Blue Jay Way

[The Sultan]

And I remember one of those two Brando commented the easiest board he'll get all day because the carom went right in his lap.  He was getting beat all day off the dribble that directly led to baskets. The ridiculous elbow to the face that was completely intentional.

I used to like and support John. Now I think he's just a basic a$$hole who's checked out.  And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect. 

Wow.  That's harsh.

I don't see him checked out at all.  He is an undersized and limited player who is prone to being undisciplined.  (Evidence...his continued hunting for blocks and his flagrant foul.)  Whether or not that's lack of coaching or him not listening is not really important to this debate.

But this is who John is.  He's never been a big rebounder.  If you go back in his history, he has numerous BE games where you will find "1" or "2" in the total rebound column.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I used to like and support John. Now I think he's just a basic a$$hole who's checked out.  And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.

Everyone knows why your opinion of Theo changed and it has nothing to do with his performance on the court.

[muwarrior69]

Giving Wojo an extension wouldn't be a reward, it would be allowing Marquette to get rid of him in a year if things don't change for the better. Financially, I'm not sure they're in position to get rid of him now even if they want to.

Perhaps MU should declare bankruptcy.

[tower912]

Just like Villanova, Creighton ran their pick and rolls specifically to pull Theo from the basket.    Once they saw MU was switching and not hedging and that the weakside defenders were not helping, they exploited it.   Theo on guards, DJ guarding the post, etc.

[MuggsyB]

And I remember one of those two Brando commented the easiest board he%u2019ll get all day because the carom went right in his lap.  He was getting beat all day off the dribble that directly led to baskets. The ridiculous elbow to the face that was completely intentional.

I used to like and support John. Now I think he%u2019s just a basic a$$hole who%u2019s checked out.  And his performance yesterday sure provides support for that opinion. He was an embarrassment in every respect.

He's always been a fundamentally poor rebounder and one on one defender.  Early in his career he was forced to help defend and protect the rim more, but trying to block every shot is not intelligent basketball.  He's also way too upright and has no idea how to use his leverage, avoid fouls, or perform simple box outs.  This is a kid with talent despite dealing with a myriad of nagging injuries.    He's also a kid who celebrates a dunk when the score is 6-4 and has countless mental errors on a consistent basis. 

It's a misnomer that blocks or steals indicates a great defender.  That's not necessarily true.  When you constantly gamble and are caught out of position the result is quite often an easy deuce for the opponent.  Theo has seemingly never understood this or apparently has never been taught properly.  It's sad because he should easily be a 10 and 10 guy and an excellent college big.  Yesterday is a game he and DG should have dominated frankly.

[GoldenWarrior11]

It is similar to what happened with Henry.   Players today aren't going to come to a place where there is already a star at their position.    They want to play immediately.   Wojo missed out on forwards because recruits thought Henry, averaging 32 mpg and nearly 20/10, was going to be at MU for more than one year.     Wojo did not land another elite guard while Markus was here because they new Markus was a first team all american, was going to play 33 mpg and score 25+.     Elite guards don't want to play second fiddle.   This is human nature.

Michigan has two 5-stars coming in; three 4-stars and a 3-star.  Michigan is projected to have zero lottery picks this summer and zero first rounders drafted.  And Michigan is a top-10 team in the country.  Villanova has yet another top-10 recruiting class coming in, without any one-and-done players or projected lottery picks.  They, too, are a top-10 team. 

Disregarding the blue bloods (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.), Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Virginia, Gonzaga, Ohio State and countless other consistently competitive (i.e. tournament team) programs do not seem to have the problem of recruiting talent around talent.

When you have a system/program in-place, the players are interchangeable while the success becomes constant.  If the excuse is we can't get players to play with our top guys, that is yet another red flag/indictment on the leadership of the basketball program, and not the kids who refuse to play with other top players. 

[panda]

Wow.  That's harsh.

I don't see him checked out at all.  He is an undersized and limited player who is prone to being undisciplined.  (Evidence...his continued hunting for blocks and his flagrant foul.)  Whether or not that's lack of coaching or him not listening is not really important to this debate.

But this is who John is.  He's never been a big rebounder.  If you go back in his history, he has numerous BE games where you will find "1" or "2" in the total rebound column.

Extremely harsh. Frankly he's being asked to do too much this year. Couple that with playing injured and you get these games.

[The Sultan]

Michigan has two 5-stars coming in; three 4-stars and a 3-star.  Michigan is projected to have zero lottery picks this summer and zero first rounders drafted.  And Michigan is a top-10 team in the country.  Villanova has yet another top-10 recruiting class coming in, without any one-and-done players or projected lottery picks.  They, too, are a top-10 team. 

