MUScoop

We ran this poor a while ago, but now ive been seeing lots of people joining the ranks of the nojosm Where does everyone stand now?

Not the time to be having this discussion. As I said in another thread, wait for the season to end.

Secondly, as I also noted, the impact of paying a severance agreement at time at Marquette would be THE Hiroshima to our basketball program . Nobody wants that.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=post;msg=1291200;topic=61137.25

Come on in, the water in the nojo pool is very nice.

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on December 24, 2020, 02:57:53 PM
Come on in, the water in the nojo pool is very nice.

Did you piss in it again?

Quote from: hairy worthen on December 24, 2020, 03:18:02 PM
Did you piss in it again?

Nah, wojo's the pool pisser.

I do not think it is good for the program to debate this every time we lose.

Quote from: bilsu on December 24, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
I do not think it is good for the program to debate this every time we lose.

Some even debate it when we win.  :(

On the plus side, I really don't think it affects the program. Every major program has message board fans that come out in droves when things don't go how they want. Heck, UCLA fans were pissed when they went to back to back Final Fours and didn't win it all.

Quote from: bilsu on December 24, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
I do not think it is good for the program to debate this every time we lose.

Are you one of those people who believe recruits read this forum and then base their choices on said forum?

The 1 vote for life is either Wojo or the AD.

Adios and da horse he rode inn on, hey?

It feels nice that bandwagon is getting more crowded. Welcome aboard, everyone.

Quote from: Goose on December 25, 2020, 07:33:04 AM
It feels nice that bandwagon is getting more crowded. Welcome aboard, everyone.

It's more like the sad-wagon.  Plus it's like one of those things that you can never un-see once you accept it. 

I remember my Nojo awakening- MLK Day 2017. Horrendous 2nd half showing at Butler.  I've never considered turning back as evidence of his incompetence has just kept piling up since. 

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 25, 2020, 07:03:16 AM
Adios and da horse he rode inn on, hey?

If only we could be so lucky.

I'm nojo-curious

Quote from: Goose on December 25, 2020, 07:33:04 AM
It feels nice that bandwagon is getting more crowded. Welcome aboard, everyone.

I don't think it will matter though. 

Quote from: cheese ball chaser on December 25, 2020, 08:13:08 AM
I'm nojo-curious

There are some people that are Bi-Jo. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

7.37 years ta judge, hey?

Dead man walking.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on December 25, 2020, 09:26:38 AM
Dead man walking.

dead men voted, and even the dead get paid. coach ain't goin' anywhere anytime soon.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 25, 2020, 08:56:14 AM
7.37 years ta judge, hey?

You can't judge the season with Henry Ellenson, cause you have to let a guy like that chuck it. Right?

Can't judge the living-or-dying by Markus, because those 4 years you had to let him chuck it...

So really this is Wojo's 2nd year, but it's a COVID season so you can't judge it.

In 5 more years we'll know if Wojo's got it or not it.

Wojo Blojo, eh!

Quote from: WhiteTrash on December 25, 2020, 09:26:38 AM
Dead man walking.

Aren't we all.

Quote from: bilsu on December 24, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
I do not think it is good for the program to debate this every time we lose.

It is not good for the program to fail essentially for 8 years.

Quote from: Class71 on December 26, 2020, 05:04:47 AM
It is not good for the program to fail essentially for 8 years.

Program?
What program?
It takes years, decades to build a program.
There are plenty of one year wonders, it's what makes college badketball so interesting.
Cinderella teams are what makes it.
College of Charleston, UNLV, Newark College of Engineering, Bucknell, Loyola, Marquette under Buzz, N.D., ha, a long and interesting list.  The "blue bloods" are another matter.

I'm jumping in just to offer one point and then leaving because we have way too many of these threads. Even if you're hard core nojo (and that's fine with me), please do not boo our head coach when fan attendance resumes. Sit on your hands, go to the washroom, gnash your teeth but do it in silence. Write a letter, send an email, cancel your season tickets, whatever. Booing our head coach when introduced is a bad look for prospective recruits and the athletic department staff, period. With that...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on December 26, 2020, 09:56:08 AMplease do not boo our head coach when fan attendance resumes. Sit on your hands, go to the washroom, gnash your teeth but do it in silence. Write a letter, send an email, cancel your season tickets, whatever. Booing our head coach when introduced is a bad look for prospective recruits and the athletic department staff, period. With that...

I've definitely shifted to the Nojo camp, but agree completely. There's nothing productive down that road.

Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on December 26, 2020, 09:56:08 AM
I'm jumping in just to offer one point and then leaving because we have way too many of these threads. Even if you're hard core nojo (and that's fine with me), please do not boo our head coach when fan attendance resumes. Sit on your hands, go to the washroom, gnash your teeth but do it in silence. Write a letter, send an email, cancel your season tickets, whatever. Booing our head coach when introduced is a bad look for prospective recruits and the athletic department staff, period. With that...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/giphy.gif)

The athletic department staff that keeps him employed deserves to be booed at the same volume. As for recruits - I don't care. I've been told by Projos that we are losing any and every recruit we had signed or interested if we fire Wojo so why would I care if my booing affects the attitude of his recruits?

He's tarnished the once-revered basketball reputation of my alma mater while collecting millions to do it. I'll keep booing him, thanks. Booing as a form of demonstration is a lot more noticeable (and triggering as your post makes clear) than a letter that probably won't even make it to the appropriate individual's inbox. You can call me a bad fan if that's your prerogative, I don't mind.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 26, 2020, 08:07:37 PM
The athletic department staff that keeps him employed deserves to be booed at the same volume. As for recruits - I don't care. I've been told by Projos that we are losing any and every recruit we had signed or interested if we fire Wojo so why would I care if my booing affects the attitude of his recruits?

He's tarnished the once-revered basketball reputation of my alma mater while collecting millions to do it. I'll keep booing him, thanks. Booing as a form of demonstration is a lot more noticeable (and triggering as your post makes clear) than a letter that probably won't even make it to the appropriate individual's inbox. You can call me a bad fan if that's your prerogative, I don't mind.

Lol

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 26, 2020, 08:07:37 PM
The athletic department staff that keeps him employed deserves to be booed at the same volume. As for recruits - I don't care. I've been told by Projos that we are losing any and every recruit we had signed or interested if we fire Wojo so why would I care if my booing affects the attitude of his recruits?

He's tarnished the once-revered basketball reputation of my alma mater while collecting millions to do it. I'll keep booing him, thanks. Booing as a form of demonstration is a lot more noticeable (and triggering as your post makes clear) than a letter that probably won't even make it to the appropriate individual's inbox. You can call me a bad fan if that's your prerogative, I don't mind.

The last coach had us in the national media for alleged rape and coverups, as well as half the team getting suspended for a nightclub fight. THAT is tarnishing the program, not what Wojo has done.

Oh, BTW, the MU program's reputation hadn't been "revered" as an elite program since the late 70's. Did you forget about the10 year gap in NCAA tournaments from 1982 to 1993?

Is it wrong for us to have a winning program like the Green Bay Packers who are good every year. We don't want to be like the Brewers or Bears that are doomed to mediocrity. We spend the second most money of all college basketball. Wtny can't we be a consistently strong program?

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 26, 2020, 08:31:23 PM
The last coach had us in the national media for alleged rape and coverups, as well as half the team getting suspended for a nightclub fight. THAT is tarnishing the program, not what Wojo has done.

Oh, BTW, the MU program's reputation hadn't been "revered" as an elite program since the late 70's. Did you forget about the10 year gap in NCAA tournaments from 1982 to 1993?

Yes - at least it can be debated that Wojo's basketball misfortunes are less than those of our darkest history 30-40 years ago! That's totally a point in the Projo column! Listen to yourself.

If you want to say "hey at least Wojo doesn't have scandals" - you can. But you're implying a false choice: either we win an NCAA tournament games OR the program stays out of the unsavory pages in the national media. We can do both. Plenty of programs do both. Wojo does not and cannot do both. I can see why you're so upset, though.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Is it wrong for us to have a winning program like the Green Bay Packers who are good every year. We don't want to be like the Brewers or Bears that are doomed to mediocrity. We spend the second most money of all college basketball. Wtny can't we be a consistently strong program?

That's an out-of-date figure, but it was always somewhat deceptive. We spent the second-most on basketball, but that's because many of the football schools put major expenditures such as new training or weight room facilities under the football budget. Here are more updated numbers (https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/11/17441968/ncaa-revenue-expense-statistics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major) from 2018 that have us 8th in expenditures, but I find it hard to believe Marquette is really putting more dollars toward their basketball program than UNC, Kansas, Michigan State, or many other big states schools. It's just that those basketball programs are able to benefit from things that fall under the football budget.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Is it wrong for us to have a winning program like the Green Bay Packers who are good every year. We don't want to be like the Brewers or Bears that are doomed to mediocrity. We spend the second most money of all college basketball. Wtny can't we be a consistently strong program?

You must not remember the 70s...or the 80s...or the first half of the 90s....

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 26, 2020, 08:44:24 PM
Yes - at least it can be debated that Wojo's basketball misfortunes are less than those of our darkest history 30-40 years ago! That's totally a point in the Projo column! Listen to yourself.

If you want to say "hey at least Wojo doesn't have scandals" - you can. But you're implying a false choice: either we win an NCAA tournament games OR the program stays out of the unsavory pages in the national media. We can do both. Plenty of programs do both. Wojo does not and cannot do both. I can see why you're so upset, though.

I'm actually not Projo." I'm not "Nojo" either, though I lean to that side.  But, you are acting as if we're DePaul, or St. John's, or current Georgetown, which we're not. You also act as if our program is a blue blood. Once Al retired and Miami of Ohio beat us in 1978 our program would never see the success of the 70's. College basketball changed.

Of course I want to be on Nova's level, but your claim that Wojo is responsible for our program not being "revered" anymore ignores reality and history. You must also be a Michigan football fan.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 26, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
I'm actually not Projo." I'm not "Nojo" either, though I lean to that side.  But, you are acting as if we're DePaul, or St. John's, or current Georgetown, which we're not. You also act as if our program is a blue blood. Once Al retired and Miami of Ohio beat us in 1978 our program would never see the success of the 70's. College basketball changed.

Of course I want to be on Nova's level, but your claim that Wojo is responsible for our program not being "revered" anymore ignores reality and history. You must also be a Michigan football fan.

You know there's levels of success between Villanova and DePaul right? Levels that include NCAA tournament runs, Big East tournament runs, and occasional conference titles while not winning 2 national championships and being a perennial top 5 team like Villanova right? You used the word blue blood, not me.

A program that goes to an Elite Eight, multiple Sweet Sixteens, and a Final Four in a ten-or-so year span is absolutely "revered" in the basketball world. If you disagree and you'd like to use a different word/words - "highly respected", "well recognized", "successful" - you're free to do that, but I didn't come here to flip through the Thesaurus with you.

In the seven years we've suffered through Wojo there hasn't even been one measly first round win. We've even, unfortunately, gotten to the point where one measly first round win can't offset what's been done to the program. No we aren't Georgetown, DePaul, or St John - but you just named the only three teams in the Big East you can actually say we're better than without having a decent debate.  DePaul then Georgetown then St. John then maybe Marquette - are you proud of this? And no one here is setting baseline expectations at the Nova program. To imply that is to create a disingenuous strawman and shows that you don't even truly know what you're arguing against.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 26, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
You know there's levels of success between Villanova and DePaul right? Levels that include NCAA tournament runs, Big East tournament runs, and occasional conference titles while not winning 2 national championships and being a perennial top 5 team like Villanova right? You used the word blue blood, not me.

