I've essentially succumbed to what I think the cycle will be forever at MU.
Fans will bitch if coach isn't great, but merely good.
If coach is great, he is leaving MU anyway for a better gig.
Is the hope to catch great for a few years? Is the desire to be good most years?
Quote from: Cheeks on January 07, 2020, 03:09:49 PM
I've essentially succumbed to what I think the cycle will be forever at MU.
Fans will bitch if coach isn't great, but merely good.
If coach is great, he is leaving MU anyway for a better gig.
Is the hope to catch great for a few years? Is the desire to be good most years?
Stupid OP, Sybil is bored.
All I want is a chance to make the final four again and see what happens after that. If it happens with a "good' coach over a long period of time or a "great" coach within a few year span then I don't have a strong preference. However I worry that temporary coaches won't create much longevity that's healthy for a program.
12% of Scoopers want Wojo gone. Woe is me. I will feel better if I start another pity thread on this same topic.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/1/1c/Profile_-_Eeyore.png/revision/latest?cb=20190315134852)
Quote from: Markusquette on January 07, 2020, 03:18:24 PM
All I want is a chance to make the final four again and see what happens after that. If it happens with a "good' coach over a long period of time or a "great" coach within a few year span then I don't have a strong preference. However I worry that temporary coaches won't create much longevity that's healthy for a program.
You have to play a high level of defense in order to get into a Final Four. Wojo has never shut a good team down with defense. The only way his teams blow people out is by shooting a high percentage from beyond the 3 pt arc. That's not the formula to get to the Final Four.
If you're comfy with 1st and 2nd round NCAA Tourney Potential, then Wojo is your guy.
My ideal scenario is to get a good coach who over a matter of not too many seasons becomes a great coach. He loves it here and makes MU a blueblood again. He does not ever leave for a "better" job, he retires from MU as a legend.
For the blueprint see Villanova, Gonzaga, Duke - schools with some similarities to MU and one really good coach who settled in there.
Quote from: ManeCity83 on January 07, 2020, 04:00:47 PM
My ideal scenario is to get a good coach who over a matter of not too many seasons becomes a great coach. He loves it here and makes MU a blueblood again. He does not ever leave for a "better" job, he retires from MU as a legend.
For the blueprint see Villanova, Gonzaga, Duke - schools with some similarities to MU and one really good coach who settled in there.
And by year 4 or even less, these coaches were having success at the schools they're at now....the same time their first recruiting classes became seniors. I just don't see that here with Wojo. Your data, to be supportive of Wojo, would need to show that they became consistently successful after year 6 at their respective programs. If Wojo were to get a pass, he'd make a serious jump soon from building up/developing talent - but we don't see that. Nonetheless, it seems the university doesn't care. They're happy with optics vs. results. - same as many posters on here who are fooled by image.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 07, 2020, 03:09:49 PM
I've essentially succumbed to what I think the cycle will be forever at MU.
Fans will bitch if coach isn't great, but merely good.
If coach is great, he is leaving MU anyway for a better gig.
Is the hope to catch great for a few years? Is the desire to be good most years?
I don't subscribe to the great coach theory. I think it's way more about the players. I guess if you classify a great coach as one who wins the tournament with lesser talent I would subscribe to that. Gard almost did it. Is he a great coach? Maybe.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 07, 2020, 04:30:45 PM
I don't subscribe to the great coach theory. I think it's way more about the players. I guess if you classify a great coach as one who wins the tournament with lesser talent I would subscribe to that. Gard almost did it. Is he a great coach? Maybe.
If Marquette had beaten Murray State but lost to FSU or beaten SoCar and then lost to Duke, the goalposts would have been shifted to "no Sweet 16's".
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 07, 2020, 03:18:13 PM
Stupid OP, Sybil is bored.
Knit, I disagree with you on many things.
But the Sybil nickname is brilliant.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 04:20:35 PM
And by year 4 or even less, these coaches were having success at the schools they're at now....the same time their first recruiting classes became seniors. I just don't see that here with Wojo. Your data, to be supportive of Wojo, would need to show that they became consistently successful after year 6 at their respective programs. If Wojo were to get a pass, he'd make a serious jump soon from building up/developing talent - but we don't see that. Nonetheless, it seems the university doesn't care. They're happy with optics vs. results. - same as many posters on here who are fooled by image.
Translation: If you don't agree with MDDG and his or her assessment of Wojos past, present, and potential future level of success, you don't care about results.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 07, 2020, 04:54:08 PM
Translation: If you don't agree with MDDG and his or her assessment of Wojos past, present, and potential future level of success, you don't care about results.
Translation: You don't have any ammo left
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 03:46:45 PM
You have to play a high level of defense in order to get into a Final Four. Wojo has never shut a good team down with defense. The only way his teams blow people out is by shooting a high percentage from beyond the 3 pt arc. That's not the formula to get to the Final Four.
If you're comfy with 1st and 2nd round NCAA Tourney Potential, then Wojo is your guy.
One could argue that he did that in MU's last game. Did you watch that one?
Quote from: mug644 on January 07, 2020, 05:03:49 PM
One could argue that he did that in MU's last game. Did you watch that one?
One game.... at home. Not exactly a trend here...
One could also argue that the shots just didn't fall for Nova either.
I'll be convinced they're a great defensive unit when they continually play lockdown defense, deny the ball, maintain matchups/help out, and get deflections.
Cheeks, you're killing me on this one. Dr. B's picture of Eeore (and no, I'm not certain that's the spelling) fits a lot of us, but I'm more of a blue sky ahead kind of guy. Personally, I'm getting real tired of the 10-15% haters that want Wojo gone. I know he's not perfect, but here's a couple of plus items on him (in my poorly educated opinion):
He waited 15 years as an assistant. After 7 or 8 years he was a solid prospect, but waited until Marquette. Why? I think it was as he stated. He wanted a place that could be a destination. That's what his boss did. Found a basketball school, that was "traditionally good" but in a rut, and got a great thing going. I think that is what he wants. I believe that if we become more successful, Wojo stays.
I'm pretty certain there are better days ahead with him. He already has a solid class coming in (likely his best so far) and the non-one-and-done players remaining after this year will help build us up a little more, and likely attract another great class.
I think his coaching path to MU set him up for a bad first five years (and I think he's done better than I expected). I liked his selection as our coach, but knew it would be a long road. Wojo is like the guy that went to college in the same town he grew up in. Then gets his Masters from the same school. He never really learned from anyone other than Coach K. Almost 20 years with the same guy.
I think you need to be under different coaches to be a little more head coach ready. You can't coach like it's Duke when you've got B players as your stars, and C and D players as the subs. Coach K (and Al for that matter) had NBA draft picks on their benches. I think Wojo is learning from his assistants now (which is smart), and it makes all of them better coaches. I know I learned a lot of the each of my many bosses, but only so much from each one. I'm glad even the good ones moved along (or me). I've learned a ton from the folks who worked for me. It's a long process. I think he was going to struggle all along. I also think the next 3-4 years will be very telling.
I don't think he's going away anytime soon, barring some kind of meltdown the few posters on this board are praying for. There isn't a magic coach to come in and save the day that I can see. The few posters on the board that attack after every game (every other play on the game threads with bad games) remind me of my best friend at MU. He loved basketball, and cursed MU nearly every game - "Marquette Sucks!" He's say it no less than 10x in a good game, even the championship season (our freshman year). I think he was happy that Al was on his way out. Reminds me so much of the 10-15% unhappy folks on the board.
While there is a significantly good chance we don't rise to blueblood, the only way you get there is with a long term coach. Someone who wants to be there. John Wooden made UCLA. Where are they now? Bobby Knight ... Dean Smith ... Coach K. They made those schools a destination. Had they just been good, making the tourney 6 out of every 7 years, maybe a championship, they would have likely stayed anyway. Jumping on the latest hot coach on a lower team only makes us a stepping stone. I'd rather wait it out with someone that has a shot, and it will take time.
I think we make the tournament this year, maybe win a game or two, depending on the seed. Would love a solid run at MSG first. I kind of knew we were out early with the attitude of the team last year. This year's team has a much better attitude and belief. Loved Sam, but Joey (I'll say it again) was a poison. Mr. Unhappy himself, and it resonated. Good lesson for Wojo that a high ranked kid might not be worth playing. Nova benched a five star and it didn't hurt them. I'm certain Jay Wright had to really think about that, but he did the right thing letting him go.
As I've said many times, I'm not a great basketball expert. I have coached a college team (although a different sport) and know just how hard it is. This is just my point of view as a fan.
Make sense, Cheeks?
Looks pretty long. I really rambled on that one!
While there is a significantly good chance we don't rise to blueblood, the only way you get there is with a long term coach. Someone who wants to be there. John Wooden made UCLA. Where are they now?
[/quote]
Don't underestimate Mick Cronin
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 04:58:25 PM
Translation: You don't have any ammo left
Oh I don't know..... I thought I captured the spirit of your sentiment perfectly.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 05:13:21 PM
One game.... at home. Not exactly a trend here...
One could also argue that the shots just didn't fall for Nova either.
I'll be convinced they're a great defensive unit when they continually play lockdown defense, deny the ball, maintain matchups/help out, and get deflections.