Disregarding the blue bloods (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.), Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Virginia, Gonzaga, Ohio State and countless other consistently competitive (i.e. tournament team) programs do not seem to have the problem of recruiting talent around talent.

When you have a system/program in-place, the players are interchangeable while the success becomes constant.  If the excuse is we can't get players to play with our top guys, that is yet another red flag/indictment on the leadership of the basketball program, and not the kids who refuse to play with other top players. 

Good recruiters show players the role they can play within the team and how that role can grow and develop over time.  Using Markus or Henry as reasons for recruiting misses is more of an indictment of Wojo than anything.

[wadesworld]

Ha, ha. My point was not that Bailey would have to continue playing with Markus if he stayed. My point was that after 2 years of playing for a coach who handed the ball to Markus and told everyone else to get out of the way he had had it. He (IMO) grew dispirited and left to play "pro" ball, even though it was obvious he was nowhere ready. And of course that's clear if you read the entire thread - I even concede later that Bailey leaving because of frustration over Wojo's style is an observation/opinion that some might find an overreach.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but for some reason your "thing" has never been honest conversation or debate. You'd rather pull stuff out of context and intentionally misconstrue. You do it with everyone who disagrees with you on any topic - politics, hoops, the Milwaukee Brewers, it doesn't matter. You look for fights and you fight dirty and dishonestly.

Lol. So I'm a liar...but then I go and quote exactly what you asked me to "print," the full post, so nothing to take out of context, and now I'm fighting dirty.

Hilarious stuff Lenny. Someone said you were like cheeks the other day. They certainly weren't wrong.

[Badgerhater]

He's always been a fundamentally poor rebounder and one on one defender.  Early in his career he was forced to help defend and protect the rim more, but trying to block every shot is not intelligent basketball.  He's also way too upright and has no idea how to use his leverage, avoid fouls, or perform simple box outs.  This is a kid with talent despite dealing with a myriad of nagging injuries.    He's also a kid who celebrates a dunk when the score is 6-4 and has countless mental errors on a consistent basis. 

It's a misnomer that blocks or steals indicates a great defender.  That's not necessarily true.  When you constantly gamble and are caught out of position the result is quite often an easy deuce for the opponent.  Theo has seemingly never understood this or apparently has never been taught properly.  It's sad because he should easily be a 10 and 10 guy and an excellent college big.  Yesterday is a game he and DG should have dominated frankly.

I thought Wojo coached bigs while at Duke.

[4everwarriors]

Kinda, he told folks where to put big boxes of K's money, hey?

[CTWarrior]

Lol ok, Tower. Keep blaming the players.

What does Wojo have on you? He's a Dookie. We owe him nothing. We've actually given him more than he's ever deserved - 7 years of high major NCAAB head coach salary.

Look, I'm firmly in the Nojo camp now, but sometimes the players have to produce.  We missed several FTs and wide open 3s in the last 5 minutes or so.  They were good looks and the guys we want to be taking them took them.  I blame the season on Wojo, but the players were put in a position to win last night and did not get it done.

[4everwarriors]

Still on Woj. He wasn't able to recruit talent needed to win on this level. At most, he has 3 BE players on this roster, hey?

[CTWarrior]

- The TO right before the media TO could have cost the game
- There were about 10 possessions where MU moved the ball (it's called passing) for at least part of the possession.  First time this has happened at all in several games.  Nice to see.
- On the aforementioned possessions, when the ball ends up with McEwen or Theo it just stops and the remainder of the possession is wasted
- 12 possessions ruined by turnovers
- Creighton's ball movement (passing) is pretty to watch.  I wonder if Wojo realizes that the reason teams get open shots and layups is because of this?  I wonder if he has noticed that it's better than dribbling the ball at the top (or Theo standing in the post, waiting for the double team, thinking about what to do).
- Some timely good play kept MU in the game but it was never enough
- Nice to see Perez get some run.  I think Greg/Dex/Perez/Sy are all interchangeable.  Guys who can get some minutes but have severe limitations.  Sy is the only one who can dribble, but needs to be given a 3 dribble limit on any posession in the half court.  Greg just cannot play D.  Dex travels every time he touches the ball.  Even in the summer pick-up games, his first step is a travel.  It's been called a couple times in games already.  How Wojo and the staff cannot have corrected that by now is egregious.  Perez - jury is still out.  Wouldn't mind seeing him get more minutes.  Sy - stopgap PG only.
- Theo is getting worse.  He's in the way on offense and always out of position on D. 4 years of college ball and still no feel for the game, no vision, no sense of the double team and now little guys are boxing him out and out rebounding him.  Again, this is on Wojo.  Creighton is a team with only one guy with size and he plays spot minutes.  Go Small!  Run! Attack!  Move!... but he just doesn't see it.

