MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Herman Cain on February 20, 2023, 07:52:23 PM
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MU Wire makes the case against Markus Howard Jersey Retirement . Should MU retire Markus Jersey ?
https://marquettewire.org/4093582/sports/gunville-the-case-to-why-markus-howards-jersey-should-not-be-retired/
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Man that article is full of inconsistencies. Poor effort.
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This is going to be 🔥🔥🔥🔥
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Not sure what the criteria for the athletic department is in determining retired jerseys, but I believe Markus (if he does ever receive the honor) would be only one that didn't win an NCAAT game.
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Right after Chones.
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Since it’s about points then Jerel McNeal first
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I would retire the jerseys of Chones and Markus.
I’d also consider Jerel and Jae.
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Chones first.
Debate the rest later.
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I would retire the jerseys of Chones and Markus.
I’d also consider Jerel and Jae.
agreed
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This might become Herman's magnum opus
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Making an unsolicited case against a hypothetical honoring of a former MU player is pretty funny to me.
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Markus in a heartbeat. I get the Chones situation. I lived thru it. Al panicked and should have waited a few weeks for the NCAAs as the ABA merger stuff was truly not that imminent. Jim’s money would have been even greater. But, it was what it was. But, I think they should honor him now. Fair is fair. MU had one heckuva run during his time on the Wisconsin Ave. area.
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If Markus ain’t retired, you don’t know ball
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I don't know ball.
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Poorly researched.
1. States individual accolades shouldn’t be the measure yet then states individual accolades of two people without NCAA wins. Neither is in first place in those categories. Let alone by nearly 800 points
2. Calls out that Doc’s Jersey was retired because of his NBA success, except his Jersey was retired in 2004 which happened before his NBA Championship as a coach in 2008
3. Prior to that, Doc was a good player in the NBA but probably hasn’t had as good a career as many Marquette players whose jersey isn’t retired. I would say folks like Butler/Wes have had just as good of a playing career in the NBA. Doc’s NBA achievements as a player is one all-star appearance. At the time of his Jersey retirement as a coach it was one coach of the year. Should we start the Butler/Wes jerseys should or should not be retired thread before they officially retire?
4. Markus is the only MU player to be a consensus all-American twice.
5. Of the players to receive AA status only three haven’t had their jersey retired Chones, Markus and Worthen. Chones has an NBA title. So based on NBA success shouldnt his be retired too?
6. Calls out Doc for being number 10 in assists. Doc has 409 assists to Markus 392. Is 400 the magic number? does the 17 assists overshadow the 1500 point difference? 3yrs vs 4yrs shouldn't matter as it is career impact.
All this to say I think the criteria for not retiring Markus’ Jersey is arbitrary and poorly thought out.
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Should’ve been raised to the banners on his Senior Day.
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Should’ve been raised to the banners on his Senior Day.
Agreed!
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If yall wanna remember the dumpster fire that this program was for 7 years, raise the banner.
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Right after Chones.
Chones was a great player…
for a little over a year and a half.
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All-time leading scorer. Great representative of the university. He should absolutely have his number retired.
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All-time leading scorer. Great representative of the university. He should absolutely have his number retired.
So why not jerel?
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So why not jerel?
Because he’s not the all time leading scorer of the best college basketball conference ever formed.
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If yall wanna remember the dumpster fire that this program was for 7 years, raise the banner.
Markus was outstanding on and off the court. He did what he was asked to do by his coach. He also did it incredibly well. He was not in charge of the game plan.
His number should absolutely be retired, NCAA win or not. This is a silly debate. Programs go through good and bad cycles. Markus was part of a down cycle of NCAA success but watching him play was amazing. If he had a coach that actually knew what he was doing this wouldn’t even be brought up because it’s such a no brainer. We also wouldn’t have Shaka as our coach either.
Reminds me of the SNL end of year skit when they blew up the studio and got rid of the entire cast except John Lovitz who was put in a limo before the explosion. Markus deserves to be in that limo for Marquette basketball and the rest of the cast and crew can be figuratively blown up if it makes people mentally feel better.
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Because he’s not the all time leading scorer of the best college basketball conference ever formed.
Right. And the arguments for Jerel are silly. I loved Jerel, but the scoring difference between Markus and Jerel at 1 and 2 is ~870 points. That’s the difference between Jerel and Robb Logterman (38th).
Wojo sucked. Markus was excellent. Retire the jersey.
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They should, but I don't hate the idea of waiting a bit to do it.
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I wouldn't retire either Markus or Chones. Chones body of work was too small, and Markus didn't win important games.
What I would do - in anticipation of the same issue arising for Wes, JFB and hopefully many more from the Shaka era is developing a MUBB lifetime achievement award which honors the names but does not retire the Jerseys. The first 3 would be Chones, Markus, Butler. Jae & Wes probably follow although "solid NBA career" might be too low of a standard for the long term. I'd look for at least one all star appearance, at least one championship, at least one "player of the year" (including DPOY) as criteria... as well as college criteria including the scoring record, assists record (TK - there's your path), rebounds record, etc.
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All-time leading scorer. Great representative of the university. He should absolutely have his number retired.
Absolutely correct. There is no reason not to. He was a great player and four year student athlete.
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Rivers having his number retired was a 100% Crean thing. Not sure if it was for recruiting his kids or what.
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🤦🏻♂️
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If a university wants to honor a player for his achievements in college, fine. Leave the NBA out of it.
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I wouldn't retire either Markus or Chones. Chones body of work was too small, and Markus didn't win important games.
What I would do - in anticipation of the same issue arising for Wes, JFB and hopefully many more from the Shaka era is developing a MUBB lifetime achievement award which honors the names but does not retire the Jerseys. The first 3 would be Chones, Markus, Butler. Jae & Wes probably follow although "solid NBA career" might be too low of a standard for the long term. I'd look for at least one all star appearance, at least one championship, at least one "player of the year" (including DPOY) as criteria... as well as college criteria including the scoring record, assists record (TK - there's your path), rebounds record, etc.
If Marquette doesn’t retire Jimmy Butler’s number they are out of their unnatural carnal knowledgeing minds.
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Terrible article, even worse timing. What possibly possesses one to get up in the middle of this awesome season and say "I'm going to do a Markus Howard takedown piece today"?
However this article isn't about retiring Howard's jersey, it's about retiring his number. There's a completely different discussion to be had about whether numbers should be retired at all. If they are, Howard probably has a top-5 claim to his number being retired, along with Lee, Wade, and Thompson. But the more you open that debate, the more we'll hear how Ellis, Lucas, Meminger, Chones/Wardle/McNeal, McIlvaine/Diener, and plenty of others I'm sure I haven't listed here.
Retire as many jerseys as you want, don't retire any numbers. That's probably the best answer. If you do retire any numbers, it should be Lee (NPOY) and that's it.
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Before retiring any more athletes' numbers, isn't there another NASA mission number Marquette can retire?
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If Marquette doesn’t retire Jimmy Butler’s number they are out of their unnatural carnal knowledgeing minds.
Jimmy Butler won’t be retired, probably ever. He would have to mend some fences and then lots of time would have to pass.
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I still think we should switch to a Ring of Honor and then reserve retiring jerseys for extra special accomplishments like NPOY or Basketball HOF (I believe Naismith isn’t just for NBA).
Although, the cat might be out of the bag. At some point we are going to get tight on numbers.
Or the NCAA can just allow 6-10 digits.
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If yall wanna remember the dumpster fire that this program was for 7 years, raise the banner.
It seems pretty clear that all the people determined to remember what a dumpster fire this program was for seven years are going to remember that...no reminders needed. And they're pretty determined to keep reminding the rest of us, too.
But there's nothing wrong with honoring and remembering what a great representative of MU Markus was -- even though he was unfortunate enough to have been representing MU during a dumpster fire of an era. Wojo's ineptitude is no reason to not honor Markus. Raise that jersey to the rafters.
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The Markus Howard era brought a lot of great moments. I would happily remember them everytime I see his number in the rafters.
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If you aren't going to honor MU's all time leading scorer, the Big East's all time leading scorer, a two time All-American who also represented the school honorably in multiple other ways, who are you going to honor?
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If you aren't going to honor MU's all time leading scorer, the Big East's all time leading scorer, a two time All-American who also represented the school honorably in multiple other ways, who are you going to honor?
Whoever screams the loudest about how much they hated Wojo? That's seems to be what the people against honoring Markus are angling for.
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And that he went 0/2 in the NCAA tournament. Which is a strange metric for an individual honor. (Not to mention that he would have been in three had COVID not cancelled it.)
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If you aren't going to honor MU's all time leading scorer, the Big East's all time leading scorer, a two time All-American who also represented the school honorably in multiple other ways, who are you going to honor?
The guy who paid Wojo's buyout.
Then Chones - Then Markus.
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The guy who paid Wojo's buyout.
Then Chones - Then Markus.
One of these is already in the rafters.
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Terrible article, even worse timing. What possibly possesses one to get up in the middle of this awesome season and say "I'm going to do a Markus Howard takedown piece today"?
However this article isn't about retiring Howard's jersey, it's about retiring his number. There's a completely different discussion to be had about whether numbers should be retired at all. If they are, Howard probably has a top-5 claim to his number being retired, along with Lee, Wade, and Thompson. But the more you open that debate, the more we'll hear how Ellis, Lucas, Meminger, Chones/Wardle/McNeal, McIlvaine/Diener, and plenty of others I'm sure I haven't listed here.
Retire as many jerseys as you want, don't retire any numbers. That's probably the best answer. If you do retire any numbers, it should be Lee (NPOY) and that's it.
Everything in the article says jersey, not number.
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One of these is already in the rafters.
The Apollo crew?
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Does the Spanish league season overlap 100% with the college season? Do they have an All Star break or anything like that? It could be difficult, timing wise, to coordinate a game when Markus can be in the building.
Will Wojo be there in disguise?
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It might be me, but "retiring" a jersey is just silly. Does that mean if someone with the last name of Howard decides to play at MU, he can't have Markus' number but anyone else can?
I'm in the retire his number camp.
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Terrible article, even worse timing. What possibly possesses one to get up in the middle of this awesome season and say "I'm going to do a Markus Howard takedown piece today"?
Clicks? Seems to be getting some people riled up so I’d say it was a success. Retiring Howard’s number is a discussion for another day. I don’t feel strongly about it one way or the other.
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Jimmy Butler won’t be retired, probably ever. He would have to mend some fences and then lots of time would have to pass.
Ball,
What did Jimmy do to burn bridges? As a fan of Jimmy maybe I just blocked it out of my head but I really don’t know what you are talking about. Thanks in advance for the reply.
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Ball,
What did Jimmy do to burn bridges? As a fan of Jimmy maybe I just blocked it out of my head but I really don’t know what you are talking about. Thanks in advance for the reply.
My understanding is it's a bit of a mystery and relatively recent.
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If a university wants to honor a player for his achievements in college, fine. Leave the NBA out of it.
Completely agree. Who cares what they do in the NBA? This is a Marquette honor.
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If yall wanna remember the dumpster fire that this program was for 7 years, raise the banner.
…for four of those years, at least Markus was always a show worth watching, could drop 50 any night, and kept MU in the headlines. I’d banner MH, Chones and Worthen.
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…for four of those years, at least Markus was always a show worth watching, could drop 50 any night, and kept MU in the headlines. I’d banor MH, Chones and Worthen.
Doesn’t NC banner all all-Americans?
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If yall wanna remember the dumpster fire that this program was for 7 years, raise the banner.
Was it Markus's fault he got on a team with a pair of prima donnas?
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Jimmy Butler won’t be retired, probably ever. He would have to mend some fences and then lots of time would have to pass.
He would then have to come back to Marquette and play some more.
He was a 12/6 player. You don’t retire the jersey of guys like that. You also don’t retire the jersey of a guy for NBA accomplishments.
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He would then have to come back to Marquette and play some more.
He was a 12/6 player. You don’t retire the jersey of guys like that. You also don’t retire the jersey of a guy for NBA accomplishments.
Whatever markets Marquette's BB the greatest.
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Don't we have Kojis retired? Doesn't he have zero wind to his name? I get he was one of the first greats but if we were going to retire a program starting a great it should be Terry Rand.