Goalposts moved. Nice.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 07, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
If Marquette had beaten Murray State but lost to FSU or beaten SoCar and then lost to Duke, the goalposts would have been shifted to "no Sweet 16's".
This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.
If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 08, 2020, 08:21:04 AM
This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.
If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.
It's more than a tournament win here.......come on.
Quote from: war1980rior on January 07, 2020, 05:14:20 PM
He waited 15 years as an assistant. After 7 or 8 years he was a solid prospect, but waited until Marquette. Why?
Wojo didn't wait. Coach K waited until advising him to leave.
I believe Coach K knows Wojo's image as some floor slapping maniac is a misnomer (if that's the right word) and advised him to take a cushy Marquette gig with massive resources. I'm not saying it was bad advice, either. I believe K knows Wojo is about an inch deep and needed a program to prop him up rather than the other way around.
My problem with Wojo is I don't think he's doing much coaching and he's certainly not a leader. With Buzz and Crean (as irritating as he was and is) you knew they were into the nitty gritty.
Wojo is very likable...I like him... but he is totally miscast as a head coach.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 08, 2020, 09:26:24 AM
Wojo didn't wait. Coach K waited until advising him to leave.
I believe Coach K knows Wojo's image as some floor slapping maniac is a misnomer (if that's the right word) and advised him to take a cushy Marquette gig with massive resources. I'm not saying it was bad advice, either. I believe K knows Wojo is about an inch deep and needed a program to prop him up rather than the other way around.
My problem with Wojo is I don't think he's doing much coaching and he's certainly not a leader. With Buzz and Crean (as irritating as he was and is) you knew they were into the nitty gritty.
Wojo is very likable...I like him... but he is totally miscast as a head coach.
Wojo should just be the New Athletic Director since everyone likes him. It's not a far fetched idea either with all of the basketball connections he has.
I would say the the anti-Wojo's are about 25%, the ambivalent about Wojo-25%, slightly more than ambivalent-25%, and pro-Wojo 25%.
Trying to win games with walking turnovers such as Koby McEwen, Jamal Cain, and Ed Morrow is pretty difficult. College basketball is about recruiting and getting lucky on a few of them. But for Howard, and to an extent Hauser, he's not had any luck. I'm not in the Anti-Wojo camp, but I don't really care if he stays/goes.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 09:28:31 AM
Wojo should just be the New Athletic Director since everyone likes him. It's not a far fetched idea either with all of the basketball connections he has.
That's not as crazy as it seems
Quote from: skianth16 on January 08, 2020, 08:21:04 AM
This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.
If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.
Bullseye. 100% right from where I sit.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 08, 2020, 05:32:10 PM
Bullseye. 100% right from where I sit.
The Wojo debate has a lot of parallels to today's polarized political debates. There's a total lack of listening and understanding.
Once upon a time, a great university hired a long-time assistant coach.
The coach was good but not great. The alumni were aggravated and fans upset because the top players went elsewhere, rather than to the great university.
The coach left and first did a stint in the pros and then was retained by a mid-major. The Mid-Major no longer acted like a mid-major and the talent was sufficient to get the mid-Major into the NCAA on a semi-regular basis.
Meanwhile, the great university floundered.
The coach was recruited away from the mid-major and to a state university that previously had never had a basketball tradition. There, he recruited well and assembled a team that so good, it made the NCAA National Championship game.
Meanwhile, less than 15 years after the great university won it all, its program was on life support.
Fast forward to today. I get that Wojo doesn't have the team where it should be.... yet. The hardest thing to assess is whether he's the answer. If he is and we let him go, we're a training ground for someone else's Natty. I don't like that. On the other hand, we stick with him and maybe we become what, historically, Dayton has become. Yuck!
The question: Do we have Rick Majerus or do we have Mike Deane?
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 09, 2020, 04:44:38 PM
Once upon a time, a great university hired a long-time assistant coach.
The coach was good but not great. The alumni were aggravated and fans upset because the top players went elsewhere, rather than to the great university.
The coach left and first did a stint in the pros and then was retained by a mid-major. The Mid-Major no longer acted like a mid-major and the talent was sufficient to get the mid-Major into the NCAA on a semi-regular basis.
Meanwhile, the great university floundered.
The coach was recruited away from the mid-major and to a state university that previously had never had a basketball tradition. There, he recruited well and assembled a team that so good, it made the NCAA National Championship game.
Meanwhile, less than 15 years after the great university won it all, its program was on life support.
Fast forward to today. I get that Wojo doesn't have the team where it should be.... yet. The hardest thing to assess is whether he's the answer. If he is and we let him go, we're a training ground for someone else's Natty. I don't like that. On the other hand, we stick with him and maybe we become what, historically, Dayton has become. Yuck!
The question: Do we have Rick Majerus or do we have Mike Deane?
First Wojo's trajectory was compared to Wright and K, but that's pretty much stopped. The "Do we have Rick Majerus" question will be the next one to go. You could literally ask that about any coach who isn't getting it done. After this season, Wojo will have been here six years. Assuming he's here next year, that'll make seven. If he can't get it done at Marquette in seven years, he was never getting it done here, even if he goes on to have success at another school.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 08, 2020, 08:21:04 AM
This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.
If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.
Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.
Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.
Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.
Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.
By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success. It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM
Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.
Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.
Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.
Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.
By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success. It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.
Fake News.
Why do you think of all the jobs Wojo was offered over his 20-years at Duke, he chose to take the MU job? Wojo walked into a really good program with some talented underclassmen in the cupboard.
Sure, Wojo has Markus, who arrived highly regarded - yet its more an indictment of Wojo that he has had Markus and hasn't figured out a way to win an NCAA tournament game - getting blown out in both, and missed the NCAA in one of Markus's three years.
Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on. Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.
I don't think he should be fired. I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach. I suspect we'll be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM
Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.
Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.
Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.
Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.
By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success. It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.
Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme projos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.
Edit projo not promo
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 09, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Fake News.
Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on. Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.
I don't think he should be fired. I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach. I suspect will be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse.
This is the best short analysis I've read on here of the program.
Wojo goes as far as his recruits take him. Don't expect anything where the sum of it's parts > Whole.
30-60 ranking territory is pretty accurate. I'd say the median ranking for the team is high 40's and best years will be in 30's ....maybe a 20's if he can hit his outlier.
Without Markus Howard he doesn't have a difference maker and that's going to really put the pressure on Wojo to coach up a system. Otherwise, Howard skews things in terms of how bare the shelf really is with this team.
Quote from: dinger on January 09, 2020, 07:11:29 PM
Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme promos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.
They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.
They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.
They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement. Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.
As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here
Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.
They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.
They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement. Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.
Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.
Quote from: dinger on January 09, 2020, 07:48:16 PM
Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.
Crapshoot or not, good teams and good coaches win in the tournament.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 09, 2020, 07:13:59 PM
This is the best short analysis I've read on here of the program.
Wojo goes as far as his recruits take him. Don't expect anything where the sum of it's parts > Whole.
30-60 ranking territory is pretty accurate. I'd say the median ranking for the team is high 40's and best years will be in 30's ....maybe a 20's if he can hit his outlier.
Without Markus Howard he doesn't have a difference maker and that's going to really put the pressure on Wojo to coach up a system. Otherwise, Howard skews things in terms of how bare the shelf really is with this team.
Agree, and this concerns me for next year. Fingers crossed for Mane. We need an elite caliber athlete at the guard spot for next year.
Quote from: dinger on January 09, 2020, 07:48:16 PM
Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.
Umm.... You accused people who don't want Wojo fired of dismissing lack of NCAA success, and offered that as proof that they're extreme in their bias. I addressed your point and then you avoided it. Purposefully or not.
PS... I also amended my previous post to address your comment about "next year "
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 08:15:37 PM
Umm.... You accused people who don't want Wojo fired of dismissing lack of NCAA success, and offered that as proof that they're extreme in their bias. I addressed your point and then you avoided it. Purposefully or not.
PS... I also amended my previous post to address your comment about "next year "
No, unlike you I think there are some extreme projos on here, and I find them entirely dismissing of our postseason record. You may agree with their arguments by quoting coach speak and how the national champion lost a year before so that's just gonna stay as it is.
Re: amended post, I dont really appreciate the patronizing attitude and that kind of tone is why I only bother posting a few times a year, but yes I am aware of the roster composition and haven't given up on anything. I wouldn't be driving 600 miles in the middle of winter to go to a game in a few weeks if I had. My point is that even with a great recruiting class next yr we will probably take a step back and the extreme projo element on here will be telling us we need yet more time.
I'm obviously no extreme nojo here but honestly i kind of enjoy some of the dumb crap on here after a loss. Some strange gallows humor or whatever. Honestly I'd rather see that than some pointless attempt to talk down to everyone about your viewpoint to craft the board into your own high school debate team.
Quote from: dinger on January 09, 2020, 09:28:26 PM
No, unlike you I think there are some extreme projos on here, and I find them entirely dismissing of our postseason record. You may agree with their arguments by quoting coach speak and how the national champion lost a year before so that's just gonna stay as it is.
Re: amended post, I dont really appreciate the patronizing attitude and that kind of tone is why I only bother posting a few times a year, but yes I am aware of the roster composition and haven't given up on anything. I wouldn't be driving 600 miles in the middle of winter to go to a game in a few weeks if I had. My point is that even with a great recruiting class next yr we will probably take a step back and the extreme projo element on here will be telling us we need yet more time.