Creighton's ball movement is fun to watch, but it and the back door cuts are made possible by the fact that almost all of their players are a threat from anywhere on the floor.  That's because McDermott has a system and he recruits to it.  Wojo needs to do that.  When you are not going to get the very top-flight players, it is best to recruit to some philosophy besides getting the best puzzle pieces you can and see if you can fit them together later.

[CTWarrior]

Still on Woj. He wasn't able to recruit talent needed to win on this level. At most, he has 3 BE players on this roster, hey?

Can't argue with that. though I was referring to his game coaching.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Of course not.  I'm implying that his absolute free reign and ultimate green light while he was here were wrong.  It caused dissension in the locker room and on the court during two different seasons (Koby and Joey).  Markus was a great player but Wojo allowing him to do whatever he wanted was damaging to the program.

I nominate "Wojo let him do 'whatever he wanted' " as the greatest Scoop meme of all time.

It's really this simple: Wojo sells the program to standout guards by giving them a lot of freedom to initiate offense. One of those standout guards had the sickest step-back move ever seen in a Marquette uniform. That move was designed to operate best while closely guarded. Markus hit a ridiculously high percentage of these step-back 3s.

   The problem was when he missed a couple of these most difficult shots, sometimes at crucial points in games, players who know better allowed themselves to depart from a team mentality and become critical of Markus. I know it's hard for people to grasp that a team mentality is not the same for every team. 99 teams out of 100 would not allow their lead guard to take such closely-guarded threes at will. Markus' absurd talent, especially with this ultra-specific skill shot, made the step-back one of the true keys of our offense. Offended players took their beef to the coach, who stood by his star and his system, as most coaches would. Those same offended players didn't comprehend how many open looks they got due to their "selfish" teammate.

  Don't accuse me of being a Markus apologist. I have said over and over how much I loved watching the defense-oriented KO teams. My favorite MU player of all time is Tony Miller, whose overall methodical game and style of play is almost diametrically opposed to a high-octane Star like Markus. When this season started on such a promising note, I was gleeful at watching so many guys getting involved on offense, and felt true team basketball was emerging. I bring this up because Markus was exactly who he had to be, for THAT team to have the best chance to win every single night. I don't begrudge him the fact that going forward, we would be playing more of a traditional "team" concept.

[CTWarrior]

Genius. We should never recruit anyone as good as Markus, who wound up in the top 30 or so career college scorers in history. Or if we do, we should injure them so that we can get recruits that might be a fraction of what he was. Plus, it's weird that he would affect recruiting at both guard and wing.

I've never seen a collection of malcontents to rival this. Recruit after recruit fails to meet their standard for one reason or another. Then when we strike the mother lode (that's Markus, for those of you who are slow), we blame him (a success) for our subsequent failures. Pathetic. Sad.

No, you recruit someone like Markus but don't give him free reign to do whatever he wants.  I know if I were a blue chipper, I would not go to a school where the primary ball handler shoots whenever he wants and is not interested in getting other players involved.  Great players have many viable options and don't want to play with a player like that.  I think it did set us back, as good as Markus was.  It still goes back to Wojo and how he runs his program.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Just like Villanova, Creighton ran their pick and rolls specifically to pull Theo from the basket.    Once they saw MU was switching and not hedging and that the weakside defenders were not helping, they explored it.   Theo on guards, DJ guarding the post, etc.

Yep. MU's scheme was exploited. MU killed Creighton on the boards in their first game. Losing PIP 42-28. Theo was a +10 on a the court and not sitting with foul trouble in the 2nd, MU was effective. Creighton built their lead into double digits when Wojo sat Theo after his third foul.

Do people realize MU is 2nd in the nation at defending at the rim? There are a few reasons for that, despite having the worst defense in the BE. One is Theo.

Coaches counter. They are trying to get Theo out of the game with fouls (Bishop running down court and stopping suddenly so Theo would run into him). Or when in, they are trying to draw him out of the paint. With Lewis hobbled, MU was more vulnerable.

[Silent Verbal]

I nominate "Wojo let him do 'whatever he wanted' " as the greatest Scoop meme of all time.

