1. Perez! But the more he shot, the more we needed Dexter.
2. Justin shouldn't have tried to play. Sure wish Oso was available.
3. What can I say about Cain's dribbling that hasn't already been said?
4. Need DJ to be aggressive all the time.
5. Rebounding. (Sad trombone)
6. And poor 3 point shooting. (Sadder trombone). Hit open 3s, different outcome. Cain, Greg.
7. I love Creighton's pick and roll action from all angles. Zegarowki vs Garcia is never going to be a good match up for MU.
8. I thought Dexter would be a useful defender today. I wonder why he sat.
9. The team doesn't quit. But the schedule is now stacked against them.
I really liked the way our last possession went.
9. Tower loves Wojo-Dukiet.
That was just an embarrassing way to end a game.
feels like they played really bad but lost by 3. idk weird feeling from this one. nit bound
Cain looked so steady and confident on that last play.
I knew long wouldn't give it up at the end. Love the way they battled back.
Late game situational basketball continues to escape the staff and team. Once again, on final possession, team has no idea what to do or how to execute.
What does it take to get DJ engaged from the start of the game? Easily the most talented guy on the team but he just goes invisible until late in nearly every game.
Koby...just several awful games in a row.
I don't get the Dexter love.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
Late game situational basketball continues to escape the staff and team. Once again, on final possession, team has no idea what to do or how to execute.
Having a time out would have helped. Having better shooters would have helped more.
Watching Elliot play basketball is just sad at this point
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2021, 06:05:49 PM
1. Perez! But the more he shot, the more we needed Dexter.
2. Justin shouldn't have tried to play. Sure wish Oso was available.
3. What can I say about Cain's dribbling that hasn't already been said?
4. Need DJ to be aggressive all the time.
5. Rebounding. (Sad trombone)
6. And poor 3 point shooting. (Sadder trombone). Hit open 3s, different outcome. Cain, Greg.
7. I love Creighton's pick and roll action from all angles. Zegarowki vs Garcia is never going to be a good match up for MU.
8. I thought Dexter would be a useful defender today. I wonder why he sat.
9. The team doesn't quit. But the schedule is now stacked against them.
The game was more than winnable. I would say our problems are quite severe Tower. This could be a rather painful month or so of MU hoops.
Yes.
Quote from: mumi27 on February 06, 2021, 06:14:08 PM
Watching Elliot play basketball is just sad at this point
Still fine on offense. I mean, yeah he missed a couple of open threes but he has typically been making those. His defense is what is sad now.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Having a time out would have helped. Having better shooters would have helped more.
Would have had one had Wojo not pissed one away seconds before the media timeout.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 06, 2021, 06:15:44 PM
Still fine on offense. I mean, yeah he missed a couple of open threes but he has typically been making those. His defense is what is sad now.
One defensive possession, he was standing hunched at the waist in obvious pain. I wonder what hurts now.
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 06, 2021, 06:16:41 PM
Would have had one had Wojo not pissed one away seconds before the media timeout.
Yes. But he thought he had a group on the floor that needed direction. Burned him in the end.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 06, 2021, 06:15:44 PM
Still fine on offense. I mean, yeah he missed a couple of open threes but he has typically been making those. His defense is what is sad now.
He needs to make every single open 3 he attempts if he wants to not be a net negative on the floor. Marquette plays 5 on 4 on D when he's in the game
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 06, 2021, 06:14:38 PM
Inepuod say our problems are quite severe Tower.
Sounds like Inepuod agrees with several people here!
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Having a time out would have helped. Having better shooters would have helped more.
Having practiced end of game situations in practice would have helped best.
Wish DJ had come here out of high school. Be a really solid second guard next to Markus for a year and get a bit of his always attack mentality.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 06:19:33 PM
Having practiced end of game situations in practice would have helped best.
Executing what you have practiced works better.
Creighton put their best defensive team out there, put all 5 at the foul line, and switched everything.
Cain probably had the best look. But he had missed his last few and had no confidence. Once he passed up the shot, it was always going to be ugly.
A lot of posters probably going on hiatus soon, MU needed this game. Not going to end well again.
Nick Bahe said it perfectly. McDermott's half court offensive sets are fantastic.
Seriously, How many back door plays has MU had the entire year, where a pass is made to a cutter for a layup and dunk? I bet CU had more in the second half than MU has had entire season. The ball movement between them and MU is just a distant memory.
The lack of three point consistency is a major problem. Cain missed four, Elliott missed two, wide open threes in late second that should have changed the game.
Lastly, and again I say, Carton is talented, but he needs to turn on the switch as soon as game begins. Koby is the only option at second guard because everyone behind is just not very good. Today we saw Perez, who started out well and was not bashful, but no thanks, has not played in 17 straight games, strange. Elliott, no. Symir, no. Dexter no minutes and must have done something wrong. Apparent Wojo puts Dex, Symir or Elliott in the DNP house each game, like they take turns.
One of those guys will not be here next year, seen it in the past. The transfer portal will make or break this team next year.
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 06:19:54 PM
Wish DJ had come here out of high school. Be a really solid second guard next to Markus for a year and get a bit of his always attack mentality.
agree. Gotta keep attacking. No hesitation.
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 06, 2021, 06:16:41 PM
Would have had one had Wojo not pissed one away seconds before the media timeout.
Wojo-Dukiet has been passing away a lot since he got here.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
Late game situational basketball continues to escape the staff and team. Once again, on final possession, team has no idea what to do or how to execute.
Generally, I agree but Cain had two wide open 3's. We did force some things as you allude to, but Cain usually will hit that corner 3. Creighton is just a better more mature team.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2021, 06:21:51 PM
Executing what you have practiced works better.
Lol ok, Tower. Keep blaming the players.
What does Wojo have on you? He's a Dookie. We owe him nothing. We've actually given him more than he's ever deserved - 7 years of high major NCAAB head coach salary.
Rebounding was a big problem. Many times, they got the Oreb after a 3, because it was a long rebound, but there were quite a few times I saw nice boxouts by their offensive guys - shouldn't happen.
Good attempted comeback by our guys, they didn't quit. Maybe the two most frustrating plays were the last one of the first half and the last one of the game.
Do we ever:
- see a nice pass for a layup?
- get our big posted up against a guard?
- get our guards on the outside guarded by a big who can't stay with them?
- use the back door?
Well, maybe in practice, I guess.
Looking back (and forward, given the schedule), it seems essentially like a lost year.
It's kind of aggravating that there is this virus going around, because Wojo is going to get a pass on the dismal display of mediocrity that was MU basketball this year. Without Covid, I really don't think he would have done any better, but we would have been closer to making a change.
Courage, mates.
John with a modest and polite 2 boards in 27 minutes...would hate to see his numbers if he didn't "eat weights" ::)
Quote from: Johnny B on February 06, 2021, 06:09:02 PM
feels like they played really bad but lost by 3. idk weird feeling from this one. nit bound
not only would we need to be over .500 to make the NIT, there's not likely going to be an NIT.
Can anyone recall a Senior for MU or anyone else looking as frightened as Jamal Cain did those last few minutes?
Even the announcer commented on the way he "crocodile armed" or "TRex armed" that last corner 3 pt attempt.
This is someone that's supposed to show leadership and I've coached 5th grade girls that had more composure than he did on that final play.
I'm shocked we managed to stay in that. We were bad, but this just reinforced that you can't really trust anyone in this league outside of 'Nova.
Also, while it's a formality, this pretty much puts the dagger in our at-large hopes. Next 5 are on the road. Hard to see a winning record for this year's team.
On the bright side, this makes our win @Creighton look better as far as NET is concerned. Creighton was plummeting down the rankings.
We will likely be underdogs in the final six games (might be favored at DePaul). Million dollar question for Marquette Athletics in six weeks: can MU afford to keep Wojo if the team finishes 9-16 or 10-15? There's zero way they can give him his annual extension, so recruiting is already negatively impacted regardless. It is very likely there will be at least one transfer (it is common occurrence nowadays regardless).
I might be in the minority here, but I just cannot see it (Wojo returning). Next year's team doesn't have any impact blue chip recruits coming. Even with Carton, Garcia and Lewis, there isn't much else to show that it is a proven top-half BE next year and beyond. If Wojo and Co. do return, it will be UGLY next year - and THAT could set the program back another 3-4 years.
Will be fascinating to watch in coming weeks.
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 06, 2021, 07:07:02 PM
On the bright side, this makes our win @Creighton look better as far as NET is concerned. Creighton was plummeting down the rankings.
Given that we were expected to lose, it probably doesn't do that.
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 06, 2021, 07:07:02 PM
On the bright side, this makes our win @Creighton look better as far as NET is concerned. Creighton was plummeting down the rankings.
Actually, because we covered, they'll likely still drop in the NET.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:20 PM
We will likely be underdogs in the final six games (might be favored at DePaul). Million dollar question for Marquette Athletics in six weeks: can MU afford to keep Wojo if the team finishes 9-16 or 10-15? There's zero way they can give him his annual extension, so recruiting is already negatively impacted regardless. It is very likely there will be at least one transfer (it is common occurrence nowadays regardless).
I might be in the minority here, but I just cannot see it (Wojo returning). Next year's team doesn't have any impact blue chip recruits coming. Even with Carton, Garcia and Lewis, there isn't much else to show that it is a proven top-half BE next year and beyond. If Wojo and Co. do return, it will be UGLY next year - and THAT could set the program back another 3-4 years.
Will be fascinating to watch in coming weeks.
Insert comment regarding universities financial struggles.
But seriously - I think the university strongly encourages him to interview elsewhere. Penn State, BC, Fordham etc. That will be best for both parties moving forward.
Wojo will get an extension and will be the coach next year.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 06, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
Wojo will get an extension and will be the coach next year.
Yes. He is certainly deserving.
Quote from: panda on February 06, 2021, 07:19:28 PM
Insert comment regarding universities financial struggles.
I think the university strongly encourages him to interview elsewhere. Penn State, BC, Fordham etc.
Can they make him do it? Oh, please.
Quote from: Boone on February 06, 2021, 06:54:09 PM
John with a modest and polite 2 boards in 27 minutes...would hate to see his numbers if he didn't "eat weights" ::)
Creighton had 11 offensive rebounds because Theo only got one on Creighton misses.
Every know it all on the board repeats the tired extension talk, but I don't think the administration is ignorant to the temperature of the fan base or the on court results.
I wouldn't be shocked if his name is floated around the carousel after the season.
Quote from: panda on February 06, 2021, 07:19:28 PM
Insert comment regarding universities financial struggles.
But seriously - I think the university strongly encourages him to interview elsewhere. Penn State, BC, Fordham etc. That will be best for both parties moving forward.