A program that goes to an Elite Eight, multiple Sweet Sixteens, and a Final Four in a ten-or-so year span is absolutely "revered" in the basketball world. If you disagree and you'd like to use a different word/words - "highly respected", "well recognized", "successful" - you're free to do that, but I didn't come here to flip through the Thesaurus with you.

In the seven years we've suffered through Wojo there hasn't even been one measly first round win. We've even, unfortunately, gotten to the point where one measly first round win can't offset what's been done to the program. No we aren't Georgetown, DePaul, or St John - but you just named the only three teams in the Big East you can actually say we're better than without having a decent debate.  DePaul then Georgetown then St. John then maybe Marquette - are you proud of this? And no one here is setting baseline expectations at the Nova program. To imply that is to create a disingenuous strawman and shows that you don't even truly know what you're arguing against.

Yeah, at this point, I think everybody's realistic enough to know that we'll never again achieve the heights of the 70s.  But Crean/Buzz level success?  That's absolutely attainable, and should be the standard for the program.  For some reason, Wojo has never been held to that standard.

In six seasons under Buzz, we finished in the AP Top 25 three times.  Under Crean, it was four times in nine seasons.  Revered, highly respected, well recognized, use whatever term you want.  Those guys had us in the Top 25 to end the year 50% of the time.  That's about right for a program like Marquette.  And we have *never* done it under Wojo.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 26, 2020, 08:31:23 PM
The last coach had us in the national media for alleged rape and coverups, as well as half the team getting suspended for a nightclub fight. THAT is tarnishing the program, not what Wojo has done.

Oh, BTW, the MU program's reputation hadn't been "revered" as an elite program since the late 70's. Did you forget about the10 year gap in NCAA tournaments from 1982 to 1993?

I'm not so sure it was "revered" even then, and BTW, I was there, here.  Al was revered, not "the so-called" program.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Is it wrong for us to have a winning program like the Green Bay Packers who are good every year. We don't want to be like the Brewers or Bears that are doomed to mediocrity. We spend the second most money of all college basketball. Wtny can't we be a consistently strong program?

Because patience is not our strong suit.  It takes time, a lot of time, to build a program.  After Vince it took the Pac a long time to get back.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 26, 2020, 11:51:02 PM
Yeah, at this point, I think everybody's realistic enough to know that we'll never again achieve the heights of the 70s.  But Crean/Buzz level success?  That's absolutely attainable, and should be the standard for the program.  For some reason, Wojo has never been held to that standard.

In six seasons under Buzz, we finished in the AP Top 25 three times.  Under Crean, it was four times in nine seasons.  Revered, highly respected, well recognized, use whatever term you want.  Those guys had us in the Top 25 to end the year 50% of the time.  That's about right for a program like Marquette.  And we have *never* done it under Wojo.

HELP!

I need a stats guy.
How many years did it take Al McGuire to reach the top?
How many years did the so-called program remain at the top?
How many decades did it take to get back to the top?
How long did we stay at the top this time?
Please, just the facts mam., just the facts.
Enough bullshit history.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
HELP!

I need a stats guy.
How many years did it take Al McGuire to reach the top?
How many years did the so-called program remain at the top?
How many decades did it take to get back to the top?
How long did we stay at the top this time?
Please, just the facts mam., just the facts.
Enough bullcrap history.

You're going off the deep end this time eh?

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
HELP!

I need a stats guy.
How many years did it take Al McGuire to reach the top?
How many years did the so-called program remain at the top?
How many decades did it take to get back to the top?
How long did we stay at the top this time?
Please, just the facts mam., just the facts.
Enough bullcrap history.

I think the "stats guy" you're after is named google.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 08:54:20 AM
Because patience is not our strong suit.  It takes time, a lot of time, to build a program.  After Vince it took the Pac a long time to get back.

Umm, what?  In 1991, the Packers hired Ron Wolf as GM.  By 1993, they were going to the playoffs every single year.

So, it took 2 years, once competent leadership was put in place.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 09:31:18 AM
Umm, what?  In 1991, the Packers hired Ron Wolf as GM.  By 1993, they were going to the playoffs every single year.

So, it took 2 years, once competent leadership was put in place.

And it only took them 25 years to figure out how to find competent leadership....

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 27, 2020, 09:42:01 AM


And it only took them 25 years to figure out how to find competent leadership....

Not to mention the draft, sometimes you have to be a loser before you can become a winner.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 09:12:03 AM
I think the "stats guy" you're after is named google.

Not when you lived it.
The stats guy is only needed for the argumentative guys who are detail focused.  You know, the lawyer types or engineers. 
I use google for something I don't know.
History lived is different from history studied.

Quote from: #UnleashDiener on December 27, 2020, 09:01:17 AM
You're going off the deep end this time eh?

Yes, in a way I am.
Nothing new there.
Otherwise we keep going around in circles.
Lots of half baked opinion, little fact.
Nothing wrong with opinions, but some facts would help with making informed opinion.
The bighest myth around here is that Al McGuire hit the ground running at Marquette and was a winner from the get go.
Second myth is that he created a program that has lasted 50 years.
The fact is that he retired from coaching because he could no longer recruit the players he needed.  In otherwords, no program.
Many people around here think WOJO is killing our program when in fact he is only starting a sustainable prpgram.  Granted with a few false starts.
Now that he learned his lesson about Wiscon basketball is no time to pull the rug.
When I went to games in Milwaukee we played SLU, Detroit, Loyola, and South Dakota.
But for the Big East we would still be playing in the G or B or D  league.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 26, 2020, 11:51:02 PM
Yeah, at this point, I think everybody's realistic enough to know that we'll never again achieve the heights of the 70s.  But Crean/Buzz level success?  That's absolutely attainable, and should be the standard for the program.  For some reason, Wojo has never been held to that standard.

In six seasons under Buzz, we finished in the AP Top 25 three times.  Under Crean, it was four times in nine seasons.  Revered, highly respected, well recognized, use whatever term you want.  Those guys had us in the Top 25 to end the year 50% of the time.  That's about right for a program like Marquette.  And we have *never* done it under Wojo.

I respectfully disagree, we can reach that level, however it will take time.
Rome wasn't built in a day.  Italy wasn't built in a day.
I would love to see the WOJO plan, sales pitch.  His power point must be something.

If WOJO should have been let go it was after he wasted his time recruiting in Wisconsin.  Buzz made the same mistake before he settled on Texas.  Must be the warter or the BOT.

What happened to the UCLA program after coach Wooden?
What will happen to the Duke program after coach K?
What happened to the Georgetown or St. John's programs?
What will happen to Vilanova after Jay Wright?

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Not when you lived it.
The stats guy is only needed for the argumentative guys who are detail focused.  You know, the lawyer types or engineers. 
I use google for something I don't know.
History lived is different from history studied.

So if you lived it,  why are you asking for stats guy?

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 10:49:53 AM
So if you lived it,  why are you asking for stats guy?

For guys like you.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 10:55:44 AM
For guys like you.

You're going to lose a lot of people trying to compare college basketball in the 60's and 70's to present day.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Is it wrong for us to have a winning program like the Green Bay Packers who are good every year. We don't want to be like the Brewers or Bears that are doomed to mediocrity. We spend the second most money of all college basketball. Wtny can't we be a consistently strong program?

If you think Marquette spends the second most money in all of college basketball, you're delusional.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 11:05:00 AM
You're going to lose a lot of people trying to compare college basketball in the 60's and 70's to present day.

Not my point.
I'm talking about myths, and delusions.
Basically the main differences between then and now is technology.
Jet travel, cable t.v., conditioning, rules, arena size, larger staff, analytics, expanded AAU, NBA, expanded division 1 basketball, larger tournament, higher prices, come to mind off the top of my flat head.
I'm sure there are many more.
I think we are talking about building organizations, staffing, culture, sustainability, leadership, planning, stratigic thinking, lessons learned, and corrective actions.
My other point is that Marquette has come a long way.  The quick fix with a new saviour is no way to build a so-called program.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 11:22:05 AM
Not my point.
I'm talking about myths, and delusions.
Basically the main differences between then and now is technology.
Jet travel, cable t.v., conditioning, rules, arena size, larger staff, analytics, expanded AAU, NBA, expanded division 1 basketball, larger tournament, higher prices, come to mind off the top of my flat head.
I'm sure there are many more.
I think we are talking about building organizations, staffing, culture, sustainability, leadership, planning, stratigic thinking, lessons learned, and corrective actions.
My other point is that Marquette has come a long way.  The quick fix with a new saviour is no way to build a so-called program.

I think your posts are wildly amusing. They make almost no sense but are hilarious.

From what I gathered, you're trying to relate coaching basketball to working in the private sector. What company would keep an employee in a results position when he constantly fails to reach attainable metrics?

All while other, newer employees have met or surpassed those metrics?

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 11:22:05 AM
Not my point.
I'm talking about myths, and delusions.
Basically the main differences between then and now is technology.
Jet travel, cable t.v., conditioning, rules, arena size, larger staff, analytics, expanded AAU, NBA, expanded division 1 basketball, larger tournament, higher prices, come to mind off the top of my flat head.
I'm sure there are many more.
I think we are talking about building organizations, staffing, culture, sustainability, leadership, planning, stratigic thinking, lessons learned, and corrective actions.
My other point is that Marquette has come a long way.  The quick fix with a new saviour is no way to build a so-called program.

My sophomore year (66-67) the administration wouldn't let keep my horse on campus so I had to take the wagon train from New Jersey to Wisconsin every year thereafter.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
From what I gathered, you're trying to relate coaching basketball to working in the private sector. What company would keep an employee in a results position when he constantly fails to reach attainable metrics?

All while other, newer employees have met or surpassed those metrics?

Wojo has met his attainable metrics every year until last year. That's why he's on thinner ice this year.

I don't know what other newer employees you are referring to but we've done this exercise before where we've compared Wojo's results to the other coaches MU could have reasonably hired instead of him. Wojo has outperformed them all with the possible exception of Mike White at Florida, and even his results have been underwhelming at times. Now, that doesn't mean that if we hired one of the others that they wouldn't have had better results with our program, that's impossible to know. But with the information we do have, there was no slam dunk hire that we missed that year.

Wojo has been good. Not great. Which kind of sucks as a fan.

The standard at Marquette during Crean and buzz was never this low.

When there were down seasons, the program quickly rebounded within a year or two. We had an identity within the program. We consistently put players in the nba. We earned high seeds in the tournament. We overachieved when expectations were lower.

We're sticking with a guy who has proven unable to do any of the above because he's barely reaching the lowered expectations.

But the BOT has a much broader set of metrics, post Buzz.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
But the BOT has a much broader set of metrics, post Buzz.

I do wonder how much longer those broader set of metrics last.

He scored big points getting out in front supporting his players last spring.   He is navigating through COVID.   His players are high character.   If he averages 19-20 wins a year, as he has since the first year, and continues to run a clean, high character program and represent the university well...


Indefinitely.

Fun thread.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
The standard at Marquette during Crean and buzz was never this low.

No, the standard was the same, possibly lower for Crean. If Crean and Buzz accomplished on the court what Wojo did they would not have been fired. They just exceeded expectations, both are better coaches than Wojo at this point.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
When there were down seasons, the program quickly rebounded within a year or two.

We've had two down seasons under Wojo. One was due to the roster he inherited and he had us in the tournament within 2 seasons. The second he immediately had us back in the tournament the following season with a 5-seed. So Wojo has met your standard.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
We consistently put players in the nba.

This is for sure an area Crean and Buzz have Wojo beat in. It is also not on any list of attainable measurements that Wojo is being judged on.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
We earned high seeds in the tournament.

Crean: NIT, Nothing, 5 seed, 3 seed, NIT, NIT, 7 seed, 8 seed, 6 seed
Buzz: 6 seed, 6 seed, 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed, Nothing

It depends on your definition of high seed but I think you might be misremembering how good we were. Don't get me wrong, those were very good years, I enjoyed them immensely. But those that think we were on the verge of becoming an elite program are fooling themselves.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
We overachieved when expectations were lower.