It's really this simple: Wojo sells the program to standout guards by giving them a lot of freedom to initiate offense. One of those standout guards had the sickest step-back move ever seen in a Marquette uniform. That move was designed to operate best while closely guarded. Markus hit a ridiculously high percentage of these step-back 3s.

   The problem was when he missed a couple of these most difficult shots, sometimes at crucial points in games, players who know better allowed themselves to depart from a team mentality and become critical of Markus. I know it's hard for people to grasp that a team mentality is not the same for every team. 99 teams out of 100 would not allow their lead guard to take such closely-guarded threes at will. Markus' absurd talent, especially with this ultra-specific skill shot, made the step-back one of the true keys of our offense. Offended players took their beef to the coach, who stood by his star and his system, as most coaches would. Those same offended players didn't comprehend how many open looks they got due to their "selfish" teammate.

  Don't accuse me of being a Markus apologist. I have said over and over how much I loved watching the defense-oriented KO teams. My favorite MU player of all time is Tony Miller, whose overall methodical game and style of play is almost diametrically opposed to a high-octane Star like Markus. When this season started on such a promising note, I was gleeful at watching so many guys getting involved on offense, and felt true team basketball was emerging. I bring this up because Markus was exactly who he had to be, for THAT team to have the best chance to win every single night. I don't begrudge him the fact that going forward, we would be playing more of a traditional "team" concept.

Yeah, but the problem is, Markus was here for four years, and during that whole time, we were not able to recruit talent to play alongside him.  The team we have now is the direct result of that.  As 4ever said, we have 3 Big East level players, none of whom was in the program last year.  It's an indictment of Wojo, not Markus.  But it's a big part of why we sit at 102 in the NET rankings this morning.

[panda]

Yep. MU's scheme was exploited. MU killed Creighton on the boards in their first game. Losing PIP 42-28. Theo was a +10 on a the court and not sitting with foul trouble in the 2nd, MU was effective. Creighton built their lead into double digits when Wojo sat Theo after his third foul.

Do people realize MU is 2nd in the nation at defending at the rim? There are a few reasons for that, despite having the worst defense in the BE. One is Theo.

Coaches counter. They are trying to get Theo out of the game with fouls (Bishop running down court and stopping suddenly so Theo would run into him). Or when in, they are trying to draw him out of the paint. With Lewis hobbled, MU was more vulnerable.

We're really good at defending the rim because we pack it in and allow teams to have almost any shot they want from outside. It's not a sustainable defensive strategy.

[NorthernDancerColt]

No, you recruit someone like Markus but don't give him free reign to do whatever he wants.  I know if I were a blue chipper, I would not go to a school where the primary ball handler shoots whenever he wants and is not interested in getting other players involved.  Great players have many viable options and don't want to play with a player like that.  I think it did set us back, as good as Markus was.  It still goes back to Wojo and how he runs his program.

As my favorite Quarter Horse race caller Ed Burgart would say, "WhateverHeWants is getting stronger as the (meme) race gets longer!!!"

[4everwarriors]

3 BE level players coupled with a coach who's still learning and you end up with a sub .500 team. Its as simple as that and covid had nothing to do with it, hey?

[The Sultan]

3 BE level players coupled with a coach who's still learning and you end up with a sub .500 team. Its as simple as that and covid had nothing to do with it, hey?

You are being generous with the "still learning" comment.

[MuggsyB]

The players absolutely have to produce.  Jay Wright  didn't win two national titles without getting great players and a bunch of pros.  However, 7 years is a significant sample size and I would argue this has been our most disappointing season during the Wojo era.  Accepting mediocrity or piss poor play yields mediocrity or college hoops irrelevance.   This team is a mess and on the road to nowhere right now.  It's terribly frustrating and we need to get this program back on track.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Yeah, but the problem is, Markus was here for four years, and during that whole time, we were not able to recruit talent to play alongside him.  The team we have now is the direct result of that.  As 4ever said, we have 3 Big East level players, none of whom was in the program last year.  It's an indictment of Wojo, not Markus.  But it's a big part of why we sit at 102 in the NET rankings this morning.

Fair enough. Still, we have to be the greatest BigEast team in history if we managed to win any games with only 3 BigEast level players. Does this say something for our potential going forward?

I watched last night's game with a close female friend who has a D2 guard daughter and has watched intently more basketball than almost all of us. I told her before the start of the game how so many of us, myself included, are losing patience with our coach.... after the game she said, it's the mark of well-coached team when you can stay in a game until the end, despite being outmanned at many positions. I laughed, as clearly Scoop would agree with second part of her statement. The first part, oh boy.