Wojo could go coach another Jesuit eagle mascot team so it's basically the same thing, right? Let's convince him to do it
- The TO right before the media TO could have cost the game
- There were about 10 possessions where MU moved the ball (it's called passing) for at least part of the possession. First time this has happened at all in several games. Nice to see.
- On the aforementioned possessions, when the ball ends up with McEwen or Theo it just stops and the remainder of the possession is wasted
- 12 possessions ruined by turnovers
- Creighton's ball movement (passing) is pretty to watch. I wonder if Wojo realizes that the reason teams get open shots and layups is because of this? I wonder if he has noticed that it's better than dribbling the ball at the top (or Theo standing in the post, waiting for the double team, thinking about what to do).
- Some timely good play kept MU in the game but it was never enough
- Nice to see Perez get some run. I think Greg/Dex/Perez/Sy are all interchangeable. Guys who can get some minutes but have severe limitations. Sy is the only one who can dribble, but needs to be given a 3 dribble limit on any posession in the half court. Greg just cannot play D. Dex travels every time he touches the ball. Even in the summer pick-up games, his first step is a travel. It's been called a couple times in games already. How Wojo and the staff cannot have corrected that by now is egregious. Perez - jury is still out. Wouldn't mind seeing him get more minutes. Sy - stopgap PG only.
- Theo is getting worse. He's in the way on offense and always out of position on D. 4 years of college ball and still no feel for the game, no vision, no sense of the double team and now little guys are boxing him out and out rebounding him. Again, this is on Wojo. Creighton is a team with only one guy with size and he plays spot minutes. Go Small! Run! Attack! Move!... but he just doesn't see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVnilj3xm5Y
The ever popular press conference.
With the explanation of Perez's playing time.
Quote from: panda on February 06, 2021, 07:33:31 PM
Every know it all on the board repeats the tired extension talk, but I don't think the administration is ignorant to the temperature of the fan base or the on court results.
I wouldn't be shocked if his name is floated around the carousel after the season.
Calling others "know it alls" and posting this is quite ironic.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2021, 07:36:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVnilj3xm5Y
The ever popular press conference.
His comments and reaction to Jose were interesting. Wojo said he was simply out of shape as the reason he hasn't been playing.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 06, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
- Theo is getting worse. He's in the way on offense and always out of position on D. 4 years of college ball and still no feel for the game, no vision, no sense of the double team and now little guys are boxing him out and out rebounding him. Again, this is on Wojo. Creighton is a team with only one guy with size and he plays spot minutes. Go Small! Run! Attack! Move!... but he just doesn't see it.
Not sure this is the game to say Theo is getting worse. Yes, only 2 rebounds and 3 TOs, but also 5-5 from the field with 3 assists (which, by the way, tied for team high), 2 steals, and 3 blocks. Theo is what Theo is, but he certainly has improved this year over the past.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 06, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
Wojo will get an extension and will be the coach next year.
Alright - you are the PR Director for MU Athletics. How do you "sell" that after this season (again, underdogs in at least five of last six games), no tournament wins in seven years, just two NCAAT appearances in 7 years, Hausergate, first MU coach in over two decades with multiple losing seasons, and losing annually to the perceived doormat of the conference (DePaul). What do you highlight to inspire excitement and confidence?
Ready. Go.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 06, 2021, 07:36:35 PM
Calling others "know it alls" and posting this is quite ironic.
Posting my opinion is ironic?
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 06, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
- The TO right before the media TO could have cost the game
- There were about 10 possessions where MU moved the ball (it's called passing) for at least part of the possession. First time this has happened at all in several games. Nice to see.
- On the aforementioned possessions, when the ball ends up with McEwen or Theo it just stops and the remainder of the possession is wasted
- 12 possessions ruined by turnovers
- Creighton's ball movement (passing) is pretty to watch. I wonder if Wojo realizes that the reason teams get open shots and layups is because of this? I wonder if he has noticed that it's better than dribbling the ball at the top (or Theo standing in the post, waiting for the double team, thinking about what to do).
- Some timely good play kept MU in the game but it was never enough
- Nice to see Perez get some run. I think Greg/Dex/Perez/Sy are all interchangeable. Guys who can get some minutes but have severe limitations. Sy is the only one who can dribble, but needs to be given a 3 dribble limit on any posession in the half court. Greg just cannot play D. Dex travels every time he touches the ball. Even in the summer pick-up games, his first step is a travel. It's been called a couple times in games already. How Wojo and the staff cannot have corrected that by now is egregious. Perez - jury is still out. Wouldn't mind seeing him get more minutes. Sy - stopgap PG only.
- Theo is getting worse. He's in the way on offense and always out of position on D. 4 years of college ball and still no feel for the game, no vision, no sense of the double team and now little guys are boxing him out and out rebounding him. Again, this is on Wojo. Creighton is a team with only one guy with size and he plays spot minutes. Go Small! Run! Attack! Move!... but he just doesn't see it.
Well done. Your last paragraph is almost completely wrong. Hard to do.
Quote from: panda on February 06, 2021, 07:33:31 PM
Every know it all on the board repeats the tired extension talk, but I don't think the administration is ignorant to the temperature of the fan base or the on court results.
I wouldn't be shocked if his name is floated around the carousel after the season.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 07:41:53 PM
Alright - you are the PR Director for MU Athletics. How do you "sell" that after this season (again, underdogs in at least five of last six games), no tournament wins in seven years, just two NCAAT appearances in 7 years, Hausergate, first MU coach in over two decades with multiple losing seasons, and losing annually to the perceived doormat of the conference (DePaul). What do you highlight to inspire excitement and confidence?
Ready. Go.
Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.
extend him out to 2027 or whatever you want to tell recruits and dramatically cut the buyout. Not an unheard of tactic with coaches on the hot seat but with an administration not quite ready to pull the trigger.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.
That is the most probable outcome following the season. But the cheaper option would be encouraging him to interview elsewhere for open positions. It would offer him more money most likely and more long term stability.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 06, 2021, 07:41:53 PM
Alright - you are the PR Director for MU Athletics. How do you "sell" that after this season (again, underdogs in at least five of last six games), no tournament wins in seven years, just two NCAAT appearances in 7 years, Hausergate, first MU coach in over two decades with multiple losing seasons, and losing annually to the perceived doormat of the conference (DePaul). What do you highlight to inspire excitement and confidence?
Ready. Go.
You don't sell it at all. You announce it on some Friday and operate as normal.
Quote from: panda on February 06, 2021, 07:55:11 PM
That is the most probable outcome following the season. But the cheaper option would be encouraging him to interview elsewhere for open positions. It would offer him more money most likely and more long term stability.
Sure, and you express a willingness to lower the buyout to get him "closer to home" or something similar. Penn State, Boston College, if he can get one of those, I think you go for it, but that shouldn't stop the university from taking whatever actions they can to make firing him affordable in the coming years if that doesn't work out.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2021, 08:02:09 PM
Sure, and you express a willingness to lower the buyout to get him "closer to home" or something similar. Penn State, Boston College, if he can get one of those, I think you go for it, but that shouldn't stop the university from taking whatever actions they can to make firing him affordable in the coming years if that doesn't work out.
Yep - Totally agree
extend wojo eh tower?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 06, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
Wojo will get an extension and will be the coach next year.
Might as well shove a glass rod up our johnson and hit it repeatedly with a hammer, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 06, 2021, 08:28:05 PM
Might as well shove a glass rod up our johnson and hit it repeatedly with a hammer, aina?
Hey if that's what you're into, I won't judge.
In previous years, a February matchup against a conference opponent ranked 15th in the country would've been a huge deal for the fanbase. This past week was a little disturbing in that respect. There was basically zero discourse about the game or college basketball in general, and now that 98% of the board thinks Wojo should be gone, the arguments and discussions about that have died down, too. And the people who post on this board are the diehards. Imagine how disinterested the casual fans are right now.
Regarding the game, it's sad because it doesn't seem like anyone on here expected Marquette to win, or really cared that we lost. We've just accepted it as an inevitability at this point. I think Creighton is overrated and will falter in the Tournament once again. They're just above average, not great by any means, and yet it still didn't feel like we were ever going to win. We're going to drop into the triple digits in the NET rankings tomorrow, and the Badgers, who were our best win, lost today and have two tough games next week. They may not even finish the season in the top 25.
The program itself, not the team, is still in good shape. Huge recruiting budget, NBA arena, first rate practice facility. But a few more years of suckage like this without a regime change and there's no telling what will happen to the fan base. And if the fan base starts to dwindle, that will have a domino effect on the program and its resources.
Quote from: Jockey on February 06, 2021, 07:29:16 PM
Creighton had 11 offensive rebounds because Theo only got one on Creighton misses.
Astounding stat. He still hasn't figured out basic fundamental rebounding and not trying to block everything.
This team has some roster issues but is absolutely underachieving.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.
There could be a lot of coaching turnover in the Big East over the next three years. Coaches with contracts expiring over the upcoming seasons include two in 2022-23 (Jordan, Ewing) and four in 2023-24 (Leitao, Woj, Willard, and Steele)
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 06:19:54 PM
Wish DJ had come here out of high school. Be a really solid second guard next to Markus for a year and get a bit of his always attack mentality.
You can thank Markus for that. We were not able to recruit a single other good guard or wing the entire time he was here, and it's showing now.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:23:31 PM
You can thank Markus for that. We were not able to recruit a single other good guard or wing the entire time he was here, and it's showing now.
Yeah. Markus's fault. Cancerous and we still feel the effects even after he is gone.
Lol.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 06, 2021, 07:41:39 PM
Not sure this is the game to say Theo is getting worse. Yes, only 2 rebounds and 3 TOs, but also 5-5 from the field with 3 assists (which, by the way, tied for team high), 2 steals, and 3 blocks. Theo is what Theo is, but he certainly has improved this year over the past.
Agree. The main reason Theo has lousy rebound numbers is that our weird and ineffective D very often has Theo guarding somebody 15-20' from the rim.
The rebound problem is (probably our statistical leader) DG, who has problems establishing position.
I would think as he develops and bulks up, that would change.
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 09:25:02 PM
Yeah. Markus's fault. Cancerous and we still feel the effects even after he is gone.
Lol.
We *are* still feeling the effects of Markus' time here, though. It's why we have so little talent outside of Lewis, Carton, and Garcia. Who were we able to recruit to play with Markus that's any good? Maybe Koby? You say "lol" but the proof is in the pudding after watching the team this season.
Since this season is just another Lost Season can Wojo please reduce Koby's minutes, I find him difficult to watch, jump shot is awful most of the time, I beg for any of the other 4 players on the floor to shoot instead of him, I respect his effort but would love for some magic-spell to get Dawson to take all his shots from here on out
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:33:02 PM
We *are* still feeling the effects of Markus' time here, though. It's why we have so little talent outside of Lewis, Carton, and Garcia. Who were we able to recruit to play with Markus that's any good? Maybe Koby? You say "lol" but the proof is in the pudding after watching the team this season.