Anyways point is the precedent of not having tournament success is there between Doc and Kojis
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It might be me, but "retiring" a jersey is just silly. Does that mean if someone with the last name of Howard decides to play at MU, he can't have Markus' number but anyone else can?
I'm in the retire his number camp.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but legitimate reasons do exist for not retiring numbers. For one, there are only 37 legal numbers available to college basketball teams. If you start retiring them you could really start hamstringing yourself over time.
Also, whether we agree or not, sometimes numbers are important to kids. There is a school of thought that you don’t want to take yourself out of a recruiting battle for a kid you really want because the number he wants is retired.
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I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but legitimate reasons do exist for not retiring numbers. For one, there are only 37 legal numbers available to college basketball teams. If you start retiring them you could really start hamstringing yourself over time.
Also, whether we agree or not, sometimes numbers are important to kids. There is a school of thought that you don’t want to take yourself out of a recruiting battle for a kid you really want because the number he wants is retired.
If a recruits don't want to come to MU because of a number F'ck 'em.
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If a recruits don't want to come to MU because of a number F'ck 'em.
And that’s another school of thought.
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Jimmy had adult relations with someone or something, aina retire his jersey
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I've long been a proponent of celebrating the player vs the player's number.
It's perfectly fine to retire someone's name/jersey/number, and to re-issue that number to someone else if need be. Have a grace period of time first, sure.
This means there may be multiple players celebrated/jersey retired with the same number. There could be 2, 3, 4 players with number 20 retired for example.
I also am a proponent of using more numbers/going higher too.
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If MU had won a conference championship, or heck, even a Big East Tournament title, we could ignore the NCAA tournament embarrassments.
But the fact Markus Howard led MU to 0 championships and postseason wins of any consequence makes it a hard no from me, dog.
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If MU had won a conference championship, or heck, even a Big East Tournament title, we could ignore the NCAA tournament embarrassments.
But the fact Markus Howard led MU to 0 championships and postseason wins of any consequence makes it a hard no from me, dog.
Ridiculous.
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If MU had won a conference championship, or heck, even a Big East Tournament title, we could ignore the NCAA tournament embarrassments.
But the fact Markus Howard led MU to 0 championships and postseason wins of any consequence makes it a hard no from me, dog.
I was unware Markus coached the team.
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Not ridiculous. I disagree with him, but not ridiculous. I am pleased that the current vote tally is 2-1 in favor.
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I think it is telling that no one has worn 33 (Jimmy) or 0 (Markus) since they graduated. But 32 (Hayward and Crowder), 1 (James), 22 (Chones and McNeal), and 23 (Matthews) have all been worn since.
Has anyone worn Diener's 34?
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It's ridiculous.
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For those unaware of the distinction, retiring a number means that number can never be issued to another Marquette player. Retiring a jersey means that the honored player has his jersey raised to the rafters, but there are no restrictions on future use of the number.
Remember when George Thompson was miffed when Lazar Hayward was issued "his" #24, because George thought the number had been retired. The school/staff at the time understood it to have been merely a jersey retirement. To Lazar's credit, when he found out about GT's reaction, he promptly switched to 32.
And, Markus' jersey should absolutely be retired. Like someone else above said, if you aren't retiring that jersey, then who would you EVER retire?
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It’s unfair to Markus but his overall legacy is somewhat tarnished because of the lack of team success. It’s unfair that he’ll always be associated with the failures of Wojo but that’s reality.
All of that being said, he should absolutely have his name/number whatever retired. The four year performance he put together is one of a kind. A program needs to honor that type of player and loyalty.
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I think it is telling that no one has worn 33 (Jimmy) or 0 (Markus) since they graduated. But 32 (Hayward and Crowder), 1 (James), 22 (Chones and McNeal), and 23 (Matthews) have all been worn since.
Has anyone worn Diener's 34?
Jayce Johnson in 2019-20
Dylan Flood in 2013-14
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It’s unfair to Markus but his overall legacy is somewhat tarnished because of the lack of team success. It’s unfair that he’ll always be associated with the failures of Wojo but that’s reality.
Which is odd because the team made the tourney twice while he was at MU, was a sure fire lock to make it a 3rd time until stopped by COVID, and had a decent little run in the NIT the year they did not make the tourney.
Or, put another way, Wojo never made a postseason tournament without Markus on the roster.
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If you aren't going to honor MU's all time leading scorer, the Big East's all time leading scorer, a two time All-American who also represented the school honorably in multiple other ways, who are you going to honor?
There is no such thing. The game today has no resemblance to the game when freshman were not eligible, no shot clock and no 3 point basket or 3 pt free throws. Do I think Markus' Jersey should be retired, of course. He was a great college ball player.
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Which is odd because the team made the tourney twice while he was at MU, was a sure fire lock to make it a 3rd time until stopped by COVID, and had a decent little run in the NIT the year they did not make the tourney.
Or, put another way, Wojo never made a postseason tournament without Markus on the roster.
Aka Markus had no post season success
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There is no such thing. The game today has no resemblance to the game when freshman were not eligible, no shot clock and no 3 point basket or 3 pt free throws. Do I think Markus' Jersey should be retired, of course. He was a great college ball player.
if Markus's 3s were 2s and you only take his 2-4 seasons he's still the top scorer by a lot. You're right there's a shot clock now and the free throws are different but as best as you can to normalize all the data he's still no 1 in scoring.
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Which is odd because the team made the tourney twice while he was at MU, was a sure fire lock to make it a 3rd time until stopped by COVID, and had a decent little run in the NIT the year they did not make the tourney.
Or, put another way, Wojo never made a postseason tournament without Markus on the roster.
Hopefully we never have to talk about the NIT again. That fact that people thought that was a success or an accomplishment is embarrassing
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This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
There are several players that should be honored before Howard. I have often thought #34 should be retired…Tony Smith, McIlvaine and Diener is a pretty good trio. If you’re gonna retire Howard, McNeal should be first.
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Hopefully we never have to talk about the NIT again. That fact that people thought that was a success or an accomplishment is embarrassing
It was Marquette basketball i could watch and they won like 3 or 4 games or something, it was a good time. I have no regrets. Wish I coulda watched more Davante Gardner in the NIT, for example. But an accomplishment? I wouldn't say that.
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This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
There are several players that should be honored before Howard. I have often thought #34 should be retired…Tony Smith, McIlvaine and Diener is a pretty good trio. If you’re gonna retire Howard, McNeal should be first.
I think that’s a Wojo problem and not a Markus problem.
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This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
There are several players that should be honored before Howard. I have often thought #34 should be retired…Tony Smith, McIlvaine and Diener is a pretty good trio. If you’re gonna retire Howard, McNeal should be first.
Well he helped get Oso here. He was huge in getting MU national press, he differed most his success to saying he had great teammates rather than be an attention hog. He was a great ambassador for the mental health issues athletes face, He conducted himself well off the court without any rumblings of issues (Jimmy), he graduated with honors, and while I strongly disagree with the ethos of Fellowship of Christian Athletes he was instrumental in developing the chapter at MU.
You don't like his game, that's fine. You don't like that the coach put him in that scenario, that's fine. You can't separate him from the hausers, that's fine. But the guy absolutely was a fantastic representative for the university and saying otherwise is disingenuous.
And for the record I'm not for retiring his jersey. I think we should take down everyone except Ellis and Wade. Maybe Lee. Beyond that have a banner that has name, number, & years played call it the legends banner or whatnot.
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Is there anything more ridiculous than a player hoisting up 30 shots and then citing his teammates?
How was he “huge” in getting National press? The most attention we got when he was here was for the Hauser’s leaving because of him.
What “rumblings of issues did Jimmy have? There were none.
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If MU had won a conference championship, or heck, even a Big East Tournament title, we could ignore the NCAA tournament embarrassments.
But the fact Markus Howard led MU to 0 championships and postseason wins of any consequence makes it a hard no from me, dog.
Exactly. Guys like Mike Trout or Dan Marino should never get any honors. They were/are embarrassments to their teams.
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Is there anything more ridiculous than a player hoisting up 30 shots and then citing his teammates?
How was he “huge” in getting National press? The most attention we got when he was here was for the Hauser’s leaving because of him.
What “rumblings of issues did Jimmy have? There were none.
1) Yes, praising the assists, praising that he had Rowsey or Sam that defenses also had to key in on. He easily could've been like "well try and stop me!"
2) Seriously? He literally kept MU as something to watch in 2019/20, he kept us on sportcenter. Without Markus that 18/19 team isn't a shadow of who they were. Sam needed a more athletic player to do a drive and dish. He wasn't going to carry that team on a 20-2 stretch.
3) maybe you weren't on campus or maybe you have your head i the sand like an ostrich. There absolutely were.
Again you've hated him since he started that's fine but it's a very important disclosure for context when posting.
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Yes
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I am of the opinion that there are players more deserving of this honor
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Wojo coached like he had one player on the team. One player shoots and the rest of the team watched.
Possibly if he had a better coach Markus may have developed into a better all around player. What Markus did was at an elite level but in other areas he was somewhat lacking.
In Smart's system he would have been much more effective but likely a lower scorer. He would have improved our 3 point shooting Percent and he would have improved overall. Add a Jim Chones type center and it would be dynasty time.
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The thing that is holding me back from saying his number should be retired right now is the lack of enough team success. Individual stats are mostly meaningless unless you also consider team success along with it.
The coach’s system that made him the focal point really wasn’t a winning formula. There’s a lot of players who could put up those stats if given the same green light.
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The thing that is holding me back from saying his number should be retired right now is the lack of enough team success. Individual stats are mostly meaningless unless you also consider team success along with it.
The coach’s system that made him the focal point really wasn’t a winning formula. There’s a lot of players who could put up those stats if given the same green light.
Are there though? The coach was here for 7 years, Markus was only here for 4 of them, and no one ever really came close to putting up his level of production within the same system.
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Exactly. Guys like Mike Trout or Dan Marino should never get any honors. They were/are embarrassments to their teams.
LMAO what? Dan Marino won 8 playoff games. And led the Dolphins to a Super Bowl.
If Markus had led us to the NCAA Championship game, heck, retire his jersey AND build him a statue.
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This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
There are several players that should be honored before Howard. I have often thought #34 should be retired…Tony Smith, McIlvaine and Diener is a pretty good trio. If you’re gonna retire Howard, McNeal should be first.
Sam was such a great leader, he quit. MH?…2xAA gets a banner.
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OK gang, accepting the difference between retiring the jersey and retiring the number, here's who I'd put in both categories:
Retired Numbers
15 -- Butch Lee
24 -- George Thompson (because of a commitment the University made to George)
31 -- Bo Ellis/Doc Rivers
You could sell me on 3 -- Dwyane Wade as well for what DWade did in 2003.
Now for the retired uniforms
11 -- Tyler Kolek!
14 -- Dean Meminger
20 -- Maurice Lucas
22 -- Jim Chones, Jeral McNeal
34 -- Tony Smith/Jim Mcilvaine
43 -- Earl Tatum
44 -- Don Kojis
45 -- Bob Lackey (a personal favorite for which few will agree)
Other than Lackey, the only controversial one on the list is Tyler "F**k 'em" Kolek. That's a few years away but I'd be sure to make room for it because it should happen.
I don't have Markus on this list because his contribution to the team and winning is lacking. He was a great shooter and good scorer but if he's going up there, Lackey, Tyler, Larry McNeill, Bernard Toone, Sam Worthen and Odell Ball and a host of others need to be there too!
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Exactly. Guys like Mike Trout or Dan Marino should never get any honors. They were/are embarrassments to their teams.
John Stockton, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing.
Strike that last one.
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Let's go full ass Carolina and retire a bunch of jerseys.
0- Howard
1- James
10- Miller
20- Lucas, Novak
22- McNeal, Chones
23- Matthews
31- Rivers
32- Hayward
33- Butler
34- Diener, T. Smith
43- Tatum
44- Kojis
Retired Numbers:
3- Wade
14- Meminger
15- Lee
24- Thompson
31- Ellis
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Juan Anderson is a Big East Champion, has a Sweet 16 and an Elite 8, and is an NBA Champion. I think he needs to be in the discussion too!
