruited and has known the kid and the family for quite some time. IMO, re-recruited guys in the program and guys he missed out on it are part of the process.
Emarion Ellis is available.
(But I actually think it would be a grad transfer.)
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2024, 03:15:02 PM
We must be listening to different Marquette basketball hours. Shaka has stated clearly and often, that he will not build a team through the portal at Marquette and utilize the portal like most teams. He has never said never. I don't believe Shaka will go out and try to find an immediate impact PG this summer. Many on here assumed that OMax's departure would be filled with the best wing out there. Some knew it was gonna be Jop. It was gonna be Jop and Ben. It was gonna be Jop, Ben and Chase.
Wrighsil was a no risk pick up, who wasn't playing even prior to his injury.
Never said Shaka won't kick the tires.....but I believe next year's PG is on this year's team.
Picking up a single player to fill a gap is not the same thing as building a team through the portal.
Wrightsil was injured before the season started and played injured in the few games he appeared in. Staff were expecting him to have a major role when he was brought in.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2024, 03:55:43 PM
Very curious to hear what this is supposed to mean.
There are stats out there that suggest that Tre has been better in his limited minutes than Sean was in his extended minutes. Personally, I think the sample sizes are too different to be meaningful and Sean was on a solid run right before his injury. I do think that Tres ceiling is much higher, we'll see if Shaka can unlock it.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 06, 2024, 09:03:58 PM
There are stats out there that suggest that Tre has been better in his limited minutes than Sean was in his extended minutes. Personally, I think the sample sizes are too different to be meaningful and Sean was on a solid run right before his injury. I do think that Tres ceiling is much higher, we'll see if Shaka can unlock it.
Is that because Tre is taller and heavier? Or is there something you see this year that tells you his ceiling is higher. I do agree taller, bigger players are usually better at basketball.
Shaka will do whatever he needs to do to improve the team and chances for advancement. The portal can certainly play a role. But only Shaka knows what Shaka wants and intends to do. We have no po)t guar$ I. The roster who can even step close to Kolek's shoes, let alone fill them. We will see, cause Shaka loves a great point
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on February 06, 2024, 09:07:48 PM
Is that because Tre is taller and heavier? Or is there something you see this year that tells you his ceiling is higher. I do agree taller, bigger players are usually better at basketball.
Shaka loves Nyk Lewis and he's 6'1.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 06, 2024, 09:03:58 PM
There are stats out there that suggest that Tre has been better in his limited minutes than Sean was in his extended minutes.
None of us will ever forget when Tre hit that big shot at Illinois, the winner over UCLA in Hawaii, and the huge 3s against
Clemson Creighton.
(D'oh!)Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 06, 2024, 09:03:58 PM
I do think that Tres ceiling is much higher, we'll see if Shaka can unlock it.
This might be true. We'll see.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2024, 09:37:02 PM
None of us will ever forget when Tre hit that big shot at Illinois, the winner over UCLA in Hawaii, and the huge 3s against Clemson.
This might be true. We'll see.
This would've worked if we played Clemson while Tre (or Sean) was on the team (or alive? Can't recall ever playing them off the top of my head).
Quote from: wadesworld on February 06, 2024, 09:40:36 PM
This would've worked if we played Clemson while Tre (or Sean) was on the team (or alive? Can't recall ever playing them off the top of my head).
Dang it ... had Clemson's win over UNC on my mind!
Quote from: lawdog77 on February 06, 2024, 03:10:31 PM
I hear Chucky Hepburn is looking around
Chucky would need to get his grades up to get into Marquette. :)
Also, wasn't he rumored to be going to Creighton last year?
Anyway, I wouldn't let that guy within 100 yards of my team. He's a chucker.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 07, 2024, 11:29:19 AM
Chucky would need to get his grades up to get into Marquette. :)
Also, wasn't he rumored to be going to Creighton last year?
Anyway, I wouldn't let that guy within 100 yards of my team. He's a chucker.
my extremely knowledgeable inside source on all things Vadger (bro-in-law 😶 ) said Chucky is academically overqualified for Marquette but is a rumored transfer candidate as is Connor Essegian.
Viper.out
Quote from: Viper on February 07, 2024, 01:13:01 PM
my extremely knowledgeable inside source on all things Vadger (bro-in-law 😶 ) said Chucky is academically overqualified for Marquette but is a rumored transfer candidate as is Connor Essegian.
Viper.out
Both were last year as well, I wonder if Connor regets his return to Madison.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 07, 2024, 01:17:02 PM
Both were last year as well, I wonder if Connor regets his return to Madison.
I can't see Connor returning unless Storr goes pro.
Quote from: Viper on February 07, 2024, 07:46:20 PM
I can't see Connor returning unless Storr goes pro.
Especially with the two future studs they plucked from MN coming in next year.
