Projo nojo

[wadesworld]

This is where I am on Wardle, except there's some idea if he would be successful at MU because he has a track record of success at two programs that are difficult to win at.

Bradley is really not as difficult to win at as you're trying to make it out to be.  They've had multiple top 75 KenPom finishes, including a top 25 KenPom finish.  They've been a pretty solid mid-major.

[panda]

I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU.  Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.

How many losing seasons in conference did Crean and Buzz have? Crean had 1 in 04/05.

How many has Wojo had? 3 his 6 seasons and not exactly in the greatest position in his 7th.

[wadesworld]

How many losing seasons in conference did Crean and Buzz have? Crean had 1 in 04/05.

How many has Wojo had? 3 his 6 seasons and not exactly in the greatest position in his 7th.

Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

[The Lens]

I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU. Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.

LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

[panda]

Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

Do you understand why your response isn't very smart or should I take some time to explain it to you?

[wadesworld]

LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

Okay.  Like I said, how far back should we go?  Was the year before Wardle got to Bradley really bad for Bradley?  Yup.  Were they much better prior to that year?  Yup.  So if we want to look at the single year before he got there and be like "Wow, what a miraculous job Wardle's done with such a horrendous Bradley program!" and then be like "Look at what Buzz did at MU before Wojo!  3 straight S16s!"

Sure, have it both ways.  Ignore that Bradley has been a very solid mid-major prior to Wardle because they had a terrible single year before Wardle got there.  But look to MU's past to trash Wojo and ignore the year before when they couldn't even make the NIT.  Makes a lot of sense.

[wadesworld]

Do you understand why your response isn't very smart or should I take some time to explain it to you?

Please, I'm all ears.

[HutchwasClutch]

Cool.  So let's replace him with a guy who has had 3 losing conference seasons (and 2 .500 seasons) in the Horizon and MVC.  Excellent.

Sarcasm, ignore realities, and nothing else. What would you do?  Come on, answer the question.

[Silent Verbal]

LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

Exactly.  Even if you only look at Buzz's last year, they were still 9-9 in conference.  That's a Wojo Special.

And from 1997-2015, the year Wardle took over, Bradley made the NCAA Tournament once.  That's not exactly "a pretty solid mid-major".

[HutchwasClutch]

LOL

MU pre Wojo:

S16
S16
E8
9-9 in conf

It is hilarious the attempt at revisionist history to prop up Wojo

[panda]

Please, I'm all ears.

I'll keep it as simple as possible. I attached a picture.

[HutchwasClutch]

Okay.  Like I said, how far back should we go?  Was the year before Wardle got to Bradley really bad for Bradley?  Yup.  Were they much better prior to that year?  Yup.  So if we want to look at the single year before he got there and be like "Wow, what a miraculous job Wardle's done with such a horrendous Bradley program!" and then be like "Look at what Buzz did at MU before Wojo!  3 straight S16s!"

Sure, have it both ways.  Ignore that Bradley has been a very solid mid-major prior to Wardle because they had a terrible single year before Wardle got there.  But look to MU's past to trash Wojo and ignore the year before when they couldn't even make the NIT.  Makes a lot of sense.

"..,a terrible single year before Wardle...".  They won a total of 19 conference games the previous 4 years before Wardle. Bradley had a grand total of one NCAA in the 90's, and one in the 00's.  So even your how far back do we go argument is crap. 

[wadesworld]

I'll keep it simple too.  Since KenPom started in 2002, Bradley has finished the year with an average of 160.9 finish (including Wardle's time).  Under Wardle?  186.4.  Prior to Wardle?  151.8.

[panda]

I'll keep it simple too.  Since KenPom started in 2002, Bradley has finished the year with an average of 160.9 finish (including Wardle's time).  Under Wardle?  186.4.  Prior to Wardle?  151.8.

Conveniently ignoring how bad they were the four seasons before Wardle took over is exactly how I would assume you to cherry-pick data. 

[wadesworld]

Conveniently ignoring how bad they were the four seasons before Wardle took over is exactly how I would assume you to cherry-pick data.

...those numbers include the 4 seasons before Wardle took over.

[#UnleashSean]

Yes guys, wades doesn't understand cause and effect, nor the insane amount of differences in mid majors and p6.

He's a wojo boy who will never admit he was wrong. He will disregard any stat proving wojo is not our guy.

He once went on for 2 years that Jake Arrietta used roids with zero proof.

You won't change his opinion, just block the guy.

[LAZER]

Exactly.  Even if you only look at Buzz's last year, they were still 9-9 in conference.  That's a Wojo Special.

And from 1997-2015, the year Wardle took over, Bradley made the NCAA Tournament once.  That's not exactly "a pretty solid mid-major".