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Is there anything more ridiculous than a player hoisting up 30 shots and then citing his teammates?
How was he “huge” in getting National press? The most attention we got when he was here was for the Hauser’s leaving because of him.
What “rumblings of issues did Jimmy have? There were none.
You should stop using that handle.
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Sam was such a great leader, he quit. MH?…2xAA gets a banner.
Sam had his chances that magical season. Creighton he was 1/7 with 0 assists, Georgetown he was 2/11. I'm not bitter. Plenty of blame to go around.
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Sam had his chances that magical season. Creighton he was 1/7 with 0 assists, Georgetown he was 2/11. I'm not bitter. Plenty of blame to go around.
Hey you jerk!
You know facts are not allowed here!
His poor shooting was due to wojo recruiting him and getting him on the team! If Wojo hadn’t recruited Sam then he wouldn’t have shot that poorly against Georgetown or creighton.
Also Sam was super successful at Virginia… which proves he was all world here and Markus should have only passed to him.
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Everything in the article says jersey, not number.
What's the list of retired jerseys but non-retired numbers? Until the institution changes their practice, it's about retiring the number.
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Absolutely.
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What's the list of retired jerseys but non-retired numbers? Until the institution changes their practice, it's about retiring the number.
I think the fact that we have two 31's in the rafters proves it's jerseys and not numbers that get retired.
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Poorly researched.
1. States individual accolades shouldn’t be the measure yet then states individual accolades of two people without NCAA wins. Neither is in first place in those categories. Let alone by nearly 800 points
2. Calls out that Doc’s Jersey was retired because of his NBA success, except his Jersey was retired in 2004 which happened before his NBA Championship as a coach in 2008
3. Prior to that, Doc was a good player in the NBA but probably hasn’t had as good a career as many Marquette players whose jersey isn’t retired. I would say folks like Butler/Wes have had just as good of a playing career in the NBA. Doc’s NBA achievements as a player is one all-star appearance. At the time of his Jersey retirement as a coach it was one coach of the year. Should we start the Butler/Wes jerseys should or should not be retired thread before they officially retire?
4. Markus is the only MU player to be a consensus all-American twice.
5. Of the players to receive AA status only three haven’t had their jersey retired Chones, Markus and Worthen. Chones has an NBA title. So based on NBA success shouldnt his be retired too?
6. Calls out Doc for being number 10 in assists. Doc has 409 assists to Markus 392. Is 400 the magic number? does the 17 assists overshadow the 1500 point difference? 3yrs vs 4yrs shouldn't matter as it is career impact.
All this to say I think the criteria for not retiring Markus’ Jersey is arbitrary and poorly thought out.
The funniest inconsistency to me was saying Markus being the all time leading scorer doesn't matter, but justified Kojis' number being retired because he is the all time leading rebounder lol.
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Let's go full ass Carolina and retire a bunch of jerseys.
0- Howard
1- James
10- Miller
20- Lucas, Novak
22- McNeal, Chones
23- Matthews
31- Rivers
32- Hayward
33- Butler
34- Diener, T. Smith
43- Tatum
44- Kojis
Retired Numbers:
3- Wade
14- Meminger
15- Lee
24- Thompson
31- Ellis
I don't hate this.
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I think the fact that we have two 31's in the rafters proves it's jerseys and not numbers that get retired.
It doesn't though, because Ellis' 31 wasn't retired until after Doc's career. And no 31 has been issued since. Marquette claims they retired jerseys, but it's not true. Broeker said that no one will wear 3 again when Kam posted a commitment picture in that number. We had all the kerfuffle (twice) over George Thompson's number being worn again. Then this year they unretired 11 for Kolek, which wouldn't be necessary if it wasn't retired.
What they say or claim isn't as important as what the actual practice is. And the actual practice has always been once retired, the number isn't reused. Maybe Kolek & 11 cracks the door to change that, but if it does, Howard is just the first in a line of 10-20 jerseys that need retiring asap.
https://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2021/04/retired-numbers-vs-retired-jerseys.html?m=1
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Don't we have Kojis retired? Doesn't he have zero wind to his name? I get he was one of the first greats but if we were going to retire a program starting a great it should be Terry Rand.
RUH ROH, you gonna piss off the old heads with this one!
How was he “huge” in getting National press? The most attention we got when he was here was for the Hauser’s leaving because of him.
Sweet revisionist history. No attention at all to only the second time in 15 years the leading scorer in CBB was from a major conference. No attention to a consensus 1st team AA in chatter for NPOY.
I have a tweet saved that said, at the time, there were 4 50pt games in BEast history. Markus had 3. He was the only player since 2000 that had multiple 50 pt games. He was a national story constantly.
The coach’s system that made him the focal point really wasn’t a winning formula. There’s a lot of players who could put up those stats if given the same green light.
Less than 60 players in the history of the 3pt shot in CBB have shot a better percentage for their career than Markus. And less than 15 of those played in a major conference with strong competition all year. And less than 5 of those were focal point of every defense.
Just stop with that absurd BS.
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RUH ROH, you gonna piss off the old heads with this one!
Sweet revisionist history. No attention at all to only the second time in 15 years the leading scorer in CBB was from a major conference. No attention to a consensus 1st team AA in chatter for NPOY.
I have a tweet saved that said, at the time, there were 4 50pt games in BEast history. Markus had 3. He was the only player since 2000 that had multiple 50 pt games. He was a national story constantly.
Less than 60 players in the history of the 3pt shot in CBB have shot a better percentage for their career than Markus. And less than 15 of those played in a major conference with strong competition all year. And less than 5 of those were focal point of every defense.
Just stop with that absurd BS.
But...but...but...he played for Wojo.
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RUH ROH, you gonna piss off the old heads with this one!
I welcome it, they'd have to crap over the guy who started MUBB to justify Kangaroo jack
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I would just say that if we're talking NCAAT wins, back when Kojis played there were only 24 bids as opposed to 68 now. A little bit harder to qualify, no?
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I would just say that if we're talking NCAAT wins, back when Kojis played there were only 24 bids as opposed to 68 now. A little bit harder to qualify, no?
Only if you are COLE.
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Ha ha. Guess I'm guilty. :D
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if Markus's 3s were 2s and you only take his 2-4 seasons he's still the top scorer by a lot. You're right there's a shot clock now and the free throws are different but as best as you can to normalize all the data he's still no 1 in scoring.
...but Markus played more games.
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I think the fact that we have two 31's in the rafters proves it's jerseys and not numbers that get retired.
...even the Yankees retired #8 for Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey.
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...but Markus played more games.
Not wrong. As I said if you normalize the data as best you can. Like comparing any athletes of different eras there's always differences
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There is no such thing.
Yes there is. He is the leading scorer. Full stop.
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Wojo coached like he had one player on the team. One player shoots and the rest of the team watched.
Possibly if he had a better coach Markus may have developed into a better all around player. What Markus did was at an elite level but in other areas he was somewhat lacking.
In Smart's system he would have been much more effective but likely a lower scorer. He would have improved our 3 point shooting Percent and he would have improved overall. Add a Jim Chones type center and it would be dynasty time.
Y'all ever think how bad Wojo's teams would have been WITHOUT Markus?
I mean, it is insanely strange to me that people think that somehow Markus shouldn't be honored because of lack of team success, without thinking that it could have been so much worse without him. Our second best player in 2019-20 was Sacar Anim, yet they still were a lock for the tournament before COVID.
If anything, we should be praising Markus for being the primary reason we even got to witness the NCAA tournament under Wojo.
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...but Markus played more games.
Even if you remove Markus' freshman year and count all of his FGs as 2Ps, he still beats Thompson on a per game average.
Markus: 20.6 ppg (with all the conditions above)
Brute Force: 20.4 ppg
I'm a big believer that you can't accurately compare players between eras. But trying to claim that Markus isn't the all-time leading scorer in school history is silly.
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...but Markus played more games.
So what? If you count all of Markus' 3s as 2s from his sophomore to senior years, he would've scored 1,999 points in 97 games, averaging 20.6 ppg. Thompson scored 1,773 in 87 games, averaging 20.4 ppg. That takes nothing away from Thompson, but Howard was truly a generational scorer.
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Retire the jersey and erect a bronze or gold statue NOW!!
#M2N
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So what? If you count all of Markus' 3s as 2s from his sophomore to senior years, he would've scored 1,999 points in 97 games, averaging 20.6 ppg. Thompson scored 1,773 in 87 games, averaging 20.4 ppg. That takes nothing away from Thompson, but Howard was truly a generational scorer.
Well, Markus had a shot clock, so the NCAA forced him to shoot more often.
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Well, Markus had a shot clock, so the NCAA forced him to shoot more often.
Gonna have to report this post to the mods, I'm pretty sure we're only allowed to blame Wojo for how often Howard shot.
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Retire the jersey and erect a bronze or gold statue NOW!!
#M2N
I can’t believe I’m on BJ’s team on this…
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I would just say that if we're talking NCAAT wins, back when Kojis played there were only 24 bids as opposed to 68 now. A little bit harder to qualify, no?
Lot more teams now competing for spots.
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So what? If you count all of Markus' 3s as 2s from his sophomore to senior years, he would've scored 1,999 points in 97 games, averaging 20.6 ppg. Thompson scored 1,773 in 87 games, averaging 20.4 ppg. That takes nothing away from Thompson, but Howard was truly a generational scorer.
Shot clock would more than make up that difference of 0.2 ppg. Doesn't really matter, Markus is the all-time leading scorer.
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If anything, we should be praising Markus for being the primary reason we even got to witness the NCAA tournament under Wojo.
Witnessing our two NCAA tournament games with Markus under Wojo was among my 10 most painful experiences in 57 years of fandom. So, thanks?
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Y'all ever think how bad Wojo's teams would have been WITHOUT Markus?
I mean, it is insanely strange to me that people think that somehow Markus shouldn't be honored because of lack of team success, without thinking that it could have been so much worse without him. Our second best player in 2019-20 was Sacar Anim, yet they still were a lock for the tournament before COVID.
If anything, we should be praising Markus for being the primary reason we even got to witness the NCAA tournament under Wojo.
Well, I don't know what you think, but if I was a great player I would not have even considered playing for Marquette during the Howard/Rowsey era. I think when your primary ballhandlers call their own number way more than their teammates, it is not fun to play with them and not a place you'd want to play. I think Howard was the reason he didn't play with other good players. Well, not Howard, but the way the team played under Wojo.
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As someone once told me, if Markus goes pro and the white boys came back, you’d have had a lot more transfers
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As someone once told me, if Markus goes pro and the white boys came back, you’d have had a lot more transfers
But we would have had the unselfish white boys. By the way, the older white boy didn't seem to have a problem prior years.
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But we would have had the unselfish white boys. By the way, the older white boy didn't seem to have a problem prior years.
The fault lies with the staff. Full stop. This constant arguing about who to blame with regards to the players has been and remains idiotic. All the players are to blame to a degree but the ultimate fault stops with the man in charge.
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Well, I don't know what you think, but if I was a great player I would not have even considered playing for Marquette during the Howard/Rowsey era. I think when your primary ballhandlers call their own number way more than their teammates, it is not fun to play with them and not a place you'd want to play. I think Howard was the reason he didn't play with other good players. Well, not Howard, but the way the team played under Wojo.
That’s all fine and good. Some debatable. Doesn’t take away from what he accomplished.
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I'd rather have an Alaska Shootout banner than a Markus jersey in the rafters.
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The fault lies with the staff. Full stop. This constant arguing about who to blame with regards to the players has been and remains idiotic. All the players are to blame to a degree but the ultimate fault stops with the man in charge.
If the rumors are true that the grumblings started immediately after the Buffalo game, he should have had security walk the Hausers back to their room and help them pack.
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The fault lies with the staff. Full stop. This constant arguing about who to blame with regards to the players has been and remains idiotic. All the players are to blame to a degree but the ultimate fault stops with the man in charge.
True
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If the rumors are true that the grumblings started immediately after the Buffalo game, he should have had security walk the Hausers back to their room and help them pack.
Testify. Akin to how Buzz handled Maymon.