You're letting Wojo off easy. I would suggest that Koby was more of the issue than Markus.
Quote from: muwarrior97 on February 06, 2021, 09:35:51 PM
Since this season is just another Lost Season can Wojo please reduce Koby's minutes, I find him difficult to watch, jump shot is awful most of the time, I beg for any of the other 4 players on the floor to shoot instead of him, I respect his effort but would love for some magic-spell to get Dawson to take all his shots from here on out
Uh...OK.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:23:31 PM
You can thank Markus for that. We were not able to recruit a single other good guard or wing the entire time he was here, and it's showing now.
Genius. We should never recruit anyone as good as Markus, who wound up in the top 30 or so career college scorers in history. Or if we do, we should injure them so that we can get recruits that might be a fraction of what he was. Plus, it's weird that he would affect recruiting at both guard and wing.
I've never seen a collection of malcontents to rival this. Recruit after recruit fails to meet their standard for one reason or another. Then when we strike the mother lode (that's Markus, for those of you who are slow), we blame him (a success) for our subsequent failures. Pathetic. Sad.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:23:31 PM
You can thank Markus for that. We were not able to recruit a single other good guard or wing the entire time he was here, and it's showing now.
u really implying recruiting markus was wrong?
Quote from: Johnny B on February 06, 2021, 09:44:09 PM
u really implying recruiting markus was wrong?
Of course not. I'm implying that his absolute free reign and ultimate green light while he was here were wrong. It caused dissension in the locker room and on the court during two different seasons (Koby and Joey). Markus was a great player but Wojo allowing him to do whatever he wanted was damaging to the program.
The TV people made a big deal about the fact that the parents/family were at the game.
They pointed out that most of them had not seen their kids in six months.
I know I'm old and not welded to my cell, but every single time they showed the families, they were all on their phones, not watching the game. Maybe they have educated opinions about the product MU is putting out.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on February 06, 2021, 09:55:06 PM
but every single time they showed the families, they were all on their phones, not watching the game.
Every single time they showed the families was also a timeout.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:48:19 PM
Of course not. I'm implying that his absolute free reign and ultimate green light while he was here were wrong. It caused dissension in the locker room and on the court during two different seasons (Koby and Joey). Markus was a great player but Wojo allowing him to do whatever he wanted was damaging to the program.
Don't you know criticizing Markus is not allowed and punishable by death? Think about all of the titles and post-season success he brought us.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 06, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
Don't you know criticizing Markus is not allowed and punishable by death? Think about all of the titles and post-season success he brought us.
Yep. I absolutely do not think his number should be retired, but if Wojo is still here next year, I wouldn't be surprised if they rushed to do it.
I heard Nick Bahe (I believe) suggest that Creighton may have the potential as a "final four sleeper."
This years team is soft is is more likely a first round exit than going on a 4 game tournament win streak.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on February 06, 2021, 09:43:47 PM
Genius. We should never recruit anyone as good as Markus, who wound up in the top 30 or so career college scorers in history. Or if we do, we should injure them so that we can get recruits that might be a fraction of what he was. Plus, it's weird that he would affect recruiting at both guard and wing.
I've never seen a collection of malcontents to rival this. Recruit after recruit fails to meet their standard for one reason or another. Then when we strike the mother lode (that's Markus, for those of you who are slow), we blame him (a success) for our subsequent failures. Pathetic. Sad.
Thank you. Well said.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:48:19 PM
Of course not. I'm implying that his absolute free reign and ultimate green light while he was here were wrong. It caused dissension in the locker room and on the court during two different seasons (Koby and Joey). Markus was a great player but Wojo allowing him to do whatever he wanted was damaging to the program.
That's not what you said. Your first words literally were, "You can thank Markus."
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2021, 10:50:10 PM
I heard Nick Bahe (I believe) suggest that Creighton may have the potential as a "final four sleeper."
This years team is soft is is more likely a first round exit than going on a 4 game tournament win streak.
Not a chance. I don't think any BE team is final four material this season.
As Mike Ditka said about the 1989 Bears midway through the season: I dont think this team will win another game this season.
I just think the team, while it tries, is lost. The games they used to win in the last minute, they lose. The offense is woefully inconsistent, turnovers are killing us and the defense, while improved, still has a long way to go.
It is hard to invest a Saturday with this team. It has talent but has yet to figure out how to play as a team. There are shooting problems, I will admit, but there is no part of our team%u2019s game that is fundamentally solid.
I hope Wojo and the guys can turn it around, but this team is going nowhere and without a major off-season overhaul, next year has too high a probability of being a lost cause.
Creighton and Nova have a major size issue and the Jays are poor defensively. Realistically both teams have a small margin of error to make the F4.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 06, 2021, 11:08:03 PM
Not a chance. I don't think any BE team is final four material this season.
Agreed. This is the year a 8/9/10/11 seed big ten team (gag) makes a run.
The Minnesotas and Illinois may go further than Garza
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 06, 2021, 11:43:02 PM
Agreed. This is the year a 8/9/10/11 seed big ten team (gag) makes a run.
The Minnesotas and Illinois may go further than Garza
You might be right about a couple of 8-9-10-11 seeds making a run.
Illinois is not going to be an 8-9-10-11, though. Wouldn't be stunning at all if Illinois made the Final Four.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2021, 10:52:50 PM
That's not what you said. Your first words literally were, "You can thank Markus."
Fair point, I worded it poorly in the heat of the moment. It was less Markus, and more Wojo allowing Markus to do what he did. Either way, there is a huge drop off talent-wise after Garcia, Carton, and Lewis, and I believe Markus' usage during his time here is the reason why. We simply were not able to recruit any other high level talent while he was here.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2021, 11:49:28 PM
You might be right about a couple of 8-9-10-11 seeds making a run.
Illinois is not going to be an 8-9-10-11, though. Wouldn't be stunning at all if Illinois made the Final Four.
Illinois seems to have pretty good balance. They may be the most dangerous team in the B14. Their center absolutely abused Potter and Reevers the few minutes I watched today.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 06, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
Don't you know criticizing Markus is not allowed and punishable by death? Think about all of the titles and post-season success he brought us.
Feel free to criticize Markus all you want. Also feel free to look like an idiot if you're going to claim it's Markus's fault that Marquette doesn't have talent on its roster. This is like Lenny claiming Markus is why Brendan left Marquette early. Because, you know, Brendan knew he'd never get any shots at Marquette because Markus would get all the shots...even though Markus had no eligibility remaining.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 10:46:43 PM
Yep. I absolutely do not think his number should be retired, but if Wojo is still here next year, I wouldn't be surprised if they rushed to do it.
We retired Doc Rivers's jersey but we shouldn't retire the jersey of the all team leading scorer in the entire history of the Big East?
This place gets really whacky sometimes.
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 11:55:36 PM
This is like Lenny claiming Markus is why Brendan left Marquette early. Because, you know, Brendan knew he'd never get any shots at Marquette because Markus would get all the shots...even though Markus had no eligibility remaining.
Source? Please print the post in which I said Brendan Bailey left Marquette because Markus Howard would be stealing his shots in a season after Markus had used up all of his eligibility. You're a liar.
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 11:55:36 PM
This place gets really whacky sometimes.
Sure does. Never whackier than the time somebody claimed Coach Wojo would turn Marquette into Duke North. Unreal, huh?
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 11:55:36 PM
Feel free to criticize Markus all you want. Also feel free to look like an idiot if you're going to claim it's Markus's fault that Marquette doesn't have talent on its roster. This is like Lenny claiming Markus is why Brendan left Marquette early. Because, you know, Brendan knew he'd never get any shots at Marquette because Markus would get all the shots...even though Markus had no eligibility remaining.
We retired Doc Rivers's jersey but we shouldn't retire the jersey of the all team leading scorer in the entire history of the Big East?
This place gets really whacky sometimes.
So because we made a bad decision when we retired Doc Rivers' number, we should make more? And being the all time leading scorer of a team, or even a conference, isn't what it used to be. Back when every player used to stay 3-4 years in college, yes, it was quite an accomplishment. But now the only players who become all-time leading scorers are guys like Markus, players who are too undersized for their position to leave for the NBA. The fact that Lawrence Moten was the Big East's all time leading scorer before Markus tells you everything you need to know about that particular achievement. Hell, Alando Tucker is Wisconsin's all time leading scorer. He was a really good college player, but not exactly a Brendan Bailey-style all-timer.
And who, exactly, did we bring in during Markus' time who's any good? You can't answer the question. I'm sure you've realized that the talent drop off after Carton, Garcia, and Lewis is massive and a big reason why the team sucks this year. We don't have any good players who've been in the program for more than a year. I wonder why that is? What was happening on the court the last three years that might've made high level recruits look elsewhere?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 07, 2021, 12:16:11 AM
Source? Please print the post in which I said Brendan Bailey left Marquette because Markus Howard would be stealing his shots in a season after Markus had used up all of his eligibility. You're a liar.
The source is you lol. I don't know what printing this post will do, but I'll quote it for you and save the paper. I guess if you want to DM me an address to send it to I can print it off.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 02, 2020, 03:29:47 PM
The Hausers left to play in better programs led by better coaches. They were the only two of Markus's teammates who had that opportunity. Where were Theo or Ed going? Sacar? Bailey? Cain? Elliot? Answer: nowhere, though Ed eventually quit and Bailey left early to go "pro" (LOL).
Bottom line: nobody likes standing around watching someone dominate the ball. Markus (whether by Wojo's design or his inability to control his best player) dominated it like no other Power 6 player in the history of the statistic. IMHO, that's neither the best way to win games or the best way to keep a team together. Back to back seasons in which we collapsed when it counted most support that opinion.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 07, 2021, 12:31:05 AM
So because we made a bad decision when we retired Doc Rivers' number, we should make more? And being the all time leading scorer of a team, or even a conference, isn't what it used to be. Back when every player used to stay 3-4 years in college, yes, it was quite an accomplishment. But now the only players who become all-time leading scorers are guys like Markus, players who are too undersized for their position to leave for the NBA. The fact that Lawrence Moten was the Big East's all time leading scorer before Markus tells you everything you need to know about that particular achievement. Hell, Alando Tucker is Wisconsin's all time leading scorer. He was a really good college player, but not exactly a Brendan Bailey-style all-timer.
And who, exactly, did we bring in during Markus' time who's any good? You can't answer the question. I'm sure you've realized that the talent drop off after Carton, Garcia, and Lewis is massive and a big reason why the team sucks this year. We don't have any good players who've been in the program for more than a year. I wonder why that is? What was happening on the court the last three years that might've made high level recruits look elsewhere?
So you're going to double down on this idea that Markus is why Marquette isn't very good right now?