Quote from: Viper on February 07, 2024, 07:46:20 PM
I can't see Connor returning unless Storr goes pro.
Oh hes gone....I have no doubts.
Quote from: Viper on February 07, 2024, 01:13:01 PM
my extremely knowledgeable inside source on all things Vadger (bro-in-law 😶 ) said Chucky is academically overqualified for Marquette but is a rumored transfer candidate as is Connor Essegian.
Viper.out
Lol.
https://x.com/Aries_Sherrie/status/1856778536083755234
Nice
Quote from: Daniel on February 06, 2024, 09:08:32 PMShaka will do whatever he needs to do to improve the team and chances for advancement. The portal can certainly play a role. But only Shaka knows what Shaka wants and intends to do. We have no point guard on the roster who can even step close to Kolek's shoes, let alone fill them. We will see, because Shaka loves a great point
On the first part of Brother Daniel's post, could not agree more. The goal of a Marquette Coach should be to assemble the best roster (s)he can, see if the parts fit together and work so that the players meet their full potential.
The clear objective is winning the Big East and a National Championship.
If the best answer to lift the team toward the twin clear objectives is in the portal, I don't doubt for a minute Coach Shaka will enter the portal. I admire the fact Coach Shaka wants to build from inside and that he recruits for the long-term, but there will come a point where a recruit doesn't meet expectations and the portal will be necessary.
I hope it's few and far between but the time inevitably will come.
Shaka wants to win - and, like all coaches at this level, he needs to win. He's not gonna fall to Georgetown level (or even current Nova level) just so he can say "no transfers - never ever ever."
So far, it's hard to argue that his system hasn't worked at Marquette. He's given us every reason to trust him.
I know I'm in the minority but based on Shaka's comments a week or two ago and them releasing that - or allowing that to be released - I really believe Sean is going to be back early in the new year if not before.
Quote from: Milkshakes on November 14, 2024, 02:13:02 PMI know I'm in the minority but based on Shaka's comments a week or two ago and them releasing that - or allowing that to be released - I really believe Sean is going to be back early in the new year if not before.
Can't wait to watch him play again.
Quote from: Milkshakes on November 14, 2024, 02:13:02 PMI know I'm in the minority but based on Shaka's comments a week or two ago and them releasing that - or allowing that to be released - I really believe Sean is going to be back early in the new year if not before.
But does Sean want to come back this year? He already lost half of his sophomore season, now he would be losing half of his junior season. From his perspective, would it be better to redshirt this season and have two full years of eligibility remaining?
Quote from: ChuckyChip on November 14, 2024, 03:09:06 PMBut does Sean want to come back this year? He already lost half of his sophomore season, now he would be losing half of his junior season. From his perspective, would it be better to redshirt this season and have two full years of eligibility remaining?
It depends of course on when he is cleared. If its in mid-December versus the end of January...
Can't he technically play in 33% of the regular season games this year plus all postseason and still redshirt? So roughly last 10 games of regular season and then BET and NCAAT. If that's the case...hold him out and then bring him in for added depth late in the year.
Quote from: Spencer Pratt on November 14, 2024, 09:07:41 PMCan't he technically play in 33% of the games this year and still redshirt? So roughly 9 games. If that's the case...hold him out and then bring him in for added depth late in the year.
No.
Quote from: Spencer Pratt on November 14, 2024, 09:07:41 PMCan't he technically play in 33% of the regular season games this year plus all postseason and still redshirt? So roughly last 10 games of regular season and then BET and NCAAT. If that's the case...hold him out and then bring him in for added depth late in the year.
It doesn't work like that, it can't be the games at the end. If you come back from injury late, then it counts as a full season. Jay Bee could probably clarify the specifics better, though I expect he'd rather call out people for being wrong without providing said clarity.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 14, 2024, 09:18:16 PMIt doesn't work like that, it can't be the games at the end. If you come back from injury late, then it counts as a full season. Jay Bee could probably clarify the specifics better, though I expect he'd rather call out people for being wrong without providing said clarity.
I understand all that you wrote about redshirting-nothing new here. But...Your thoughts about Sean being willing to sit out another season-this time a
full season-if he can play in January? He has
got to be chomping at the bit! (with his speed, ...pun intended). Care to speculate? If not, I understand.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 14, 2024, 09:18:16 PMIt doesn't work like that, it can't be the games at the end. If you come back from injury late, then it counts as a full season. Jay Bee could probably clarify the specifics better, though I expect he'd rather call out people for being wrong without providing said clarity.
Fake news! Lies!
He'd rather correct grammar
Quote from: Spencer Pratt on November 14, 2024, 09:07:41 PMCan't he technically play in 33% of the regular season games this year plus all postseason and still redshirt? So roughly last 10 games of regular season and then BET and NCAAT. If that's the case...hold him out and then bring him in for added depth late in the year.