I don't really have a way to measure this but my recollection is that this isn't as true as your making it out to be. I remember feeling like we overachieved in Crean's third year and the first year of the three amigos. I also remember feeling like we overachieved in Lazar's senior year (Buzz year 2). Otherwise, I feel like we pretty much played to expectation...until Buzz' last year where we were expected to win the BEast and ended up missing the NIT.

The one attainable metric where Wojo has failed is winning in March. He's had two opportunities and had third taken from him. Hopefully he gets that monkey off his back this season.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 01:30:48 PM
He scored big points getting out in front supporting his players last spring.   He is navigating through COVID.   His players are high character.   If he averages 19-20 wins a year, as he has since the first year, and continues to run a clean, high character program and represent the university well...


Indefinitely.

The majority of coaches in the country can put all of that on their resume. Nothing unique to him.

Your point?   How many coaches are unique?   Only the legends.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 01:30:48 PM
He scored big points getting out in front supporting his players last spring.   He is navigating through COVID.   His players are high character.   If he averages 19-20 wins a year, as he has since the first year, and continues to run a clean, high character program and represent the university well...


Indefinitely.

If the season ticket holders grow tired of the same product and on court issues leading to middle of the conference results, and decide it is no longer must see tv(which it isn't for a lot of us) I believe the BOT will take notice. That rent ain't cheap!.....even with 19-11 seasons year after year.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 02:02:31 PM
Your point?   How many coaches are unique?   Only the legends.

Why point to those facts as a feather in his cap when 80-90% of his colleagues are doing the same thing?

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 02:02:31 PM
Your point?   How many coaches are unique?   Only the legends.

Stu.

Wojo.
1. He navigated through covid.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2020, 01:57:56 PM
No, the standard was the same, possibly lower for Crean. If Crean and Buzz accomplished on the court what Wojo did they would not have been fired. They just exceeded expectations, both are better coaches than Wojo at this point.

We've had two down seasons under Wojo. One was due to the roster he inherited and he had us in the tournament within 2 seasons. The second he immediately had us back in the tournament the following season with a 5-seed. So Wojo has met your standard.

This is for sure an area Crean and Buzz have Wojo beat in. It is also not on any list of attainable measurements that Wojo is being judged on.

Crean: NIT, Nothing, 5 seed, 3 seed, NIT, NIT, 7 seed, 8 seed, 6 seed
Buzz: 6 seed, 6 seed, 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed, Nothing

It depends on your definition of high seed but I think you might be misremembering how good we were. Don't get me wrong, those were very good years, I enjoyed them immensely. But those that think we were on the verge of becoming an elite program are fooling themselves.

I don't really have a way to measure this but my recollection is that this isn't as true as your making it out to be. I remember feeling like we overachieved in Crean's third year and the first year of the three amigos. I also remember feeling like we overachieved in Lazar's senior year (Buzz year 2). Otherwise, I feel like we pretty much played to expectation...until Buzz' last year where we were expected to win the BEast and ended up missing the NIT.

The one attainable metric where Wojo has failed is winning in March. He's had two opportunities and had third taken from him. Hopefully he gets that monkey off his back this season.

Wojo has earned a 6 seed once, with his best team, and the team blew up due to serious chemistry issues.

Otherwise it's been .500 records in conference and 9/10 seeds in the years he's made the tournament.

There's really no comparison. Crean won double digit games in the old BE several times, while also going to a final four. Buzz may have underachieved a couple of times during the season and then made up for it with runs in the tournament.

Aside from a stretch early to mid 2019 season, he's done nothing in the regular season or in the post season to differentiate himself or earn himself the right to down seasons.

We can all go through point by point and enumerate Wojo's failings. And we do, ad infinitum.  Fanboard.   But Fanboard opinions are just that.   The BOT wanted the anti-Buzz.   They got him.  Fanboards complain, but Wojo averaged 20 wins a year, years 2-6.   His guys make positive news off the court.   

Unless there is a scandal, he is more likely to leave than be fired for, IMO, at least another two years.   

And when he leaves/is fired, my money is on Wardle.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 02:16:35 PM
We can all go through point by point and enumerate Wojo's failings. And we do, ad infinitum.  Fanboard.   But Fanboard opinions are just that.   The BOT wanted the anti-Buzz.   They got him.  Fanboards complain, but Wojo averaged 20 wins a year, years 2-6.   His guys make positive news off the court.   

Unless there is a scandal, he is more likely to leave than be fired for, IMO, at least another two years.   

And when he leaves/is fired, my money is on Wardle.

Wardle or Otzelberger

Quote from: We R Final Four on December 27, 2020, 02:06:16 PM
Wojo.
1. He navigated through covid.

When a coaches greatest accomplishments all have nothing to do with winning basketball games you know you have a great guy, but a bad coach.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 02:18:28 PM
Wardle or Otzelberger

UNLV is 1-4 including a 13 point loss to Montana State. Their only win is over Kansas State, who lost to a terrible D2 school that didn't have their top 2 coaches doe the game.

But yeah. Let's get him!

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 02:47:41 PM
UNLV is 1-4 including a 13 point loss to Montana State. Their only win is over Kansas State, who lost to a terrible D2 school that didn't have their top 2 coaches doe the game.

But yeah. Let's get him!

8-8 his first season at SDSU followed by 13-1 and 14-2 records in conference. He went 12-6 in conference last season.

Big time assistant at Iowa State before taking SDSU job. Milwaukee guy with strong ties Midwest ties.

But yea. Let's look at a five game stretch this season!

He's a strong candidate.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 03:00:47 PM
8-8 his first season at SDSU followed by 13-1 and 14-2 records in conference. He went 12-6 in conference last season.

Big time assistant at Iowa State before taking SDSU job. Milwaukee guy with strong ties Midwest ties.

But yea. Let's look at a five game stretch this season!

He's a strong candidate.

Congrats to him for inheriting the best player that will ever play in that program's history.

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
Congrats to him for inheriting the best player that will ever play in that program's history.

You must not be familiar with the history of unlv basketball if you think Bryce Hamilton is the best player in the history of the program.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 03:14:17 PM
You must not be familiar with the history of unlv basketball if you think Bryce Hamilton is the best player in the history of the program.

There's this guy named Mike Daum. You could've put the MU Intramural C League champion around him and SDSU would've won their conference every year TJ was coaching him.

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:19:29 PM
There's this guy named Mike Daum. You could've put the MU Intramural C League champion around him and SDSU would've won their conference every year TJ was coaching him.

I bet with Wojo they'd go 8-10 in conference.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 03:21:11 PM
I bet with Wojo they'd go 8-10 in conference.

Like I said. If we want to take a guy who took over a program that went 17-14 2 years ago and has them at 1-4 with a 13 point loss to Montana State because he dominated a low, low major conference by inheriting the best player to ever play in that conference, I'm all in. Totally convinced. Sure fire stud to get us back to where Scoop demands. No more tainting the beautiful reputation of our beloved MUBB. TJ is the man for the job.

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:19:29 PM
There's this guy named Mike Daum. You could've put the MU Intramural C League champion around him and SDSU would've won their conference every year TJ was coaching him.

So what? If you want to use extremely simple logic - Wojo basically played .500 basketball in conference during Howard's four years.

What does that say about Wojo?

Larry Johnson still has eligibility left? Hoo new, hey?

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 03:38:12 PM
So what? If you want to use extremely simple logic - Wojo basically played .500 basketball in conference during Howard's four years.

What does that say about Wojo?

It says he had a high major player that he recruited in a high major league. Compared to a high major player being inherited in a low, low major league.

But you and 5dollar have convinced me. He had UNLV (a program with a prouder history than Marquette) just rolling. Bring him in ASAP. Before it's too late and Kentucky gets to him please!

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:41:58 PM
It says he had a high major player that he recruited in a high major league. Compared to a high major player being inherited in a low, low major league.

But you and 5dollar have convinced me. He had UNLV (a program with a prouder history than Marquette) just rolling. Bring him in ASAP. Before it's too late and Kentucky gets to him please!

Or by the logic you used re TJO and Daum, he should have cake walked through the BE because he had the best player in the league.

Head to the bench buddy, you've embarrassed yourself here.

The soonest Wojo would likely get fired is the spring of '22. By then, Otzelberger will have more of a record at UNLV so we will be better able to compare him and Wardle.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 02:16:35 PM
We can all go through point by point and enumerate Wojo's failings. And we do, ad infinitum.  Fanboard.   But Fanboard opinions are just that.   The BOT wanted the anti-Buzz.   They got him.  Fanboards complain, but Wojo averaged 20 wins a year, years 2-6.   His guys make positive news off the court.   

Unless there is a scandal, he is more likely to leave than be fired for, IMO, at least another two years.   

And when he leaves/is fired, my money is on Wardle.

Don't mistake a significant drop off in season ticket holders the same as complaining on a fanboard. Some scoopers are season ticket holders, and will not renew. The rest of you post I agree with.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 03:44:40 PM
Or by the logic you used re TJO and Daum, he should have cake walked through the BE because he had the best player in the league.

Head to the bench buddy, you've embarrassed yourself here.

Lol. Claiming Markus was to the Big East what Mike Daum was to the Summit League.

Yup. I'm the one embarrassing myself. Lol

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:29:22 PM
I'm all in. Totally convinced. Sure fire stud to get us back to where Scoop demands. No more tainting the beautiful reputation of our beloved MUBB. TJ is the man for the job.

Not necessarily an argument for TJ from me here but why is our only option a "sure fire stud"?

Coaching searches inherently involve risk. I'm sure when Wright was hired at Nova he wasn't recognized as a "sure fire stud". Same with most other elite coaches when they were first hired.

At some point our program has to have the gumption to push our chips to the center and recognize that Wojo is not meeting the standard. As with Poker, you can check and call your way out of a game, without ever playing a hand.  That's what we're doing with Wojo now.  We must at least TRY for a different coach that may meet and exceed the standard this basketball program has.

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 03:53:54 PM
Lol. Claiming Markus was to the Big East what Mike Daum was to the Summit League.

Yup. I'm the one embarrassing myself. Lol

Not only that, but also saying Bryce Hamilton is one of the best players in unlv history.

Take a knee buddy

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Not only that, but also saying Bryce Hamilton is one of the best players in unlv history.

Take a knee buddy

Who said that? Lol. Again, I'm the one embarrassing myself lol.

You did get one thing right though. TJ is the man for the job. Has a storied program just rolling right now.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Not necessarily an argument for TJ from me here but why is our only option a "sure fire stud"?

Coaching searches inherently involve risk. I'm sure when Wright was hired at Nova he wasn't recognized as a "sure fire stud". Same with most other elite coaches when they were first hired.

At some point our program has to have the gumption to push our chips to the center and recognize that Wojo is not meeting the standard. As with Poker, you can check and call your way out of a game, without ever playing a hand.  That's what we're doing with Wojo now.  We must at least TRY for a different coach that may meet and exceed the standard this basketball program has.

I think it's really important for our next hire to have a true passion for MU hoops, the city of Milwaukee and recruiting relationships around the Midwest. Along with success at previous head coaching stops.

We have two very good options that fit the bill to a T.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 26, 2020, 11:51:02 PM
Yeah, at this point, I think everybody's realistic enough to know that we'll never again achieve the heights of the 70s.  But Crean/Buzz level success?  That's absolutely attainable, and should be the standard for the program.  For some reason, Wojo has never been held to that standard.