Marquette's class of 2021 doesn't look much different than most of any recruiting classes Wojo has brought in in the past. But I'm sure guys are scared Markus is somehow going to come back and eat up all their shots.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 01:04:16 AM
So you're going to double down on this idea that Markus is why Marquette isn't very good right now?
Marquette's class of 2021 doesn't look much different than most of any recruiting classes Wojo has brought in in the past. But I'm sure guys are scared Markus is somehow going to come back and eat up all their shots.
You still didn't answer the question of who we brought in while Markus was here who's any good.
It is similar to what happened with Henry. Players today aren't going to come to a place where there is already a star at their position. They want to play immediately. Wojo missed out on forwards because recruits thought Henry, averaging 32 mpg and nearly 20/10, was going to be at MU for more than one year. Wojo did not land another elite guard while Markus was here because they new Markus was a first team all american, was going to play 33 mpg and score 25+. Elite guards don't want to play second fiddle. This is human nature.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 12:57:47 AM
The source is you lol. I don't know what printing this post will do, but I'll quote it for you and save the paper. I guess if you want to DM me an address to send it to I can print it off.
Ha, ha. My point was not that Bailey would have to continue playing with Markus if he stayed. My point was that after 2 years of playing for a coach who handed the ball to Markus and told everyone else to get out of the way he had had it. He (IMO) grew dispirited and left to play "pro" ball, even though it was obvious he was nowhere ready. And of course that's clear if you read the entire thread - I even concede later that Bailey leaving because of frustration over Wojo's style is an observation/opinion that some might find an overreach.
I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but for some reason your "thing" has never been honest conversation or debate. You'd rather pull stuff out of context and intentionally misconstrue. You do it with everyone who disagrees with you on any topic - politics, hoops, the Milwaukee Brewers, it doesn't matter. You look for fights and you fight dirty and dishonestly.
Spot on, Lenny Man.
Woj figured the only way he had a chance here was to hook himself up to what little talent he brought in. Was never able to build a complete team. Ended up citing the bed when the Hauser's had more stones than Woj, hey?
Quote from: Boone on February 06, 2021, 06:54:09 PM
John with a modest and polite 2 boards in 27 minutes...would hate to see his numbers if he didn't "eat weights" ::)
And I remember one of those two Brando commented the easiest board he'll get all day because the carom went right in his lap. He was getting beat all day off the dribble that directly led to baskets. The ridiculous elbow to the face that was completely intentional.
I used to like and support John. Now I think he's just a basic a$$hole who's checked out. And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.
Quote from: tower912 on February 07, 2021, 07:02:30 AM
It is similar to what happened with Henry. Players today aren't going to come to a place where there is already a star at their position. They want to play immediately. Wojo missed out on forwards because recruits thought Henry, averaging 32 mpg and nearly 20/10, was going to be at MU for more than one year. Wojo did not land another elite guard while Markus was here because they new Markus was a first team all american, was going to play 33 mpg and score 25+. Elite guards don't want to play second fiddle. This is human nature.
Then how does Jay Wright at Nova do it year in and year out?
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on February 07, 2021, 07:59:02 AM
And I remember one of those two Brando commented the easiest board he'll get all day because the carom went right in his lap. He was getting beat all day off the dribble that directly led to baskets. The ridiculous elbow to the face that was completely intentional.
I used to like and support John. Now I think he's just a basic a$$hole who's checked out. And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.
Wow. That's harsh.
I don't see him checked out at all. He is an undersized and limited player who is prone to being undisciplined. (Evidence...his continued hunting for blocks and his flagrant foul.) Whether or not that's lack of coaching or him not listening is not really important to this debate.
But this is who John is. He's never been a big rebounder. If you go back in his history, he has numerous BE games where you will find "1" or "2" in the total rebound column.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on February 07, 2021, 07:59:02 AM
I used to like and support John. Now I think he's just a basic a$$hole who's checked out. And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.
Everyone knows why your opinion of Theo changed and it has nothing to do with his performance on the court.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 06, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.
Perhaps MU should declare bankruptcy.
Just like Villanova, Creighton ran their pick and rolls specifically to pull Theo from the basket. Once they saw MU was switching and not hedging and that the weakside defenders were not helping, they exploited it. Theo on guards, DJ guarding the post, etc.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on February 07, 2021, 07:59:02 AM
And I remember one of those two Brando commented the easiest board he%u2019ll get all day because the carom went right in his lap. He was getting beat all day off the dribble that directly led to baskets. The ridiculous elbow to the face that was completely intentional.
I used to like and support John. Now I think he%u2019s just a basic a$$hole who%u2019s checked out. And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.
He's always been a fundamentally poor rebounder and one on one defender. Early in his career he was forced to help defend and protect the rim more, but trying to block every shot is not intelligent basketball. He's also way too upright and has no idea how to use his leverage, avoid fouls, or perform simple box outs. This is a kid with talent despite dealing with a myriad of nagging injuries. He's also a kid who celebrates a dunk when the score is 6-4 and has countless mental errors on a consistent basis.
It's a misnomer that blocks or steals indicates a great defender. That's not necessarily true. When you constantly gamble and are caught out of position the result is quite often an easy deuce for the opponent. Theo has seemingly never understood this or apparently has never been taught properly. It's sad because he should easily be a 10 and 10 guy and an excellent college big. Yesterday is a game he and DG should have dominated frankly.
Quote from: tower912 on February 07, 2021, 07:02:30 AM
It is similar to what happened with Henry. Players today aren't going to come to a place where there is already a star at their position. They want to play immediately. Wojo missed out on forwards because recruits thought Henry, averaging 32 mpg and nearly 20/10, was going to be at MU for more than one year. Wojo did not land another elite guard while Markus was here because they new Markus was a first team all american, was going to play 33 mpg and score 25+. Elite guards don't want to play second fiddle. This is human nature.
Michigan has two 5-stars coming in; three 4-stars and a 3-star. Michigan is projected to have zero lottery picks this summer and zero first rounders drafted. And Michigan is a top-10 team in the country. Villanova has yet another top-10 recruiting class coming in, without any one-and-done players or projected lottery picks. They, too, are a top-10 team.
Disregarding the blue bloods (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.), Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Virginia, Gonzaga, Ohio State and countless other consistently competitive (i.e. tournament team) programs do not seem to have the problem of recruiting talent around talent.
When you have a system/program in-place, the players are interchangeable while the success becomes constant. If the excuse is we can't get players to play with our top guys, that is yet another red flag/indictment on the leadership of the basketball program, and not the kids who refuse to play with other top players.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 08:15:23 AM
Wow. That's harsh.
I don't see him checked out at all. He is an undersized and limited player who is prone to being undisciplined. (Evidence...his continued hunting for blocks and his flagrant foul.) Whether or not that's lack of coaching or him not listening is not really important to this debate.
But this is who John is. He's never been a big rebounder. If you go back in his history, he has numerous BE games where you will find "1" or "2" in the total rebound column.
Extremely harsh. Frankly he's being asked to do too much this year. Couple that with playing injured and you get these games.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 07, 2021, 08:22:20 AM
Michigan has two 5-stars coming in; three 4-stars and a 3-star. Michigan is projected to have zero lottery picks this summer and zero first rounders drafted. And Michigan is a top-10 team in the country. Villanova has yet another top-10 recruiting class coming in, without any one-and-done players or projected lottery picks. They, too, are a top-10 team.
Disregarding the blue bloods (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.), Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Virginia, Gonzaga, Ohio State and countless other consistently competitive (i.e. tournament team) programs do not seem to have the problem of recruiting talent around talent.
When you have a system/program in-place, the players are interchangeable while the success becomes constant. If the excuse is we can't get players to play with our top guys, that is yet another red flag/indictment on the leadership of the basketball program, and not the kids who refuse to play with other top players.
Good recruiters show players the role they can play within the team and how that role can grow and develop over time. Using Markus or Henry as reasons for recruiting misses is more of an indictment of Wojo than anything.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 07, 2021, 07:15:36 AM
Ha, ha. My point was not that Bailey would have to continue playing with Markus if he stayed. My point was that after 2 years of playing for a coach who handed the ball to Markus and told everyone else to get out of the way he had had it. He (IMO) grew dispirited and left to play "pro" ball, even though it was obvious he was nowhere ready. And of course that's clear if you read the entire thread - I even concede later that Bailey leaving because of frustration over Wojo's style is an observation/opinion that some might find an overreach.
I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but for some reason your "thing" has never been honest conversation or debate. You'd rather pull stuff out of context and intentionally misconstrue. You do it with everyone who disagrees with you on any topic - politics, hoops, the Milwaukee Brewers, it doesn't matter. You look for fights and you fight dirty and dishonestly.
Lol. So I'm a liar...but then I go and quote exactly what you asked me to "print," the full post, so nothing to take out of context, and now I'm fighting dirty.
Hilarious stuff Lenny. Someone said you were like cheeks the other day. They certainly weren't wrong.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 07, 2021, 08:21:20 AM
He's always been a fundamentally poor rebounder and one on one defender. Early in his career he was forced to help defend and protect the rim more, but trying to block every shot is not intelligent basketball. He's also way too upright and has no idea how to use his leverage, avoid fouls, or perform simple box outs. This is a kid with talent despite dealing with a myriad of nagging injuries. He's also a kid who celebrates a dunk when the score is 6-4 and has countless mental errors on a consistent basis.
It's a misnomer that blocks or steals indicates a great defender. That's not necessarily true. When you constantly gamble and are caught out of position the result is quite often an easy deuce for the opponent. Theo has seemingly never understood this or apparently has never been taught properly. It's sad because he should easily be a 10 and 10 guy and an excellent college big. Yesterday is a game he and DG should have dominated frankly.
I thought Wojo coached bigs while at Duke.
Kinda, he told folks where to put big boxes of K's money, hey?
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 06, 2021, 06:35:59 PM
Lol ok, Tower. Keep blaming the players.
What does Wojo have on you? He's a Dookie. We owe him nothing. We've actually given him more than he's ever deserved - 7 years of high major NCAAB head coach salary.
Look, I'm firmly in the Nojo camp now, but sometimes the players have to produce. We missed several FTs and wide open 3s in the last 5 minutes or so. They were good looks and the guys we want to be taking them took them. I blame the season on Wojo, but the players were put in a position to win last night and did not get it done.
Still on Woj. He wasn't able to recruit talent needed to win on this level. At most, he has 3 BE players on this roster, hey?
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 06, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
- The TO right before the media TO could have cost the game
- There were about 10 possessions where MU moved the ball (it's called passing) for at least part of the possession. First time this has happened at all in several games. Nice to see.