The injury must have occurred in the first half of the season and the athlete must have competed in less than 30% of the season is my understanding.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 14, 2024, 09:28:11 PMI understand all that you wrote about redshirting-nothing new here. But...Your thoughts about Sean being willing to sit out another season-this time a full season-if he can play in January? He has got to be chomping at the bit! (with his speed, ...pun intended). Care to speculate? If not, I understand.
The Cadougan conundrum. At what point of the season is it worth it come back and lose another year of eligibility? When is he game ready? How many minutes can he realistically play?
It would be great if he is ready to go soon.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 14, 2024, 09:28:11 PMI understand all that you wrote about redshirting-nothing new here. But...Your thoughts about Sean being willing to sit out another season-this time a full season-if he can play in January? He has got to be chomping at the bit! (with his speed, ...pun intended). Care to speculate? If not, I understand.
When people asked me 2 months ago, I felt very confident Sean was going to sit the season. Just from what I was hearing it sounded like the best long-term decision. Now, with Shaka talking about how he's close, I don't see them putting that out there publicly if there's not a real chance of him playing.
Purely speculating, I do think we'll see him this season. Not sure when, but January/February feels about right.
I do think it's different than Cadougan, because we've seen Sean at 100% and know he can compete at this level. He might need some games to acclimate, but he would be coming back to a team where there's a clear positional need (Cadougan had Acker, Cooby, Buycks, DJO all ahead of him) and he's not an unknown freshman learning how to play against high-major competition for the first time.
Thanks for your reply, Brew. I just cannot see him sitting out this season, even at the cost of using a year of eligibility.
Do
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2024, 07:40:18 AMWhen people asked me 2 months ago, I felt very confident Sean was going to sit the season. Just from what I was hearing it sounded like the best long-term decision. Now, with Shaka talking about how he's close, I don't see them putting that out there publicly if there's not a real chance of him playing.
Purely speculating, I do think we'll see him this season. Not sure when, but January/February feels about right.
I do think it's different than Cadougan, because we've seen Sean at 100% and know he can compete at this level. He might need some games to acclimate, but he would be coming back to a team where there's a clear positional need (Cadougan had Acker, Cooby, Buycks, DJO all ahead of him) and he's not an unknown freshman learning how to play against high-major competition for the first time.
I love me some SJ22. He was quickly becoming one of my favorite non stars last season, at the time when we were discussing if the team is much better off with more minutes to TyKo and less to him because of the metrics data.
How hard Shaka took his injury tells you everything you need to know about coach.
Kid was just starting to blossom.
Do we think he comes back as his old self, or as a more reserved lightning in a bottle pass first pg that's a massive disruptive force on the defensive end and helps break down defenses when the half court offense gets stagnant against elite defensive teams?
Longest run on sentence in history, but as you can tell I think he comes back as a slightly transformed version of hisself.
Hope he's working on that outside shot
Quote from: DoctorV on November 15, 2024, 09:10:10 AMDo we think he comes back as his old self, or as a more reserved lightning in a bottle pass first pg that's a massive disruptive force on the defensive end and helps break down defenses when the half court offense gets stagnant against elite defensive teams?
I couldn't even begin to guess. My thought is you start him off at 5-10 mpg, see what he can handle, and increase his minutes as he earns them.
Quote from: Spencer Pratt on November 14, 2024, 09:07:41 PMCan't he technically play in 33% of the regular season games this year plus all postseason and still redshirt? So roughly last 10 games of regular season and then BET and NCAAT. If that's the case...hold him out and then bring him in for added depth late in the year.
No. If he plays a single second in any of the "roughly last 10 games", a year of competition eligibility is used.
There is a right to appeal but it is doubtful that it would be successful.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 15, 2024, 09:10:10 AMDo
I love me some SJ22. He was quickly becoming one of my favorite non stars last season, at the time when we were discussing if the team is much better off with more minutes to TyKo and less to him because of the metrics data.
How hard Shaka took his injury tells you everything you need to know about coach.
Kid was just starting to blossom.
Do we think he comes back as his old self, or as a more reserved lightning in a bottle pass first pg that's a massive disruptive force on the defensive end and helps break down defenses when the half court offense gets stagnant against elite defensive teams?
Longest run on sentence in history, but as you can tell I think he comes back as a slightly transformed version of hisself.
Hope he's working on that outside shot
As long as he comes back a John "Magic" Dawson type player we'll be fine.
If it were not for Tre's lack of development, I might have ignored this thread.
Quote from: PJDunn on November 15, 2024, 10:20:12 AMIf it were not for Tre's lack of development, I might have ignored this thread.
He's been injured most of the fall
He is coming back for sure.
Quote from: THEbig0 on November 15, 2024, 02:11:08 PMHe is coming back for sure.
Yes at some point I expect him to comeback, when? Who knows.
This year, I'd guess before conference season starts. But I'd say Jan 2025 to be safe.