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Well, I don't know what you think, but if I was a great player I would not have even considered playing for Marquette during the Howard/Rowsey era. I think when your primary ballhandlers call their own number way more than their teammates, it is not fun to play with them and not a place you'd want to play. I think Howard was the reason he didn't play with other good players. Well, not Howard, but the way the team played under Wojo.
100%
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Would anyone trade TKO for Howard?
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We should rename the Al the Davante Gardner Automatic Arena
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Would anyone trade TKO for Howard?
This is an actual question. If kolek was to leave after this season, would we retire his number, and if not.... would you trade kolek for Howard right now?
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Testify. Akin to how Buzz handled Maymon.
I wasn’t aware of the hauser’s parents disrupting practice everyday and calling Wojo non stop with “pointers” ala Tim Maymon.
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This is an actual question. If kolek was to leave after this season, would we retire his number, and if not.... would you trade kolek for Howard right now?
Because awards and accolades matter in this discussion and Kolek hasn't won any yet. I think he will win plenty by the time he's done and may end up getting his numbers in the rafters before all is said and done
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Thought it was weird that Illinois "retired" Ayo's jersey 2 months into his rookie year, but they actually just "honor" jerseys and it's a fairly straightforward process.
In the past 20+ years I think it would just be DW, Jae, and Markus who fit the mold for this. I think this is reasonable. If TK wins BEPOE then he would be as well.
Players selected to have their jerseys hung must have achieved any of the following criteria:
1) National Player of the Year
2) Enshrined in the National Basketball Hall of Fame
3) Big Ten Player of the Year
4) Consensus First- or Second-Team All-American
5) Illinois All-Century Team Member
6) Individual whose pioneering efforts made a significant impact on Illinois and international basketball
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I wasn’t aware of the hauser’s parents disrupting practice everyday and calling Wojo non stop with “pointers” ala Tim Maymon.
No problem with that since, clearly, Woj didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, aina?
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Preach Rican,
This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
Woj signed his own termination papers when he was left to hold his own small nuts because he hooked up with Howard and lost his team, hey?
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Preach Rican,
This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
Woj signed his own termination papers when he was left to hold his own small nuts because he hooked up with Howard and lost his team, hey?
Representing your university has a lot more to do than success on the basketball court.
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Representing your university has a lot more to do than success on the basketball court.
Exactly. Let's talk about on the court. In 2017-8, Marquette's big three shot attempts per game:
Markus:15
Rowsey:14
Sam:10
Sounds, equitable, which of course led to a 9-9 Big East record, and 21-14 overall.
In 2018-9, it was:
Markus 17.6
Sam 11
Joseph 7
A whopping 2.6 more shots a game for Markus, so not as equitable, but more successful. 12-6 Big East, 24-10 overall.
So, who's the selfish one in this scenario?
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Exactly. Let's talk about on the court. In 2017-8, Marquette's big three shot attempts per game:
Markus:15
Rowsey:14
Sam:10
Sounds, equitable, which of course led to a 9-9 Big East record, and 21-14 overall.
In 2018-9, it was:
Markus 17.6
Sam 11
Joseph 7
A whopping 2.6 more shots a game for Markus, so not as equitable, but more successful. 12-6 Big East, 24-10 overall.
So, who's the selfish one in this scenario?
If Sam and Joey Hauser were two brothers from Chicago, they’d have long ago been forgotten. It’s as simple as that
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Lots of negative vibes here boys. Let’s get back to the how old are you poll. Or talking about nuts. We have a lot to celebrate.
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Representing your university has a lot more to do than success on the basketball court.
Great, so retire his leisure suit, hey?
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The Lens
I am with you, both on thoughts of Howard in general and what we should be talking about today. MU won a monster game last night and that is all I care about at the moment.
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Maybe this time we'll finally be able to settle the Hausershima issue.
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Preach Rican,
This idea that Howard was a “representative” of Marquette is a bunch of nonsense. He drove two of our best players to transfer. That’s his legacy. Sam’s success magnifies it, which is why I assume this poll materialized. Sam was no “prima donna.” That’s a joke. He was a leader and one of the best players we’ve had since DWade. He simply tried to get Wojo to coach the damn team and the guy refused. That takes a lot of guts. He made the right decision to leave.
Woj signed his own termination papers when he was left to hold his own small nuts because he hooked up with Howard and lost his team, hey?
Did he become known as the campus pothead? Nope, but another all time scorer did.
Did he have an interesting "team bonding" activity that made the front page? Nope but plenty of Buzz top guys did.
Did he get filmed at a massive bar fight while underage? Nope but buzz's guys did
Did he dangle a person outside a window? Nope but one of Al's guys did.
Did he bail on MU despite bad coaching and no talent? Nope
Did he represent the university with class, address important issues, bring in a new organization, not have off court issues, keep us fairly competitive for a whole year of zero talent around him, and give credit to teammates and coaches when he could've been "me me me" in interviews? Yes.
Another instance where someone is refusing to give the guy his due credit just because of Wojo and the Hausers. It's absurd, even more absurd that I'm saying give the guy his credit for bringing in an org that aligns with your views and yet you'd toss him under the bus when I'm saying "good for him"
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If Sam and Joey Hauser were two brothers from Chicago, they’d have long ago been forgotten. It’s as simple as that
Yup
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If Sam and Joey Hauser were two brothers from Chicago, they’d have long ago been forgotten. It’s as simple as that
Should brothers be in quotes? or is that already assumed.
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Brothas
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Exactly. Let's talk about on the court. In 2017-8, Marquette's big three shot attempts per game:
Markus:15
Rowsey:14
Sam:10
Sounds, equitable, which of course led to a 9-9 Big East record, and 21-14 overall.
In 2018-9, it was:
Markus 17.6
Sam 11
Joseph 7
A whopping 2.6 more shots a game for Markus, so not as equitable, but more successful. 12-6 Big East, 24-10 overall.
So, who's the selfish one in this scenario?
I'd be curious to see how this compares to the Top 3 on this year's team.
And last year's for that matter.
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I get the stats...but from my eye test of MU point guards...I can't speak to an eye test on Tony Miller or Tony Smith (only remember wanting to be them at a very young age), but I'll take Diener or TK over Howard if I was putting a team together. Not even close.
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I get the stats...but from my eye test of MU point guards...I can't speak to an eye test on Tony Miller or Tony Smith (only remember wanting to be them at a very young age), but I'll take Diener or TK over Howard if I was putting a team together. Not even close.
So you’re taking the 2 PGs over a SG who just handled the ball more, got it. Howard was never a PG.
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So you’re taking the 2 PGs over a SG who just handled the ball more, got it. Howard was never a PG.
A 5' 11" SG who handled the ball more than TK does? Can't respect that. Perhaps my bias against him is completely ridiculous...but I wouldn't want him on this team.
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Sigh, Markus was a PG. You can argue SG was his mote natural position, but he was MUs PG
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Some are saying Markus did what Wojo asked him to do, but I think it’s the opposite. Wojo did what Markus and the Howard family wanted *him* to do: Give Markus unlimited shots, the ultimate green light, all of it, all the time. What an awful brand of basketball to watch. Shaka would give a player like that (and his parents) the Uncle Phil/DJ Jazzy Jeff treatment.
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I'd be curious to see how this compares to the Top 3 on this year's team.
And last year's for that matter.
This year:
Kam 12
Omax,Oso,TKo,andJop are between 7.6 and 9
Last year:
Justin 14
Morsell 10
TKo 7
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Should brothers be in quotes? or is that already assumed.
I guess you don't know Rico talk
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Right after Chones.
In the 50 games Jim Chones played in for Marquette, the team went 49-1.
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Some are saying Markus did what Wojo asked him to do, but I think it’s the opposite. Wojo did what Markus and the Howard family wanted *him* to do: Give Markus unlimited shots, the ultimate green light, all of it, all the time. What an awful brand of basketball to watch. Shaka would give a player like that (and his parents) the Uncle Phil/DJ Jazzy Jeff treatment.
Lol
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Sigh, Markus was a PG. You can argue SG was his mote natural position, but he was MUs PG
I don’t disagree. I’m just saying it’s not a fair comparison. Like comparing Lazar as a 5 to Mac cause they both played it for MU. Howard played PG, but that wasn’t his position. So saying you’d take natural PGs like Diener or Kolek over Howard isn’t a diss, even though it’s meant to be.
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Some are saying Markus did what Wojo asked him to do, but I think it’s the opposite. Wojo did what Markus and the Howard family wanted *him* to do: Give Markus unlimited shots, the ultimate green light, all of it, all the time. What an awful brand of basketball to watch. Shaka would give a player like that (and his parents) the Uncle Phil/DJ Jazzy Jeff treatment.
Unicorn dust is a hell of a drug.
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Markus adding to his legacy, leading his Baskonia team to a title*
https://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/news/828754/Baskonia-rally-past-Tortona-to-win-Alava-Trophy (https://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/news/828754/Baskonia-rally-past-Tortona-to-win-Alava-Trophy)
*preseason title
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Article reads like it was written by AI. All you need is "it was a close encounter of the athletic kind."
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Why didn't they just raise 0 into the rafters on his Senior Night?
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Why didn't they just raise 0 into the rafters on his Senior Night?
The meat eaters wrote a letter (preliminary injunction)
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Why didn't they just raise 0 into the rafters on his Senior Night?
Ha! And so it begins.
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Why didn't they just raise 0 into the rafters on his Senior Night?
I would imagine because he hadn't graduated yet. As to why it hasn't happened since, the only reason that I can think of (other than the logistics of finding a date that works with his season) is that Wojo would be invited and that's probably still to fresh where it would be a distraction.
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I would imagine because he hadn't graduated yet. As to why it hasn't happened since, the only reason that I can think of (other than the logistics of finding a date that works with his season) is that Wojo would be invited and that's probably still to fresh where it would be a distraction.
Yeah given how long we booed Crean for leaving for an objectively better program and still giving us a coach who brought us greater success I'd say that we'd still be very very petty about Wojo walking out there with Markus.
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I would imagine because he hadn't graduated yet. As to why it hasn't happened since, the only reason that I can think of (other than the logistics of finding a date that works with his season) is that Wojo would be invited and that's probably still to fresh where it would be a distraction.
I mean, it took three years to retire Wade's number after he went pro. We're a little over three years since Markus graduated. I think #0 should be retired....but he doesn't need to be retired at the same speed as #3.
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I mean, it took three years to retire Wade's number after he went pro. We're a little over three years since Markus graduated. I think #0 should be retired....but he doesn't need to be retired at the same speed as #3.
And to think, Wade still hasn't graduated yet (although he does hold a doctorate).
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I would imagine because he hadn't graduated yet. As to why it hasn't happened since, the only reason that I can think of (other than the logistics of finding a date that works with his season) is that Wojo would be invited and that's probably still to fresh where it would be a distraction.
…not sure of Wojo’s sentiments toward MU, but I feel he deserves a round of applause for recruiting MH. When the day comes, I hope Wojo is there.
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…not sure of Wojo’s sentiments toward MU, but I feel he deserves a round of applause for recruiting MH. When the day comes, I hope Wojo is there.
A hearty applause to Stan Johnson
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…not sure of Wojo’s sentiments toward MU, but I feel he deserves a round of applause for recruiting MH. When the day comes, I hope Wojo is there.
Agreed, although all you have to do is read this thread to see that sentiment is not universal among the fanbase. The more success Shaka has, the faster people will forget about Wojo. IMO TC would have been able to move to the back of people's mind much quicker if they had just taken him out of that Titans video.
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Markus adding to his legacy, leading his Baskonia team to a title*
https://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/news/828754/Baskonia-rally-past-Tortona-to-win-Alava-Trophy (https://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/news/828754/Baskonia-rally-past-Tortona-to-win-Alava-Trophy)
Markus Howard vs Mike Daum (8th in NCAA scoring I belive)
*preseason title
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I went through and re-read most of the posts on Markus Howard, hoping something would change my mind.
Nothing did.
Coach Wojo was to Marquette what Press Maravich was to LSU. Basically let one person "be" the offense. In Press' case, it was his son. In Wojo's case, it was obviously Markus. People knew what was happening and in time they adjusted to it.
Candidly, having seen both Pete Maravich and Markus, I wasn't impressed. Neither accomplished a damn thing at their universities. LSU and Marquette were perennial back of the standings teams in their conference while Maravich and Markus played.