Wardle also hasn't finished higher than 3rd in the MVC and has made it to the tournament off of conference tournament runs.  While he deserves credit for the conference tournaments, I'd much prefer consistent top of the MVC finished as opposed end of the year runs (eg John Groce).  If you take away the alum factor (and I think that's worth something) from Wardle, he's not even a consideration for MU.

[wadesworld]

Yes guys, wades doesn't understand cause and effect, nor the insane amount of differences in mid majors and p6.

He's a wojo boy who will never admit he was wrong. He will disregard any stat proving wojo is not our guy.

He once went on for 2 years that Jake Arrietta used roids with zero proof.

You won't change his opinion, just block the guy.

Lol.  Arrietta absolutely used steroids, but not sure what that has to do with this thread?  Thanks for the always on point work of yours though.

Also ironic that you're claiming I don't understand the difference between P6 and mid major while we're championing a guy who's never recruited to the high major level lol.

I'm all for moving on from Wojo.  But to bring in Brian Wardle?  Now that is some funny stuff.

[HutchwasClutch]

Lol.  Arrietta absolutely used steroids, but not sure what that has to do with this thread?  Thanks for the always on point work of yours though.

Also ironic that you're claiming I don't understand the difference between P6 and mid major while we're championing a guy who's never recruited to the high major level lol.

I'm all for moving on from Wojo.  But to bring in Brian Wardle?  Now that is some funny stuff.

So you would do what?  Only my third time asking. Or are you only good at using sarcasm and putting down everyone else's ideas? 

[brewcity77]

I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops.

He's also improved his team's projected rank from preseason to the end of the season 6 of the past 8 years. One of the two exceptions, his team won the conference tournament & was leading 2-seed Michigan State in the second half, so his teams have been improving as the years go on.

[brewcity77]

So my question is, does a program transend a coach?

Not usually. UNC & Kentucky have seen what happens when you hire a dud of a head coach. Virginia and Villanova have seen what happen when you're able to retain a coach better than your historical ranking. Duke did the same some 40 years ago and look at them now. Hell, Marquette did the same when they hired Al.

Is it all as simple as the coach?

Yes.

Why?

Because rosters turn over every 2-4 years, but the coach is constant. That's why in college basketball, the coaches are the stars rather than the players. The coach instills the system, recruits to that system, and succeeds or fails based on how well those decisions go.

We are really only talking about 7 kids +/- , a ball and a basket.

Maybe in the 1920s when they were still shooting at peach baskets. That's a stone cold idiotic take today.

[HutchwasClutch]

He's also improved his team's projected rank from preseason to the end of the season 6 of the past 8 years. One of the two exceptions, his team won the conference tournament & was leading 2-seed Michigan State in the second half, so his teams have been improving as the years go on.

We'll need this verified by Wades World first before running with this as fact. Because he's only provided cold, hard objective data and leaving nothing out so his narrative doesn't crumble.

[wadesworld]

So you would do what?

If we're pretending that Marquette isn't facing financial issues and that Wojo doesn't still have a decent chance to make his 4th NCAA Tournament in the past 5 seasons?  (Oh wait.  We can't say that.  No Tournament last year.  So I guess we can go with "tied for the longest active NCAA Tournament appearance streak in the entire NCAA.")

Ideally you get a coach who's had some had coaching experience at the mid major level but has had some experience actually recruiting to the high major level.  I'd rather have a far less "proven" (even though Wardle's been average) head coach who has recent experience recruiting to the high major level.  I've seen what Wardle is.  If I want to continue with what we've seen under Wojo, he's definitely my guy.  But if I'm moving on from that, I'm taking a shot at someone who's probably more "boom or bust."  Maybe I give Todd Golden a chance.  Brian Michaelson (think he'd be my top choice) or Luke Murray as guys who don't have the head coaching background but I'd take a shot with them over a Wardle.

Or can you throw enough money at someone like Anthony Grant to get him to jump ship to the Big East?

[panda]

We'll need this verified by Wades World first before running with this as fact. Because he's only provided cold, hard objective data and leaving nothing out so his narrative doesn't crumble.

Yep ! No fudging of the numbers to fit his narrative whatsoever !

[wadesworld]

Yep ! No fudging of the numbers to fit his narrative whatsoever !

Fudging with what numbers?  Lol.  Sure.  Let's look at some random timeframe that will make Wardle look the best.  But when we look at the full picture it's fudging with numbers.  Makes a lot of sense.

But I'm very comforted to know that he can take his below average players and get them to play average by the end of the year.

Again.  I'm sold.  You guys have me all in on Wardle.  Let's go get him.  By year 4 he had those Bradley Braves rolling at 9-9 in the MVC.  Even finished 3rd in the MVC in year 5!  He'd just be rolling if he were in the Big East!