In six seasons under Buzz, we finished in the AP Top 25 three times.  Under Crean, it was four times in nine seasons.  Revered, highly respected, well recognized, use whatever term you want.  Those guys had us in the Top 25 to end the year 50% of the time.  That's about right for a program like Marquette.  And we have *never* done it under Wojo.

i think you might be underselling MU to some extent. I'm typically aligned with you re: Wojo, but what are the reasons MU can't be Villanova? Let's say Tony Bennett is coaching MU. Would Marquette still be a top 25 team seasons-end just half the time? Wojo is a problem for all the reasons so many have opined, but is there something else that holds Marquette back from being Villanova's equal?

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 27, 2020, 03:44:52 PM
The soonest Wojo would likely get fired is the spring of '22. By then, Otzelberger will have more of a record at UNLV so we will be better able to compare him and Wardle.

Otzelberger has worked with Greg McDermott, Fred Hoiberg, Lorenzo Romar in the Big 12 and Pac 12. Multiple personalities and multiple geographies. He's had successful head coaching experience at South Dakota St. with two first place finishes in three seasons and two NCAA appearances. He had a 2nd place finish at UNLV his first season there. This is his 2nd.

Brian Wardle at Green Bay, had top 3 finishes his third through fifth seasons after rebuilding. He's trying to do that at Bradley. Last year, his fifth at Bradley, was Wardle's first top four league team, which finished 3rd. It was also the first time in five years his team had a winning league record. And it was his 2nd straight NCAA team.

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 04:09:22 PM
I think it's really important for our next hire to have a true passion for MU hoops, the city of Milwaukee and recruiting relationships around the Midwest. Along with success at previous head coaching stops.

We have two very good options that fit the bill to a T.

Agreed on all those fronts. None of that was my argument, though.

Quote from: Marq3332 on December 27, 2020, 04:13:33 PM
Is there something else that holds Marquette back from being Villanova's equal?

Projos

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 04:09:22 PM
I think it's really important for our next hire to have a true passion for MU hoops, the city of Milwaukee and recruiting relationships around the Midwest. Along with success at previous head coaching stops.

We have two very good options that fit the bill to a T.

You mean like Al? Had a losing record last year at Belmont Abbey.  ::)

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 04:45:11 PM
Projos on the BOT

FIFY

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
HELP!

I need a stats guy.
How many years did it take Al McGuire to reach the top?
How many years did the so-called program remain at the top?
How many decades did it take to get back to the top?
How long did we stay at the top this time?
Please, just the facts mam., just the facts.
Enough bullcrap history.

Didn't see anyone take a shot at answering these, and there's almost certainly many more people much more qualified to answer these than me, and being I have to work in about 11 hours, may not be able to respond to everything in the debate, but I'll give it a shot.

McGuire made NIT final in 4th year, which definitely meant something in 1967.
This one's debatable. Could say through 77, end of Al. Could say through 78, loss to Miami OH. Could say through '79 when made Sweet 16 but lost to DePaul. Could say through '82 when won a tourney game but lost in 2nd round 73-69 to 2 seed Missouri.
2  to 2 1/2 decades depending upon previous answer. I'll say '94 was a more a one-time run than anything extended. Very possibly different answer if O' Neill stays. But he didn't.
I'll say 10 years. Crean gets a couple-year pass after making a Final 4. Then gets back to making tourney every year and back to winning a tourney game, and nearly making a Sweet 16 if Lopez doesn't make a Hail Mary of a shot that was perfectly defended by Burke. Brent continues tourney streak, then starts making 2nd weekends, then starts advancing in 2nd week.

Best I can do. Sorry these aren't the black-and-white answers other than the 1st one IMHO.

I've said this before and I am going to say it one more time:

1) Basketball is a major source of income, net, for Marquette University.

2) As long as the television revenue stays strong, as long as most of the season tickets renew every year and as long as there continues to be fan interest in Marquette basketball, Wojo is going no where.

3) The fact that we are in our fourth take on this matter shows there is still fan interest in Marquette basketball. The existence of this Board, the Dodds Board, Anonymous Eagle and Cracked Sidewalks all points to strong interest in Marquette basketball.

Some of you have pointed out that we want a winner every year. So do Cub fans! But the reality was that the ownership for much of the last hundred years was more interested in profits than they were in winning baseball. The Tribune Company, for example, probably did a cost-benefit analysis when it bought the Cubs in 1982. The question was the revenue and expenses of Cubs baseball compared to the revenue and expenses of three hours of purchased programming 160 days a year. As long as people watched the show and advertisers bought in, nobody cared whether the Cubs were good.

For Marquette, as long as basketball is profitable and as long as the donations keep coming in, the question will always be whether the cost of being a blueblood program and putting up with the quirky personalities of people like Al McGuire, Kevin O'Neill, TV Tommy and Buzz the Redneck is worth the incremental revenue generated from these folks' work. My fear is that we're at an inflection point where the BOT says it's just not worth it.

P.S. -- Nobody is going be tossed in a Covid year. At a minimum, you Nojoers will have one more season with the current coach. I hope he wins everybody over!

Quote from: panda on December 27, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Not only that, but also saying Bryce Hamilton is one of the best players in unlv history.

Take a knee buddy

BLM was referring to Daum at SoDakST, not Hamilton at UNLV. He never mentioned Hamilton—you did. He mentioned Daum several times....and you keep suggesting that he said Hamilton.....which he did not.

Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 05:07:21 PM
FIFY

Correct - good fix.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Not necessarily an argument for TJ from me here but why is our only option a "sure fire stud"?

Coaching searches inherently involve risk. I'm sure when Wright was hired at Nova he wasn't recognized as a "sure fire stud". Same with most other elite coaches when they were first hired.

At some point our program has to have the gumption to push our chips to the center and recognize that Wojo is not meeting the standard. As with Poker, you can check and call your way out of a game, without ever playing a hand.  That's what we're doing with Wojo now.  We must at least TRY for a different coach that may meet and exceed the standard this basketball program has.

I agree with you on most of this.

When the time comes to make a change - and though some Scoopers believe the time came years ago, the trustees are all that matter - we almost surely will not get some big-name hire. Though more than a few Scoopers claim that proven NCAA-tourney-game-winning coaches with totally clean reputations will be beating down the doors to coach at MU, I'll believe that when I see it.

We almost certainly will either get some program's top assistant (O'Neill, Crean, Wojo) or some non-P6-conference head coach (Dukiet, Deane), as we have for decades. (Buzz was unique, in that he was a guy who bounced around from program to program as an assistant, had one losing year as a low-level head coach, and then was an assistant at MU for one year before getting promoted. If we promoted a guy with that background now, Scoop probably would implode.)

We almost got Shaka, but even though he was a highly successful non-P6 coach, he still fit that profile. And we didn't get him.

Can TJO win at Marquette? Maybe, maybe not. I'd feel better about his chances if he could bring DJO with him!

Wardle? Makes sense for a lot of reasons. Who knows if he can win at this level, though?

But, as you said, unless a proven, NCAA-tourney-game-winning coach decides he wants to eat Leon's Frozen Custard every day, we almost certainly will not hire a "sure fire stud."

So it will be a roll of the dice. Maybe we'll get the next Buzz or KO or Crean; maybe we'll get the next Dukiet. But that fact shouldn't stop the BOT from making a change if warranted, and neither should the prospect of losing recruits or current players.

Those will be some interesting Scoop discussions when we actually have an opening. For better or worse (and it seems most feel "for worse"), that opening is highly unlikely to happen after this season.

Quote from: We R Final Four on December 27, 2020, 05:27:03 PM
BLM was referring to Daum at SoDakST, not Hamilton at UNLV. He never mentioned Hamilton—you did. He mentioned Daum several times....and you keep suggesting that he said Hamilton.....which he did not.

Hand up - I'll take a knee for reading too quickly and mistakenly thinking he was talking about UNLV.

Having said that, stepping in and taking a good team and at the BARE minimum, maintaining their status, is no reason to discredit a coach.

All while sticking up for another coach, who hasn't come close to maintaining it's program status...

QuoteIf Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

Quote from: BLM on December 27, 2020, 02:04:45 PM
Stu.

This made me smile.

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 27, 2020, 08:10:10 PM

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

Um... yes? What is "slipping in" two Sweet Sixteen appearances?? Haha. That would literally be the difference between something and nothing in his tenure here.

"Slipped in 2 sweet sixteens" I'm literally laughing at you.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 08:42:10 PM
Um... yes? What is "slipping in" two Sweet Sixteen appearances?? Haha. That would literally be the difference between something and nothing in his tenure here.

"Slipped in 2 sweet sixteens" I'm literally laughing at you.

I think you once posted that you weren't in school for any success so I'll translate. There's a huge difference between the 2011 sweet 16 where we slipped in there after a frustrating season vs the 2012 sweet 16 where that was the floor for expectations.

I believe the hypothetical was if Wojo had a couple 2011 seasons (which he has regular season wise)

Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 27, 2020, 08:55:32 PM
I think you once posted that you weren't in school for any success so I'll translate. There's a huge difference between the 2011 sweet 16 where we slipped in there after a frustrating season vs the 2012 sweet 16 where that was the floor for expectations.

I believe the hypothetical was if Wojo had a couple 2011 seasons (which he has regular season wise)

If Wojo miraculously turned a couple of crummy seasons into a couple of absolving Sweet Sixteen appearances would we have a different perception of him? Likely. But the question itself is an irrelevant joke because that's exactly what HASN'T happened.

If the Packers went to the Super Bowl the year McCarthy was fired would we have kept McCarthy? Umm probably but that didn't happen so why would we begin to debate hypotheticals that give him credit for something like that?

It's an awful take honestly.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Not when you lived it.
The stats guy is only needed for the argumentative guys who are detail focused.  You know, the lawyer types or engineers. 
I use google for something I don't know.
History lived is different from history studied.

Vogue

You lived it, but evidently the "fog of war" you like to talk about played games with your perceptions. Al McGuire inherited a program in shambles. We were 5-21 in 1962-63, the year before he took over. Contrary to your assertions, he did "hit the ground running". Modest improvement in year one (8-18), major improvements in years two (14-12) and three (21-9, NIT runner up). Years 4-13 were "seashells and balloons". Over that 10 year span we were 252-41 and finished in the top 10 in each of the final 9 years. We were invited to the dance in all of those 10 years. One year Al said no and we won the NIT title. In 9 NCAA tournaments appearances we had 1 first round loss, 4 S16s, 2 E8s and 2 FF (1 National runner up, 1 National Championship).

I lived it, too, Vogue. It wasn't a slow recovery. It was a rocket ship. His first AA (George Thompson) arrived in year two, his second (Dean Meminger) in year four. The day The Dream announced for MU it sealed the deal. MU was going uptown - and what a trip it was!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:19:22 PM
Vogue

You lived it, but evidently the "fog of war" you like to talk about played games with your perceptions. Al McGuire inherited a program in shambles. We were 5-21 in 1962-63, the year before he took over. Contrary to your assertions, he did "hit the ground running". Modest improvement in year one (8-18), major improvements in years two (14-12) and three (21-9, NIT runner up). Years 4-13 were "seashells and balloons". Over that 10 year span we were 252-41 and finished in the top 10 in each of the final 9 years. We were invited to the dance in all of those 10 years. One year Al said no and we won the NIT title. In 9 NCAA tournaments appearances we had 1 first round loss, 4 S16s, 2 E8s and 2 FF (1 National runner up, 1 National Championship).

I lived it, too, Vogue. It wasn't a slow recovery. It was a rocket ship. His first AA (George Thompson) arrived in year two, his second (Dean Meminger) in year four. The day The Dream announced for MU it sealed the deal. MU was going uptown - and what a trip it was!