In LSU's case, they made a much vaunted trip to the NIT in 1970, only to get run over by the Al McGuire lawnmower. Markus went to the NCAA once and was hit hard by the Murray State run-away truck. Teams like Marquette don't lose to teams like Murray State, even with Ja Morant.
If I was an LSU fan -- God forbid -- I'd want Maravich's number retired for what he did after LSU, in the pros. He brought lots of attention and publicity to LSU, even after his Dad was fired.
So no, Markus' point totals were at the expense of the Marquette team and our performance. Therefore, I'd retire Buzz in the rafters before I do Markus.
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Crean’s avg adj offensive efficiency ranking: 46.6
Buzz’s: 35.5
Wojo w/o Markus: 121.3
Wojo w/Markus: 16.5
3 (would have been) of 4 years with tourney bids for #M2N.
Elite offensive teams, simple as that.
Statue, NOW!!
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Markus went to the NCAA once
Huh?
Markus' point totals were at the expense of the Marquette team and our performance.
As a freshman, Markus was an extremely valuable role player for an NCAA tournament team.
As a junior, Howard was Big East Player of the Year for an NCAA tournament team, albeit a flawed one that featured numerous players who couldn't play a lick of defense.
As a senior, Markus was an All-American for a team that would have struggled to go .500 without him but, thanks primarily to him, would have made the NCAA tournament had Covid not ended the season prematurely.
He has nothing to do with a player from another school who played a half-century earlier.
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I went through and re-read most of the posts on Markus Howard, hoping something would change my mind.
Nothing did.
Coach Wojo was to Marquette what Press Maravich was to LSU. Basically let one person "be" the offense. In Press' case, it was his son. In Wojo's case, it was obviously Markus. People knew what was happening and in time they adjusted to it.
Candidly, having seen both Pete Maravich and Markus, I wasn't impressed. Neither accomplished a damn thing at their universities. LSU and Marquette were perennial back of the standings teams in their conference while Maravich and Markus played.
In LSU's case, they made a much vaunted trip to the NIT in 1970, only to get run over by the Al McGuire lawnmower. Markus went to the NCAA once and was hit hard by the Murray State run-away truck. Teams like Marquette don't lose to teams like Murray State, even with Ja Morant.
If I was an LSU fan -- God forbid -- I'd want Maravich's number retired for what he did after LSU, in the pros. He brought lots of attention and publicity to LSU, even after his Dad was fired.
So no, Markus' point totals were at the expense of the Marquette team and our performance. Therefore, I'd retire Buzz in the rafters before I do Markus.
Holy getting basic facts wrong Batman, I think we got us a sweater vest.
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I went through and re-read most of the posts on Markus Howard, hoping something would change my mind.
Nothing did.
Coach Wojo was to Marquette what Press Maravich was to LSU. Basically let one person "be" the offense. In Press' case, it was his son. In Wojo's case, it was obviously Markus. People knew what was happening and in time they adjusted to it.
Candidly, having seen both Pete Maravich and Markus, I wasn't impressed. Neither accomplished a damn thing at their universities. LSU and Marquette were perennial back of the standings teams in their conference while Maravich and Markus played.
In LSU's case, they made a much vaunted trip to the NIT in 1970, only to get run over by the Al McGuire lawnmower. Markus went to the NCAA once and was hit hard by the Murray State run-away truck. Teams like Marquette don't lose to teams like Murray State, even with Ja Morant.
If I was an LSU fan -- God forbid -- I'd want Maravich's number retired for what he did after LSU, in the pros. He brought lots of attention and publicity to LSU, even after his Dad was fired.
So no, Markus' point totals were at the expense of the Marquette team and our performance. Therefore, I'd retire Buzz in the rafters before I do Markus.
"Marquette was perennial back of standings"
Marquette finished: 3, 6, 2, 6 during Howard's tenure. Not great but not perennial back half
"Markus went to the NCAA tournament once"
Ok ignore 2017 why don't you. They were also a lock in 2020, would've gotten steam rolled again I'm sure but were in nonetheless.
"Teams like Marquette don't lose to teams like Murray state"
A better team than 2019 struggled hugely with them in 2012. But to refresh your memory, we do lose to teams like Murray st, the record books are littered with losses over the year to teams much worse than Murray St.
Here's the link so you can review our records vs the 'inferior' programs:
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/sidearm.nextgen.sites/gomarquette.com/documents/2023/6/26/2023-24_Marquette_MBB_Record_Book.pdf?timestamp=20230626025135
I'm not saying your comparison is bad or good but get the facts right. Jesus there's enough reasons to not retire Markus' jersey by just saying "no tournament runs, no conference championships" without putting out falsehoods.
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So no, Markus' point totals were at the expense of the Marquette team and our performance.
Not only are you getting dunked on for getting basic facts wrong, but this is just horsesh*t.
Wojo isn't a great coach and misused a lot of players. But Markus was a fantastic player and representative of the University.
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Whether you enjoyed Markus's style, hate how Markus was used, or hated the coach that coached Markus, I don't know how anyone could "not be impressed" by Markus. That dude took an absolute beating every single night and just kept going. One of the more well conditioned college basketball players I've ever seen play. And an absolutely special scorer.
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Huh?
As a freshman, Markus was an extremely valuable role player for an NCAA tournament team.
As a junior, Howard was Big East Player of the Year for an NCAA tournament team, albeit a flawed one that featured numerous players who couldn't play a lick of defense.
As a senior, Markus was an All-American for a team that would have struggled to go .500 without him but, thanks primarily to him, would have made the NCAA tournament had Covid not ended the season prematurely.
He has nothing to do with a player from another school who played a half-century earlier.
100%.
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Not only are you getting dunked on for getting basic facts wrong, but this is just horsesh*t.
Wojo isn't a great coach and misused a lot of players. But Markus was a fantastic player and representative of the University.
…also 100%
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wades
If Kolek has a similar year this season to he had last season, would you be in favor of his number retired?
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Jersey. And yes, if Kolek has a similar season and wins similar accolades in 23-24, I think his jersey should one day be hung from the rafters.
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wades
If Kolek has a similar year this season to he had last season, would you be in favor of his number retired?
2-time All American and 2-time BEPOY? I would say yes.
Just imagine if he comes back next season too.
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2-time All American and 2-time BEPOY? I would say yes.
Just imagine if he comes back next season too.
If he comes back next year he could feasibly touch Tony Miller's untouchable assist record.
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wades
If Kolek has a similar year this season to he had last season, would you be in favor of his number retired?
Absolutely.
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If he comes back next year he could feasibly touch Tony Miller's untouchable assist record.
If he comes back next year he could feasibly touch Bobby Hurley's untouchable assist record.
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If Kolek plays at a similar level the next seasons, he is in my top ten, possibly top five all time MU player. He will be the George Thompson of the second era of MU basketball greatness, IMO.
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If he comes back next year he could feasibly touch Tony Miller's untouchable assist record.
It's more than feasible. If he gets the same assists each of the next two years, he'd beat Millers record by around 40. From there, he'd only need to add about 45 more each season to break Bobby Hurley's all time record. 45 sounds like a lot, but when you're averaging 7.5 a game, that's only six more games of assists. Increase the average by a little both seasons, go deeper in March and it becomes doable.
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If Kolek has a similar year this season to he had last season, would you be in favor of his number retired?
Don't know what this has to do with Markus Howard, but sure.
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It's more than feasible. If he gets the same assists each of the next two years, he'd beat Millers record by around 40. From there, he'd only need to add about 45 more each season to break Bobby Hurley's all time record. 45 sounds like a lot, but when you're averaging 7.5 a game, that's only six more games of assists. Increase the average by a little both seasons, go deeper in March and it becomes doable.
Do we add an asterisk though?
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Do we add an asterisk though?
Literally? No. In our heads?
For Tony Miller's record? I would say no, this only includes his assists at Marquette. Both would have done it in four years.
For Bobby Hurley's record? If TyKo's 50 assists at George Mason are the difference between him breaking the record or not, then probably. If not, then I would say no, both did it in four years.
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OK guys, if you can convince the basketball leadership at Marquette to retire Markus Howard's jersey, be my guest.
Compared to the other Marquette greats that are in the rafters, Markus Howard is light years behind. How many of you really think Markus is a Marquette great in the line with George Thompson, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Dean Meminger, Dwyane Wade or Maurice Lucas? Let's also consider some of the great Warriors who aren't up there, such as Jim Chones, Wes Matthews or Travis Diener. I may be a "sweatervest", but I've seen a lot of Marquette basketball and these guys made a difference to our program.
I don't see how Markus did.
Keep in mind that in the tournament that counts, we were 0 for the Wojo era, of which Markus was a big part. Wojo got fired for a reason. Markus was a big part of that! We demonize the Hauser brothers, which I admit is easy, but think about what any of us would have done if we were in Sam and Joey's shoes. You had a ball hogging guard who was going to be there another year and you were getting the leftovers. And, like Vanilla Soft Serve, Markus couldn't play defense.
At the end of the day, Markus was a good shot and apparently, a very impressive human being. Buit, he didn't make the team around him better nor was a vital cog in a Big East leading program.
All that said, if you want a reminder of the Wojo era every time you walk into the FiServ, hang a Markus banner.
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If Kolek plays at a similar level the next seasons, he is in my top ten, possibly top five all time MU player. He will be the George Thompson of the second era of MU basketball greatness, IMO.
Goose:
3rd era
1. Al
2. Wojo
3. Shaka
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OK guys, if you can convince the basketball leadership at Marquette to retire Markus Howard's jersey, be my guest.
Compared to the other Marquette greats that are in the rafters, Markus Howard is light years behind. How many of you really think Markus is a Marquette great in the line with George Thompson, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Dean Meminger, Dwyane Wade or Maurice Lucas? Let's also consider some of the great Warriors who aren't up there, such as Jim Chones, Wes Matthews or Travis Diener. I may be a "sweatervest", but I've seen a lot of Marquette basketball and these guys made a difference to our program.
Anyone who thinks Wes Matthews made a difference to the Marquette program, and Markus Howard didn't, should probably put the keyboard away and take a nap. Or watch few more basketball games.
Keep in mind that in the tournament that counts, we were 0 for the Wojo era, of which Markus was a big part. Wojo got fired for a reason. Markus was a big part of that!
No. This is where you are wrong. Markus wasn't a "big part" of Wojo getting fired. Markus was the primary reason Wojo had any success in the first place.
All that said, if you want a reminder of the Wojo era every time you walk into the FiServ, hang a Markus banner.
I wouldn't think of the "Wojo era" at all. I would think of all the great games Markus had.
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Dgies, I generally respect your opinion on most things. And I respect it here, too. It is impossible for me to disagree more.
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OK guys, if you can convince the basketball leadership at Marquette to retire Markus Howard's jersey, be my guest.
Compared to the other Marquette greats that are in the rafters, Markus Howard is light years behind. How many of you really think Markus is a Marquette great in the line with George Thompson, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Dean Meminger, Dwyane Wade or Maurice Lucas? Let's also consider some of the great Warriors who aren't up there, such as Jim Chones, Wes Matthews or Travis Diener. I may be a "sweatervest", but I've seen a lot of Marquette basketball and these guys made a difference to our program.
I don't see how Markus did.
Keep in mind that in the tournament that counts, we were 0 for the Wojo era, of which Markus was a big part. Wojo got fired for a reason. Markus was a big part of that! We demonize the Hauser brothers, which I admit is easy, but think about what any of us would have done if we were in Sam and Joey's shoes. You had a ball hogging guard who was going to be there another year and you were getting the leftovers. And, like Vanilla Soft Serve, Markus couldn't play defense.
At the end of the day, Markus was a good shot and apparently, a very impressive human being. Buit, he didn't make the team around him better nor was a vital cog in a Big East leading program.
All that said, if you want a reminder of the Wojo era every time you walk into the FiServ, hang a Markus banner.
Sam averaged 8.8, 14.1, 14.9 (11.1 FGA) at Marquette he averaged 16 (11.7 FGA) at Virginia with a year on the bench to age up. I don't think Markus was the one holding him back from 1.1 ppg because Markus didn't give him .6 more FGA a game.