- On the aforementioned possessions, when the ball ends up with McEwen or Theo it just stops and the remainder of the possession is wasted
- 12 possessions ruined by turnovers
- Creighton's ball movement (passing) is pretty to watch. I wonder if Wojo realizes that the reason teams get open shots and layups is because of this? I wonder if he has noticed that it's better than dribbling the ball at the top (or Theo standing in the post, waiting for the double team, thinking about what to do).
- Some timely good play kept MU in the game but it was never enough
- Nice to see Perez get some run. I think Greg/Dex/Perez/Sy are all interchangeable. Guys who can get some minutes but have severe limitations. Sy is the only one who can dribble, but needs to be given a 3 dribble limit on any posession in the half court. Greg just cannot play D. Dex travels every time he touches the ball. Even in the summer pick-up games, his first step is a travel. It's been called a couple times in games already. How Wojo and the staff cannot have corrected that by now is egregious. Perez - jury is still out. Wouldn't mind seeing him get more minutes. Sy - stopgap PG only.
- Theo is getting worse. He's in the way on offense and always out of position on D. 4 years of college ball and still no feel for the game, no vision, no sense of the double team and now little guys are boxing him out and out rebounding him. Again, this is on Wojo. Creighton is a team with only one guy with size and he plays spot minutes. Go Small! Run! Attack! Move!... but he just doesn't see it.
Creighton's ball movement is fun to watch, but it and the back door cuts are made possible by the fact that almost all of their players are a threat from anywhere on the floor. That's because McDermott has a system and he recruits to it. Wojo needs to do that. When you are not going to get the very top-flight players, it is best to recruit to some philosophy besides getting the best puzzle pieces you can and see if you can fit them together later.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 07, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
Still on Woj. He wasn't able to recruit talent needed to win on this level. At most, he has 3 BE players on this roster, hey?
Can't argue with that. though I was referring to his game coaching.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 06, 2021, 09:48:19 PM
Of course not. I'm implying that his absolute free reign and ultimate green light while he was here were wrong. It caused dissension in the locker room and on the court during two different seasons (Koby and Joey). Markus was a great player but Wojo allowing him to do whatever he wanted was damaging to the program.
I nominate "Wojo let him do 'whatever he wanted' " as the greatest Scoop meme of all time.
It's really this simple: Wojo sells the program to standout guards by giving them a lot of freedom to initiate offense. One of those standout guards had the sickest step-back move ever seen in a Marquette uniform. That move was designed to operate best while closely guarded. Markus hit a ridiculously high percentage of these step-back 3s.
The problem was when he missed a couple of these most difficult shots, sometimes at crucial points in games, players who know better allowed themselves to depart from a team mentality and become critical of Markus. I know it's hard for people to grasp that a team mentality is not the same for every team. 99 teams out of 100 would not allow their lead guard to take such closely-guarded threes at will. Markus' absurd talent, especially with this ultra-specific skill shot, made the step-back one of the true keys of our offense. Offended players took their beef to the coach, who stood by his star and his system, as most coaches would. Those same offended players didn't comprehend how many open looks they got due to their "selfish" teammate.
Don't accuse me of being a Markus apologist. I have said over and over how much I loved watching the defense-oriented KO teams. My favorite MU player of all time is Tony Miller, whose overall methodical game and style of play is almost diametrically opposed to a high-octane Star like Markus. When this season started on such a promising note, I was gleeful at watching so many guys getting involved on offense, and felt true team basketball was emerging. I bring this up because Markus was exactly who he had to be, for THAT team to have the best chance to win every single night. I don't begrudge him the fact that going forward, we would be playing more of a traditional "team" concept.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on February 06, 2021, 09:43:47 PM
Genius. We should never recruit anyone as good as Markus, who wound up in the top 30 or so career college scorers in history. Or if we do, we should injure them so that we can get recruits that might be a fraction of what he was. Plus, it's weird that he would affect recruiting at both guard and wing.
I've never seen a collection of malcontents to rival this. Recruit after recruit fails to meet their standard for one reason or another. Then when we strike the mother lode (that's Markus, for those of you who are slow), we blame him (a success) for our subsequent failures. Pathetic. Sad.
No, you recruit someone like Markus but don't give him free reign to do whatever he wants. I know if I were a blue chipper, I would not go to a school where the primary ball handler shoots whenever he wants and is not interested in getting other players involved. Great players have many viable options and don't want to play with a player like that. I think it did set us back, as good as Markus was. It still goes back to Wojo and how he runs his program.
Quote from: tower912 on February 07, 2021, 08:20:56 AM
Just like Villanova, Creighton ran their pick and rolls specifically to pull Theo from the basket. Once they saw MU was switching and not hedging and that the weakside defenders were not helping, they explored it. Theo on guards, DJ guarding the post, etc.
Yep. MU's scheme was exploited. MU killed Creighton on the boards in their first game. Losing PIP 42-28. Theo was a +10 on a the court and not sitting with foul trouble in the 2nd, MU was effective. Creighton built their lead into double digits when Wojo sat Theo after his third foul.
Do people realize MU is 2nd in the nation at defending at the rim? There are a few reasons for that, despite having the worst defense in the BE. One is Theo.
Coaches counter. They are trying to get Theo out of the game with fouls (Bishop running down court and stopping suddenly so Theo would run into him). Or when in, they are trying to draw him out of the paint. With Lewis hobbled, MU was more vulnerable.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on February 07, 2021, 08:48:30 AM
I nominate "Wojo let him do 'whatever he wanted' " as the greatest Scoop meme of all time.
It's really this simple: Wojo sells the program to standout guards by giving them a lot of freedom to initiate offense. One of those standout guards had the sickest step-back move ever seen in a Marquette uniform. That move was designed to operate best while closely guarded. Markus hit a ridiculously high percentage of these step-back 3s.
The problem was when he missed a couple of these most difficult shots, sometimes at crucial points in games, players who know better allowed themselves to depart from a team mentality and become critical of Markus. I know it's hard for people to grasp that a team mentality is not the same for every team. 99 teams out of 100 would not allow their lead guard to take such closely-guarded threes at will. Markus' absurd talent, especially with this ultra-specific skill shot, made the step-back one of the true keys of our offense. Offended players took their beef to the coach, who stood by his star and his system, as most coaches would. Those same offended players didn't comprehend how many open looks they got due to their "selfish" teammate.
Don't accuse me of being a Markus apologist. I have said over and over how much I loved watching the defense-oriented KO teams. My favorite MU player of all time is Tony Miller, whose overall methodical game and style of play is almost diametrically opposed to a high-octane Star like Markus. When this season started on such a promising note, I was gleeful at watching so many guys getting involved on offense, and felt true team basketball was emerging. I bring this up because Markus was exactly who he had to be, for THAT team to have the best chance to win every single night. I don't begrudge him the fact that going forward, we would be playing more of a traditional "team" concept.
Yeah, but the problem is, Markus was here for four years, and during that whole time, we were not able to recruit talent to play alongside him. The team we have now is the direct result of that. As 4ever said, we have 3 Big East level players, none of whom was in the program last year. It's an indictment of Wojo, not Markus. But it's a big part of why we sit at 102 in the NET rankings this morning.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 07, 2021, 08:54:46 AM
Yep. MU's scheme was exploited. MU killed Creighton on the boards in their first game. Losing PIP 42-28. Theo was a +10 on a the court and not sitting with foul trouble in the 2nd, MU was effective. Creighton built their lead into double digits when Wojo sat Theo after his third foul.
Do people realize MU is 2nd in the nation at defending at the rim? There are a few reasons for that, despite having the worst defense in the BE. One is Theo.
Coaches counter. They are trying to get Theo out of the game with fouls (Bishop running down court and stopping suddenly so Theo would run into him). Or when in, they are trying to draw him out of the paint. With Lewis hobbled, MU was more vulnerable.
We're really good at defending the rim because we pack it in and allow teams to have almost any shot they want from outside. It's not a sustainable defensive strategy.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 07, 2021, 08:54:14 AM
No, you recruit someone like Markus but don't give him free reign to do whatever he wants. I know if I were a blue chipper, I would not go to a school where the primary ball handler shoots whenever he wants and is not interested in getting other players involved. Great players have many viable options and don't want to play with a player like that. I think it did set us back, as good as Markus was. It still goes back to Wojo and how he runs his program.
As my favorite Quarter Horse race caller Ed Burgart would say, "WhateverHeWants is getting stronger as the (meme) race gets longer!!!"
3 BE level players coupled with a coach who's still learning and you end up with a sub .500 team. Its as simple as that and covid had nothing to do with it, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 07, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
3 BE level players coupled with a coach who's still learning and you end up with a sub .500 team. Its as simple as that and covid had nothing to do with it, hey?
You are being generous with the "still learning" comment.
The players absolutely have to produce. Jay Wright didn't win two national titles without getting great players and a bunch of pros. However, 7 years is a significant sample size and I would argue this has been our most disappointing season during the Wojo era. Accepting mediocrity or piss poor play yields mediocrity or college hoops irrelevance. This team is a mess and on the road to nowhere right now. It's terribly frustrating and we need to get this program back on track.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 07, 2021, 08:55:44 AM
Yeah, but the problem is, Markus was here for four years, and during that whole time, we were not able to recruit talent to play alongside him. The team we have now is the direct result of that. As 4ever said, we have 3 Big East level players, none of whom was in the program last year. It's an indictment of Wojo, not Markus. But it's a big part of why we sit at 102 in the NET rankings this morning.
Fair enough. Still, we have to be the greatest BigEast team in history if we managed to win any games with only 3 BigEast level players. Does this say something for our potential going forward?
I watched last night's game with a close female friend who has a D2 guard daughter and has watched intently more basketball than almost all of us. I told her before the start of the game how so many of us, myself included, are losing patience with our coach.... after the game she said, it's the mark of well-coached team when you can stay in a game until the end, despite being outmanned at many positions. I laughed, as clearly Scoop would agree with second part of her statement. The first part, oh boy.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 09:06:41 AM
You are being generous with the "still learning" comment.
Well, he's a slow learner, at best, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 07, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
3 BE level players
Hmmm. Maybe I have to re-think my call to fire Wojo now.
He beat Wisconsin and Creighton with only 3 Big East level players? He beat St. John's, one of the hottest teams in America, with only 3 Big East level players? He has managed to stay close to almost every team on the schedule with only 3 Big East level players?
Wojo must be a hell of a coach.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on February 07, 2021, 08:48:30 AM
Don't accuse me of being a Markus apologist. I have said over and over how much I loved watching the defense-oriented KO teams. My favorite MU player of all time is Tony Miller, whose overall methodical game and style of play is almost diametrically opposed to a high-octane Star like Markus. When this season started on such a promising note, I was gleeful at watching so many guys getting involved on offense, and felt true team basketball was emerging. I bring this up because Markus was exactly who he had to be, for THAT team to have the best chance to win every single night. I don't begrudge him the fact that going forward, we would be playing more of a traditional "team" concept.