I'm obviously no extreme nojo here but honestly i kind of enjoy some of the dumb crap on here after a loss. Some strange gallows humor or whatever. Honestly I'd rather see that than some pointless attempt to talk down to everyone about your viewpoint to craft the board into your own high school debate team.
Sadly I think you honestly believe everything you said.
If you really are unbiased then my comments shouldn't bother you.
NOTHING I have posted has been excessively positive about Wojo. The most I gave him was that he was trending positive. That's about the faintest praise a person can give.
When confronted by posters who substitute their opinions for facts and deny the historical record of Wojos tenure I will point to significant events in the timeline that undermine their argument. Some people don't like that. Tough. That's why they call it harsh reality.
You say you enjoy " gallows humor "?
Well the jokes getting old. It was funny the first time I heard the Wojo sucks routine but now not so much.
Did I ruin your time on the board? Well welcome to the party.
Its no joy being a supporter of Wojo at times, but someone has to do it.
As for crafting the board to my liking....
ROTFLMFAO
I wish I had that kind of influence.
I consider myself a positive antibody activated by the boards immune system in response to an extreme infection of negativity. The infection can't be completely eliminated but hopefully it can be reduced to undetectable levels.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 09, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Fake News.
Why do you think of all the jobs Wojo was offered over his 20-years at Duke, he chose to take the MU job? Wojo walked into a really good program with some talented underclassmen in the cupboard.
Sure, Wojo has Markus, who arrived highly regarded - yet its more an indictment of Wojo that he has had Markus and hasn't figured out a way to win an NCAA tournament game - getting blown out in both, and missed the NCAA in one of Markus's three years.
Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on. Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.
I don't think he should be fired. I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach. I suspect we'll be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse.
Walking into a really good program and walking into a good team are two completely different things. The fact we are a good program helped him get things going, but the roster was the roster.
Quote from: dinger on January 09, 2020, 07:11:29 PM
Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme projos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.
Edit projo not promo
It's a crapshoot regardless of who the coach or program is. There's a reason why so many people, including actual players and coaches, journalists, etc, call it a crapshoot. Nothing to do with Wojo.
Quote from: panda on January 09, 2020, 07:57:35 PM
Crapshoot or not, good teams and good coaches win in the tournament.
And they also lose early in the tournament. Maybe you should stick to black holes,
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 11:10:21 PM
It's a crapshoot regardless of who the coach or program is. There's a reason why so many people, including actual players and coaches, journalists, etc, call it a crapshoot. Nothing to do with Wojo.
The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.
Of course it's a crap shoot. I love March Madness, but there is lots of luck and circumstance involved. I have seen lots of fan bases complain that their incoming coach has a lousy tournament record - ignoring the fact that his teams had to play high seeds every year. Loyola had a magical run, and won its first three games with late heroics. If they lose the first game, their coach is just a guy who cannot win in the tournament. A couple years ago, Northwestern got its first ever bid and won its first game. Then they lost to the eventual runner-up on a disputed call. If they win that one, Collins is the guy who not only got them to the tournament but to the Sweet Sixteen in their first appearance. But instead, they are a footnote, a brief pleasant memory.
So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet. BFD. Lots of coaches do not for a while, and losses to tournament quality teams in the regular season is not a shock or the end of the world. And you remember Dean Smith? He kept getting to the Final Four and could never win the big one. The guy was way overrated.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 09, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.
This
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 11:05:49 PM
NOTHING I have posted has been excessively positive about Wojo. The most I gave him was that he was trending positive. That's about the faintest praise a person can give.
No, I didnt say you are the extreme projo. You said "No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success"
But right before me..."So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet. BFD. " plenty more here dismiss it too.
That's fine, too. We all have opinions. But you rant about absolutes and then go off and make absolute statements as well that are wrong. Your attempt at facts can be crap too no matter how calm and measured you try to sound.
QuoteWhen confronted by posters who substitute their opinions for facts and deny the historical record of Wojos tenure I will point to significant events in the timeline that undermine their argument. Some people don't like that. Tough.
It's all arbitrary, man. Just like yelling at an internet message board isn't going to get wojo fired, this wont help his status either. I think the most important facts for wojo's employment are revenue for the bball team and athletic department (which for now is going fine) and the fact that he probably has a hefty contract buyout (contract is confidential but I'd guess its 50-75% salary payout for 5 years), plus cost of search and next coach buyout. That's a lot of money to pay for maybe a 55% chance the next guy bring in more money and does a little better. So we probably agree more than ya think, wojo isn't going anywhere now.
QuoteIt's no joy being a supporter of Wojo at times, but someone has to do it.
Poor you. It shouldnt have to be such a chore to support the coach. I chose to support the team. Coaches come and go but MU will stay.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.
They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.
They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement. Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.
As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here
Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.
Forget the tournament! Its not like we've had these great regular seasons and then were upset in the crapshoot of all crapshoots tournament. We've haven't been as good as we were in many seasons from end of O'Neill era through Buzz in the regular season. No top 25 finishes, and top 25 type teams are generally the teams that do well in the tournament. We haven't had a team that, on March 1, could reasonably be expected to make the second weekend since he got here. That is the issue. I don't see us as having one of those teams this year, either. And I don't see it next year, either.
(I will admit I have a Ewing Theory hope for next year's team.) I don't think we should cut bait this year, I'm with those who say that next season's incoming class earned him more time. But at some point we have to starting winning, and not 2025 or something.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 11:11:52 PM
And they also lose early in the tournament. Maybe you should stick to black holes,
Winning is the operative word here. I didn't say crumble and embarrass themselves.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 09, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.
LSU destroyed Oklahoma.....did they really destroy them? LSU killed Oklahoma....were they really killed? Dead bodies and all?
Sports figures have used the crap shoot terminology for this and other events for years....call it what you will...it does a nice job of encapsulating the chaotic nature of a tournament where anything can happen, including a 16 beating a 1.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.
They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.
They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement. Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.
As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here
Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.
Mike Deane, as covered on this board, got canned for lowering expectations for reaching the NCAAs. Failure once you get there isn't much better.
And all those players you mentioned...all of them are under-prepared and suffer from the impact of their coach being outmaneuvered in almost every game they play in. It is a shame that much talent is being wasted by an inflexible coach.
Quote from: Goatherder on January 09, 2020, 11:51:46 PM
Of course it's a crap shoot. I love March Madness, but there is lots of luck and circumstance involved. I have seen lots of fan bases complain that their incoming coach has a lousy tournament record - ignoring the fact that his teams had to play high seeds every year. Loyola had a magical run, and won its first three games with late heroics. If they lose the first game, their coach is just a guy who cannot win in the tournament. A couple years ago, Northwestern got its first ever bid and won its first game. Then they lost to the eventual runner-up on a disputed call. If they win that one, Collins is the guy who not only got them to the tournament but to the Sweet Sixteen in their first appearance. But instead, they are a footnote, a brief pleasant memory.
So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet. BFD. Lots of coaches do not for a while, and losses to tournament quality teams in the regular season is not a shock or the end of the world. And you remember Dean Smith? He kept getting to the Final Four and could never win the big one. The guy was way overrated.
I respectfully disagree. Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points. That is not a bad luck margin. That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin. That is not a disputed call margin. And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin.
What it is, is non-competitive. And that is the problem.
Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch. Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.
Dinger....From what I've gathered you seem fairly reasonable so I believe you are simply missing the point.
Extreme NoJos ONE piece of historically verifiable evidence that Wojo has done nothing in 5 years is his lack of success in post season play( though he did win 2 NIT games). Extreme NoJos are the ones citing that ONE piece of evidence as PROOF WoJo sucks and needs to go. The onus is on them. They opened themselves up to attack by advancing their obviously biased opinion, and now they have to defend it. I won't apologize for calling BS on their unbalanced evaluation of Wojo.
When others point out MANY historically verifiable pieces of evidence showing Wojos steadily increasing level of success, extreme NoJos dismiss ALL of that evidence out of hand and go right back to his lack of post season success. It's all they've got.
They also dismiss injuries to key players as insignificant when assessing Wojos success. Not surprising, as injuries are another thing that is historically verifiable. The funny thing is, injuries are often cited as a valid reason when better teams suffer an upset or bad loss.
The whole point being, extreme NoNos totally dismiss MANY of Wojos verifiable positive points and base their argument on ONE verifiable negative point. The people pointing out the apparent bias in the way extreme NoJos evaluate Wojo are not dismissing lack of post season success, they're dismissing the notion that ONE negative facts should COMPLETELY outweigh MANY positive facts.
Failing to support their argument based solely on the FACTS the extreme NoJos have taken the debate into the weeds, while employing similar tactics. They magnify bad losses while minimizing big wins. They magnify other coaches success while minimizing Wojos. They criticize Wojo for lack of in game adjustments, player usage, defensive philosophy, offensive philosophy , situational strategies, etc, etc, in a loss, but fail to compliment Wojo for the same things in a win. Are you starting to see a pattern here?
The reason it's fair to dismiss the above mentioned items when assessing Wojos performance to date, is because they are largely subjective and often apples to oranges.