Joey averaged 9.7 (7.1 FGA) at Marquette, then after a year of growing still went 9.7 (7.1 FGA) 7.3 (5.3 FGA) and 14.4 (10 FGA) Was it Markus and Wojo still holding Joey back?
Just for reference let's also add in that Rowsey managed 20.5ppg when Sam and Howard were sophomores so the ball was getting around plenty then.
Markus was objectively a ball hog in the 19-20 season arguably by necessity but Sam seemingly got enough touches to maximize his scoring output in 18-19 and 17-18 unless you think there was a ball hog on Virginia? Joey, you could argue deserved more but given what he showed at MSU for the next two years I'm not sure he did.
The Wojo system was terrible and the ball wasn't shared well but they got plenty of looks to hit the numbers that they put up elsewhere.
All that said I do agree with your better points about the non Doc Rivers people up in the rafters and about who isn't retired.
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Lol at the idea that Markus did not make the team better. Look at the roster his senior year. The best players on the roster not named Markus Howard were Sacar Anim, Koby McEwen, and Brendan Bailey. Those guys are mid major players. Remove Markus from that team and they in maybe 3 conference games. Instead they were an NCAA Tournament team had it not been canceled.
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I have heard a lot of sweater-vests say that they hate the fact that Don Kojis' number is retired because it reminds them too much of the Eddie Hickey era.
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dgies:
It's one thing to opine on whether or not Markus deserves to have his jersey hoisted to the rafters. We all have opinions.
But your argument is filled with errors of fact - which you still haven't acknowledged - as well as poorly reasoned conclusions. Please read Galway's post about how Markus' teammates got plenty of opportunities; it's simple stats and facts.
You can do better (and usually do), so I was surprised by your continued attacks on a two-time All-American who gave every ounce of energy he had every single game.
Oh, and I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the honored jerseys when I go to games ... but if I did look up and see "0" up there, I'd be thankful I got to watch a great warrior play. I wouldn't think of Wojo for one second.
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I have heard a lot of sweater-vests say that they hate the fact that Don Kojis' number is retired because it reminds them too much of the Eddie Hickey era.
Ha! That is part of the rational being used to dis Markus.
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Markus Howard was one of the best players and best people to ever put on a Marquette jersey. He belongs in the rafters easily.
Every single team in the NCAA would have been elated to have him on their team ever year he played at Marquette.
I can't imagine anyone subjectively arguing otherwise.
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dgies:
It's one thing to opine on whether or not Markus deserves to have his jersey hoisted to the rafters. We all have opinions.
But your argument is filled with errors of fact - which you still haven't acknowledged - as well as poorly reasoned conclusions. Please read Galway's post about how Markus' teammates got plenty of opportunities; it's simple stats and facts.
You can do better (and usually do), so I was surprised by your continued attacks on a two-time All-American who gave every ounce of energy he had every single game.
Oh, and I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the honored jerseys when I go to games ... but if I did look up and see "0" up there, I'd be thankful I got to watch a great warrior play. I wouldn't think of Wojo for one second.
Sure dat "0" woodant bea for Oliver Lee, hey?
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Dgeezer thinks Yadi is the greatest baseball player of all time. Leave him with his thoughts.
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Sure dat "0" woodant bea for Oliver Lee, hey?
Nah. Anyone who would see that number in the rafters would be reminded of Hank's team that lost to Miami of Ohio.
Similarly, when I see the #3 up there, I don't think of the great Dwyane Wade but of Crean going to Indiana.
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Markus Howard was one of the best players and best people to ever put on a Marquette jersey. He belongs in the rafters easily.
Every single team in the NCAA would have been elated to have him on their team ever year he played at Marquette.
I can't imagine anyone subjectively arguing otherwise.
I wouldn't take him over TK or Diener. Think Shaka would trade TK for Markus?
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I wouldn't take him over TK or Diener. Think Shaka would trade TK for Markus?
They're great in their own way. I know I never saw Travis in college but based on stats, videos, & accolades plus toughness of competition I'd take both over Travis.
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They're great in their own way. I know I never saw Travis in college but based on stats, videos, & accolades plus toughness of competition I'd take both over Travis.
Travis Diener was and is, a dude. Would have been a star and dude on any Marquett team and for any Marquette coach.
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Travis Diener was and is, a dude. Would have been a star and dude on any Marquett team and for any Marquette coach.
Saying a two major conference POYs and all Americans were better in no way diminishes anything that he did or was.
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You guys should really stop dissing
Markus. He was a great player, great scorer and a great representative of MU.
He was - at times - a walking highlight real. Should his number in the rafters ?
Yes. He’s the all time leading scorer at MU. Whether he is “ better “ than Travis or TKO does not matter.
As someone said above in his Jr and Sr years there’s not a team in the country that would not have wanted / taken him.
Could he have been better w / another coach? Sure. But that’s not on him
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Dgeezer
Solid
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I wouldn't take him over TK or Diener. Think Shaka would trade TK for Markus?
That’s an opinion and you’re entitled to it. I’m a huge fan of both, too, and would have no problem with either or both being honored.
But it has little if anything to do with honoring a two-time All-American who was nothing but a great representative of our alma mater while setting the all-time scoring record.
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They're great in their own way. I know I never saw Travis in college but based on stats, videos, & accolades plus toughness of competition I'd take both over Travis.
Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?
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Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?
Let’s not go overboard here. He was a very good player.
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They're great in their own way. I know I never saw Travis in college but based on stats, videos, & accolades plus toughness of competition I'd take both over Travis.
That's crazy talk.
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Let’s not go overboard here. He was a very good player.
No hyperbole, #34 is a flat out winner, hey?
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I wouldn't take him over TK or Diener. Think Shaka would trade TK for Markus?
TKO would very much struggle to have the influence he currently does in a Wojo schemed offense. If the only swap that is happening is M2N for TKO, the Wojo era would look worse than it does and the Shaka era would look better.
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No hyperbole, #34 is a flat out winner, hey?
Except, of course, when he was a senior and even before he got hurt was a borderline NCAA team at best.
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Love Travis Denier. And would want him on my team any day of the week. But, Markus Howard would have thrived on a team with Wade, Novak and Jackson. This is a time and place argument more than anything.
Wojo has tainted the views of a minority of the fan base. Markus Howard was a great player and received national recognition for his play at a time and place with an average coach surrounded by much less talent than Travis Deiner. He was the only good thing going for MU during his tenure. Not his issue in the slightest.
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Love Travis Denier. And would want him on my team any day of the week. But, Markus Howard would have thrived on a team with Wade, Novak and Jackson. This is a time and place argument more than anything.
Wojo has tainted the views of a minority of the fan base. Markus Howard was a great player and received national recognition for his play at a time and place with an average coach surrounded by much less talent than Travis Deiner. He was the only good thing going for MU during his tenure. Not his issue in the slightest.
Yeah, Wojo tainted my views of Howard. Usage rate of 40% and assist to turnover ratio below one.
I would have loved seeing Marcus play in an offense that was moving the ball, and that wasn't relying on him to take bad shots to save possessions. I'm not saying he wasn't up to the challenge, I'm just saying it stinks that he had to carry every game.
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Lol at the idea that Markus did not make the team better. Look at the roster his senior year. The best players on the roster not named Markus Howard were Sacar Anim, Koby McEwen, and Brendan Bailey. Those guys are mid major players. Remove Markus from that team and they in maybe 3 conference games. Instead they were an NCAA Tournament team had it not been canceled.
Agreed - he put in an all worldly season given the extreme lack of talent on that team along with a clueless coach.
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I, too, love Diener. But he never went to an NCAA without Wade. The offense was bogging down during his senior year even before he selfishly lost his temper leading to MU getting humiliated by Western Michigan in the bleeping NIT. Led a team that made negative history by going from the final 4 to the NIT. Returning 3 starters and moving Novak into the starting line up.
Markus > Travis.
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TKO would very much struggle to have the influence he currently does in a Wojo schemed offense. If the only swap that is happening is M2N for TKO, the Wojo era would look worse than it does and the Shaka era would look better.
Markus Howard struggled to have the influence he should have had in a wojo schemed offense. That's why his teams lost a lot. No team's with Markus Howard, and as importantly Sam Hauser, should have lost that many games.
Markus was 79-49 when player which is a 61.7% which is lower than the schools all time percentage. And that includes nearly 50 years of .500 basketball before Al.
But subbing Markus for Tyler would not make the Shaka Era look better. That's a crazy take.
Markus wasn't on pair with Tyler defensively. And the only time Markus was able to generate close to the offense close to the offense Marquette had last year was when Andrew Rowsey was orchestrating it and the entire team refused to play defense.
This century, really only Jae Crowder and Dwayne Wade have hade THAT level impact that Kolek had this past year.
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JB has explained multiple times how elite MU's offense with Markus at the helm.
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You guys should really stop dissing
Markus. He was a great player, great scorer and a great representative of MU.
He was - at times - a walking highlight real. Should his number in the rafters ?
Yes. He’s the all time leading scorer at MU. Whether he is “ better “ than Travis or TKO does not matter.
As someone said above in his Jr and Sr years there’s not a team in the country that would not have wanted / taken him.
Could he have been better w / another coach? Sure. But that’s not on him
100%
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Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?
as our man Homer called him, Kid Assassin!
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Yeah, Wojo tainted my views of Howard. Usage rate of 40% and assist to turnover ratio below one.
Tell me you don’t understand statistics without telling me you don’t understand statistics. Good grief.
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But subbing Markus for Tyler would not make the Shaka Era look better. That's a crazy take.
Shaka and Nevada would be drooling over the thought of being able to mold someone with Markus' abilities into their offense, and as Markus proved once he wasn't playing along side AR, having one diminutive guard doesn't kill a defensive identity. Put Markus in the position that Tyler has been in/will continue to be in and he's still an AA, put Tyler in Markus' position and he isn't IMO.
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I would have loved seeing Marcus play in an offense that was moving the ball, and that wasn't relying on him to take bad shots to save possessions.
1. Who is Marcus?
2. I guess you missed Markus' freshman season. Seven players averaged between 8.7 and 13.2 ppg, Markus had the highest average but two teammates averaged more shots than he did, he shot a staggering .547 from 3, and he helped an entertaining but flawed team get an NCAA tournament bid.
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That's crazy talk.
Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?
Sure unless he got injured from a tackling dummy...
he was a great player but man if I blindly said to you "here's a BE POY and two time all American and here's a two time first team all USA which would you take?" Nothing else. You'd be a complete fool to say "give me the first conference team guy who couldn't make the ncaa tournament in a below high major conference without a HoF bball player"
Travis' senior year we went 1-5 against teams that'd make the tournament... that's a winner to you Doc? I thought you had high expectations for MU to be successful.
Travis' Junior year we went 4-7 against teams that'd make the tournament. That's much better but if that's Markus' record any year you guys would (and did in your case Doc) crucify him.
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Player A in 2 NCAA Tournament games: 13-34 from the field.
Player B in 2 NCAA Tournament games: 14-37 from the field.
Player A is Wade's performance in Indy. Player B is Markus's two NCAA games. Stop using a two game sample size to rate how great a player was at MU.
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Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.
Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.
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Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.
Well, NBA performance isn't really relevant here. Players like Butch Lee could never really hang on in the NBA either. Are you saying that TD is better than Lee?
I love Travis. I enjoyed watching him play. Yes there wouldn't have been a FF without him, but a lot of the Travis love was the afterglow of the success he had while playing alongside the best player in program history. And that's why people say subjective things like "a winner" because the objective doesn't stack up. (Never mind that without Wade there was only an average amount of winning.)
Markus was a better college basketball player. I know he is associated with a pretty unsatisfactory era in Marquette basketball, but it is obvious that independent observers in those eras believed that was the case.
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Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.
Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.
Travis played in 9 games his final NBA season. But 30 NBA teams wanted him, so he went to Europe instead.
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Well, NBA performance isn't really relevant here. Players like Butch Lee could never really hang on in the NBA .
Injuries (knee) killed his NBA career. Good enough in his day to collect a ring.
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Injuries (knee) killed his NBA career. Good enough in his day to collect a ring.
Sure. As a back up point guard. Let’s not imply he was somehow integral to their success.