Markus played his role at an elite level and I'm not sure anyone could argue otherwise. It's just that the other top players on the team (and potential top players ie recruits) wanted no part of that philosophy and packed their bags and left town (or never got here in the first place). We were left with the players who were just happy to be here and "wanted to be warriors." We're paying the price for that this year as all of our upperclassmen are better suited as role players and not featured max minute starters.
Well, if he is, Gannon College is waitin' on 'im, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 09:18:40 AM
Hmmm. Maybe I have to re-think my call to fire Wojo now.
He beat Wisconsin and Creighton with only 3 Big East level players? He beat St. John's, one of the hottest teams in America, with only 3 Big East level players? He has managed to stay close to almost every team on the schedule with only 3 Big East level players?
Wojo must be a hell of a coach.
Both Creighton and Whisky may struggle to be on the 5 line come tournament time.
Quote from: panda on February 07, 2021, 08:58:34 AM
We're really good at defending the rim because we pack it in and allow teams to have almost any shot they want from outside. It's not a sustainable defensive strategy.
MU is bad on defense because of the extra trips we give up on offense. Usually it's turnovers. Yesterday it was rebounding as McD was trying to pull Theo out. 21st worst on giving up trips per possession.
Within 10 seconds after a steal, MU gives up a whopping eFG% of 66%. Off a MU score it's still a high 56% eFG% by our opponents. That's a transition D problem, not on Theo or the half court defense. The longer possession stats are much better.
How many times did Creighton beat MU up the floor yesterday while our players pouted or delayed after a forced shot?
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 07, 2021, 09:21:21 AM
Both Creighton and Whisky may struggle to be on the 5 line come tournament time.
Exactly, I'm looking at the Badgers schedule and they *should* stay a Q1 win but it's not a certainty. Certainly not the top 5 win that was touted at the time. Creighton was a nice win but would finish in the middle of the pack in most years in the Big East with that roster. Those two wins are no longer holding much weight on Selection Sunday, not that it would matter anyway at this point.
Quote from: Johnny B on February 06, 2021, 06:09:02 PM
feels like they played really bad but lost by 3. idk weird feeling from this one. nit bound
i doubt there's the NIT this year, just as I doubt MU finishes above .500 on the year
With 269 turnovers, we are 305th in the country. We are 284th in FGA and 233rd in FGM. In conference, we are 8th in total rebounding and 9th in 3PT shooting. We have zero players averaging 15 ppg, and only four players averaging at least 10 ppg. Theo is tied for third on the team in rebounding with Jamal at 5.8 per game (Dawson and Justin average more rebounds per game).
Look, no matter how the stats are presented, the team is just not good. We are below average in many key areas. Our four year players are better than where they were at as freshmen, yes; but they still are not good enough to be Big East-level competitors night-in and night-out.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 07, 2021, 09:24:07 AM
MU is bad on defense because of the extra trips we give up on offense. Usually it's turnovers. Yesterday it was rebounding as McD was trying to pull Theo out. 21st worst on giving up trips per possession.
Within 10 seconds after a steal, MU gives up a whopping eFG% of 66%. Off a MU score it's still a high 56% eFG% by our opponents. That's a transition D problem, not on Theo or the half court defense. The longer possession stats are much better.
How many times did Creighton beat MU up the floor yesterday while our players pouted or delayed after a forced shot?
Good points. I saw a bad sign yesterday. A guy who has been the definition of perseverance and good attitude, Greg pouted after a key missed 3. I feel for him so much. He's busted his butt so hard for so many years, under such hardship. He wants to win so bad, and felt he let his team down. It's one damn shot, Greg. Keep shooting, man. The let-down is never the missed shot, it's when we allow our attitude to sulk. I will never forget freshman Greg coming off the bench and reigning in a crazed Andrew Rowsey at UW-Madison. It spoke of his maturity and demeanor to notice something that may hurt our team and get in his teammate's face about it. Greg, thank you for being a Warrior.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 07, 2021, 09:24:07 AM
MU is bad on defense because of the extra trips we give up on offense. Usually it's turnovers. Yesterday it was rebounding as McD was trying to pull Theo out. 21st worst on giving up trips per possession.
Within 10 seconds after a steal, MU gives up a whopping eFG% of 66%. Off a MU score it's still a high 56% eFG% by our opponents. That's a transition D problem, not on Theo or the half court defense. The longer possession stats are much better.
How many times did Creighton beat MU up the floor yesterday while our players pouted or delayed after a forced shot?
Yep that's correct. That coupled with the fact they allow teams to shoot a high volume of three pointers (due to packing the lane/sagging help defenders) is an unsustainable strategy. It's honestly dumbfounding.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 06, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
Don't you know criticizing Markus is not allowed and punishable by death? Think about all of the titles and post-season success he brought us.
i'd look at it this way...Markus did all he could with a terd of a HC he had to work with.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 07, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
Still on Woj. He wasn't able to recruit talent needed to win on this level. At most, he has 3 BE players on this roster, hey?
I'd argue he hasn't held on or developed the talent. He has no problem bringing it in. There's a slight bump in average recruit's rankings from Buzz to Wojo.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 07, 2021, 09:46:23 AM
I'd argue he hasn't held on or developed the talent. He has no problem bringing it in. There's a slight bump in average recruit's rankings from Buzz to Wojo.
*I posted this in another thread.
Rebuilding in college basketball takes one or two recruiting classes. Longer than that and questions should be asked of how you're cultivating your talent once they arrive on campus.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 07, 2021, 09:46:23 AM
I'd argue he hasn't held on or developed the talent. He has no problem bringing it in. There's a slight bump in average recruit's rankings from Buzz to Wojo.
Agree with this. I think on a broader basis he hasn't, as Towers has said, made the team greater than the sum of its parts. Given some pretty good recruits, I would in fact say he has made the team less than the sum of its parts.
Maybe he will figure it our like Majerus did, but I don't think it will be at MU.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 07, 2021, 09:37:08 AM
With 269 turnovers, we are 305th in the country. We are 284th in FGA and 233rd in FGM. In conference, we are 8th in total rebounding and 9th in 3PT shooting. We have zero players averaging 15 ppg, and only four players averaging at least 10 ppg. Theo is tied for third on the team in rebounding with Jamal at 5.8 per game (Dawson and Justin average more rebounds per game).
Look, no matter how the stats are presented, the team is just not good. We are below average in many key areas. Our four year players are better than where they were at as freshmen, yes; but they still are not good enough to be Big East-level competitors night-in and night-out.
GoldenWarrior is spot on here. Excellent post.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 08:15:23 AM
Wow. That's harsh.
I don't see him checked out at all. He is an undersized and limited player who is prone to being undisciplined. (Evidence...his continued hunting for blocks and his flagrant foul.) Whether or not that's lack of coaching or him not listening is not really important to this debate.
But this is who John is. He's never been a big rebounder. If you go back in his history, he has numerous BE games where you will find "1" or "2" in the total rebound column.
Theo is what he is: a more offensively polished Faisal Abraham.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/
People smarter than Scoopers don't think the strategy of packing the paint, protecting the rim, and giving up a lot of 3s is a bad one.
Also, this idea that Wojo couldn't get any talented players to Marquette while Markus was at Marquette is laughable. Markus was a class of 2016 recruit.
- Class of 2017 - most players make up their minds by early signing period in November. So before Markus has really played much college basketball at all.
- Class of 2018 - Markus's freshman season would not have scared anyone who wanted shots away. Also landed Joey and Brendan remained committed even though in theory he could've gone anywhere since he did not sign a LOI with the class of 2016. So very good glass despite having cancerous Markus
- Class of 2019 - mostly made their decisions really before Markus became the clear cut alpha at Marquette - pretty split between Markus and Rowsey (again, early signing period is in November, at the very start of the season). Class included 4 star guard Symir Torrence
- Class of 2020 - Markus is gone by the time they hit campus.
So only one recruiting class would've been aware that Markus would be shooting whenever he wanted by the time they signed up to play at Marquette. He'd be around for one of their four years. So MAYBE he hurt our 2019 recruiting class.
But the reality is our classes were no better or worse than what Wojo has brought in on average. Depending on the number of scholarships open, usually a higher four star, maybe another four star towards the back end of the top 100, and 1 or 2 three stars. Just like the class of 2021 is. So I guess the class of 2021 is still scared Markus will be eating all their shots.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 10:47:33 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/
People smarter than Scoopers don't think the strategy of packing the paint, protecting the rim, and giving up a lot of 3s is a bad one.
Except they were good at it.
Quote from: Jockey on February 07, 2021, 11:07:12 AM
Except they were good at it.
Right. But the idea that the philosophy is a bad basketball strategy appears to be wrong.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 06, 2021, 08:56:17 PM
Astounding stat. He still hasn't figured out basic fundamental rebounding and not trying to block everything.
This team has some roster issues but is absolutely underachieving.
You're right, Muggs. The blocks are great, but when you try to block everything - you are always out of position for the rebound.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 10:47:33 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/
People smarter than Scoopers don't think the strategy of packing the paint, protecting the rim, and giving up a lot of 3s is a bad one.
Except MU consistently gets exposed on p&r's.
Quote from: panda on February 07, 2021, 11:26:41 AM
Except MU consistently gets exposed on p&r's.
And our transition defense.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 10:47:33 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/
People smarter than Scoopers don't think the strategy of packing the paint, protecting the rim, and giving up a lot of 3s is a bad one.
The NBA and college basketball are vastly different styles of basketball. Good effort though.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 07, 2021, 12:01:03 PM
The NBA and college basketball are vastly different styles of basketball. Good effort though.
So the better players are...worse at shooting it from deep?
Not buying that theory.
But maybe Wojo should have everyone switching all over the court. Guys like Theo, Dawson, and Justin, 3 of our top 6 rotational guys, are tailor made for that kind of defense.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
So the better players are...worse at shooting it from deep?
Not buying that theory.
But maybe Wojo should have everyone switching all over the court. Guys like Theo, Dawson, and Justin, 3 of our top 6 rotational guys, are tailor made for that kind of defense.
The difference between the NBA and college isn't that great. About 2%. The NBA distance is a factor.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 11:04:59 AMSo only one recruiting class would've been aware that Markus would be shooting whenever he wanted by the time they signed up to play at Marquette. He'd be around for one of their four years. So MAYBE he hurt our 2019 recruiting class.