I am not a Wojo zealot, I simply reject the extreme NoJos biased(IMHO) evaluating system when it comes to Wojo.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 10, 2020, 03:46:48 PM
Dinger....From what I've gathered you seem fairly reasonable so I believe you are simply missing the point.
Extreme NoJos ONE piece of historically verifiable evidence that Wojo has done nothing in 5 years is his lack of success in post season play( though he did win 2 NIT games). Extreme NoJos are the ones citing that ONE piece of evidence as PROOF WoJo sucks and needs to go. The onus is on them. They opened themselves up to attack by advancing their obviously biased opinion, and now they have to defend it. I won't apologize for calling BS on their unbalanced evaluation of Wojo.
When others point out MANY historically verifiable pieces of evidence showing Wojos steadily increasing level of success, extreme NoJos dismiss ALL of that evidence out of hand and go right back to his lack of post season success. It's all they've got.
They also dismiss injuries to key players as insignificant when assessing Wojos success. Not surprising, as injuries are another thing that is historically verifiable. The funny thing is, injuries are often cited as a valid reason when better teams suffer an upset or bad loss.
The whole point being, NoJos totally dismiss MANY of Wojos verifiable positive points and base their argument on ONE verifiable negative point. The people pointing out the apparent bias in the way extreme NoJos evaluate Wojo are not dismissing lack of post season success, they're dismissing the notion that ONE negative facts should COMPLETELY outweigh MANY positive facts.
Failing to support their argument based solely on the FACTS the extreme NoJos have taken the debate into the weeds, while employing similar tactics. They magnify bad losses while minimizing big wins. They magnify other coaches success while minimizing Wojos. They criticize Wojo for lack of in game adjustments, player usage, defensive philosophy, offensive philosophy , situational strategies, etc, etc, in a loss, but fail to compliment Wojo for the same things in a win. Are you starting to see a pattern here?
The reason it's fair to dismiss the above mentioned items when assessing Wojos performance to date, is because they are largely subjective and often apples to oranges.
I am not a Wojo zealot, I simply reject the extreme NoJos biased(IMHO) evaluating system when it comes to Wojo.
Lol. Some mind bending pretzel logic here. And you are a Wojo zealot. Good Lord.
WhoaJoe2020 for President.
Quote from: ManeCity83 on January 10, 2020, 04:03:56 PM
WhoaJoe2020 for President.
Chicos as VP? Oh wait, you can't serve in both offices simultaneously.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 07, 2020, 04:30:45 PM
I don't subscribe to the great coach theory. I think it's way more about the players. I guess if you classify a great coach as one who wins the tournament with lesser talent I would subscribe to that. Gard almost did it. Is he a great coach? Maybe.
Gard almost won a title????
I must have missed that.
Quote from: TSmith34 on January 10, 2020, 04:13:42 PM
Chicos as VP? Oh wait, you can't serve in both offices simultaneously.
Uh, no.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 09, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.
Yep.
16 seeds have won 1 NCAA tournament game.
1 seeds have won 517.
34 tournaments since seeding began. 21 times a #1 seed won it. 13 times one of the other 15 seeds did. Crapshoot.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 10, 2020, 01:46:01 PM
Mike Deane, as covered on this board, got canned for lowering expectations for reaching the NCAAs. Failure once you get there isn't much better.
And all those players you mentioned...all of them are under-prepared and suffer from the impact of their coach being outmaneuvered in almost every game they play in. It is a shame that much talent is being wasted by an inflexible coach.
The standard is definitely the NCAA.
You gotta get in it to win it.
I am personally not satisfied with one win in the NCAA. I want a title.
I have however accepted as I got older that you can't / don't always get what you want.
I want a title this year.
Realistically I believe I'll have to settle for far less.
If we get Mane to go with the rest of this incoming class, I want a title next year, and realistically I think there's a shot.
Guess that's why I'm hesitant to dump
Wojo. This incoming recruiting class carries much more weight with me than a couple of NCAA losses in years where we weren't likely to win it all anyway.
If this incoming class had been anything less than it already is the scale would definitely be starting to tip in favor of looking for a new head coach. But it is what it is.
This year is all about getting in the NCAA tournament and getting Koby, Symir, Theo, Greg, Jamal, and Brendan more experience in the tournament. Advancing in the tournament is a reasonable goal and would be a great bonus in so many ways. The experience gained would be invaluable and would improve Marquettes chances of making a deep run next year.
Quote from: 94Warrior on January 10, 2020, 04:14:43 PM
Gard almost won a title????
I must have missed that.
Yeah my bad, two sweet 16s in his first two years. He also had pretty good talent so I should have just stuck to my original take. Great players make coaches look great. I think Holmgren once said he knew he made a bad play call the moment it left his mouth and Favre scored a touchdown. #GreatCoaching
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 10, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
Lol. Some mind bending pretzel logic here. And you are a Wojo zealot. Good Lord.
I have stated in other posts that if Wojo had not landed this incoming recruiting class I would have been fine with looking for a new head coach. I do try to post strong rebuttals to the more extreme critics, and those who equate people calling for giving Wojo a fair assessment with those who misrepresent the historical record.
Does that strike you as zealotry?
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 10, 2020, 06:21:16 PM
I have stated in other posts that if Wojo had not landed this incoming recruiting class I would have been fine with looking for a new head coach. I do try to post strong rebuttals to the more extreme critics, and those who equate people calling for giving Wojo a fair assessment with those who misrepresent the historical record.
Does that strike you as zealotry?
You are averaging 25 posts per day since joining here. 95% of them are to prop up Wojo. That's pretty zealous. 8-)
Most posters here who aren't in Wojo's camp give their fair assessment, you just have the alternative perspective and think yours is more "fair."
He's grading out as about a "C" hire, while having "A" level investment. Those of us in the "no jo" camp would like to see that delta shrink. Both Crean and Buzz exceeded Wojo's performance, so that's the bar he's being measured against by most fans.
I see a new technique being used here to win arguments. Filibustering with the written word. That can be added to the already well used techniques of mental abuse and the refined term, "Oops", when the Team goes sideways.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 10, 2020, 06:31:23 PM
You are averaging 25 posts per day since joining here. 95% of them are to prop up Wojo. That's pretty zealous. 8-)
Most posters here who aren't in Wojo's camp give their fair assessment, you just have the alternative perspective and think yours is more "fair."
He's grading out as about a "C" hire, while having "A" level investment. Those of us in the "no jo" camp would like to see that delta shrink. Both Crean and Buzz exceeded Wojo's performance, so that's the bar he's being measured against by most fans.
Some are very short.
The long ones are solely intended as a counter to the extreme NoJos. Combined they are far more prolific than I could ever hope to be.
If you are not an extreme NoJo, who only criticizes his failures and never credits his successes, then my comments are not intended for you.
By the way, you're actually counting my posts?????? WTAF
As far as grades go, I give Wojo a C+ or a B- as an overall grade
For NCAA success I give him an F
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 10, 2020, 01:57:07 PM
I respectfully disagree. Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points. That is not a bad luck margin. That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin. That is not a disputed call margin. And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin.
What it is, is non-competitive. And that is the problem.
Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch. Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.
Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive. Good Lord.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 10, 2020, 10:26:03 PM
Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive. Good Lord.
It is not true that "they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us". From up 6 with just over 7 minutes left until just over 2 minutes left S Carolina outscored us 19-2. Three (3) of those 19 points were free throws. The other 16 were on field goals, many of them lay ups. Both of our 2 points were also on free throws. Up 23 with just over 2 minutes left the Gamecocks called off the dogs and we managed a couple of lay ups to their one (1) free throw to "cut" the final margin to 20. Total collapse, total cave in, nothing to do with "free throws at the end". More fiction from our head wojophile.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 10, 2020, 04:47:45 PM
Yep.
16 seeds have won 1 NCAA tournament game.
1 seeds have won 517.
34 tournaments since seeding began. 21 times a #1 seed won it. 13 times one of the other 15 seeds did. Crapshoot.
I'll throw out a number......223
That's the number of upsets in the NCAA tournament since 1985..... Just by 11 seeds and lower. I didn't bother looking for the number of 10 seeds or higher upsetting a higher ranked opponents in the tournament , but you get the idea......... # crapshoot
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 11, 2020, 01:04:55 AM
I'll throw out a number......223
That's the number of upsets in the NCAA tournament since 1985..... Just by 11 seeds and lower. I didn't bother looking for the number of 10 seeds or higher upsetting a higher ranked opponents in the tournament , but you get the idea......... # crapshoot
Wait, this is a chico's arguement, I mean cheeks, or hoop a loop or warrior dad. You need to keep your alter egos straight.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 10, 2020, 10:26:03 PM
Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive. Good Lord.
They also hit a 3 immediately after the 7 minute mark to make it a 9 point game and had a 85% chance to win the game. At the 9 minute mark, SC went on a 24-4 run. I agree looking at one game to judge a whole season is really dumb, but Marquette was not in this game after the 7 minute mark.
Quote from: MUDPT on January 11, 2020, 07:13:26 AM
They also hit a 3 immediately after the 7 minute mark to make it a 9 point game and had a 85% chance to win the game. At the 9 minute mark, SC went on a 24-4 run. I agree looking at one game to judge a whole season is really dumb, but Marquette was not in this game after the 7 minute mark.