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I would retire jerseys for Chones and Markus.
If Kolek maintains his numbers I’d think he’d be a lock too.
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Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.
Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.
The NBA is hardly travis' league but by your logic Juan Anderson and Buycks are both better than Vander, Gardner, Hayward, McNeal, and James. Is that a hill you want to die on?
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The NBA is hardly travis' league but by your logic Juan Anderson and Buycks are both better than Vander, Gardner, Hayward, McNeal, and James. Is that a hill you want to die on?
The NBA banter is fun. Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis. Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK. I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.
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Based on what? Success with Wade?
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The NBA banter is fun. Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis. Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK. I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.
Ah. Shifting goalposts. Now you put the qualifier PG in there.
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The NBA banter is fun. Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis. Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK. I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.
So do you just strongly believe the All American teams in 03-04 & 04-05 were biased against Marquette and that's why Travis didn't get the accolades that a player so much better than Markus would've deserved?
This is a simple thought process, is the Big East > CUSA? Yes that's objectively true. Did Markus win more games against tournament teams than Travis? Yes. Was Markus a Big East POY and was Travis CUSA POY? Yes to Markus, no to Travis. Was Markus a 2 time all American? Yes. Was Travis a 2 time all American? No.
So the take away is simple, in a tougher conference, Markus received higher accolades, with better results. These aren't opinions. You can say you just like Travis better that's fine, I loved watching him in the TBT and in the NBA as well but there's no realistic argument you can make that he was better.
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Diener would have thrived in this system. I don't know that Markus would have. His read on a ball screen was a green light dang near every time.
He was a tremendously gifted scorer and unreal to watch when he was cooking. I wish he had better coaching, and in a lot of ways, I'm sure he does too. The ability to run an offense and create for others is pretty much a necessity at his size to stick in the NBA as a backup guard.
I do find it interesting that what is being used to prop Markus' senior year up (look at the roster, he carried that team!) is being used against Diener's last two years. Travis had to dominate the ball those years because there was no one else who could get a bucket on their own. Novak's game hadn't developed beyond a spot shooter yet. The freshman class flaming out didn't help. A weird two years for sure.
If TK continues his trajectory he'll top this group of three.
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Diener would have thrived in this system. I don't know that Markus would have. His read on a ball screen was a green light dang near every time.
He was a tremendously gifted scorer and unreal to watch when he was cooking. I wish he had better coaching, and in a lot of ways, I'm sure he does too. The ability to run an offense and create for others is pretty much a necessity at his size to stick in the NBA as a backup guard.
I do find it interesting that what is being used to prop Markus' senior year up (look at the roster, he carried that team!) is being used against Diener's last two years. Travis had to dominate the ball those years because there was no one else who could get a bucket on their own. Novak's game hadn't developed beyond a spot shooter yet. The freshman class flaming out didn't help. A weird two years for sure.
If TK continues his trajectory he'll top this group of three.
Difference is that Markus senior year was clearly a tournament team. Not so sure about Travis’
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Sure. As a back up point guard. Let’s not imply he was somehow integral to their success.
Let’s not imply he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA.
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Let’s not imply he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA.
Lol. By stating he played in the NBA, I implied he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA? 😂😂😂
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Lol. By stating he played in the NBA, I implied he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA? 😂😂😂
That’s not what you stated.
The sky is blue.
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That’s not what you stated.
The sky is blue.
I said he couldn’t “hang in the NBA.” (A truth that you can’t refute.) Which also implies he played in the NBA.
Game. Set. Match.
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I said he couldn’t “hang in the NBA.” (A truth that you can’t refute.) Which also implies he played in the NBA.
Game. Set. Match.
You implied he wasn’t good enough.
Water is wet.
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Based on what? Success with Wade?
It's not even close. TD understands basketball...how to run a team. No coach is taking Markus over TD.
Markus understands Markus. Great individual scorer...at 5' 11".
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I am a Diener fan. I am a Markus fan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I saw what I saw and the numbers back it up.
Markus > Travis. Not even that close.
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It's not even close. TD understands basketball...how to run a team. No coach is taking Markus over TD.
Markus understands Markus. Great individual scorer...at 5' 11".
Are you implying that if Markus had played with Wade instead of Sacar Anim he’d have played exactly the same way?
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You implied he wasn’t good enough.
Nope. Read again.
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It's not even close. TD understands basketball...how to run a team. No coach is taking Markus over TD.
Lol. What????
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Nope. Read again.
🙄
Thanks for playing.
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Take the L. Sultan said none of the things you are accusing him of. Sadly, this a common theme on scoop.
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I am a Diener fan. I am a Markus fan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I saw what I saw and the numbers back it up.
Markus > Travis. Not even that close.
Huh? What are we comparing here?
Accolades?
Team success?
Individual success?
Career success?
You can have Markus in the individual stats field. For scoring. In a completely different era of basketball.
Diener: Much more team success. Hung around much longer in the NBA. (Where a minor league basically didn't exist) played a very success full career in Italy.
Howard might be able to achieve relative success to diener overseas. Maybe.
But other then loving high ppg with low team success, it's hard to argue Markus > Diener at any level.
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Take the L. Sultan said none of the things you are accusing him of. Sadly, this a common theme on scoop.
Oh, good gosh, here comes the mope squad.
Edit….sultan said Butch couldn’t hang in the NBA, implying he couldn’t make it. I pointed out his career was limited due to knee injuries, not playing ability.
Sadly, this is a common theme is Scoop.
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Huh? What are we comparing here?
Accolades?
Team success?
Individual success?
Career success?
You can have Markus in the individual stats field. For scoring. In a completely different era of basketball.
Diener: Much more team success. Hung around much longer in the NBA. (Where a minor league basically didn't exist) played a very success full career in Italy.
Howard might be able to achieve relative success to diener overseas. Maybe.
But other then loving high ppg with low team success, it's hard to argue Markus > Diener at any level.
Post Wade, Diener led the team to two .500 or worse conference records in Conference USA and two NIT appearances. In other words, no team success without Wade.
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Post Wade, Diener led the team to two .500 or worse conference records in Conference USA and two NIT appearances. In other words, no team success without Wade.
So about the same level of team success that Howard had?
Note: in the 2005 season ncaa tournament, 2020 marquette would not have made the field (to stop the covid argument)
Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
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Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
Lol wat
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So about the same level of team success that Howard had?
Note: in the 2005 season ncaa tournament, 2020 marquette would not have made the field (to stop the covid argument)
Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
No it isn’t.
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Are you implying that if Markus had played with Wade instead of Sacar Anim he’d have played exactly the same way?
Markus plays the same way no matter who he plays with. It's all he can do.
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Markus plays the same way no matter who he plays with. It's all he can do.
Call me kooky, but I’m gonna say a 12% change in usage & even larger change in %shots indicates the facts don’t align with your claim
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Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
(https://i.imgflip.com/38equs.jpg)
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Oh, good gosh, here comes the mope squad.
Edit….sultan said Butch couldn’t hang in the NBA, implying he couldn’t make it. I pointed out his career was limited due to knee injuries, not playing ability.
Sadly, this is a common theme is Scoop.
Lee couldn’t hang in the NBA. Neither could Markus. Not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.
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Markus plays the same way no matter who he plays with. It's all he can do.
Howard played much differently as a freshman, when he was a role player; and even as a soph, when Rowsey was PG.
If he had a good coach and players like Wade and Jackson in the lineup with him, yes, he’d have played differently - and he’d have played his role damn well.
That last paragraph is my opinion, just as it’s your opinion which coach would have taken which player. Neither can be proven.
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You know the argument is doomed when someone starts trying to claim that early 2000s CUSA is anywhere close to modern BEast
Travis is better than Markus at more things in basketball.
Markus is so much better than Travis in all things scoring. So much better, that it makes him an overall better college player than Travis. That is not a dig on Travis, Markus was just unreal.
2 time All American vs no time All American. #Retire0
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Lee couldn’t hang in the NBA. Neither could Markus. Not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.
Agree with you on Markus.
Butch left the league due to injury. You contend it was ability for Butch too. That’s just speculation on your part. Butch’s injuries are facts.
In a very literal way, your original statement may not be wrong, but again, it was really his knees, not ability.
Not sure why that is so difficult……
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Can Scoop at least agree that Markus is the best 17 year old to EVER play at Marquette?
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Howard played much differently as a freshman, when he was a role player; and even as a soph, when Rowsey was PG.
If he had a good coach and players like Wade and Jackson in the lineup with him, yes, he’d have played differently - and he’d have played his role damn well.
That last paragraph is my opinion, just as it’s your opinion which coach would have taken which player. Neither can be proven.
He plays the same way overseas.
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So about the same level of team success that Howard had?
Note: in the 2005 season ncaa tournament, 2020 marquette would not have made the field (to stop the covid argument)
Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
You have to be trolling right? TD is one of my all time favorites - but Markus was a once in a generation talent. He's 5-10, got the full brunt of the opponents D night in night out, and still hung 40 pt games they grew on tree.
His lack of te success lies 100% at the feet of a coach who couldn't put together/keep together a roster around him. That's why we paid a gazillion dollars to fire said coach.
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So about the same level of team success that Howard had?
Note: in the 2005 season ncaa tournament, 2020 marquette would not have made the field (to stop the covid argument)
Small edit: is the "in conference USA" supposed to be a dig at playing in a worse conference? Because that conference is really just as good as this version of the big east.
And I thought dgles post was insane.
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Agree with you on Markus.
Butch left the league due to injury. You contend it was ability for Butch too. That’s just speculation on your part. Butch’s injuries are facts.
In a very literal way, your original statement may not be wrong, but again, it was really his knees, not ability.
Not sure why that is so difficult……
Lol. Regardless he didn’t hang.
As tower said, take the L.
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Lol. Regardless he didn’t hang.
As tower said, take the L.
Classic Sultan.
That’s not a compliment.
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Peace to all.
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He plays the same way overseas.
1. So?
2. Who is the Wade equivalent on his overseas team?
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Classic Sultan.
That’s not a compliment.
Lol. Resorting to Ziggy-level posting. Better tap out now. Or keep going. It’s entertaining.
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Lol. Resorting to Ziggy-level posting. Better tap out now. Or keep going. It’s entertaining.
Thanks for the rent free space today.
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Hey guys - Diener here. Love Markus to death. Hell of a player and impossible to compare legacies. But no one is beating me one on one. And I mean nobody
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Thanks for the rent free space today.
Thanks for the white flag. Though you could have ended it with minimal damage long ago.
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Hey guys - Diener here. Love Markus to death. Hell of a player and impossible to compare legacies. But no one is beating me one on one. And I mean nobody
lol. Love it.
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Hey guys - Diener here. Love Markus to death. Hell of a player and impossible to compare legacies. But no one is beating me one on one. And I mean nobody
This guy didn't say which diener he was. Could be the DePaul player
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Thanks for the white flag. Though you could have ended it with minimal damage long ago.
👆👆👆👆👆
Classic
You don’t disappoint.
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Classic Sultan.
That’s not a compliment.
Using a technical truth to “prove” something false. A page from the Chico playbook that he’s made his own. The transformation is complete. #Sad
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Hey guys - Diener here. Love Markus to death. Hell of a player and impossible to compare legacies. But no one is beating me one on one. And I mean nobody
Hi Keefe.
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Markus's legacy at MU is tainted by having had to play under the most dense head coach in MU history since Bob Dukeit.
By virtue of being MU's leading all-time scorer, and being a high character kid/good student, Markus absolutely is worthy of having his jersey retired by MU.
That aside, if I could choose whom I'd want to be my PG out of Travis, Markus, and TKO - I'm voting TKO.
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Markus's legacy at MU is tainted by having had to play under the most dense head coach in MU history since Bob Dukeit.
By virtue of being MU's leading all-time scorer, and being a high character kid/good student, Markus absolutely is worthy of having his jersey retired by MU.
That aside, if I could choose whom I'd want to be my PG out of Travis, Markus, and TKO - I'm voting TKO.
Very reasonable take.
The OP wasn't about who was the best PG among Markus and others. It was: Does Marquette's all-time leading scorer, two-time All-American, and 2019 BEPOY - who also led a poorly coached team to 3 NCAAT bids in 4 years - deserve to be honored?