Absolutely accurate, Lenny. Oh those were wondrous years orchestrated by the mad hatter, Al McGuire. One of a kind who some of us still remember with great fondness. For me, 3 stand out above all others. Al shedding a tear at the end of the NC win, winning the title; MU winning the NIT in 70 after rejecting the NCAA snub offer; and my favorite, Al standing on the table inciting the Whisky crowd with old man Hughes flipping him the bird.
Those were truly great times to be a Warrior fan
Al was one of a kind who put MU on the map of college basketball

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 09:07:58 PMIt's an awful take honestly.

Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

Because Wardle is an alum, doesn't justify his hiring, hey?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:33:57 AM
Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

The difference is, 2 Sweet Sixteens would literally define Wojo's tenure through 7 years should he have gone to them, regardless of whether they came from the 11 seed line or the 3 seed line.

He hasn't done it and it's been a huge problem. Therefore to use the phraseology "oh what if Wojo just slipped in a couple Sweet Sixteens??" is completely asinine and an embarrassing and dangerous game of mental gymnastics to denigrate one of the three main forms (NCAAT, conference, conference tourney) of tangible success a college basketball can possibly have.

And yeah I get that we weren't explicitly propping up Wojo with these takes but let's be honest - why else would we need to have this conversation if it weren't to prop up Wojo.

It's an awful take.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2020, 07:37:39 AM
Because Wardle is an alum, doesn't justify his hiring, hey?

I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:45:20 AM
I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

I think it's extremely important to make a long term hire in this spot as well. It's hard to find for a program like MU (or 90% of other schools) to find a guy that makes their job, the destination job.

Wardle has had head coaching success at two different, difficult stops and one would think he wouldn't use MU as a stepping stone. If the BOT and the university truly believes in their long term thinking, he's a slam dunk.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:33:57 AM
Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

Yes, teams and coaches slip their way into S16's almost every year. Cuonzo Martin in 2014 being the poster boy of not getting carried away with one tournament run. But if you're making these kind of runs consistently, you've got a bona fide big time coach running your program! Consistency being the operative word.  Mediocre coaches do not make those runs multiple times.  Buzz doing a 3 peat of S16's took us back to near Al like levels.  Then he took a program like Va Tech that had never accomplished anything and did it there.  The guy can build a program and coach his guys up.

If Wojo would miraculously get us to 2,3 etc S16's or E8's, but fall short of Final Fours, of course perception of him among the fan base would change. One run alone, no.  But hanging your coaching hat on several runs such as those, and you've probably earned yourself being MU's head coach until you decide you no longer want the job.

As Silent Verbal pointed out, Wojo will highly likely not even get the one off, if talent is equal or favors MU, Wojo's incompetence will blow the chance.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 08:01:32 AM
Yes, teams and coaches slip their way into S16's almost every year. Cuonzo Martin in 2014 being the poster boy of not getting carried away with one tournament run. But if you're making these kind of runs consistently, you've got a bona fide big time coach running your program! Consistency being the operative word.  Mediocre coaches do not make those runs multiple times.  Buzz doing a 3 peat of S16's took us back to near Al like levels.  Then he took a program like Va Tech that had never accomplished anything and did it there.  The guy can build a program and coach his guys up.

If Wojo would miraculously get us to 2,3 etc S16's or E8's, but fall short of Final Fours, of course perception of him among the fan base would change. One run alone, no.  But hanging your coaching hat on several runs such as those, and you've probably earned yourself being MU's head coach until you decide you no longer want the job.

As Silent Verbal pointed out, Wojo will highly likely not even get the one off, if talent is equal or favors MU, Wojo's incompetence will blow the chance.

You're right with steady runs. Of course St Johns had that same mindset when they hired Lavin.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:45:20 AM
I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

You're starting to get me.  I have been Wardle hesitant bc though he was a Deane recruit, he is really a Crean disciple and he has some serious Crean genes. 

- Wins regulars season Championship but loses in conf tourney
- frenetic pacing up and down the court
- very coach speak

That said is last two years at Bradley have been tough tough to ignore.  The question should be, what's his Chicago AAU relationship? I would assume good but when gets to a real program can he call on that?  He was BFFs in HS with Cordell, Q & Dennis Gates.  If he can replicate that as a coach, we're fine.

All of that being said TJO works the gray like Buzz & Al.  It's not all black and white.  He knows where the rules are not so clear and how to color outside the lines just enough to win.  Very Buzz & Al like.  You need that at MU.  It is what have made us successful.       

If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:45:20 AM
I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

Ah, Ed Hickey.
I roomed with two of his players.
They broke into a professors office to steel an exam.
Hush!
It was covered up, back page story if that.
They were then transfered off to another Jesuit University.
Hush!
Then Ed failed and in came big Al on his white horse from Belmont Abbey.
And the rest is history.
Al recruited in NYC, WOJO recruited in Wisconsin, it is as simple as that.
Now WOJO is recruiting in New Jersey,  Baltimore, Minnessota and the Big Ten, things are looking up.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:10:39 AM
If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:10:39 AM
If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle's ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo's replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you're running the show at MU?  Because you're great at snarky comments without offering anything other than apparent blind admiration of Wojo.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

Yes, but.
History is only one indicator of future success.
Wardle might be a great coach, he may have a substantial resume, he may be a man of character, knowledge, intelect and experience and still fail.
So my question is, does a program transend a coach?
Is it all as simple as the coach?
Why?
The big salary?
We are really only talking about 7 kids +/- , a ball and a basket.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

This is where I am on Wardle, except there's some idea if he would be successful at MU because he has a track record of success at two programs that are difficult to win at.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 09:34:08 AM
Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle's ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo's replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you're running the show at MU?  Because you're great at snarky comments without offering anything.

Exactly - Who else is banging on the door to take over this program for the long haul? All signs point to Wardle taking two "local" jobs that would prove himself one day as a great candidate at MU. He's won at both of those spots, which are no cake walks, and has turned himself into a great candidate. I wouldn't be on board if he had only been at UWGB for a couple seasons, but he's succeeded at two different programs already, as well as a career as an assistant.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 09:34:08 AM
Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle's ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo's replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you're running the show at MU?  Because you're great at snarky comments without offering anything.

I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU.  Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 09:40:34 AM
This is where I am on Wardle, except there's some idea if he would be successful at MU because he has a track record of success at two programs that are difficult to win at.

Bradley is really not as difficult to win at as you're trying to make it out to be.  They've had multiple top 75 KenPom finishes, including a top 25 KenPom finish.  They've been a pretty solid mid-major.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:48:01 AM
I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU.  Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.

How many losing seasons in conference did Crean and Buzz have? Crean had 1 in 04/05.

How many has Wojo had? 3 his 6 seasons and not exactly in the greatest position in his 7th.

Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 09:49:34 AM
How many losing seasons in conference did Crean and Buzz have? Crean had 1 in 04/05.

How many has Wojo had? 3 his 6 seasons and not exactly in the greatest position in his 7th.

Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:48:01 AM
I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU. Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.

LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:51:12 AM
Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

Do you understand why your response isn't very smart or should I take some time to explain it to you?

Quote from: The Lens on December 28, 2020, 09:52:49 AM
LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

Okay.  Like I said, how far back should we go?  Was the year before Wardle got to Bradley really bad for Bradley?  Yup.  Were they much better prior to that year?  Yup.  So if we want to look at the single year before he got there and be like "Wow, what a miraculous job Wardle's done with such a horrendous Bradley program!" and then be like "Look at what Buzz did at MU before Wojo!  3 straight S16s!"

Sure, have it both ways.  Ignore that Bradley has been a very solid mid-major prior to Wardle because they had a terrible single year before Wardle got there.  But look to MU's past to trash Wojo and ignore the year before when they couldn't even make the NIT.  Makes a lot of sense.

Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 09:56:16 AM
Do you understand why your response isn't very smart or should I take some time to explain it to you?

Please, I'm all ears.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:51:12 AM
Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

Sarcasm, ignore realities, and nothing else. What would you do?  Come on, answer the question.

Quote from: The Lens on December 28, 2020, 09:52:49 AM
LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

Exactly.  Even if you only look at Buzz's last year, they were still 9-9 in conference.  That's a Wojo Special.

And from 1997-2015, the year Wardle took over, Bradley made the NCAA Tournament once.  That's not exactly "a pretty solid mid-major".

Quote from: The Lens on December 28, 2020, 09:52:49 AM
LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

It is hilarious the attempt at revisionist history to prop up Wojo

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:58:36 AM
Please, I'm all ears.

I'll keep it as simple as possible. I attached a picture.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:58:19 AM
Okay.  Like I said, how far back should we go?  Was the year before Wardle got to Bradley really bad for Bradley?  Yup.  Were they much better prior to that year?  Yup.  So if we want to look at the single year before he got there and be like "Wow, what a miraculous job Wardle's done with such a horrendous Bradley program!" and then be like "Look at what Buzz did at MU before Wojo!  3 straight S16s!"

Sure, have it both ways.  Ignore that Bradley has been a very solid mid-major prior to Wardle because they had a terrible single year before Wardle got there.  But look to MU's past to trash Wojo and ignore the year before when they couldn't even make the NIT.  Makes a lot of sense.

"..,a terrible single year before Wardle...".  They won a total of 19 conference games the previous 4 years before Wardle. Bradley had a grand total of one NCAA in the 90's, and one in the 00's.  So even your how far back do we go argument is crap. 

I'll keep it simple too.  Since KenPom started in 2002, Bradley has finished the year with an average of 160.9 finish (including Wardle's time).  Under Wardle?  186.4.  Prior to Wardle?  151.8.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:14:04 AM
I'll keep it simple too.  Since KenPom started in 2002, Bradley has finished the year with an average of 160.9 finish (including Wardle's time).  Under Wardle?  186.4.  Prior to Wardle?  151.8.

Conveniently ignoring how bad they were the four seasons before Wardle took over is exactly how I would assume you to cherry-pick data. 

Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 10:19:52 AM
Conveniently ignoring how bad they were the four seasons before Wardle took over is exactly how I would assume you to cherry-pick data.

...those numbers include the 4 seasons before Wardle took over.

Yes guys, wades doesn't understand cause and effect, nor the insane amount of differences in mid majors and p6.

He's a wojo boy who will never admit he was wrong. He will disregard any stat proving wojo is not our guy.

He once went on for 2 years that Jake Arrietta used roids with zero proof.

You won't change his opinion, just block the guy.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 09:59:34 AM
Exactly.  Even if you only look at Buzz's last year, they were still 9-9 in conference.  That's a Wojo Special.

And from 1997-2015, the year Wardle took over, Bradley made the NCAA Tournament once.  That's not exactly "a pretty solid mid-major".

Wardle also hasn't finished higher than 3rd in the MVC and has made it to the tournament off of conference tournament runs.  While he deserves credit for the conference tournaments, I'd much prefer consistent top of the MVC finished as opposed end of the year runs (eg John Groce).  If you take away the alum factor (and I think that's worth something) from Wardle, he's not even a consideration for MU.

Quote from: #UnleashDiener on December 28, 2020, 10:21:56 AM
Yes guys, wades doesn't understand cause and effect, nor the insane amount of differences in mid majors and p6.

He's a wojo boy who will never admit he was wrong. He will disregard any stat proving wojo is not our guy.

He once went on for 2 years that Jake Arrietta used roids with zero proof.

You won't change his opinion, just block the guy.

Lol.  Arrietta absolutely used steroids, but not sure what that has to do with this thread?  Thanks for the always on point work of yours though.

Also ironic that you're claiming I don't understand the difference between P6 and mid major while we're championing a guy who's never recruited to the high major level lol.

I'm all for moving on from Wojo.  But to bring in Brian Wardle?  Now that is some funny stuff.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:25:41 AM
Lol.  Arrietta absolutely used steroids, but not sure what that has to do with this thread?  Thanks for the always on point work of yours though.

Also ironic that you're claiming I don't understand the difference between P6 and mid major while we're championing a guy who's never recruited to the high major level lol.