Yup....but let's stop the BS that we weren't competitive in that game or simply ignore how hot they were that they damn near played for the national title two weeks later. The convenient memories that act like it was no contest the entire game to fill their rage agenda is getting old.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 08:20:13 AM
Yup....but let's stop the BS that we weren't competitive in that game or simply ignore how hot they were that they damn near played for the national title two weeks later. The convenient memories that act like it was no contest the entire game to fill their rage agenda is getting old.
The only "BS" is what you said about them pulling away from us at the end on a bunch of free throws. Verifiably false, which of course you've never admitted.
As to whether or not we were "competitive" - we were blown away by 20. Who cares if you play the first 33 minutes -6 and the last 7 minutes -14 or vice versa. A blowout is a blowout. Period.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 10, 2020, 01:57:07 PM
I respectfully disagree. Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points. That is not a bad luck margin. That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin. That is not a disputed call margin. And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin.
What it is, is non-competitive. And that is the problem.
Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch. Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.
Absurdly small sample size. What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament? Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round? Or is he the guy who one the championship. That is my point about Dean Smith. I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith. I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one." Clearly he could. Now people are arguing if the game against South Carolina was competitive or not. Stupid, stupid argument. It is one game. The score becomes irrelevant. The team was in it for most of the game and ran out of gas. Anybody who has watched a lot of college basketball knows that things can snowball and the final score is often meaningless.
I find myself agreeing with WhoaJoe here. He lays out a pretty clear and logical argument and the reply is, "lots of pretzel logic there, and you are a Wojo lover." Boy, there's some brilliant analysis! No attempt to counter the points he made, simple dismissal followed by name calling.
I will put myself in the ProJoe camp for now. Like any other of these arguments about whether to get rid of a coach/player in whatever sport, they leave open the important question, who are you going to get to replace him? Pointing to the most successful guy out there and saying "Him!" is stupid. You were never going to get that guy in the first place, you are certainly not going to get him by firing a successful coach, and comparing the guy you got to the most successful out there is a stupid idea anyway. The standards some of you put forward are prerposterous.
Making the tournament 99% of the time? Right. And when you come down from your high, let me know where you get that great grass from. With it becoming legal in more and more places, it's good to know where you can find consistent quality.
Quote from: Goatherder on January 11, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Absurdly small sample size. What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament? Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round? Or is he the guy who one the championship. That is my point about Dean Smith. I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith. I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one."
What's the record for the number of Chicos found in one thread?
The "logic" on this topic is baffling. Jay Wright didn't win big before he won big. Wojo has never won big. Therefore Wojo is Jay Wright. Substitute Tony Bennett, same false syllogism. Throw in Dean Smith - not winning "the big one" is akin to not winning the first one. And BTW, how you lose doesn't matter either. Giving up and getting blown out shortly after halftime (Murray State) or in the game's final 7 minutes (S Carolina) is no different than battling to the wire and coming up just short. Hilarious.
Quote from: Goatherder on January 11, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Absurdly small sample size. What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament? Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round? Or is he the guy who one the championship. That is my point about Dean Smith. I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith. I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one." Clearly he could. Now people are arguing if the game against South Carolina was competitive or not. Stupid, stupid argument. It is one game. The score becomes irrelevant. The team was in it for most of the game and ran out of gas. Anybody who has watched a lot of college basketball knows that things can snowball and the final score is often meaningless.
I find myself agreeing with WhoaJoe here. He lays out a pretty clear and logical argument and the reply is, "lots of pretzel logic there, and you are a Wojo lover." Boy, there's some brilliant analysis! No attempt to counter the points he made, simple dismissal followed by name calling.
I will put myself in the ProJoe camp for now. Like any other of these arguments about whether to get rid of a coach/player in whatever sport, they leave open the important question, who are you going to get to replace him? Pointing to the most successful guy out there and saying "Him!" is stupid. You were never going to get that guy in the first place, you are certainly not going to get him by firing a successful coach, and comparing the guy you got to the most successful out there is a stupid idea anyway. The standards some of you put forward are prerposterous.
Making the tournament 99% of the time? Right. And when you come down from your high, let me know where you get that great grass from. With it becoming legal in more and more places, it's good to know where you can find consistent quality.
Okay. So it was one game. Last year we needed to win just 1 out of our last 4 games to clinch sole Big East title. We lost all 4, included to Number 100 Georgetown at home in the last game of the year.
Wojo has essentially the worst track record at MU since Bob Dukiet.
He's got zero conference championships, zero NCAA wins through his first 5 years, and this likely will become the 6th season of the same performance. Next season will probably become the 7th.
The argument of "who will we get to replace him" is lame. MU is a really good job in college hoops. A Top 20 caliber job. Would hiring someone else who doesn't win a conference title or NCAA game for 5 more years be any worse? We know what we have in Wojo. He's a mediocre coach. Expecting anything more from him is fools gold.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 11, 2020, 11:04:07 AM
Okay. So it was one game. Last year we needed to win just 1 out of our last 4 games to clinch sole Big East title. We lost all 4, included to Number 100 Georgetown at home in the last game of the year.
Wojo has essentially the worst track record at MU since Bob Dukiet.
He's got zero conference championships, zero NCAA wins through his first 5 years, and this likely will become the 6th season of the same performance. Next season will probably become the 7th.
The argument of "who will we get to replace him" is lame. MU is a really good job in college hoops. A Top 20 caliber job. Would hiring someone else who doesn't win a conference title or NCAA game for 5 more years be any worse? We know what we have in Wojo. He's a mediocre coach. Expecting anything more from him is fools gold.
False, stop repeating your Dukiet lies. Beyond ridiculous.
Quote from: hairy worthen on January 11, 2020, 06:22:52 AM
Wait, this is a chico's arguement, I mean cheeks, or hoop a loop or warrior dad. You need to keep your alter egos straight.
This is awesome, I actually hope more people continue to do this to you guys...entertaining as hell. Yes, God forbid there are many people that have similar views as mine....that cannot be possible. LOL
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 10, 2020, 07:20:11 PM
Some are very short.
The long ones are solely intended as a counter to the extreme NoJos. Combined they are far more prolific than I could ever hope to be.
If you are not an extreme NoJo, who only criticizes his failures and never credits his successes, then my comments are not intended for you.
By the way, you're actually counting my posts?????? WTAF
As far as grades go, I give Wojo a C+ or a B- as an overall grade
For NCAA success I give him an F
Overall grade B
Three straight post season bids. 2nd place finish last year. Have beaten excellent teams. Recruiting continues to get better. All American. Solid citizens. Consistency has been a challenge.
NCAA success is partly about getting there, so cannot give a F.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2020, 10:45:52 AM
What's the record for the number of Chicos found in one thread?
The "logic" on this topic is baffling. Jay Wright didn't win big before he won big. Wojo has never won big. Therefore Wojo is Jay Wright. Substitute Tony Bennett, same false syllogism. Throw in Dean Smith - not winning "the big one" is akin to not winning the first one. And BTW, how you lose doesn't matter either. Giving up and getting blown out shortly after halftime (Murray State) or in the game's final 7 minutes (S Carolina) is no different than battling to the wire and coming up just short. Hilarious.
No one can be this smart.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 11, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
No one can be this smart.
Lenny is that smart...just ask him.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 11:15:39 AM
This is awesome, I actually hope more people continue to do this to you guys...entertaining as hell. Yes, God forbid there are many people that have similar views as mine....that cannot be possible. LOL
You are entertaining I will say that. I especially like the way you pretend to PM your alter ego and then answer on a thread to make us believe you. Well done.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 11:12:11 AM
False, stop repeating your Dukiet lies. Beyond ridiculous.
Lol. Are you by chance masochistic? Because you sure do get slapped around here by everyone other than your 5 alter ego accounts.
Even your boy Crean massively outperformed Wojo, coming into the program while we were mis-major status in C-USA with the Old Gym to recruit to. 🤦🏼♂️
Quote from: hairy worthen on January 11, 2020, 11:29:50 AM
You are entertaining I will say that. I especially like the way you pretend to PM your alter ego and then answer on a thread to make us believe you. Well done.
Like I said, this is 100% provable by the moderators. I'd ask them to do so, but I cannot make them. That's why I'm find it funny because I suspect they are in on this one or have no desire to set the record straight. Whatever, fine by me....The fact that it gets you guys all wound up and I have absolutely nothing to do with it makes me laugh. You guys chase your tails at a lot of people that you think are someone and they are not. I find that absolutely hilarious.
In about a month I will be under for a surgery, it would be funny if these guys are posting during that time and I upload the post op docs showing the timing....the collective WTF on some of your faces would be priceless. I won't announce which day...this could be fun to watch the mea culpas.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 11, 2020, 11:34:53 AM
Lol. Are you by chance masochistic? Because you sure do get slapped around here by everyone other than your 5 alter ego accounts.
Even your boy Crean massively outperformed Wojo, coming into the program while we were mis-major status in C-USA with the Old Gym to recruit to. 🤦🏼♂️
You lost all credibility with your Hank Raymond's nonsense last week. And I'm only posting under this username, mods can verify that if they wish...that's up to them. So you would be wrong...again.
How's Houston....lot's of tough weather in the state yesterday. I'll be there in late February for a wedding.