The answer to that question can (and should) be a resounding "Yes." The other discussion is an entirely separate thing.
I'd have no problem with Diener being similarly honored, though his body of work is nowhere near as good as Howard's. And I hope it will be a no-brainer to honor Kolek after this season.
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That aside, if I could choose whom I'd want to be my PG out of Travis, Markus, and TKO - I'm voting TKO.
For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
Lol.
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
Insane asylum has open computing today, hey?
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
Surprised you put him in front of Derrick or Haanif.
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Insane asylum has open computing today, hey?
I get I'm way outside the majority here...and I'm probably pushing a style of basketball or belief of team that I didn't have knowledge to...but you thought he positively effected the game when he wasn't having a good offensive night? Maybe it was coaching...but I didn't see it...even as a decoy.
You ever have discussions about him with former players?
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
This is wild
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I get I'm way outside the majority here...and I'm probably pushing a style of basketball or belief of team that I didn't have knowledge to...but you thought he positively effected the game when he wasn't having a good offensive night? Maybe it was coaching...but I didn't see it...even as a decoy.
You ever have discussions about him with former players?
Look at our season avg off eff numbers with Markus. Then shhhh
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
FIFY
Nothing after acknowledging the original statement was worth typing out.
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Look at our season avg off eff numbers with Markus. Then shhhh
I don't think this guy understands stats. More of an eye test guy.
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OK, I’m convinced. Not only shouldn’t Markus be honored, he should be imprisoned for impersonating a basketball player.
Beyond the silliness … you know how Markus made his teammates “better”? He was the focus of every defense we played, often resulting in wide-open shots for the Hausers, Sacar, Cain, Koby, Bailey, Theo, etc.
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I don't think this guy understands stats. More of an eye test guy.
Completely playing that card here...and admitting to it. I "get" stats at an academically high level...sometimes I don't agree with what the numbers tell me. I had some great professors at MU that pointed out how stats can tell you anything. Again, I'm not saying I'm positive I'm right on this...just really had a problem with Markus from an eye test standpoint. I felt he was a culture killer...probably one of the few that felt the Hauser's were right to leave. I will die on the hill that I'd rather have TKO or TD running the point for me, and I wouldn't have been big on playing Markus off the ball given his size unless I had a big PG. If I were a recruit I wasn't coming to MU to play with Markus. If I were on the team with Sam's abilities...I was exiting like Sam did.
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Completely playing that card here...and admitting to it. I "get" stats at an academically high level...sometimes I don't agree with what the numbers tell me. I had some great professors at MU that pointed out how stats can tell you anything. Again, I'm not saying I'm positive I'm right on this...just really had a problem with Markus from an eye test standpoint. I felt he was a culture killer...probably one of the few that felt the Hauser's were right to leave. I will die on the hill that I'd rather have TKO or TD running the point for me, and I wouldn't have been big on playing Markus off the ball given his size unless I had a big PG. If I were a recruit I wasn't coming to MU to play with Markus. If I were on the team with Sam's abilities...I was exiting like Sam did.
I get your points and don't necessarily disagree with you. However, I think both statements can be true: Markus deserves to have his number retired, but that due to playing for a coach who encouraged Markus to shoot more and pounded into his head that he had the ultimate green light - he didn't make those around him better.
Markus was a shoot first, second and maybe pass as the third option "point guard." I don't blame Sam at all for leaving as he left due to Wojo being the catalyst for Markus not playing team basketball.
I don't think any high level players really would enjoy playing with a guy who takes 37% of your team's shots while on the floor.
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Scoop knows ball
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Scoop knows ball
No doubt.
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I get your points and don't necessarily disagree with you. However, I think both statements can be true: Markus deserves to have his number retired, but that due to playing for a coach who encouraged Markus to shoot more and pounded into his head that he had the ultimate green light - he didn't make those around him better.
Markus was a shoot first, second and maybe pass as the third option "point guard." I don't blame Sam at all for leaving as he left due to Wojo being the catalyst for Markus not playing team basketball.
I don't think any high level players really would enjoy playing with a guy who takes 37% of your team's shots while on the floor.
Yeah Sam really showed how he could thrive in a team system getting .4 more FGA and raising his PPG 1.1. Good thing he finally got to shine in the spotlight.
He sat out a year and still was essentially the same without Markus. Markus' high usage was not at the expense of either Hauser as seen by their UVA and MSU stats.
But agree that both those statements are true Markus made highlights and could literally win a game by himself. But wasn't going to make an average player look great out there.
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Yeah Sam really showed how he could thrive in a team system getting .4 more FGA and raising his PPG 1.1. Good thing he finally got to shine in the spotlight.
He sat out a year and still was essentially the same without Markus. Markus' high usage was not at the expense of either Hauser as seen by their UVA and MSU stats.
But agree that both those statements are true Markus made highlights and could literally win a game by himself. But wasn't going to make an average player look great out there.
Sam was a good to very good college player but the facts are the facts - he was hardly liberated by being on a different team from Markus, either statistically or NCAAT success-wise.
Joey wasn't even an average player for most of his time with Sparty. He was benched by his coach, booed at home by the fans, and was mostly mediocre (or worse) until he was 23 years old and 4 years removed from the evils of Markus Howard.
Being on the court with Markus got each of them numerous wide-open looks every game.
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Markus Howard opens his second campaign in Spain with a ho-hum 29 points and a standing ovation. On the road. From opposing fans. Also tabbed as the league's player of the week.
https://x.com/PaintTouches/status/1706312036366327969?s=20
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Markus Howard opens his second campaign in Spain with a ho-hum 29 points and a standing ovation. On the road. From opposing fans. Also tabbed as the league's player of the week.
https://x.com/PaintTouches/status/1706312036366327969?s=20
Don't Spanish coaches realize what a team killer this guy is?
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Sam was a good to very good college player but the facts are the facts - he was hardly liberated by being on a different team from Markus, either statistically or NCAAT success-wise.
Joey wasn't even an average player for most of his time with Sparty. He was benched by his coach, booed at home by the fans, and was mostly mediocre (or worse) until he was 23 years old and 4 years removed from the evils of Markus Howard.
Being on the court with Markus got each of them numerous wide-open looks every game.
100%
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Yeah Sam really showed how he could thrive in a team system getting .4 more FGA and raising his PPG 1.1. Good thing he finally got to shine in the spotlight.
He sat out a year and still was essentially the same without Markus. Markus' high usage was not at the expense of either Hauser as seen by their UVA and MSU stats.
But agree that both those statements are true Markus made highlights and could literally win a game by himself. But wasn't going to make an average player look great out there.
It's not just the Hausers. Did any of Markus' former teammates suddenly thrive when they transferred to another school? Or when they started playing professionally? Or during the 20-21 season at Marquette? The only one I think has an argument is Cain but I don't think Markus was holding him back.
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It's not just the Hausers. Did any of Markus' former teammates suddenly thrive when they transferred to another school? Or when they started playing professionally? Or during the 20-21 season at Marquette? The only one I think has an argument is Cain but I don't think Markus was holding him back.
Greg at Pitt I guess? Duane at TAMU, but that was hardly Markus holding him back given the age difference.
Of Cheatham, Traci, Symir, Dexter, Koby & Theo, could include Bailey and Frolling in their "pro" careers. I don't think there's one really standout outside of Cain that you could say "they really proved their potential was wasted by Markus hogging the ball" and as you mentioned Markus was hardly the issue in preventing Cain from getting there.
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Furthermore, it didn't seem like Sam was all that unhappy until Joey showed up. I'm not "blaming" Joey, but I think it was clear that Sam was the reason he came to Marquette, and my guess is that when Joey wasn't happy, neither was Sam.
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I can’t wait until the season starts and we have threads about the current team hijacked by Howard/Hauser/Wojo talk. Can’t. Freaking. Wait.
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Sam could've had his jersey up in the rafters right next to Markus's. Instead he became a nobody at both Marquette and UVA. Congrats!
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Sitting next to a Wisconsin alum on a plane this morning. 68 yo guy. Half his family went to MU. MU/Wisconsin basketball rilvalry brought up. All niceties about how fun it is to play each other every year, blah, blah, blah, vanilla stuff. No players mentioned. Then without prompting, “Bo Ryan didn’t want anything to do with the Hausers and their father.” Out of nowhere.
Maybe the family meddled more than they should have and maybe they thought they knew more than they did. Maybe Markus was their scape goat.
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Furthermore, it didn't seem like Sam was all that unhappy until Joey showed up.
Exactly. Markus spen some Holiday time at the Hauser's, and got to sleep in the top bunk. Kicked Joey to the garage who had to sleep on a dog mattress.
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Sitting next to a Wisconsin alum on a plane this morning. 68 yo guy. Half his family went to MU. MU/Wisconsin basketball rilvalry brought up. All niceties about how fun it is to play each other every year, blah, blah, blah, vanilla stuff. No players mentioned. Then without prompting, “Bo Ryan didn’t want anything to do with the Hausers and their father.” Out of nowhere.
Maybe the family meddled more than they should have and maybe they thought they knew more than they did. Maybe Markus was their scape goat.
He didn't want a parent waiting outside the locker room waiting to confront him immediately after a game about shot distribution? Huh, wonder why a head coach would not want that.
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He didn't want a parent waiting outside the locker room waiting to confront him immediately after a game about shot distribution? Huh, wonder why a head coach would not want that.
Source?
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Source?
Someone who I trust much more than anyone who's told me about "the letter."
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Maybe Markus was their scape goat.
Not maybe, and not just the Hausers.
I am amazed by the number of Scoopers taking shots at a kid who worked his arse off for four years, committed fully to everything Marquette, was a two-time All-American, was an outstanding student, and represented the university with class.
It's understandable that some didn't like the way Markus was coached, but to go after him while lauding the likes of Joey Hauser ... really?
I can’t wait until the season starts and we have threads about the current team hijacked by Howard/Hauser/Wojo talk. Can’t. Freaking. Wait.
C'mon, man ... that never happens.
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I get it. Living in Spartan country I heard many Joey rumors. I have heard your story from someone I trust not affiliated with this board. The same with letter stories, but the two people who told me told very different versions. Like a game of telephone.
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He didn't want a parent waiting outside the locker room waiting to confront him immediately after a game about shot distribution? Huh, wonder why a head coach would not want that.
Tim Maymon?
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Careful. Making that comparison can be triggering.
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Careful. Making that comparison can be triggering.
Triggering? Hardly. Asinine? Absolutely.
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Furthermore, it didn't seem like Sam was all that unhappy until Joey showed up. I'm not "blaming" Joey, but I think it was clear that Sam was the reason he came to Marquette, and my guess is that when Joey wasn't happy, neither was Sam.
Wojo's inability to manage the brothers situation will always baffle me. He screwed it up with the Ellensons and then screwed it up again with the Hausers. And this a guy who coached the bigs at Duke while the Plumlees were there. You'd think he'd have learned a thing or two about managing those family dynamics but I guess not.
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Wojo's inability to manage the brothers situation will always baffle me. He screwed it up with the Ellensons and then screwed it up again with the Hausers. And this a guy who coached the bigs at Duke while the Plumlees were there. You'd think he'd have learned a thing or two about managing those family dynamics but I guess not.
Not just brothers but siblings too. Sandy/Natasha, Elliotts, Morrows. Hell, throw in the Wilson cousin legacies too.
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Not just brothers but siblings too. Sandy/Natasha, Elliotts, Morrows. Hell, throw in the Wilson cousin legacies too.
Maybe he’s just not a good college head coach 🤷♂️
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Maybe he’s just not a good college head coach 🤷♂️
No one asked you, Occam.
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For a PG...for guys I've been alive to watch. I'm going TD, TKO, Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchin all over Markus at PG. I understand that's probably a crazy statement, and I love Steph Curry (and that style of play), but Markus was just too one dimensional for me. I had no faith that he was capable of making anyone on the team better...no faith he could make good decisions in clutch times of the game...no faith he wasn't about himself. When he was on it was amazing...when he wasn't it felt like it was equally problematic. Couldn't positively impact the game if he wasn't scoring.
Let's get you back to bed, Grandpa.
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Let's get you back to bed, Grandpa.
Pawz