I'm all for moving on from Wojo.  But to bring in Brian Wardle?  Now that is some funny stuff.

So you would do what?  Only my third time asking. Or are you only good at using sarcasm and putting down everyone else's ideas? 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops.

He's also improved his team's projected rank from preseason to the end of the season 6 of the past 8 years. One of the two exceptions, his team won the conference tournament & was leading 2-seed Michigan State in the second half, so his teams have been improving as the years go on.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 28, 2020, 09:34:17 AMSo my question is, does a program transend a coach?

Not usually. UNC & Kentucky have seen what happens when you hire a dud of a head coach. Virginia and Villanova have seen what happen when you're able to retain a coach better than your historical ranking. Duke did the same some 40 years ago and look at them now. Hell, Marquette did the same when they hired Al.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 28, 2020, 09:34:17 AMIs it all as simple as the coach?

Yes.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 28, 2020, 09:34:17 AMWhy?

Because rosters turn over every 2-4 years, but the coach is constant. That's why in college basketball, the coaches are the stars rather than the players. The coach instills the system, recruits to that system, and succeeds or fails based on how well those decisions go.

Quote from: vogue65 on December 28, 2020, 09:34:17 AMWe are really only talking about 7 kids +/- , a ball and a basket.

Maybe in the 1920s when they were still shooting at peach baskets. That's a stone cold idiotic take today.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 10:28:24 AM
He's also improved his team's projected rank from preseason to the end of the season 6 of the past 8 years. One of the two exceptions, his team won the conference tournament & was leading 2-seed Michigan State in the second half, so his teams have been improving as the years go on.

We'll need this verified by Wades World first before running with this as fact. Because he's only provided cold, hard objective data and leaving nothing out so his narrative doesn't crumble.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 10:27:24 AM
So you would do what?

If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Ideally you get a coach who's had some had coaching experience at the mid major level but has had some experience actually recruiting to the high major level.  I'd rather have a far less "proven" (even though Wardle's been average) head coach who has recent experience recruiting to the high major level.  I've seen what Wardle is.  If I want to continue with what we've seen under Wojo, he's definitely my guy.  But if I'm moving on from that, I'm taking a shot at someone who's probably more "boom or bust."  Maybe I give Todd Golden a chance.  Brian Michaelson (think he'd be my top choice) or Luke Murray as guys who don't have the head coaching background but I'd take a shot with them over a Wardle.

Or can you throw enough money at someone like Anthony Grant to get him to jump ship to the Big East?

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 10:38:35 AM
We'll need this verified by Wades World first before running with this as fact. Because he's only provided cold, hard objective data and leaving nothing out so his narrative doesn't crumble.

Yep ! No fudging of the numbers to fit his narrative whatsoever !

Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 10:43:00 AM
Yep ! No fudging of the numbers to fit his narrative whatsoever !

Fudging with what numbers?  Lol.  Sure.  Let's look at some random timeframe that will make Wardle look the best.  But when we look at the full picture it's fudging with numbers.  Makes a lot of sense.

But I'm very comforted to know that he can take his below average players and get them to play average by the end of the year.

Again.  I'm sold.  You guys have me all in on Wardle.  Let's go get him.  By year 4 he had those Bradley Braves rolling at 9-9 in the MVC.  Even finished 3rd in the MVC in year 5!  He'd just be rolling if he were in the Big East!

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Ideally you get a coach who's had some had coaching experience at the mid major level but has had some experience actually recruiting to the high major level.  I'd rather have a far less "proven" (even though Wardle's been average) head coach who has recent experience recruiting to the high major level.  I've seen what Wardle is.  If I want to continue with what we've seen under Wojo, he's definitely my guy.  But if I'm moving on from that, I'm taking a shot at someone who's probably more "boom or bust."  Maybe I give Todd Golden a chance.  Brian Michaelson (think he'd be my top choice) or Luke Murray as guys who don't have the head coaching background but I'd take a shot with them over a Wardle.

Or can you throw enough money at someone like Anthony Grant to get him to jump ship to the Big East?

Matt McMahon would be my first call. Already has a poster child he can point to in developing players. He's got 3/4 1st place finishes at a good mid major.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Two truths of 2020:

1) MU was a tournament team
2) MU was going to lose in the 1st round

Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 10:47:23 AM
Matt McMahon would be my first call. Already has a poster child he can point to in developing players. He's got 3/4 1st place finishes at a good mid major.

I'd certainly be interested in him.

Quote from: The Lens on December 28, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
Two truths of 2020:

• MU was a tournament team

• MU was going to lose in the 1st round

I agree.  Markus always had a chance of going off for 40 and that gives you a chance.  But the reality is we were playing bad basketball and most likely to be bounced in the first round.

Like I said.  I'm good with moving on with Wojo.  But if Wardle is the replacement, what's the point?  I mean, the year before Wojo took over MU, Marquette finished 8th out of 10 in the Big East.  By year 5 he had MU alone in 2nd in the BE.  Now we want to punt him to the curb so we can bring in a guy who has never finished in the top 2 of the MVC in his 6 years there.  Come on.

I think there%u2019s been a bit of revisionist history on that last Buzz team. Sometimes I feel people view it as being DePaul level season. They were a letdown from where they were supposed to be, but were in the Bubble conversation for most of the year. They lost two heartbreakers to end the regular season.

The team the following year would have had some solid freshman. I don%u2019t know if they would have been a tourney team though.

I%u2019m warming up to Wardle. I don%u2019t think I%u2019d be dancing in the streets, but think he%u2019s at least get us to Wojo%u2019s level. He has the upside of demonstrating that he%u2019s built and improved programs in the past. I don%u2019t know that I%u2019d argue Wojo has improved MU%u2019s standing a ton even using Buzz%u2019s last year as a benchmark.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Ideally you get a coach who's had some had coaching experience at the mid major level but has had some experience actually recruiting to the high major level.  I'd rather have a far less "proven" (even though Wardle's been average) head coach who has recent experience recruiting to the high major level.  I've seen what Wardle is.  If I want to continue with what we've seen under Wojo, he's definitely my guy.  But if I'm moving on from that, I'm taking a shot at someone who's probably more "boom or bust."  Maybe I give Todd Golden a chance.  Brian Michaelson (think he'd be my top choice) or Luke Murray as guys who don't have the head coaching background but I'd take a shot with them over a Wardle.

Or can you throw enough money at someone like Anthony Grant to get him to jump ship to the Big East?

Your top choice has the same resume Wojo had when he was hired.   

Grant got fired from his lone non mid major job. 

Murray has a celebrity father and never run a program.

Golden has a 5th place conference finish and a November win over UVA with his 6-4 record.

All clearly more attractive than what  Wardle has done at two programs awash  in basketball tradition, resources, and success.   

Very appealing candidates. But congrats on sticking your neck out finally.

Quote from: cheebs09 on December 28, 2020, 11:01:24 AM
I think there's been a bit of revisionist history on that last Buzz team. Sometimes I feel people view it as being DePaul level season. They were a letdown from where they were supposed to be, but were in the Bubble conversation for most of the year. They lost two heartbreakers to end the regular season.

The team the following year would have had some solid freshman. I don't know if they would have been a tourney team though.

I'm warming up to awardee. I don't think I'd be dancing in the streets, but think he's at least get us to Wojo's level. He has the upside of demonstrating that he's built and improved programs in the past. I don't know that I'd argue Wojo has improved MU's standing a ton even using Buzz's last year as a benchmark.

9-9 in conf and 6 of those 18 games went to OT, 2 went to Double OT.  Those 2OT games were 1 point losses.

We were 1-5 in OT.  A bounce here or there and you're 11-7 or even 12-6. 

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 11:04:30 AM
Your top choice has the same resume Wojo had when he was hired.   

Grant got fired from his lone non mid major job. 

Murray has a celebrity father and never run a program.

Golden has a 5th place conference finish and a November win over UVA with his 6-4 record.

Very appealing candidates. But congrats on sticking your neck out finally.

Right.  Nobody who's had some giant success is coming to Marquette.

But hey.  Wardle is so, so much more successful than those guys.  Oh wait.  He's never once recruited a high major basketball player in his career.

Quote from: The Lens on December 28, 2020, 11:06:26 AM
9-9 in conf and 6 of those 18 games went to OT, 2 went to Double OT.  Those 2OT games were 1 point losses.

We were 1-5 in OT.  A bounce here or there and you're 11-7 or even 12-6.

Just want to point out, this same logic could be used for Wojo to be sitting at 5 ncaa appearances and multiple top 3 finishes. You can't use that argument to sugar coat buzz's last season without doing it for Wojo.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 11:04:30 AM
Your top choice has the same resume Wojo had when he was hired.   

Grant got fired from his lone non mid major job. 

Murray has a celebrity father and never run a program.

Golden has a 5th place conference finish and a November win over UVA with his 6-4 record.

All clearly more attractive than what  Wardle has done at two programs awash  in basketball tradition, resources, and success.   

Very appealing candidates. But congrats on sticking your neck out finally.

Todd Golden — He's really set the world on fire in his (checks notes) one season at San Fran !
Brian Michaelson — The first high profile assistant didn't work out so let's try it again!
Luke Murray — The only reason you know his name is because they show Bill at every timeout during Luke's time at X and Ville. But lets hire him!


To summarize — LOL

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 11:07:31 AM
Right.  Nobody who's had some giant success is coming to Marquette.

But hey.  Wardle is so, so much more successful than those guys.  Oh wait.  He's never once recruited a high major basketball player in his career.

Yes, experience recruiting high major players has paid off so handsomely for us in almost 7 years in now.  Recruiting is not rocket science for crying out loud!

Nobody thought Greg Gard could recruit. Buzz had very little major D1 experience when he was hired. 

My view is Wojo will be hired away by a desperate scandal ridden P5 school (None currently out there but scandals happen all the time). In the meantime the Administration has made it clear they are backing him as our coach as long as he wants to be. 

In the event Wojo is lured away,  my replacement choices are as follows:
1. Stan
2. Coach Killings

Both have proven themselves as consistent recruiters and have thrived in our program.   

I think the Xavier and Butler Model of having consistency in their coaches has been proven to be a winning formula over the year. MU has a great basketball culture so no reason not to promote MU guys. One of the good things Wojo has done is embrace the history and alumni of MU basketball and I think having a replacement with MU experience has very good potential.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 11:21:37 AM
Yes, experience recruiting high major players has paid off so handsomely for us in almost 7 years in now.  Recruiting is not rocket science for crying out loud!

Nobody thought Greg Gard could recruit. Buzz had very little major D1 experience when he was hired.

Wojo has been to Marquette basically what Wardle has been to Bradley.  That's the entire point.

Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 11:18:13 AM
Todd Golden — He's really set the world on fire in his (checks notes) one season at San Fran !
Brian Michaelson — The first high profile assistant didn't work out so let's try it again!
Luke Murray — The only reason you know his name is because they show Bill at every timeout during Luke's time at X and Ville. But lets hire him!


To summarize — LOL

And in their combined 1.5 years of head coaching experience, they've achieved just as much as Brian Wardle has in 11 seasons coaching!

To summarize - LOL

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 11:34:11 AM
Wojo has been to Marquette basically what Wardle has been to Bradley.  That's the entire point.

And in their combined 1.5 years of head coaching experience, they've achieved just as much as Brian Wardle has in 11 seasons coaching!

To summarize - LOL

The entire point that only you continue to miss is drawing coaching parallels between Wojo and Wardle is ridiculous!  Programs they've led and what they inherited are apples and oranges. 

Backup QB's who have never thrown a pass look wonderful too. And no, none of them have accomplished two NCAA bids and a regular season conference title as Wardle has.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 11:34:11 AM
Wojo has been to Marquette basically what Wardle has been to Bradley.  That's the entire point.