Quote from: Goatherder on January 11, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Absurdly small sample size. What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament? Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round? Or is he the guy who one the championship. That is my point about Dean Smith. I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith. I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one." Clearly he could. Now people are arguing if the game against South Carolina was competitive or not. Stupid, stupid argument. It is one game. The score becomes irrelevant. The team was in it for most of the game and ran out of gas. Anybody who has watched a lot of college basketball knows that things can snowball and the final score is often meaningless.
I find myself agreeing with WhoaJoe here. He lays out a pretty clear and logical argument and the reply is, "lots of pretzel logic there, and you are a Wojo lover." Boy, there's some brilliant analysis! No attempt to counter the points he made, simple dismissal followed by name calling.
I will put myself in the ProJoe camp for now. Like any other of these arguments about whether to get rid of a coach/player in whatever sport, they leave open the important question, who are you going to get to replace him? Pointing to the most successful guy out there and saying "Him!" is stupid. You were never going to get that guy in the first place, you are certainly not going to get him by firing a successful coach, and comparing the guy you got to the most successful out there is a stupid idea anyway. The standards some of you put forward are prerposterous.
Making the tournament 99% of the time? Right. And when you come down from your high, let me know where you get that great grass from. With it becoming legal in more and more places, it's good to know where you can find consistent quality.
It is a small sample size. You are correct. But when combined with the tendency over the last three years for there to be blowout losses to teams where that should not happen, the end of season losses to bad teams in 2018(?) that likely kept us out of the NCAAs, and the same collapse last year that kept us from winning the BE title - all of a sudden the sample size is bigger and much more relevant.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 11:21:26 AM
Overall grade B
Three straight post season bids. 2nd place finish last year. Have beaten excellent teams. Recruiting continues to get better. All American. Solid citizens. Consistency has been a challenge.
NCAA success is partly about getting there, so cannot give a F.
Did I really need to specifically say success once in the NCAA tournament ?
Anyone else feel at least a little better about the Murray State game after seeing what Ja Morant has done to some of these NBA guys this year? I feel like a lot of people harp on the seed or the fact that it wasn't a big name school, but that kid is a PROBLEM.
Obviously their team beat our team, but it's pretty tough luck to get matched up against the #2 pick in the first round
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 10, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
Lol. Some mind bending pretzel logic here. And you are a Wojo zealot. Good Lord.
Must feel like looking into a mirror. The same, except the scars are on the other side.
Quote from: Warrior Code on January 11, 2020, 01:24:59 PM
Anyone else feel at least a little better about the Murray State game after seeing what Ja Morant has done to some of these NBA guys this year? I feel like a lot of people harp on the seed or the fact that it wasn't a big name school, but that kid is a PROBLEM.
Obviously their team beat our team, but it's pretty tough luck to get matched up against the #2 pick in the first round
He's a force and a horrible matchup for us. There were many that said Murray State, FSU and a few others were not good for our style. Who you play matters. People over reach with the seed number, i5 is the style of play that matters. UCLA Princeton. LMU vs Michigan. FGCU vs Georgetown. Etc, etc.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 11, 2020, 01:35:28 PM
Must feel like looking into a mirror. The same, except the scars are on the other side.
Not at all. No scars here. Only ones with scars are those who went all in on Wojo Year 1, and continue to have to contort their logic to justify where we are 6 years later.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 11, 2020, 11:04:07 AM
Okay. So it was one game. Last year we needed to win just 1 out of our last 4 games to clinch sole Big East title. We lost all 4, included to Number 100 Georgetown at home in the last game of the year.
Wojo has essentially the worst track record at MU since Bob Dukiet.
He's got zero conference championships, zero NCAA wins through his first 5 years, and this likely will become the 6th season of the same performance. Next season will probably become the 7th.
The argument of "who will we get to replace him" is lame. MU is a really good job in college hoops. A Top 20 caliber job. Would hiring someone else who doesn't win a conference title or NCAA game for 5 more years be any worse? We know what we have in Wojo. He's a mediocre coach. Expecting anything more from him is fools gold.
Preach.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 11, 2020, 02:42:11 PM
Not at all. No scars here. Only ones with scars are those who went all in on Wojo Year 1, and continue to have to contort their logic to justify where we are 6 years later.
So they should have tepidly supported him in year one?
I guess you're right.....After five losing seasons and no tournament appearances, as well as no enjoyable players to watch, mid-major level recruiting, and a dirty program.............
I have to agree with you, it's time for Wojo to go........to a fan base that shows just a little appreciation for the good he has done.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 11, 2020, 04:24:39 PM
So they should have tepidly supported him in year one?
I guess you're right.....After five losing seasons and no tournament appearances, as well as no enjoyable players to watch, mid-major level recruiting, and a dirty program.............
I have to agree with you, it's time for Wojo to go........to a fan base that shows just a little appreciation for the good he has done.
A win win for everyone. Hausers were smart.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 11, 2020, 01:04:55 AM
I'll throw out a number......223
That's the number of upsets in the NCAA tournament since 1985..... Just by 11 seeds and lower. I didn't bother looking for the number of 10 seeds or higher upsetting a higher ranked opponents in the tournament , but you get the idea......... # crapshoot
Less than 10%. This is one of the strongest anti-crapshoot post I've seen.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 11, 2020, 02:42:11 PM
Not at all. No scars here. Only ones with scars are those who went all in on Wojo Year 1, and continue to have to contort their logic to justify where we are 6 years later.
Your ability to completely miss a point may be the highest on all of Scoop.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 08, 2020, 09:26:24 AM
Wojo didn't wait. Coach K waited until advising him to leave.
I believe Coach K knows Wojo's image as some floor slapping maniac is a misnomer (if that's the right word) and advised him to take a cushy Marquette gig with massive resources. I'm not saying it was bad advice, either. I believe K knows Wojo is about an inch deep and needed a program to prop him up rather than the other way around.
My problem with Wojo is I don't think he's doing much coaching and he's certainly not a leader. With Buzz and Crean (as irritating as he was and is) you knew they were into the nitty gritty.
Wojo is very likable...I like him... but he is totally miscast as a head coach.
Damn dude. This has got to be one of the most piercing criticisms that I have ever read of Wojo. Almost makes me feel bad for him.
(Agree on the leadership part)
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 01:52:30 PM
He's a force and a horrible matchup for us.
But not for Jacksonville State.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 11, 2020, 05:28:38 PM
Less than 10%. This is one of the strongest anti-crapshoot post I've seen.
There have been 80 NCAA tournaments since 1939. Not counting vacated titles, 8 programs have won 45 of them.
In other words, 2% of the current D1 programs have won 56% of the tournaments.
There are also only 35 programs that have won an NCAA tournament.
In other words, only 10% of all current D1 programs have won all 80 tournaments.
That doesn't sound too random to me either.
Quote from: MDMU04 on January 11, 2020, 08:18:29 PM
There have been 80 NCAA tournaments since 1939. Not counting vacated titles, 8 programs have won 45 of them.
In other words, 2% of the current D1 programs have won 56% of the tournaments.
There are also only 35 programs that have won an NCAA tournament.
In other words, only 10% of all current D1 programs have won all 80 tournaments.
That doesn't sound too random to me either.
No, no, no!!! It's all match ups! Al and Buzz didn't win games because they were good - they were lucky and got good match ups. Crean got really lucky one year out of nine but mostly rolled snake eyes. KO got lucky once, too. The rest? Bupkus.
Al got lucky ??? Maybe because he pioneered the recruit game. Wojo couldnt shine al's shoes as a coach.
Wojohsnomojoanditstimetogojo
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 11, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
Al got lucky ??? Maybe because he pioneered the recruit game. Wojo couldnt shine al's shoes as a coach.
Wojohsnomojoanditstimetogojo
Sarcasm, Deano.
Ok i was gonna say. Al was a genius in the recruiting game. One could say even a social justice warrior for the time. Wojo is a mid major level recruiting talent and sub par x's and o's game coach.
We must move on our we are uwm south
Quote from: Eldon on January 11, 2020, 07:55:48 PM
Damn dude. This has got to be one of the most piercing criticisms that I have ever read of Wojo. Almost makes me feel bad for him.
(Agree on the leadership part)
Ah, yeah. Spot on. And who the f*** is this WhoaJoe guy? Cheeks' bro? Father in law?
Quote from: Cheeks on January 11, 2020, 11:39:09 AM
Like I said, this is 100% provable by the moderators. I'd ask them to do so, but I cannot make them. That's why I'm find it funny because I suspect they are in on this one or have no desire to set the record straight. Whatever, fine by me....The fact that it gets you guys all wound up and I have absolutely nothing to do with it makes me laugh. You guys chase your tails at a lot of people that you think are someone and they are not. I find that absolutely hilarious.
In about a month I will be under for a surgery, it would be funny if these guys are posting during that time and I upload the post op docs showing the timing....the collective WTF on some of your faces would be priceless. I won't announce which day...this could be fun to watch the mea culpas.
What type of surgery are you having?
Quote from: MDMU04 on January 11, 2020, 08:18:29 PM
There have been 80 NCAA tournaments since 1939. Not counting vacated titles, 8 programs have won 45 of them.
In other words, 2% of the current D1 programs have won 56% of the tournaments.
There are also only 35 programs that have won an NCAA tournament.