I don't know, Traci Carter said Markus Howard was going to be Marquette's all-time scoring leader when he left. Between AAU & Team USA, as well as being Marquette's leading scorer from his freshman year, I think it was pretty clear early on what an instrumental part he would play offensively. Maybe 30-40 years ago this would've been the case, but anyone that watched MU in 2016-17 & was remotely aware of the amateur basketball scene had an idea of how good Howard would be at the college level.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 07, 2021, 01:59:53 PM
I don't know, Traci Carter said Markus Howard was going to be Marquette's all-time scoring leader when he left. Between AAU & Team USA, as well as being Marquette's leading scorer from his freshman year, I think it was pretty clear early on what an instrumental part he would play offensively. Maybe 30-40 years ago this would've been the case, but anyone that watched MU in 2016-17 & was remotely aware of the amateur basketball scene had an idea of how good Howard would be at the college level.
Sure, I'm sure recruits knew Markus would be good. But the idea that Markus being on the roster prevented Wojo from adding talent is a complete joke. The reality is that the talent Wojo brought in has been roughly the same from before Markus was at Marquette, to the time Markus was at Marquette, and now after Markus had graduated.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 07, 2021, 01:59:53 PM
I don't know, Traci Carter said Markus Howard was going to be Marquette's all-time scoring leader when he left. Between AAU & Team USA, as well as being Marquette's leading scorer from his freshman year, I think it was pretty clear early on what an instrumental part he would play offensively. Maybe 30-40 years ago this would've been the case, but anyone that watched MU in 2016-17 & was remotely aware of the amateur basketball scene had an idea of how good Howard would be at the college level.
M2NBA
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 06:19:54 PM
Wish DJ had come here out of high school. Be a really solid second guard next to Markus for a year and get a bit of his always attack mentality.
I contend it wouldn't have mattered.
Name one single player, including Howard, who has materially improved an area of his game while being coached by Wojo at MU. I cannot think of any. Howard could score when he got here and could score when he left. He wasn't a great passer when he got here and wasn't when he left. Same for "D".
This lack of ability to develop players is why we see the same mistakes and deficiencies year after year.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on February 07, 2021, 02:24:52 PM
I contend it wouldn't have mattered.
Name one single player, including Howard, who has materially improved an area of his game while being coached by Wojo at MU. I cannot think of any. Howard could score when he got here and could score when he left. He wasn't a great passer when he got here and wasn't when he left. Same for "D".
This lack of ability to develop players is why we see the same mistakes and deficiencies year after year.
Sacar Anim.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on February 07, 2021, 02:24:52 PM
I contend it wouldn't have mattered.
Name one single player, including Howard, who has materially improved an area of his game while being coached by Wojo at MU. I cannot think of any. Howard could score when he got here and could score when he left. He wasn't a great passer when he got here and wasn't when he left. Same for "D".
This lack of ability to develop players is why we see the same mistakes and deficiencies year after year.
Sam, Markus, Sacar, Theo, Jamal
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 02:32:55 PM
Sam, Markus, Sacar, Theo, Jamal
If a player improved, it was through his own hard work.
If a player didn't improve, it was because Wojo held him back.
Learn the rules!
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 08:31:10 AM
Lol. So I'm a liar...
Yep. No way I didn't know Markus's eligibility was through when Bailey announced he was leaving. And you know that.
Thanks for coming clean.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 02:11:34 PM
Sure, I'm sure recruits knew Markus would be good. But the idea that Markus being on the roster prevented Wojo from adding talent is a complete joke. The reality is that the talent Wojo brought in has been roughly the same from before Markus was at Marquette, to the time Markus was at Marquette, and now after Markus had graduated.
So outside of Carton, Garcia, and Lewis, where is the talent? And where was it last year? If Wojo is bringing in the same talent consistently year after year, then he's either A.) not as good a recruiter as everyone says he is, or B.) a poor evaluator of talent.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 07, 2021, 02:47:06 PM
So outside of Carton, Garcia, and Lewis, where is the talent? And where was it last year? If Wojo is bringing in the same talent consistently year after year, then he's either A.) not as good a recruiter as everyone says he is, or B.) a poor evaluator of talent.
Yep. Serious possibility that next year could be worse than this year.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 07, 2021, 02:47:06 PM
So outside of Carton, Garcia, and Lewis, where is the talent? And where was it last year? If Wojo is bringing in the same talent consistently year after year, then he's either A.) not as good a recruiter as everyone says he is, or B.) a poor evaluator of talent.
Yeah I have said many different places that the talent is vastly overrated. He's had fairly consistent classes based on their rankings. Whether those players were overrated or misused by Wojo, he's consistently brought in 1 or 2 four stars and 1 or 2 three stars. Sometimes a quality transfer and sometimes a transfer miss.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 07, 2021, 02:41:46 PM
Yep. No way I didn't know Markus's eligibility was through when Bailey announced he was leaving. And you know that.
Thanks for coming clean.
So we're backtracking now. Got it.
I didn't make up that post. It's a direct quote of yours. Sorry that you don't like it and find it incredibly stupid. At least you see the light now.
Quote from: BLM on February 07, 2021, 02:32:55 PM
Sam, Markus, Sacar, Theo, Jamal
I will give you Sacar. He did vastly improve.
The others I would argue against. Sam was ready the day he set foot on campus until he voted with his feet and left. Could shoot and pass when he got here but was defensively limited. Same as when he left. Marcus I already covered, so we disagree. Theo matured more than anything. Finally learned what a stupid foul is but still goes for blocks way too often, exposing the rim. Still limited offensively. Jamal, I think there are others who have covered him here. Perhaps too much criticism, imo, but it's been covered.
I'm not sure what game y'all watched. Thought we played well overall. We got two 40% 3P shooters multiple wide open looks and they missed. Couldn't get it done. We get killed on the boards in a game where 1 big was playing on 1 knee, 1 was playing at maybe 50% for 8 minutes, and 1 was out. We won the eFG% battle and kept it close in TO% and FTR. Offensive boards were the difference.
That game was not an example of a bad team or bad coaching. The season on the other hand...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 07, 2021, 03:21:56 PM
I'm not sure what game y'all watched. Thought we played well overall. We got two 40% 3P shooters multiple wide open looks and they missed. Couldn't get it done. We get killed on the boards in a game where 1 big was playing on 1 knee, 1 was playing at maybe 50% for 8 minutes, and 1 was out. We won the eFG% battle and kept it close in TO% and FTR. Offensive boards were the difference.
That game was not an example of a bad team or bad coaching. The season on the other hand...
TAMU, we were down double digits for most of the second half. It got close at the end because Creighton clearly took their for off the gas to run clock. And that almost cost them the game.
Until the last few minutes, CU could do whatever they wanted.
The announcers, repeatedly (and correctly) pointed out the size advantage we had with Theo and Garcia. We did not exploit this and, in fact, we were outplayed on the boards and inside.
That's coaching. I'm sorry but it is.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on February 07, 2021, 03:18:54 PM
I will give you Sacar. He did vastly improve.
The others I would argue against. Sam was ready the day he set foot on campus until he voted with his feet and left. Could shoot and pass when he got here but was defensively limited. Same as when he left. Marcus I already covered, so we disagree. Theo matured more than anything. Finally learned what a stupid foul is but still goes for blocks way too often, exposing the rim. Still limited offensively. Jamal, I think there are others who have covered him here. Perhaps too much criticism, imo, but it's been covered.
If you can't see how much Jamal improved or Markus developed his all around game beyond shooting from freshman to senior year, or Sam developing beyond a spot up sniper from 3, then I guess I'll just say you're right. Nobody has gotten better under Wojo. Even though Markus went from not even All BE as a freshman to First Team All American as a senior. No development though.
Ignorance is bliss.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on February 07, 2021, 03:28:52 PM
TAMU, we were down double digits for most of the second half. It got close at the end because Creighton clearly took their for off the gas to run clock. And that almost cost them the game.
They did? Creighton never led by more than 12 (51-39 with 12:31 left) and that only happened once. Literally every time Creighton pushed it to double digits, Marquette scored on their next possession to cut it to single digits, except for twice (when they were leading by 10 and pushed their lead to 12 in the example above) and once at the 11:25 mark when Creighton pushed the lead to 11, Jose missed a three, then Creighton turned it over and Carton dunked it to cut it to 9 again. The last time that Creighton had a double digit lead, there was over 6 minutes left in the game. It was within 2 possessions with over 5 minutes left. That doesn't seem to match your narrative.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 07, 2021, 02:47:06 PM
So outside of Carton, Garcia, and Lewis, where is the talent? And where was it last year? If Wojo is bringing in the same talent consistently year after year, then he's either A.) not as good a recruiter as everyone says he is, or B.) a poor evaluator of talent.
Its both A and B. He brings in a good player here and there, but doesn't bring in a good team. On top of that there is no identity and no system to recruit to. You can bring in lesser players if you have a system that they can fit. Wisconsin is a perfect example.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 07, 2021, 03:21:56 PM
I'm not sure what game y'all watched. Thought we played well overall. We got two 40% 3P shooters multiple wide open looks and they missed. Couldn't get it done. We get killed on the boards in a game where 1 big was playing on 1 knee, 1 was playing at maybe 50% for 8 minutes, and 1 was out. We won the eFG% battle and kept it close in TO% and FTR. Offensive boards were the difference.
That game was not an example of a bad team or bad coaching. The season on the other hand...
When your two most talented players disappear for long stretches, I think coaching does factor in. I mean we can't afford to go 5-10 mins of DJ playing passively or Dawson not touching the ball.
Agree about the open looks, though. Hard to fault Wojo when Cain and Elliott can't knock em down.
Also, as usual, Wojo's team kept battling. That doesn't earn them extra gold stars or anything —they are supposed to keep battling — but given that several Scoopers are dying to say they've quit on Wojo (I know, because several already have incorrectly said they have), it's worth bringing up.
Unlike some Scoopers, I don't think Wojo "sucks" or is an "embarrassment." It's just time.
My problem with Wojo is a body-of-work one. 7 years ... one time contending for (and ultimately blowing) a conference title ... zero NCAA wins ... numerous meltdowns against the likes of DePaul ... 2 end-of-season collapses (and possibly 3 straight counting this year) ... Hausershima ... etc.
We can do better.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 07, 2021, 03:21:56 PM
I'm not sure what game y'all watched. Thought we played well overall. We got two 40% 3P shooters multiple wide open looks and they missed. Couldn't get it done. We get killed on the boards in a game where 1 big was playing on 1 knee, 1 was playing at maybe 50% for 8 minutes, and 1 was out. We won the eFG% battle and kept it close in TO% and FTR. Offensive boards were the difference.
That game was not an example of a bad team or bad coaching. The season on the other hand...
Truth is we have played almost every game close this season. Unfortunately, we have been on the losing end of most of them. They do not quit.
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 04:15:05 PM
When your two most talented players disappear for long stretches, I think coaching does factor in. I mean we can't afford to go 5-10 mins of DJ playing passively or Dawson not touching the ball.
Agree about the open looks, though. Hard to fault Wojo when Cain and Elliott can't knock em down.