And in their combined 1.5 years of head coaching experience, they've achieved just as much as Brian Wardle has in 11 seasons coaching!

To summarize - LOL

Really? USF has a 2 conference titles and NCAA tourney appearances?

Note that Golden inherited a program from a guy who got a Pac 12 job. He didn't take over a garbage program like Wardle did at Bradley. Also, the team Wardle left Darner at GB went to the tourney the next year after two straight NIT appearances. He's built programs.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM
Really? USF has a 2 conference titles and NCAA tourney appearances?

Note that Golden inherited a program from a guy who got a Pac 12 job. He didn't take over a garbage program like Wardle did at Bradley. Also, the team Wardle left Darner at GB went to the tourney the next year after two straight NIT appearances. He's built programs.

Don't confuse Wades with the facts

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM
Really? USF has a 2 conference titles and NCAA tourney appearances?

Note that Golden inherited a program from a guy who got a Pac 12 job. He didn't take over a garbage program like Wardle did at Bradley. Also, the team Wardle left Darner at GB went to the tourney the next year after two straight NIT appearances. He's built programs.

Watch yourself, you're about to be dazzled by selective facts and KenPom stats that Bradley has really been the envy of mid majors for a long time. 

Go ahead Wades World, tell him how simple winning at UWGB and Bradley is. And why high on our list should be Bill Murray's son. 

Why do we have to go through this every thread with BLM/Wades? Not being sure about what you'll get in a coaching search is not a valid reason to keep a currently and consistently underwhelming coach.

There will always be risk in a coaching search 100% of the time.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 12:00:36 PM
Watch yourself, you're about to be dazzled by selective facts and KenPom stats that Bradley has really been the envy of mid majors for a long time. 

Go ahead Wades World, tell him how simple winning at UWGB and Bradley is. And why high on our list should be Bill Murray's son.

I'd say Tod Kowalczyk has had pretty similar success to Wardle at UWGB and Toledo.  Also, if you like Wardle, why not just go for Moser instead?

Quote from: LAZER on December 28, 2020, 12:04:28 PM
I'd say Tod Kowalczyk has had pretty similar success to Wardle at UWGB and Toledo.  Also, if you like Wardle, why not just go for Moser instead?

Kowalczyk's 0 NCAA's are similar to Wardle's 2?  And K has coached many more seasons.

I'd be open to considering Moser.  He'd be pretty far down my list though. 

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 09:10:39 AM
If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

Furst thang ya got write in yeers, kin, hey?

Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 10:47:23 AM
Matt McMahon would be my first call. Already has a poster child he can point to in developing players. He's got 3/4 1st place finishes at a good mid major.

He's got SEC wriitten all over his kisser, hey?

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 12:11:09 PM
Kowalczyk's 0 NCAA's are similar to Wardle's 2?  And K has coached many more seasons.

I'd be open to considering Moser.  He'd be pretty far down my list though.

I'd say their success is pretty similar.  You may disagree, but I don't put a lot of stock in conference tourney runs to get NCAA bids. What makes Wardle a better candidate than Moser?

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Ideally you get a coach who's had some had coaching experience at the mid major level but has had some experience actually recruiting to the high major level.  I'd rather have a far less "proven" (even though Wardle's been average) head coach who has recent experience recruiting to the high major level.  I've seen what Wardle is.  If I want to continue with what we've seen under Wojo, he's definitely my guy.  But if I'm moving on from that, I'm taking a shot at someone who's probably more "boom or bust."  Maybe I give Todd Golden a chance.  Brian Michaelson (think he'd be my top choice) or Luke Murray as guys who don't have the head coaching background but I'd take a shot with them over a Wardle.

Or can you throw enough money at someone like Anthony Grant to get him to jump ship to the Big East?

Shaheen Holloway might be worth considering.

Quote from: LAZER on December 28, 2020, 12:23:21 PM
I'd say their success is pretty similar.  You may disagree, but I don't put a lot of stock in conference tourney runs to get NCAA bids. What makes Wardle a better candidate than Moser?

Moser flaming out at IL St is very concerning. Wardle doesn't have a failed tenure to answer for. 

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
Moser flaming out at IL St is very concerning. Wardle doesn't have a failed tenure to answer for.

Moser outperforming Wardle in the MVC every single year doesn't concern you?

If Brian Wardle had played at Xavier and someone said, "Hey, we should really look at replacing Wojo with Brian Wardle" you'd be laughed off of Scoop.  Or at least I hope you would.  Then again, here we are, so I'm not sure, really.

If we were DePaul and needed to find someone to build us out of the worst program in our conference, cool.  Let's go all in on Brian Wardle.  Maybe we can get to 6th in the Big East and win one extra game in the BET we didn't expect to.  That's not where we are.

Quote from: LAZER on December 28, 2020, 12:36:42 PM
Moser outperforming Wardle in the MVC every single year doesn't concern you?

Since you're uninterested in my answers and apparently just want to argue, I'll let you figure out the answer to your question.  Because it isn't hard.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 12:51:49 PM
Since you're uninterested in my answers and apparently just want to argue, I'll let you figure out the answer to your question.  Because it isn't hard.

Just trying to to figure out what makes Wardle more appealing, that's all. I personally find Moser having more consistent success in overlapping tenures in the same conference more appealing than what happened 13 years ago.  Guess we can leave it at that.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2020, 12:20:30 PM


He's got SEC wriitten all over his kisser, hey?

He's the top potential candidate IMO barring Mata saying he feels 50 again. If he came for a big pay day and left after 5 years while increasing our standing back to at least crean ideally buzz, while letting the wealthy SEC school pay a ridiculous buyout to help our budget issues then I'd be more than ok with that.

who might be on your short list?

Quote from: LAZER on December 28, 2020, 12:27:43 PM
Shaheen Holloway might be worth considering.

Weave all ready had won total loser, van driver from St. Peter's, aina?

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 12:41:52 PM
If Brian Wardle had played at Xavier and someone said, "Hey, we should really look at replacing Wojo with Brian Wardle" you'd be laughed off of Scoop.  Or at least I hope you would.  Then again, here we are, so I'm not sure, really.

If we were DePaul and needed to find someone to build us out of the worst program in our conference, cool.  Let's go all in on Brian Wardle.  Maybe we can get to 6th in the Big East and win one extra game in the BET we didn't expect to.  That's not where we are.

Is your endgame just to denigrate every potential HC candidate that gets tossed around on Scoop because you can no longer defend Wojo on his own merits? Or do you actually have any original ideas to contribute?

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 01:24:42 PM
Is your endgame just to denigrate every potential HC candidate that gets tossed around on Scoop because you can no longer defend Wojo on his own merits? Or do you actually have any original ideas to contribute?

Read the thread and you'll find your answer.

Or don't and look dumb.  Not unusual for you.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 01:32:29 PM
Read the thread and you'll find your answer.

Or don't and look dumb.  Not unusual for you.

I read your awful argument and I'm pretty sure it gave me COVID. When you're argument is crumbling, as it always is, you can do better than being insecure and condescending. Keep working at it!

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2020, 01:14:53 PM



Weave all ready had won total loser, van driver from St. Peter's, aina?

;D

Yeah, kind of hard to ignore that elephant in the room when that name was put out there.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 12:41:52 PM
If Brian Wardle had played at Xavier and someone said, "Hey, we should really look at replacing Wojo with Brian Wardle" you'd be laughed off of Scoop.  Or at least I hope you would.  Then again, here we are, so I'm not sure, really.

If we were DePaul and needed to find someone to build us out of the worst program in our conference, cool.  Let's go all in on Brian Wardle.  Maybe we can get to 6th in the Big East and win one extra game in the BET we didn't expect to.  That's not where we are.

Unfortunately, 6th in the Big East and winning one BET game is right about where we are as a program.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 01:49:31 PM
I read your awful argument and I'm pretty sure it gave me COVID. When you're argument is crumbling, as it always is, you can do better than being insecure and condescending. Keep working at it!

My argument gave you covid?  Well that's a new one.  Give the CDC a call, that'd be important information for them.  "Breaking news: Covid-19 now known to be contracted by getting triggered online!"

Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 02:09:58 PM
Unfortunately, 6th in the Big East and winning one BET game is right about where we are as a program.

Thank you.  Someone finally understands the point.  We want to fire our coach because he sucks, and hire someone who has had similar success, but at a much lower level.  Seems extremely logical.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 02:14:25 PM
My argument gave you covid?  Well that's a new one.  Give the CDC a call, that'd be important information for them.  "Breaking news: Covid-19 now known to be contracted by getting triggered online!"

Thank you.  Someone finally understands the point.  We want to fire our coach because he sucks, and hire someone who has had similar success, but at a much lower level.  Seems extremely logical.

I'm in agreement with you that Wardle would not be the answer in our next coaching search.  I think he would be too similar to Wojo in how he carries himself and runs a program.  But that might be the exact reason the BOT hires him, if it comes to that.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 12:00:36 PM
Watch yourself, you're about to be dazzled by selective facts and KenPom stats that Bradley has really been the envy of mid majors for a long time. 

Go ahead Wades World, tell him how simple winning at UWGB and Bradley is. And why high on our list should be Bill Murray's son.

The thing is I wouldn't consider Wardle a top tier candidate, but I do find the obsession with tearing down his accomplishments amusing, especially compared to guys who a) aren't as accomplished as him, and b) would never take the MU job.

I'd rather take Anna accomplished mid major coach than an assistant and an alumnus meeting that criteria isn't a bad thing either.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 28, 2020, 02:34:15 PM
The thing is I wouldn't consider Wardle a top tier candidate, but I do find the obsession with tearing down his accomplishments amusing, especially compared to guys who a) aren't as accomplished as him, and b) would never take the MU job.

I'd rather take Anna accomplished mid major coach than an assistant and an alumnus meeting that criteria isn't a bad thing either.

It's more annoying than amusing to me because it's just lacking objectivity over what he's accomplished at two programs that only young assistants (or D2 coach such as Darner) trying to prove themselves would touch either job because of the inherent difficulties winning consistently at either place. 

I'm not all in either that Wardle would be a home run hire, but like you seem to be, I'm considering who is reasonable for us and lend reasons to believe they'll outperform Wojo.  Wardle has never had close to the resources, conference affiliation, etc. he would be armed with taking over MU. Not even close. Like 5Dollar said, there's risk in any coaching search. He's one guy though that checks many boxes to indicate they'll win wherever they go.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 28, 2020, 03:09:44 PM

Nm 🙄

I think we should get the guy from Kentucky. I think his name is Calamari or something.

He's got a decent track record, but I did see him get ripped on ESPN the other day for making too difficult a schedule this season.

Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2020, 03:30:58 PM
I think we should get the guy from Kentucky. I think his name is Calamari or something.

He's got a decent track record, but I did see him get ripped on ESPN the other day for making too difficult a schedule this season.

There's people calling for his head on the Kentucky boards and on Twitter. Shocking really how entitled that fan base is. Not that we're great but that's another level

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 28, 2020, 02:34:15 PM
The thing is I wouldn't consider Wardle a top tier candidate, but I do find the obsession with tearing down his accomplishments amusing, especially compared to guys who a) aren't as accomplished as him, and b) would never take the MU job.

I'd rather take Anna accomplished mid major coach than an assistant and an alumnus meeting that criteria isn't a bad thing either.

Is Wardle even in the top 25 of most accomplished mid-major coaches?

I'm not qualified to tell you who the next up and coming mid-major coach is...there are plenty of people that can...and I wish MU would hire him now. 

Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 03:42:54 PM
There's people calling for his head on the Kentucky boards and on Twitter. Shocking really how entitled that fan base is. Not that we're great but that's another level

Really? That's hilarious.