In other words, only 10% of all current D1 programs have won all 80 tournaments.
That doesn't sound too random to me either.
Yep. Crapshoot = Bullsh*t!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 10, 2020, 11:15:42 PM
It is not true that "they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us". From up 6 with just over 7 minutes left until just over 2 minutes left S Carolina outscored us 19-2. Three (3) of those 19 points were free throws. The other 16 were on field goals, many of them lay ups. Both of our 2 points were also on free throws. Up 23 with just over 2 minutes left the Gamecocks called off the dogs and we managed a couple of lay ups to their one (1) free throw to "cut" the final margin to 20. Total collapse, total cave in, nothing to do with "free throws at the end". More fiction from our head wojophile.
Thank you. True this.
Quote from: Warrior Code on January 11, 2020, 01:24:59 PM
Anyone else feel at least a little better about the Murray State game after seeing what Ja Morant has done to some of these NBA guys this year? I feel like a lot of people harp on the seed or the fact that it wasn't a big name school, but that kid is a PROBLEM.
Obviously their team beat our team, but it's pretty tough luck to get matched up against the #2 pick in the first round
But THEIR team got blown out in the next round by FSU...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2020, 09:19:10 PM
Sarcasm, Deano.
We all knew that, Lenny. Well.... at least all but one ::)
Quote from: Keithtisbarf on January 11, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
What type of surgery are you having?
Why are you obsessed with other people's medical circumstances?
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2020, 02:50:51 PM
Why are you obsessed with other people's medical circumstances?
He's not having surgery.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 11, 2020, 11:27:05 PM
Yep. Crapshoot = Bullsh*t!
You obviously don't understand the game of craps that the term crapshoot is derived from.
In craps certain combinations of the two die being rolled have very LOW odds of winning.. These LOW odds rolls are those where the combinations of the two die rolled add up to 2 and twelve
Think of these LOW odds rolls as the 16 seeds in the NCAA tournament field.
Other rolls have HIGHER odds of winning. These are, in ascending order: Combinations of the two die rolled that add up to 3 and 11, then combinations that add up to 4 and 10 then combinations that add up to 5 and 9, and finally combinations that add up to 6 and 8.
Think of these HIGHER odds rolls as the rest of the NCAA tournament field in ascending order from the 15 seed up through to the 2 seed
Finally there are the rolls that have the HIGHEST odds of winning. Combinations of the two die that add up to seven.
Think of these HIGHEST odds rolls as 1 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
If the tournament WASN'T a crapshoot the 1 seeds would ALWAYS win, not just most of the time, but they don't. Just like seven doesn't ALWAYS win in craps, just most of the time.
Do you see why calling the NCAA tournament a crapshoot is a very apt analogy?
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 03:11:39 PM
You obviously don't understand the game of craps that the term crapshoot is derived from.
In craps certain combinations of the two die being rolled have very LOW odds of winning.. These LOW odds rolls are those where the combinations of the two die rolled add up to 2 and twelve
Think of these LOW odds rolls as the 16 seeds in the NCAA tournament field.
Other rolls have HIGHER odds of winning. These are, in ascending order: Combinations of the two die rolled that add up to 3 and 11, then combinations that add up to 4 and 10 then combinations that add up to 5 and 9, and finally combinations that add up to 6 and 8.
Think of these HIGHER odds rolls as the rest of the NCAA tournament field in ascending order from the 15 seed up through to the 2 seed
Finally there are the rolls that have the HIGHEST odds of winning. Combinations of the two die that add up to seven.
Think of these HIGHEST odds rolls as 1 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
If the tournament WASN'T a crapshoot the 1 seeds would ALWAYS win, not just most of the time, but they don't. Just like seven doesn't ALWAYS win in craps, just most of the time.
Do you see why calling the NCAA tournament a crapshoot is a very apt analogy?
You sure know the game of craps. I'm not old enough to gamble yet, but thanks for the insight
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 03:11:39 PM
You obviously don't understand the game of craps that the term crapshoot is derived from.
In craps certain combinations of the two die being rolled have very LOW odds of winning.. These LOW odds rolls are those where the combinations of the two die rolled add up to 2 and twelve
Think of these LOW odds rolls as the 16 seeds in the NCAA tournament field.
Other rolls have HIGHER odds of winning. These are, in ascending order: Combinations of the two die rolled that add up to 3 and 11, then combinations that add up to 4 and 10 then combinations that add up to 5 and 9, and finally combinations that add up to 6 and 8.
Think of these HIGHER odds rolls as the rest of the NCAA tournament field in ascending order from the 15 seed up through to the 2 seed
Finally there are the rolls that have the HIGHEST odds of winning. Combinations of the two die that add up to seven.
Think of these HIGHEST odds rolls as 1 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
If the tournament WASN'T a crapshoot the 1 seeds would ALWAYS win, not just most of the time, but they don't. Just like seven doesn't ALWAYS win in craps, just most of the time.
Do you see why calling the NCAA tournament a crapshoot is a very apt analogy?
So you're equating something that is based on chance and rules of mathematical probably to the expected outcome of the NCAA Tournament?
Now I understand.
You fail to take into account what many of us have been saying. COACHING MATTERS. Effort matters. Desire matters.
None of these things are in your analogy and, sadly, are frequently missing from MU the last few seasons.
Quote from: Keithtisbarf on January 11, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
What type of surgery are you having?
That's a personal matter.
Quote from: Keithtisbarf on January 12, 2020, 03:04:07 PM
He's not having surgery.
I'm not? LOL. Well cool, I'll save some
money then since my deductible and insurance won't cover it entirely.
Uhm yes...I'm having surgery.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 12, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
So you're equating something that is based on chance and rules of mathematical probably to the expected outcome of the NCAA Tournament?
Now I understand.
You fail to take into account what many of us have been saying. COACHING MATTERS. Effort matters. Desire matters.
None of these things are in your analogy and, sadly, are frequently missing from MU the last few seasons.
Luck also matters. If it was simply coaching and desire, Duke wouldn't lose to Lehigh and Mercer, Virginia wouldn't lose to UMBC, and on and on and on.
Or did Coach K and Tony Bennett and Izzo and McGuire and Buzz and on and on become morons those days they lost to teams they should have not lost to?
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 03:11:39 PM
You obviously don't understand the game of craps that the term crapshoot is derived from.
In craps certain combinations of the two die being rolled have very LOW odds of winning.. These LOW odds rolls are those where the combinations of the two die rolled add up to 2 and twelve
Think of these LOW odds rolls as the 16 seeds in the NCAA tournament field.
Other rolls have HIGHER odds of winning. These are, in ascending order: Combinations of the two die rolled that add up to 3 and 11, then combinations that add up to 4 and 10 then combinations that add up to 5 and 9, and finally combinations that add up to 6 and 8.
Think of these HIGHER odds rolls as the rest of the NCAA tournament field in ascending order from the 15 seed up through to the 2 seed
Finally there are the rolls that have the HIGHEST odds of winning. Combinations of the two die that add up to seven.
Think of these HIGHEST odds rolls as 1 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
If the tournament WASN'T a crapshoot the 1 seeds would ALWAYS win, not just most of the time, but they don't. Just like seven doesn't ALWAYS win in craps, just most of the time.
Do you see why calling the NCAA tournament a crapshoot is a very apt analogy?
My fellow MU fan, the NCAA tourney is most definitely not a "crapshoot". The people who push the "crapshoot" idea don't even think its a true crapshoot. Just look at their posts. It's a "figure of term" to them.
The results of the NCAA tournament over the decades prove the point it is the farthest thing from a crapshoot.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 12, 2020, 06:45:32 PM
My fellow MU fan, the NCAA tourney is most definitely not a "crapshoot". The people who push the "crapshoot" idea don't even think its a true crapshoot. Just look at their posts. It's a "figure of term" to them.
The results of the NCAA tournament over the decades prove the point it is the farthest thing from a crapshoot.
Tom Izzo
Coach K
Jay Wright
Mark Few
Etc etc etc
It's a term of art, we have said this already. It is not literally a crapshoot, just as Murray State didn't literally kill members of the Marquette basketball team, just as Oregon didn't destroy Wisconsin, but apparently this is hard for you. It is called a crapshoot for a reason.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 03:11:39 PM
You obviously don't understand the game of craps that the term crapshoot is derived from.
In craps certain combinations of the two die being rolled have very LOW odds of winning.. These LOW odds rolls are those where the combinations of the two die rolled add up to 2 and twelve
Think of these LOW odds rolls as the 16 seeds in the NCAA tournament field.
Other rolls have HIGHER odds of winning. These are, in ascending order: Combinations of the two die rolled that add up to 3 and 11, then combinations that add up to 4 and 10 then combinations that add up to 5 and 9, and finally combinations that add up to 6 and 8.
Think of these HIGHER odds rolls as the rest of the NCAA tournament field in ascending order from the 15 seed up through to the 2 seed
Finally there are the rolls that have the HIGHEST odds of winning. Combinations of the two die that add up to seven.
Think of these HIGHEST odds rolls as 1 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
If the tournament WASN'T a crapshoot the 1 seeds would ALWAYS win, not just most of the time, but they don't. Just like seven doesn't ALWAYS win in craps, just most of the time.