Also, as usual, Wojo's team kept battling. That doesn't earn them extra gold stars or anything —they are supposed to keep battling — but given that several Scoopers are dying to say they've quit on Wojo (I know, because several already have incorrectly said they have), it's worth bringing up.
Unlike some Scoopers, I don't think Wojo "sucks" or is an "embarrassment." It's just time.
My problem with Wojo is a body-of-work one. 7 years ... one time contending for (and ultimately blowing) a conference title ... zero NCAA wins ... numerous meltdowns against the likes of DePaul ... 2 end-of-season collapses (and possibly 3 straight counting this year) ... Hausershima ... etc.
We can do better.
Very fair. It is simply time.
I keep hoping that Wojo will leave on his own at the end of this season but I doubt that he is very marketable to P5 teams where he could go without taking a huge pay cut.
I come to the conclusion that Carton and McEwen are a worse guard combo than Wilson and Thomas. They have more natural talent, but they make way to many mistakes.
Quote from: bilsu on February 07, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
I come to the conclusion that Carton and McEwen are a worse guard combo than Wilson and Thomas. They have more natural talent, but they make way to many mistakes.
No guard combo will ever be as bad as Wilson and Thomas. That would've been a horrible guard combo on a low major team. Let us never speak of that again.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 07, 2021, 03:21:56 PM
I'm not sure what game y'all watched. Thought we played well overall. We got two 40% 3P shooters multiple wide open looks and they missed. Couldn't get it done. We get killed on the boards in a game where 1 big was playing on 1 knee, 1 was playing at maybe 50% for 8 minutes, and 1 was out. We won the eFG% battle and kept it close in TO% and FTR. Offensive boards were the difference.
That game was not an example of a bad team or bad coaching. The season on the other hand...
Didn't execute when we needed it, Carton took too long to find his game. We also did not use our bigs effectively and got abused on the glass. There are no moral victories. As I have said for some time we can't win if Carton plays poorly or disappears for prolonged stretches.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 07, 2021, 05:49:22 PM
Didn't execute when we needed it, Carton took too long to find his game. We also did not use our bigs effectively and got abused on the glass. There are no moral victories. As I have said for some time we can't win if Carton plays poorly or disappears for prolonged stretches.
Creighton didnt play and hasn't played like the number 15 team either. They didnt play that great
Quote from: bilsu on February 07, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
I come to the conclusion that Carton and McEwen are a worse guard combo than Wilson and Thomas. They have more natural talent, but they make way to many mistakes.
absurd
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 07, 2021, 05:59:33 PM
Creighton didnt play and hasn't played like the number 15 team either. They didnt play that great
Agreed.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 07, 2021, 04:33:13 PM
Very fair. It is simply time.
I keep hoping that Wojo will leave on his own at the end of this season but I doubt that he is very marketable to P5 teams where he could go without taking a huge pay cut.
I said it two games ago, but I firmly believe wojo is gone this year. I'd bet on it.
Quote from: bilsu on February 07, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
I come to the conclusion that Carton and McEwen are a worse guard combo than Wilson and Thomas. They have more natural talent, but they make way to many mistakes.
C'mon.
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 07:19:14 PM
I said it two games ago, but I firmly believe wojo is gone this year. I'd bet on it.
I hope you're right but it's hard to see our alma mater eating a multimillion-dollar buyout during a pandemic.
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 07:34:46 PM
C'mon.
I hope you're right but it's hard to see our alma mater eating a multimillion-dollar buyout during a pandemic.
People said the same thing about college football coaches.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 07:37:28 PM
People said the same thing about college football coaches.
Sure, but who is putting the money up?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 07:37:28 PM
People said the same thing about college football coaches.
If you're agreeing with BR, I truly hope both of you are right.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 07, 2021, 07:41:36 PM
Sure, but who is putting the money up?
I have no idea. But that's not the point. The pandemic won't be the reason they don't let him go.
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 07:44:01 PM
If you're agreeing with BR, I truly hope both of you are right.
No I think he will be the coach. I just don't think MU is interested in making the move this year.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 07:46:52 PM
No I think he will be the coach. I just don't think MU is interested in making the move this year.
OK.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 07:45:48 PM
I have no idea. But that's not the point. The pandemic won't be the reason they don't let him go.
How will we know?
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 07:54:38 PM
OK.
How will we know?
We won't. But if MU wanted to I think they would find a way. My guess is they don't want to ask someone to help with a gift because they want to use it for something else.
Sultan and 82,
Time will tell. It's time for a change and not that my opinion means anything to the brass, but others opinions do.
Why the domer is the current AD is another question I have but we shall see what happens.
ND sucks
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 08:10:36 PM
Sultan and 82,
Time will tell. It's time for a change and not that my opinion means anything to the brass, but others opinions do.
Why the domer is the current AD is another question I have but we shall see what happens.
ND sucks
We shall see? I thought you were suggesting it was a done deal. You got my hopes up!
Crean sucks
Don't know why you're insulting Scholl. He's made a bunch of good hires.
Quote from: MU82 on February 07, 2021, 08:13:13 PM
We shall see? I thought you were suggesting it was a done deal. You got my hopes up!
If I was to bet, i think he's gone. Hope I'm right, and I'm planning on being wrong.
Eye'll keep y'all posted if eye cee a "For Sale" sign on hiz lawn, hey?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 07:46:52 PM
No I think he will be the coach. I just don't think MU is interested in making the move this year.
Spoken like a true Wojo Worshipper.
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 08:16:01 PM
If I was to bet, i think he's gone. Hope I'm right, and I'm planning on being wrong.
That's a lot different than this:
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=61349.msg1304084#msg1304084
Quote from: willie warrior on February 07, 2021, 08:25:49 PM
Spoken like a true Wojo Worshipper.
looks like the sultan of South LA is starting to out slurp Wojo-Dukiet over the Lonesome Cowboy. BTW monster Sultan where is the downhome lonesome cowboy these days?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 07, 2021, 08:26:37 PM
That's a lot different than this:
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=61349.msg1304084#msg1304084
It's his win win. If Wojo is fired, pilot flew a big wig in the know at MU and his insiders are better than everyone else. If he doesn't get fired, he told us he was expecting Wojo not to get fired because the administration sucks. Covering both possible outcomes.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 07, 2021, 08:32:09 PM
looks like the sultan of South LA is starting to out slurp Wojo-Dukiet over the Lonesome Cowboy. BTW monster Sultan where is the downhome lonesome cowboy these days?
Paying rent in your head. Cheap and lots of room.
Quote from: WithoutBias on February 07, 2021, 08:35:42 PM
It's his win win. If Wojo is fired, pilot flew a big wig in the know at MU and his insiders are better than everyone else. If he doesn't get fired, he told us he was expecting Wojo not to get fired because the administration sucks. Covering both possible outcomes.
Yeah, our friend BR is buying himself lots of insurance here.
I'll also go out on a limb and say Wojo is gone unless he's back.
Quote from: WithoutBias on February 07, 2021, 08:35:42 PM
It's his win win. If Wojo is fired, pilot flew a big wig in the know at MU and his insiders are better than everyone else. If he doesn't get fired, he told us he was expecting Wojo not to get fired because the administration sucks. Covering both possible outcomes.
Is BR Keefe?
Anyone care to wager? I've proven many wrong previously. Talk is cheap.
Quote from: BLM on February 06, 2021, 06:19:54 PM
Wish DJ had come here out of high school. Be a really solid second guard next to Markus for a year and get a bit of his always attack mentality.
Interesting angle. I agree
Any y'all 'member Karim Mane? BR nailed dat won, aina?
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 11:25:23 PM
Anyone care to wager? I've proven many wrong previously. Talk is cheap.
What are we betting on?
This?:
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 07:19:14 PM
I said it two games ago, but I firmly believe wojo is gone this year. I'd bet on it.
Or this?:
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 08:10:36 PM
Time will tell. It's time for a change and not that my opinion means anything to the brass, but others opinions do.
Or this?:
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 08:16:01 PM
If I was to bet, i think he's gone. Hope I'm right, and I'm planning on being wrong.
Also, just so I know what I'm dealing with, what was your take on Shaka being hired and on Wojo being hired once Shaka was the opposite of a done deal?
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on February 07, 2021, 11:25:23 PM
Anyone care to wager? I've proven many wrong previously. Talk is cheap.
I'm not saying you're wrong. You've just backpeddeled from your initial statement.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 08, 2021, 04:58:50 AM
Any y'all 'member Karim Mane? BR nailed dat won, aina?
I think he said Mane was going to Michigan State. So not really.
This is exactly what he posted, hey?
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on April 07, 2020, 10:23:38 PM
Mane never was coming here. I'd bet a lot on it that he doesn't, nor wanted to for a long time now.
Hope I'm wrong, but highly doubt it.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 08, 2021, 10:12:21 AM
This is exactly what he posted, hey?
Quote from: Bad_Reporter on April 07, 2020, 10:23:38 PM
Mane never was coming here. I'd bet a lot on it that he doesn't, nor wanted to for a long time now.
Hope I'm wrong, but highly doubt it.
He was wrong at this point. We were in on Mane until early to mid May. There were signs that it wasn't going to happen but we didn't get the no until later.
Mannion is still coming here though, right?
Sew iz Etienne, cuz wee schollied #55 two insure it, hey?
Lots of green weinies.
At this rate, we're never gonna get DJ Carton or Dawson Garcia!
Nads, due day stay, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 08, 2021, 11:09:47 AM
Nads, due day stay, hey?
I don't know. Do you?
Have you gotten over your disappointment that you couldn't celebrate them going elsewhere? Buck up, Doc ... maybe you'll get another chance to cheer!
Maybe they'll even bolt for Michigan State. Good ol' Scoreless Joey could sure use the help.
If Bailey could go pro, so could these two also. Plus, with a free pass on transfers, I think next year's roster is a crapshoot, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 08, 2021, 11:24:00 AM
If Bailey could go pro, so could these two also. Plus, with a free pass on transfers, I think next year's roster is a crapshoot, hey?
This. NBA drafts on potential. 6-11 guy that can stretch the floor has it. Carton May or may not have an nba skill set but there's plenty of leagues he could easily make that'd give him a good paycheck
I don't see any of the main core of Dawson, DJ or Justin transferring. I COULD see them contemplating turning pro.
I don't think Osa will be transferring either because there is a path to more playing time. Ditto Jose.
Dex or Sy may consider moving down a level.
Although Bailey left to "go pro", I don't think he's found a team yet. Can anyone confirm?
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 08, 2021, 12:10:06 PM
Although Bailey left to "go pro", I don't think he's found a team yet. Can anyone confirm?
The Nuggets asked him to play for them, but Markus is on the team so he turned it down.
Quote from: BLM on February 08, 2021, 12:38:10 PM
The Nuggets asked him to play for them, but Markus is on the team so he turned it down.
Lol.