BTW, in case folks didn't see it, the guy who was ripping him for the schedule was ... himself.

Quote from: BLM on December 28, 2020, 02:14:25 PMWe want to fire our coach because he sucks, and hire someone who has had similar success, but at a much lower level.  Seems extremely logical.

This is a bad argument. Wardle has had significantly more success than Cooley, Willard, or Jordan before they took over Big East programs that have been more successful than Wojo. His resume is about the equivalent of Jay Wright's when he got to Villanova.

That doesn't guarantee success. Nothing does. But we know what we have with Wojo. A coach whose decisions and strategies actively impact our ability to win.

You worry about recruiting. I don't. The actual boots on the ground work of that has mostly been done by Stan, Dwayne, and Justin. Wardle can hire assistants to recruit.

But ultimately, it isn't about Wojo or Wardle, or Wojo or TJO, it's just about Wojo. We're in year 7 and the job isn't getting done. Only two other coaches at Marquette in the past 68 years have failed to win a tournament game, Majerus and Dukiet. They lasted a combined 6 seasons, less time than Wojo. We aren't competing for conference titles. We haven't been to a conference tournament final. We see the same offensive mistakes by different players and the same defensive inability that has plagued the program since he arrived.

Wojo can get players, but that's a useless skill if you can't maximize their ability or make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. All evidence thus far shows he can't.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 29, 2020, 06:32:51 AM
This is a bad argument. Wardle has had significantly more success than Cooley, Willard, or Jordan before they took over Big East programs that have been more successful than Wojo. His resume is about the equivalent of Jay Wright's when he got to Villanova.

That doesn't guarantee success. Nothing does. But we know what we have with Wojo. A coach whose decisions and strategies actively impact our ability to win.

You worry about recruiting. I don't. The actual boots on the ground work of that has mostly been done by Stan, Dwayne, and Justin. Wardle can hire assistants to recruit.

But ultimately, it isn't about Wojo or Wardle, or Wojo or TJO, it's just about Wojo. We're in year 7 and the job isn't getting done. Only two other coaches at Marquette in the past 68 years have failed to win a tournament game, Majerus and Dukiet. They lasted a combined 6 seasons, less time than Wojo. We aren't competing for conference titles. We haven't been to a conference tournament final. We see the same offensive mistakes by different players and the same defensive inability that has plagued the program since he arrived.

Wojo can get players, but that's a useless skill if you can't maximize their ability or make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. All evidence thus far shows he can't.

Like I said, I'm fine moving on from Wojo. Wardle ain't it.

Quote from: BLM on December 29, 2020, 06:39:08 AM
Like I said, I'm fine moving on from Wojo. Wardle ain't it.

Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. But his track record makes him a strong candidate that has shown the ability to build two programs at different levels, neither of which are easy places to win. That all of his work has been done to specifically create a resume worthy of our job would have to be a positive in my eyes.

I have two concerns with Wardle.

First, his temper got him into big trouble at UWGB, which despite the statement that it was just a bunch of soft kids whose parents were overly involved, was a more serious problem than some were lead to believe.  It also got him into trouble at Bradley but not nearly to the same extent.  That's a problem that can be dealt with IMO.

Second, he really doesn't recruit at a high level.  And at mid-majors, that can work if you are a really good coach.  But will he be able to step up his recruiting?  Is he a good enough coach if he can't?

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2020, 06:53:18 AM
I have two concerns with Wardle.

First, his temper got him into big trouble at UWGB, which despite the statement that it was just a bunch of soft kids whose parents were overly involved, was a more serious problem than some were lead to believe.  It also got him into trouble at Bradley but not nearly to the same extent.  That's a problem that can be dealt with IMO.

Second, he really doesn't recruit at a high level.  And at mid-majors, that can work if you are a really good coach.  But will he be able to step up his recruiting?  Is he a good enough coach if he can't?

I echo these concerns, especially the second one.

I will be 100% behind whomever we hire, just as I have been behind Wojo, but it is a big leap from UWGB/Bradley to recruit at the level that Scoopers expect from our coach. And just saying, "Eh, he'll hire assistants who can consistently get top 30-100 players," seems extremely optimistic.

The good news for a dwindling few, bad news for others, and tragic news for those who believe that Wojo is "horrible" and/or "an embarrassment," is that there is plenty of time before such a decision will need to be made. Likely 15 months or more, possibly many more.

Lots of time to speculate wildly, and to build up or tear down guys who probably will never be our coach!

Quote from: MU82 on December 29, 2020, 07:13:35 AM
I echo these concerns, especially the second one.

I will be 100% behind whomever we hire, just as I have been behind Wojo, but it is a big leap from UWGB/Bradley to recruit at the level that Scoopers expect from our coach. And just saying, "Eh, he'll hire assistants who can consistently get top 30-100 players," seems extremely optimistic.

I will say this, moving from the MVC to the Big East is the same type of move that Dan Hurley made going from the A10 at URI to UConn, and is less of a leap than Ed Cooley made going from Fairfield to Providence or Jay Wright made from Hofstra to Villanova.

So I think it can be done, but Cooley seems to have topped out at a level just above Wojo but below a championship level, and the jury is still out on Hurley. 

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2020, 07:24:04 AM

I will say this, moving from the MVC to the Big East is the same type of move that Dan Hurley made going from the A10 at URI to UConn, and is less of a leap than Ed Cooley made going from Fairfield to Providence or Jay Wright made from Hofstra to Villanova.

So I think it can be done, but Cooley seems to have topped out at a level just above Wojo but below a championship level, and the jury is still out on Hurley.

In all of those instances, recruiting hasn't been a problem. 

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2020, 06:53:18 AM
I have two concerns with Wardle.

First, his temper got him into big trouble at UWGB, which despite the statement that it was just a bunch of soft kids whose parents were overly involved, was a more serious problem than some were lead to believe.  It also got him into trouble at Bradley but not nearly to the same extent.  That's a problem that can be dealt with IMO.

Second, he really doesn't recruit at a high level.  And at mid-majors, that can work if you are a really good coach.  But will he be able to step up his recruiting?  Is he a good enough coach if he can't?

I would agree with this. I would be okay with his name in a large list of initial candidates. But that is as far as I would go at this time. And personality/temperament would perhaps put him at an initial disadvantage.

Recruiting is a huge part of the game. Staff would be very important. Style of play etc...

And while improving GB and Bradley, he still has had only one winning record in The Valley, and one top four finish.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2020, 06:53:18 AM
I have two concerns with Wardle.

First, his temper got him into big trouble at UWGB, which despite the statement that it was just a bunch of soft kids whose parents were overly involved, was a more serious problem than some were lead to believe.  It also got him into trouble at Bradley but not nearly to the same extent.  That's a problem that can be dealt with IMO.

Second, he really doesn't recruit at a high level.  And at mid-majors, that can work if you are a really good coach.  But will he be able to step up his recruiting?  Is he a good enough coach if he can't?

I share those concerns. I agree that PR concerns can be addressed, and think a strong PR hand like Scott Kuykendall would help in that regard.

From a recruiting perspective, I think the program and assistants will help in that regard, and frankly we've seen programs like Wisconsin prove that it's more important to get guys that fit the system than just the stars next to their names. He's found guys like Elijah Childs, Darrell Brown, and Keifer Sykes to make his system go, and unearthed Alec Brown & got him drafted to the NBA.

I also think the impending immediate eligibility would help a coach looking to find their footing in a high major. Though I would guess we'll have another 1.5 years of Wojo regardless to evaluate options.

The only way there is a coaching change after this season is if John Beilein or Thad Matta are dialing up Scholl.  AKA Wojo will be our coach next year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:45:20 AM
I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

Brew,  has Wardle said the MU job is the job he is gunning for?   

Quote from: BLM on December 29, 2020, 08:56:41 AM
The only way there is a coaching change after this season is if John Beilein or Thad Matta are dialing up Scholl.  AKA Wojo will be our coach next year.

I'd forgotten about Beilein.  If he wasn't 67, he'd be a damn good option.  If he chooses to coach again, he probably wouldn't work more than five years before retiring for good.

Why doesn't Northwestern, Notre Dame, or West Virginia change their coach every few years?
Could it he because they win so many championships?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2020, 01:14:53 PM

Weave all ready had won total loser, van driver from St. Peter's, aina?

Can Shaheen play the piano?

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 29, 2020, 12:07:15 PM
Brew,  has Wardle said the MU job is the job he is gunning for?

Publicly, no, but no coach will ever say "this job I have is fine, but what I really want is...." I've heard enough behind the scenes to strongly lead me to believe that he wanted it when it was last open & his move to Bradley was in part because the UWGB resume wasn't enough. I have no doubt he'd be first in line to interview if MU came open.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 29, 2020, 01:40:32 PM
Publicly, no, but no coach will ever say "this job I have is fine, but what I really want is...." I've heard enough behind the scenes to strongly lead me to believe that he wanted it when it was last open & his move to Bradley was in part because the UWGB resume wasn't enough. I have no doubt he'd be first in line to interview if MU came open.

Gotcha,  thanks.  I appreciate your insight.

Bump. Leave him in DC, close to home.

Meanwhile, Shaka Smart just blew out Kansas and has Texas as the #6 Kenpom team.

Meanwhile, Shaka looks good at UT.

*ducks*

I will admit I downloaded the Fire Wojo paperwork after the Nova game, I'm thinking I have some time during this 2nd half to fill it out.....this game is the worst I've seen from MUBB in many years #Painful

Quote from: muwarrior97 on January 02, 2021, 07:37:38 PM
I will admit I downloaded the Fire Wojo paperwork after the Nova game, I'm thinking I have some time during this 2nd half to fill it out.....this game is the worst I've seen from MUBB in many years #Painful

Paperwork?

Firing wojo isn't enough anymore. I want some measure of revenge for what he has done to our program.

Quote from: GLlanas on January 02, 2021, 07:43:23 PM
Firing wojo isn't enough anymore. I want some measure of revenge for what he has done to our program.

We could try to sue him for malpractice. After Buzz we needed an appendix removal but Wojo performed a lobotomy.

Wow they blow, they are actually getting worse each game.   They may not actually win another game this season.

I was wrong - they might beat Georgetown twice this year.  Wow, GT a team the turns over the ball at crucial times for than MU

Quote from: PointWarrior on January 02, 2021, 08:05:32 PM
Wow they blow, they are actually getting worse each game.   They may not actually win another game this season.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 02, 2021, 07:46:24 PM
We could try to sue him for malpractice. After Buzz we needed an appendix removal but Wojo performed a lobotomy.

Took you so long to come up with a lobotomy that you first had to go with "brain surgery" and then edit the post? Lol.

Quote from: BLM on January 02, 2021, 09:34:53 PM
Took you so long to come up with a lobotomy that you first had to go with "brain surgery" and then edit the post? Lol.

After I posted I realized brain surgery was a little generous as that's a legitimate medical procedure. Good catch though!

I would like to see a Brian Dutcher from sd state. He recruited the fab 5 at Michigan. Has had success, from the Midwest, buyout is affordable and we can afford him.

Quote from: PointWarrior on January 02, 2021, 08:05:32 PM
Wow they blow, they are actually getting worse each game.   They may not actually win another game this season.

After this one.

Quote from: Boston Warrior on January 02, 2021, 09:49:54 PM
I would like to see a Brian Dutcher from sd state. He recruited the fab 5 at Michigan. Has had success, from the Midwest, buyout is affordable and we can afford him.

My recollection is that there was some Cash Incentives with the Fab 5.

Brian coached at 2 schools, Michigan and sd state. 30 years or so.. yes fab 5 had some alumni issues but he has been clean. A great coach!

Quote from: PointWarrior on January 02, 2021, 08:40:42 PM
I was wrong

Congrats on finally being right about something.