Do you see why calling the NCAA tournament a crapshoot is a very apt analogy?
After reading this post again, I think you may have shot down the "crapshoot" argument better than anyone before. THANK YOU!
Quote from: Cheeks on January 12, 2020, 06:53:31 PM
Tom Izzo
Coach K
Jay Wright
Mark Few
Etc etc etc
It's a term of art, we have said this already. It is not literally a crapshoot, just as Murray State didn't literally kill members of the Marquette basketball team, just as Oregon didn't destroy Wisconsin, but apparently this is hard for you. It is called a crapshoot for a reason.
Okay. Show me the proof. WhoaJoe gave us the factual data that is not a crapshoot. What is your data?
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 12, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
Okay. Show me the proof. WhoaJoe gave us the factual data that is not a crapshoot. What is your data?
How does one prove a term of art? That's the whole point of using it.
When a team "kills" another team are there dead bodies? Nope. It's a term of art to make an analogy.
When coaches, announcers, players, etc say it is a crapshoot it is not literally a crapshoot, but the analogy made is how often the crazy happens compared to other sports. I provided a study last year that Fox (I think) has done that shows what sporting events the top seeds win the most vs the fewest. The NBA is the most predictable. The NCAA men's tournament was the least...which is why it earns the tag it does as a crapshoot.
Now, if you and Lenny and a few others want to file a suit or petition that all these coaches, announcers, players, journalists that use the term are perpoa fraud on the American people...have a go. Pleas add "frozen tundra" while you are at since tundra is already frozen, and thus a false statement. You can get a 2 for 1 in there.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 12, 2020, 07:09:27 PM
How does one prove a term of art? That's the whole point of using it.
When a team "kills" another team are there dead bodies? Nope. It's a term of art to make an analogy.
When coaches, announcers, players, etc say it is a crapshoot it is not literally a crapshoot, but the analogy made is how often the crazy happens compared to other sports. I provided a study last year that Fox (I think) has done that shows what sporting events the top seeds win the most vs the fewest. The NBA is the most predictable. The NCAA men's tournament was the least...which is why it earns the tag it does as a crapshoot.
Now, if you and Lenny and a few others want to file a suit or petition that all these coaches, announcers, players, journalists that use the term are perpoa fraud on the American people...have a go. Pleas add "frozen tundra" while you are at since tundra is already frozen, and thus a false statement. You can get a 2 for 1 in there.
Why dont you take a scoop break pal.. just endless rambling. And what hell were those gifs?? Pandas doing doggy style? Just what in the fuk
Quote from: Cheeks on January 12, 2020, 07:09:27 PM
How does one prove a term of art? That's the whole point of using it.
When a team "kills" another team are there dead bodies? Nope. It's a term of art to make an analogy.
When coaches, announcers, players, etc say it is a crapshoot it is not literally a crapshoot, but the analogy made is how often the crazy happens compared to other sports. I provided a study last year that Fox (I think) has done that shows what sporting events the top seeds win the most vs the fewest. The NBA is the most predictable. The NCAA men's tournament was the least...which is why it earns the tag it does as a crapshoot.
Now, if you and Lenny and a few others want to file a suit or petition that all these coaches, announcers, players, journalists that use the term are perpoa fraud on the American people...have a go. Pleas add "frozen tundra" while you are at since tundra is already frozen, and thus a false statement. You can get a 2 for 1 in there.
Thank you. Glad this issue has been put to bed. Next issue.
Quote from: Johnny B on January 12, 2020, 07:15:55 PM
Why dont you take a scoop break pal.. just endless rambling. And what hell were those gifs?? Pandas doing doggy style? Just what in the fuk
He's a deranged person
Quote from: Cheeks on January 12, 2020, 06:39:37 PM
Luck also matters. If it was simply coaching and desire, Duke wouldn't lose to Lehigh and Mercer, Virginia wouldn't lose to UMBC, and on and on and on.
Or did Coach K and Tony Bennett and Izzo and McGuire and Buzz and on and on become morons those days they lost to teams they should have not lost to?
True, Cheeks. But the post I replied to made it sounds like March Madness was craps. And craps is math, nothing else.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 12, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
So you're equating something that is based on chance and rules of mathematical probably to the expected outcome of the NCAA Tournament?
Now I understand.
You fail to take into account what many of us have been saying. COACHING MATTERS. Effort matters. Desire matters.
None of these things are in your analogy and, sadly, are frequently missing from MU the last few seasons.
Yes I am. Its actually a very good analogy. Just like there are many variables that make the outcome of a dice roll unpredictable, there are many variables in basketball that make the outcome unpredictable. Hence all the upsets and busted brackets. Coaching is just another variable as are effort and desire. Lucky bounces in basketball, like lucky rolls in dice, a basketball player being hot from three one game, a dice roller being on a hot streak, a basketball team getting a big lead and then collapsing, a dice roller getting up big and then losing it all. Though they're not exactly the same, obviously, there are enough similarities and variables to make the statement that the NCAA tournament is a crapshoot more than reasonable.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 07:27:43 PM
Yes I am. Its actually a very good analogy. Just like there are many variables that make the outcome of a dice roll unpredictable, there are many variables in basketball that make the outcome unpredictable. Hence all the upsets and busted brackets. Coaching is just another variable as are effort and desire. Lucky bounces in basketball, like lucky rolls in dice, a basketball player being hot from three one game, a dice roller being on a hot streak, a basketball team getting a big lead and then collapsing, a dice roller getting up big and then losing it all. Though they're not exactly the same, obviously, there are enough similarities and variables to make the statement that the NCAA tournament is a crapshoot more than reasonable.
To repost a comment from another:
That must be why there's an even distribution of NCAA Championships across 1 to 16 seeds.
The variables you mention can come into play over the short term. Over longer periods of time, your claimed variables diminish in impact. Over long periods, the characteristics I highlighted win out.
And regarding Wojo, we now have enough data points to determine that he is not a good coach. Great recruiter. Crap coach.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 12, 2020, 07:27:43 PM
Yes I am. Its actually a very good analogy. Just like there are many variables that make the outcome of a dice roll unpredictable, there are many variables in basketball that make the outcome unpredictable. Hence all the upsets and busted brackets. Coaching is just another variable as are effort and desire. Lucky bounces in basketball, like lucky rolls in dice, a basketball player being hot from three one game, a dice roller being on a hot streak, a basketball team getting a big lead and then collapsing, a dice roller getting up big and then losing it all. Though they're not exactly the same, obviously, there are enough similarities and variables to make the statement that the NCAA tournament is a crapshoot more than reasonable.
Craps is an ok analogy. Theres better examples of probability. The problem with craps that they are dice, you cant do anything to change the likelihood of success.
You talked about hannibal lecter types in another thread. Sure one in a bajillion people end up serial killers, and one in a bajillion people will end up eaten by them. Does that mean we should just dismiss it as bad luck? Does bad odds make any of the victims feel better?
Look at the titans. Does anyone really think the titans would beat the ravens by 16 10 out of 10 times? Is that supposed to make ravens fans feel any better? Could the ravens have done things differently to improve their odds?
There are things you can do to improve your odds (ie never smoking) but one can still get lung cancer. Factors beyond your control. Doesnt make anyone feel better about any of it.
Yeah probability is involved here but that's why I hate the crapshoot analogy. It ignores the human element. But not coach is going to be as long winded as us about this stuff so they just call it that.
Quote from: dinger on January 12, 2020, 10:25:27 PM
Craps is an ok analogy. Theres better examples of probability. The problem with craps that they are dice, you cant do anything to change the likelihood of success.
You talked about hannibal lecter types in another thread. Sure one in a bajillion people end up serial killers, and one in a bajillion people will end up eaten by them. Does that mean we should just dismiss it as bad luck? Does bad odds make any of the victims feel better?
Look at the titans. Does anyone really think the titans would beat the ravens by 16 10 out of 10 times? Is that supposed to make ravens fans feel any better? Could the ravens have done things differently to improve their odds?
There are things you can do to improve your odds (ie never smoking) but one can still get lung cancer. Factors beyond your control. Doesnt make anyone feel better about any of it.
Yeah probability is involved here but that's why I hate the crapshoot analogy. It ignores the human element. But not coach is going to be as long winded as us about this stuff so they just call it that.
Believe me, I totally get what you're saying.
A lot of times, before coaches or analysts say "it's a crapshoot", they will preface their statement by pointing out the fact that ALL of the teams that get to the tournament are good, as a way to suggest that if a higher seed loses to a lower seed people shouldn't be too surprised. They usually go on to point to some variable, like a made three by the other team, or an unlucky bounce, an injury to a key player, a tough call by the refs, etc, etc. Basically bad luck that no one has any control over.
Is calling it a crapshoot a cop out to minimize the embarrassment of a higher seed losing to a lower seed? Maybe.
Is it a way to show respect to the lower seed who beat the higher seed? Definitely.
By advancing the proposition that the teams in the tournament are basically equals, it lends some credibility to the statement that every game in the tournament is a crapshoot.
In some match ups the crapshoot statement is fairly accurate.
Like Marquette vs Murray St.
In some match ups the crapshoot statement might be considered a joke.
Like Virginia vs MBC
I'm guessing after that game Bennett referred to the tournament as a " crapshoot " LOL